Unique Punishments

[Auroraâ„¢]

I thought the topic was unique punishments, not cruel tortures.

playing loud noise? sounds like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay

How about considering an alternative punishment - community service?

1. Tank/Heal Slave new players for X hours
2. Give away personal equipments/zenies to new players
3. Guiding a new player in RO - do some quests (hunt quest items), show new players certain important NPCs
4. Helping GMs under supervision - bot patrol, event management, etc...

Research shows that alternative punishment is more successful at cultivating a sense of ethical value in the reformed perpetrators to prevent a repeat offence.

The problem with those things, is, you can't force them to do any of that. If they are to be jailed or banned, that's a type of punishment that's forced upon them, and can't be undone until (if it's not a definitive ban) the time given is up.

Also, I don't mean to spark up an old conversation, but @Mewi: No offense, but, not everyone follows the same code of ethics as you do. I think that's proven by the many different opinions and thoughts of the people that have, not only here, but responded to all of the other topics of discussion on this forum. What you may think corrupt, could be an act of justice to someone else. I can understand where you're coming from, and I'm sure we all understand why you are so against corruption (what with that whole drama with that one server, I can't remember which topic it was >_O) but we've all been there, or at least we all will be. I know I have, and I can't stand corruption, but I can open my mind to thoughts and workings of other people. There isn't a certain "GM Code" because everyone has a different idea or opinion about a "GM Code."

For example, some people say it's wrong for a GM to play as a legit player, some don't. Some believe that having more than one GM on your team is just begging for abuse, some believe it's better that way. Some believe GMs shouldn't have commands such as @item, some believe that it's harmless when the right precautions are taken. There are just so many different views and beliefs, you can't place a certain tag on what's right and wrong to you, and say that everyone else should believe it too. I do understand that you're going to stand up for what you believe, I do it too, I just don't think you can really try and force what you believe on other people. To me, that's wrong.

Calling corruption on every little thing you don't personally agree with is almost as bad as corruption itself, in my own opinion. Plus, the only things that I can honestly see as "corrupt" or "abusive" was a couple of things mentioned in Mrrgle's original post, out of the suggestions mentioned here.

Sorry for the lecture, just felt like it needed to be said. Dx Don't mean to be off-topic, if I am. ~

Anyways, I agree with a couple of people here, who say the regular punishments are good enough. I, myself, when giving out a permanent ban, take away forum rights and any other rights to our server. Though it's awesome some people are coming up with interesting ideas and views of how to punish someone, going off of what Poki has already stated, you can't force someone to learn their lesson, and I really don't think changing up how it's done will make any real difference. That's my own personal opinion, though.

[Mewi]

I thought the topic was unique punishments, not cruel tortures.

playing loud noise? sounds like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay

How about considering an alternative punishment - community service?

1. Tank/Heal Slave new players for X hours
2. Give away personal equipments/zenies to new players
3. Guiding a new player in RO - do some quests (hunt quest items), show new players certain important NPCs
4. Helping GMs under supervision - bot patrol, event management, etc...

Research shows that alternative punishment is more successful at cultivating a sense of ethical value in the reformed perpetrators to prevent a repeat offence.

The problem with those things, is, you can't force them to do any of that. If they are to be jailed or banned, that's a type of punishment that's forced upon them, and can't be undone until (if it's not a definitive ban) the time given is up.

Also, I don't mean to spark up an old conversation, but @Mewi: No offense, but, not everyone follows the same code of ethics as you do. I think that's proven by the many different opinions and thoughts of the people that have, not only here, but responded to all of the other topics of discussion on this forum. What you may think corrupt, could be an act of justice to someone else. I can understand where you're coming from, and I'm sure we all understand why you are so against corruption (what with that whole drama with that one server, I can't remember which topic it was >_O) but we've all been there, or at least we all will be. I know I have, and I can't stand corruption, but I can open my mind to thoughts and workings of other people. There isn't a certain "GM Code" because everyone has a different idea or opinion about a "GM Code."

