Reinventing Ragnarok - by a Game Designer

[Bue]

funny thing , most people use bot or third party , but so far nobody had the idea at server side, to actually run bot on their server as NPC and animated city.

If someone were to build a framework (preferably python) for scripting players for the purpose of creating gaming content, then developers can do some serious badass shit.

Imagine a separate server for synchronizing groups of scripted players, which have basic player recognition, simple command interface via chat, randomize rule set, and AI via dynamic programming (neutral network too computationally intensive). Then you can stimulate real-time events, pvp / tvt / gvg against AI, and etc with player like characteristics, such as changing equipment, using skills, dropping items, trading, and etc.

If implemented external, then python.
If implemented internal, then Lua over Erlang.

Someone get on this. O:!~

(Please implemented the synchronization using peer-2-peer (bots connect and communicate to each other to run the same general sequence) O:!)

[Triper]

funny thing , most people use bot or third party , but so far nobody had the idea at server side, to actually run bot on their server as NPC and animated city.

I know someone who made that at an official server. He coded two games in perl [hangman and crosswords, I believe] and had the scripts running for two entire months through player characters where people could interact with him and play through whispers.

Players loved his two games so much that some though that he was a new npc made by Gravity LOL

In the end he got banned because his actions were considered "macros" but not after a huge topic being made at the official forum where some complained about his macro usage and others asked why wasn't Gravity doing stuff like that since they enjoyed it a lot.

[Bue]

pearl Perl (openkore is Perl based)
interact with him and play through whispers.

That is a very smart way to route all message to his main character whatever communication.

I am guessing he whisper back and the bot will print to chat.

[Triper]

Fixed. Sorry but perl isn't something that I use

And yeah, he even had a system where people could whisper small messages of thanks. It was something really cool to watch.

[Bue]

I bet he plays RO on command line using openkore because he misses text-based RPG.

And he later plans on building a text-based UI using ncurses so he can play on unix based systems.

He'll have each client running and daemonize using screen on his Gentoo box.

O:!~ the dream

[ShadowLight]

One thing I don't like in Ragnarok is the complete locked system of dual class or even triple classes.

In DD, you can be dual classes or triple classes...

In Ragnarok you are fcked up and locked into a limited game play.

Most item in database are worthless ... weapon or gear are totally a waste of time to even implement as 99% of players will drop them.

Dirk ? Dagger ? Stilleto ? what the meaning to have those weapon ?
Same goes for shirt ? Panties ?

All in all, gear should grant dual classes and triple classes ( not the crap version of creamy card ... )

It's quite easy to scrip as most of skill can be getrefine()-weapon lvl .

Example :
All spear should grant Spear Stab, Spear Boomberang
But been swordman add Spear Mastery that boost spear attack by a % rather than a flat dmg.

This is actually pretty interesting. Especially the example on spear. Would it be the same thing if all players have ALL skill available (@allskills). That way, they can switch weapon if they want to and change play-style while in battle.

funny thing , most people use bot or third party , but so far nobody had the idea at server side, to actually run bot on their server as NPC and animated city.

Probably because the one botting is usually the player, not developer. I used to see friendly heal bots where priests would just heal random players as they re-spawn and automatically reply to "thanks". Surely this is similar but less sophisticated. Though, rather than using a bot program, you can definitely just script monsters (use player models similar to @clone) to do almost the same thing.

[Triper]

I bet he plays RO on command line using openkore because he misses text-based RPG.

And he later plans on building a text-based UI using ncurses so he can play on unix based systems.

He'll have each client running and daemonize using screen on his Gentoo box.

O:!~ the dream

Lol xD And nah, he only made that to test his skills with perl since he's studying Computer Engineering at University.

[annaquin]

perl is cool language, most people prefer the simplistic lua ...

The advante of bot as npc is for merchant ...

As merchant are static vending machine, on low population , a weigthed item seller could sell item by rotation and rarity.
Same goes for quest , finding a walking npc is a bit more fun than just @map name,x,y

And I am not even talking about fighting or hunting down automated npc that can chit chat, taunt, and fight back in PVP

[Vhandel]

To bring in a side topic aside from perl and skill/weapon mechanics.