For example, some people say it's wrong for a GM to play as a legit player, some don't. Some believe that having more than one GM on your team is just begging for abuse, some believe it's better that way. Some believe GMs shouldn't have commands such as @item, some believe that it's harmless when the right precautions are taken. There are just so many different views and beliefs, you can't place a certain tag on what's right and wrong to you, and say that everyone else should believe it too. I do understand that you're going to stand up for what you believe, I do it too, I just don't think you can really try and force what you believe on other people. To me, that's wrong.

Calling corruption on every little thing you don't personally agree with is almost as bad as corruption itself, in my own opinion. Plus, the only things that I can honestly see as "corrupt" or "abusive" was a couple of things mentioned in Mrrgle's original post, out of the suggestions mentioned here.

Sorry for the lecture, just felt like it needed to be said. Dx Don't mean to be off-topic, if I am. ~

Anyways, I agree with a couple of people here, who say the regular punishments are good enough. I, myself, when giving out a permanent ban, take away forum rights and any other rights to our server. Though it's awesome some people are coming up with interesting ideas and views of how to punish someone, going off of what Poki has already stated, you can't force someone to learn their lesson, and I really don't think changing up how it's done will make any real difference. That's my own personal opinion, though.

Okay we aren't talking about any of the examples you gave...  We are talking about administering punishments and when you start finding cruel and unusual ways to punish someone for the sake of personal amusement.  That is quite frankly corrupt and I cannot see any other reason why you would not think it wasn't corrupt.

Does it matter who is the one being punished if you are using cruel and unusual punishments?  Not really,  the trolls, the bots, the anything really.  All you are doing is creating a wide open area for abuse and excuses.

Sure you may not like my opinions but I and some of my friends have been victim to many of these people's suggestions by corrupt GMs, so don't tell me none of these suggestions are corrupt -.-

For example,  Deliverance-Online:  I got @killed,  @warped to pvp and @job novice and publicly killed for no reason except simply because the admin found out from another admin that I was suspecting corruption of ( Jake the admin )

Regarding the multitude of people in this thread and your statement about their opinions.  I respect their opinions but I also take into consideration the large majority of GMs that are corrupt.  I estimate somewhere around 95% of all GMs are corrupt so unless RMS is an exception and only serious GMs post in this section ( I can only hope )  it wouldn't be to farfetched to consider the possibility that 95% of the GMs here are corrupt as well,  would it? 

No offense to anyone of course it's just a truthful observation ;\

[Hutchy]

Corruption is:

1.    lack of integrity or honesty (especially susceptibility to bribery); use of a position of trust for dishonest gain [syn: corruptness] [ant: incorruption]
2.    in a state of progressive putrefaction [syn: putrescence]
3.    decay of matter (as by rot or oxidation)
4.    moral perversion; impairment of virtue and moral principles; "the luxury and corruption among the upper classes"; "moral degeneracy followed intellectual degeneration"; "its brothels, its opium parlors, its depravity"; "Rome had fallen into moral putrefaction"

So it's easy to say that a lot of particularly cruel punishments can fall under that category, I think.

[Auroraâ„¢]

I never said I didn't like your opinions, simply that I, personally, don't believe they're entirely true. Like I said already, everyone has been, and will be, subject to corruption from another GM or administrator at least once, unless they are lucky enough to find a server absolutely, 100% free of any type of corruption (even though that's improbable, seeing as corruption can easily stretch out to the players being corrupt in their own ways.)

Also, I'm talking about punishing for something a player actually did wrong. Which is what this topic is about, not punishing just because we can; that is, no doubt, corrupt. What the punishment is doesn't really matter, as long as it's fair. Doing something to attempt to make them not enjoy their punishment, as Zairik said, is not abusive, because if it so happens their computer lags out, for example, that's their own problem. If a person broke the rules, a person broke the rules. They have no room to complain, whatsoever, when the infringement is clearly stated as against the rules, therefore, any administrator has the right to deliver a punishment, whatever it may be, according to the severity of the act. It's their server, they choose how to punish, that doesn't necessarily catagorize them as corrupt.

I understand that a lot of GMs or administrators out there are corrupt, but there is, without a doubt, a large population that are not. I've met plenty of people in my day that can pull off being a fair and non-abusive GM. Whether or not they always make the right decision, that's a different story, but making mistakes is a part of life.

Either way, I'm only stating my own opinion, and my opinion is that I don't entirely agree with what you're saying is corrupt when it comes to punishments, s'all. Take that how you will, I guess.

[Mewi]

Doing something to attempt to make them not enjoy their punishment, as Zairik said, is not abusive, because if it so happens their computer lags out, for example, that's their own problem. If a person broke the rules, a person broke the rules. They have no room to complain, whatsoever, when the infringement is clearly stated as against the rules, therefore, any administrator has the right to deliver a punishment, whatever it may be, according to the severity of the act. It's their server, they choose how to punish, that doesn't necessarily catagorize them as corrupt.

What Zairik suggests is beyond the game in which an infraction did not occur which makes the punishment quite bizarre.  Lagging someones computer intentionally is abusive,  two wrongs don't make a right and you should not punish someone using such thinking.  Justice is not about revenge or unusual punishments it should be straight forward and informative to the fact.

As for admins 'right'  I think you will agree with me on this.  Being an admin/gm/mod is not a right, it's a privilege.  Unfortunately that's something most higher ups fail to grasp.  You may think this all my opinion, I take being a GM very seriously because I don't want others to be victimized as I or my friends have been in the past.

You can also say that I am turning down their ideas based on opinion.  So if I am then that's also your opinion.  I am just here pointing out the re precautions of some of these suggestions if they were to be taken into practice.

So unless it states officially in bold text "By playing this server I accept that if I break the rules,  I agree to surrender my computer to severe lag and or crashing"  It's corrupt and unless even if it did say that... It is still a pretty questionable activity for an admin/gm/mod etc.

[Auroraâ„¢]

To be an administrator isn't necessarily a privilege when you're the one paying for it, honestly, which gives you the right to decide the punishments, how the punishments are administered and to what extent they are administered. Just because it might lag someone to the extent of having to exit the game, doesn't make it his intention. The only reason he incorporates such methods is to make it unenjoyable, not to purposely make it so their computer frizzes out. Again, if that happens, it's their own problem. If different and unusual, as already stated, is corrupt, then there are a lot of people that are "corrupt" in this world.

Also, being a player on a server is a privilege, not a right. An administrator has the right to take away said privilege upon any infractions towards the server, again, in anyway they decide when it comes to the severity of the act against the server. I also take being a GM very seriously, but again, my opinions are different from yours.

[Mewi]

To be an administrator isn't necessarily a privilege when you're the one paying for it, honestly, which gives you the right to decide the punishments, how the punishments are administered and to what extent they are administered. Just because it might lag someone to the extent of having to exit the game, doesn't make it his intention. The only reason he incorporates such methods is to make it unenjoyable, not to purposely make it so their computer frizzes out. Again, if that happens, it's their own problem. If different and unusual, as already stated, is corrupt, then there are a lot of people that are "corrupt" in this world.

Also, being a player on a server is a privilege, not a right. An administrator has the right to take away said privilege upon any infractions towards the server, again, in anyway they decide when it comes to the severity of the act against the server. I also take being a GM very seriously, but again, my opinions are different from yours.

So according to this information,  I gather that admins/mods have more rights over the players?  This is not something I agree with or can condone.  Because quite clearly it is the players who keep the server alive whether or not the admin/gm wants to admit.  Sure it takes two to tango, however players are what makes the server worth playing.

Em and if I recall Zairik stated clearly that his intention was to lag the player.  So what unforeseen consequences in addition to this player's punishment can happen?  What if that player was working on a school report and neglected to save,  working on photo editing,  talking with a friend outside of the game on an important matter, finances,  or simply downloading files and then their computer suddenly lags so much that it forces a reboot? 