I play a lot of card games, I've been playing pokemon tcg competitively for years now, magic, yugioh, Weiss, vanguard, etc. what I'm basically getting at is create a format for WOE as opposed to gear wins or changing skills and gear and what it essentially does, things can be the same just change what can be used. Basically what you can use and what you cannot use, if anyone has even one thing that isn't allowed in WOE it warps them back to the same map they entered or a town where they can re-gear at kafra. Then this doesn't create broken mechanics in pre or renewal. Constantly change the meta from year to year so it keeps people interested, balance it between classes so every class has fair gain or one class has presence over the rest of the format for one year over the rest but then next year doesn't. This can probably bolster a renewal server with constant updates for years to come, but a pre-renewal could probably last for about 10 years before people get bored with it. Just an idea.

[Astraeos]

Point System: You will obtain points from killing Paragon (Custom Minibosses), MvPs or players. These points is shared among party members and can be used to buy equipments.

Make sure the way players get points is during a limited and competitive atmosphere, otherwise you invite farming of a specific relation and it kills the whole system you create.

Removing poison status will cause the player to take damage depending on the remaining duration of the status.

I'd just rework whole poison mechanic. If you're going to use the old one its not going chance how useless poison is.

Experience calculation is set to calculate damaged done over maximum HP.

I don't understand how this is any different then whats currently implemented.

Devotion will now only share 50% of the damage received from the devoted player. If the Crusader casts "Heal" skill, the devoted player will also receive 50% of the heal regardless of the Crusader's target.

You've effectively killed the Paladin class.

Deadly Poison will only increase your damage against poisoned targets.

...and Assassins.

Every combo will temporarily increase your movement speed and attack speed (up to 50% movement speed and 150% attack). The effect lasts 15 seconds.

It'll take some tries for you to get how you want those numbers where you want them. MS and AS in RO is based off whats missing to achieve the maximum effect.

Vending skill has been replaced with "Merchant's Burden": For every 1% unused weight you have, your maxHP is increased (up to 50%).

There's no reason to make Biochems stronger.

Killing a player in PvP will grant you 10 Prestige Points.
Points will be divided equally among party members in the same map.

This has better applications in a GvG setting as it promotes competitiveness and not farming. You could add multipliers for participants in a castle with more eco/def.

Monster's level will now be displayed beside their name.

Are you changing how monster level will effect experience and/or damage dealt to players?

Players can now view other player's equipment with no restrictions.

As long as its disabled in PvP/WoE, that's actually pretty useful. Otherwise it would just be 'wait, open their gear, "oh okay, let me one shot them with elemental advantage"'


Throughout the thread theres been some good ideas, it ultimately comes down to. Do you want to improve RO or make something new. Because you aren't going to be able to blend the ideas without making drastic changes that ultimately make it a different game to the varying audiences. If you're looking to make massive changes like the ones you suggested, I'd go with using Renewal as your platform. There's more to work with and easier to balance around.

[annaquin]

that's why it is best to make on RMS forum. So we can sligthy but with consensus depart from Gravity ...

[ShadowLight]

Make sure the way players get points is during a limited and competitive atmosphere, otherwise you invite farming of a specific relation and it kills the whole system you create.
I'd just rework whole poison mechanic. If you're going to use the old one its not going chance how useless poison is.
I don't understand how this is any different then whats currently implemented.
You've effectively killed the Paladin class.
...and Assassins.
It'll take some tries for you to get how you want those numbers where you want them. MS and AS in RO is based off whats missing to achieve the maximum effect.
There's no reason to make Biochems stronger.
This has better applications in a GvG setting as it promotes competitiveness and not farming. You could add multipliers for participants in a castle with more eco/def.
Are you changing how monster level will effect experience and/or damage dealt to players?
As long as its disabled in PvP/WoE, that's actually pretty useful. Otherwise it would just be 'wait, open their gear, "oh okay, let me one shot them with elemental advantage"'


Throughout the thread theres been some good ideas, it ultimately comes down to. Do you want to improve RO or make something new. Because you aren't going to be able to blend the ideas without making drastic changes that ultimately make it a different game to the varying audiences. If you're looking to make massive changes like the ones you suggested, I'd go with using Renewal as your platform. There's more to work with and easier to balance around.