Can you justify that loss of their work, their conversation, their personal lives, which had NOTHING to do with the server, to whom ever it may be?  Even rule violators have rights so I am against lagging anyone for the purpose of 'punishment'.  I don't think this is a practical form of punishment and it lacks so much morality that I am ashamed to even be discussing it ;\

It is not a right in whatever way I look at it.  Sure you may pay for the server, you may administer it.  But in the end, you are the boss, and a boss has to stick to their ethics if they ever hope for a server to live.  People have all sorts of powers that are easily abusive,  police get paid to keep the peace.  Would you say being a member of congress, the president or even a member of the police be a right?   Sure you may have a right to take on the role even partially but in the end it's a privilege.

No matter what the case if you don't do your job right,  thing's will not go well for you.  There is a reason why rules are written,  this is so no one can dispute your decisions.  If you make up punishments that do not adhere to those rules then you are breaking promises to the people you provide the server to.  With privilege you are not only given rights to administer punishment but you are also accepting that you will not abuse them.

Here is an example of basic RO punishments that really should not differ from server to server.

Any violation of the rules above can and may lead to the following consequences without warning:

a) The removal of your post(s), character(s) or item(s).
b) The muting and or jailing of your character(s).
c) The temporary suspension of your account(s).
d) The permanent suspension of your account(s).
e) The permanent suspension of all services provided by this server.

[Auroraâ„¢]

Mewi, what you're failing to realize, and what you're failing to comprehend, is that all of that is your opinion.

Jail is jail, you don't want to be there long and we don't leave people there long.

I don't see a problem with making people lag in jail with effects, it's not suppose to be a pleasant experience.  Some people are smart enough to turn off their effects and relog.

People will turn off their volume of course, in fact I would assume they would unless they're just stupid, but they always hear the first loud screeches of the Muka or the annoying song for a few seconds first depending on which they left on in their settings.

Most people are not prepared with effects and all sound off when they first get sent to jail, but no matter what your settings are, it's not pleasant.

It is punishment after all.

We never actually kill them, we don't take anything away from them or make them involuntarily drop all their items.  We certainly don't change their gender or appearance.

We're not trying to harass people, we're trying to make jail unpleasant.

Many many times people would just sit there and do /yawn for 5 minutes straight in the default jail system, "oh this is nothing".

Now, they hate it, the lag and the annoying noises when you first get there, and then having to read all the rules before you can learn how much jail time you actually have left.

The point is to make your point the first time so you don't have to repeat the process.

This is not stating his intention is solely to lag the player. This states that lag is a part of the punishment, and it's not so far-fetched as you're making it out to be. He's not saying he's trying to make it so bad, that it's supposed to lag out someone's computer, and again, if this happens? It's their own fault. They broke the rules, and if something like that happens, it happens. That's life, and though what they're doing outside of the game doesn't have anything to do with the rule they broke, they still did it, they're suffering the punishment of which the administrator decided be the punishment for whatever they have done, and stating again for the fifth time, that's their problem if the lag happens to stretch beyond the game. Also, you're claiming that things outside of the game are different from inside the game, but at the same time you justify that it's not just a game, and it should be taken seriously, which would indeed stretch out into other things that should be taken seriously, such as the examples you gave.

In no way did I say the administrators or staff members had rights over the players, and I'm not exactly sure how you came to that conclusion. I said, it's a right to be the administrator over the server you're paying for. In all technicalities, that does give you more power than the players, it's whether or not the person in power has enough respect and care for their players to actually follow the same rules they give to their players. What you're saying has nothing to do with the punishment, more or less a case of questioning the morality of any administrator that would go as far as thinking they are better than the players, which in no way, is what I said.