That's a pretty sweet review. I'll look into that with my team.

For the point system, I have two different type of points.
MvPs are pretty strong and are considered un-soloable at the time being which makes it harder to farm.
As for the paragons, these are much weaker but will grant you a different type of point which has lesser reward than the MvP Points.

Poison and Assassin Class ahs been improved since that patch but definitely needs more work.

On curious on your comment on Paladin. Many players enjoyed it during the BETA. In a way, it gave birth to Support Paladins since it either buff their healing by 150% on a single target OR heal multiple two target at once. Perhaps, you meant it kills tank paladins?

You're right about the combo tweak. The champion combo is very challenging to set. We're currently having issues with how players move in RO. It makes it hard to do combo.

The PvP Points is also split into two: (GvG/BG) and (Normal PvP). Better rewards will be given to GvG/BG points.

Renewal sure sound tempting, but it would take a lot of my resources to do since these has already been implemented on a pre-renewal server. Our team has less than a week to migrate to renewal but it might just be possible considering how we have the code setup.

I love the feedback, it's really useful and good to rethink. We're doing final sprint on the changes before grand opening. This is really helpful.

[Suspension]

As someone who has been willing to change how Ragnarok works -for over a year- and trying to making it more interesting, I see some of your changes refreshing, but I think some others are a bit useless.
To name a few:
Fly wings: If you cap the use of them and there is for example maya purple in anthell01 in the entrance, a newbie will not be able to level properly there without fly wings being instant.
Combos: Time based bonuses are only useful on PVM situations. The user might be already dead when the first combo hits in a pvp situation. Also, the bonus would quickly run out when facing another enemy.
Improve Concentration disappearing when using Sharp Shooting: Ignoring the obvious waste of SP, you are making the skill not spammable because you would need to recast improve concentration every time or, if you don't use it, your cast time will be longer and the attack way lower because of the lower dex.

Some other modifications are really good, like the scream/frost joker based on distance - which is exactly how I nerfed those skills time ago - and it's clearly how the skill should have worked in the default game.

Good luck with the project, I'm also planning on delivering a modified version of RO, although mine would resemblance the game a bit more by just fixing balance between classes and spice it up with some other changes in the environment.

[annaquin]

Well Gravity introduced many flaw and many poison skills ..  all badly  designed:D

First of all, the thief branch is a mess, it's a whole screwed up concept

What exactly is supposed to do a rogue ( stripper  , so it should be an extension of stealing )

Thief -> steal -> debuff stats/skills/combo from gear -> steal stats/skills/ from gear
Thief -> Dual dagger and Double -> WHY NOT TRIPLE Then ?WTF gravity Why not combo

It should be Double -> Triple -> CI ( 7 hit ) -> Sonic Blow ( 8 hit )


Envenom -> Poisonous -> Venom Splasher -> Poison Spore -> Poison Buster
Venom Dust -> Poison Smoke -> Killing Cloud

Gravity don't make any sense at all , ruin consistency and any logic ...


Assassin shouldn't be played in wild field but only as ambusher or on command using crowd/corner/hidden possibilities.
Rogue should be played like a gear debuf, stat debuff and buff stealer..

A shadow chaser should equip himself with a wide steal all buff applied on target 11x11 at max level .. but technically shadow chaser is much more well designed than Assassin class.

[Astraeos]

On curious on your comment on Paladin. Many players enjoyed it during the BETA. In a way, it gave birth to Support Paladins since it either buff their healing by 150% on a single target OR heal multiple two target at once. Perhaps, you meant it kills tank paladins?

From a competitive aspect, the ratio is too high for the person to be Devoted to. You may want to re-balance it so the Paladin takes more of the damage. Looking at it with a 50-50 ratio, you could still easily kill the Devo'd person which brings into question why use a Paladin. What you have now is a stronger mitigation tool then it is in its current implementation, but weaker in its competitive areas.

EDP can be revamped by having it apply a stacking poison type acting as an indirect DPS tool, just an idea. I'm not really familiar with how your server works.

The RE concept would require work, since you'd also have to touch on cast times and certain skills ignoring reductions. I'd say skip over the Mora batch if you're going to include episodic gears and such, as that's the standalone patch that killed RE.

Glad you took the critique positively, good luck.