Also, again, your rules have nothing to do with the rules of others. Administrators should not have the follow the same basic rules of another server, or another person, why? Because that, for a fact, is going against the rights to have your own opinion. If an administrator purposely abuses their powers, and are doing it to spite the players of which they don't care about, that's their own problem, and that will be handled on that server, but there are plenty of administrators out there who wish to go to different extents of punishments for the bettering of the server - not because they are corrupt.

This next opinion is not meant as an insult, and I'm sorry if you take it that way; it seems to me, Mewi, all you're doing is stating your opinion and believing that everyone should follow that same opinion, and believe that your opinion is right even if it goes against their own personal ethics. It seems to me that you're trying to force your opinion on others, and if they don't agree with it, they're wrong and unethical.

Either way, I've stated my opinion, and feel my point is proven enough, and I'm sorry to the moderators for going kind of off-topic. XD

I guess I'll end this arguement debate. If you want to discuss this with me further, to prevent spamming this topic, just PM me. x:

[bleu]

John 8:7 Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[Auroraâ„¢]

John 8:1 Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

That's probably one of the best things I've seen said in this topic. XD

No one is completely innocent when it comes to anything. I can easily admit I've made plenty of mistakes.

[Hutchy]

I like the inclusion of the picture of rocks.

It made me laugh. XD

[Pandora]

Those rocks are pretty ^_^

[Mewi]

Mewi, what you're failing to realize, and what you're failing to comprehend, is that all of that is your opinion.

I am not failing to comprehend anything, please do not assume you know what I am thinking >.>  Just because I do not state "in my opinion" 50 times like you do, does not mean I am failing to see other people's opinions, or see that some opinions I have are just my own.  I simply do not agree with them.  But what you fail to comprehend is that I am not the only one who holds these opinions.  Sorry I don't go with the flow just because everyone else is,  I do have a mind of my own -.-  Not saying you do not but do not stomp on my opinions just because they are opposing other's.

This is not stating his intention is solely to lag the player. This states that lag is a part of the punishment, and it's not so far-fetched as you're making it out to be.

So a part or a whole or a half makes any difference to my statement how?  The fact is that it is part of the intention~ Thus not changing anything I said above or disproving anything, an otherwise irrelevant comment.  *continues to edit my post*

You do not make attacks towards other people's properties else be subject to lawsuits for damaging their property.  Even if they broke the rules on your server,  I can almost promise that if the intention ( no matter how many parts of it ) was to lag someone's system you would lose in the court of law, because you went beyond the game to 'teach them a lesson'

Now for another example, since your claims of my far-fetched ideals are sooo far out there ( as if some of yours are not )  Let's say an admin programmed a virus into his game files that would disable someone's PC through a remote command, when ever he thought someone was breaking his rules.  Now have you ever heard of this method in any game company?  Absolutely NOT.  That case and lagging someone using game mechanics is one in the same.

My rules have nothing to do with other's rules?  It was an example of basic punishments,  and in this topic,  what is and should be done is important because any other GM could come across this and might be mislead into thinking certain things are okay when they are not.  I see no reason why I can't use my own written rules as an example to this seemingly argumentative debate about ethics.  In which In MY opinion are far more defined -.-

Those rocks are pretty ^_^

Meow?

[Auroraâ„¢]

I am not failing to comprehend anything, please do not assume you know what I am thinking >.>  Just because I do not state "in my opinion" 50 times like you do, does not mean I am failing to see other people's opinions, or see that some opinions I have are just my own.  I simply do not agree with them.  But what you fail to comprehend is that I am not the only one who holds these opinions.  Sorry I don't go with the flow just because everyone else is,  I do have a mind of my own -.-  Not saying you do not but do not stomp on my opinions just because they are opposing other's.

First of all, I'm not "stomping on" your opinions. I'm also not "assuming" to know what you're thinking, I'm going off what you're saying, which everything you say is basically defending what you believe to be righteous, and basically saying everyone else is wrong. Quite honestly, you're taking this a little too far. We've gone from discussing the ethics of punishments, to you claiming that I'm attacking your opinions, when you yourself are doing just that to other's opinions. I never said you were the only one who believed such opinions as you claim to believe, which would in-turn, make you the one that's "assuming" what I'm thinking. Kind of a flip-flopped situation? I also never said that there was anything wrong with thinking differently, but there's a difference between thinking differently and holding true to those ideals, and thinking differently and instantly saying a person is wrong or unjust because they don't agree with what you think. I say "in my opinion" plenty of times because this is "in my opinion", and I make it clear because, unlike you, I'm not going to accuse someone of being something, such as corrupt or unfair, because they don't agree with what I think.

When you think something, it doesn't make it right, and I'm willing to admit the same for myself.

You do not make attacks towards other people's properties else be subject to lawsuits for damaging their property.  Even if they broke the rules on your server,  I can almost promise that if the intention ( no matter how many parts of it ) was to lag someone's system you would lose in the court of law, because you went beyond the game to 'teach them a lesson'

Again, his intention was not to lag another person's system, and quite honestly, I'm starting to think the fact that Zairik said this, is the only defense you have in this debate - End of discussion.

Now for another example, since your claims of my far-fetched ideals are sooo far out there ( as if some of yours are not )  Let's say an admin programmed a virus into his game files that would disable someone's PC through a remote command, when ever he thought someone was breaking his rules.  Now have you ever heard of this method in any game company?  Absolutely NOT.  That case and lagging someone using game mechanics is one in the same.

First of all, part of this makes absolutely no sense. An administrator programming a virus into a PC, and an unintentional computer crash (though I highly doubt it, seeing as ANYONE'S computer can easily hand the little bits of things that was incorporated into his jailing idea) are two COMPLETELY different ideas. Not even close to being a good analogy.

My rules have nothing to do with other's rules?  It was an example of basic punishments,  and in this topic,  what is and should be done is important because any other GM could come across this and might be mislead into thinking certain things are okay when they are not.  I see no reason why I can't use my own written rules as an example to this seemingly argumentative debate about ethics.  In which In MY opinion are far more defined -.-

I would expect other GMs to have their own opinions and thoughts about what should and shouldn't be done, than have to refer to a whacky discussion such as this in order to get an idea of what to do, and again, since it's apparent you enjoy taking what I say and twisting it around, I never said you couldn't use your own written rules as an example. I simply said, that your rules have nothing to do with other people's rules. Why? Because, once again, for the five millionth time, everyone has their own idea about GM ethics.

I really don't see any point in furthering this debate, seeing as it's going no where, and, as you're trying to claim I'm doing, all you're doing to my opinions (as you've already done a couple of times in this thread) is belittling them, I'm just going to stop discontinue my side of the argument here, since you obviously didn't get the hint when I tried to move it to private messages with my last post. :3

[mickiedeez]

To be an administrator isn't necessarily a privilege when you're the one paying for it, honestly, which gives you the right to decide the punishments, how the punishments are administered and to what extent they are administered. Just because it might lag someone to the extent of having to exit the game, doesn't make it his intention. The only reason he incorporates such methods is to make it unenjoyable, not to purposely make it so their computer frizzes out. Again, if that happens, it's their own problem. If different and unusual, as already stated, is corrupt, then there are a lot of people that are "corrupt" in this world.

Also, being a player on a server is a privilege, not a right. An administrator has the right to take away said privilege upon any infractions towards the server, again, in anyway they decide when it comes to the severity of the act against the server. I also take being a GM very seriously, but again, my opinions are different from yours.

uhm this guy is clearly corrupt(the original poster).

This was about revenge on my part? o_o;
I thought it was just for fun =v, oh well, silly me. How many more things do corrupt GMs do? And...I can't comprehend about being serious for a private server and this whole "GM code" thing unless I missed a manual for knowing the GM code =v. People seem to use the word Corrupt alot nowadays *scratches chin*.
But alas, some seem to disapprove of me being cynical....I must be looking so terrible as a GM right now XD!

his unique punishments aren't for justice, they're apparently for fun......


btw which tarded necromancer resurrected this topic >_>