Reinventing Ragnarok - by a Game Designer

[Gene]

I played on your experimental server a bit before, the spa was cool, what made it a "not so nice place" is maybe because it's on a different map, try putting it somewhere in your main town and maybe you will see people sitting there having a nice chat.

I like your combo monk/champ change though, feels refreshing to play a a full pvm monk class a bit, but I don't see it being efficient on pvp, you will have to use asura either way.

[Suspension]

Those last changes just look like random formulas and cooldowns. Like you get Ragnarok online, remove every tactic and apply a generic and slow mmorpg style on it.

You remove diversity (no more aspd based skills) and a lot of skills has now no sense. If all combo skill are now targeted skill and can be used independently, how is that a combo?

Things I don't see any sense at all:
Potion pitcher not using potions.
Dragonology granting mdef.
Arrow skills not using arrows.

Venom Splasher goes from being a s*** skill to a s*** skill that mimics meteor assault with way less atk.

It's just no more Ragnarok Online.

[annaquin]

Those last changes just look like random formulas and cooldowns. Like you get Ragnarok online, remove every tactic and apply a generic and slow mmorpg style on it.

You remove diversity (no more aspd based skills) and a lot of skills has now no sense. If all combo skill are now targeted skill and can be used independently, how is that a combo?

Things I don't see any sense at all:
Potion pitcher not using potions.
Dragonology granting mdef.
Arrow skills not using arrows.

Ragnarok isn't allowing ASPD based ... thanks from white pot.. except ASPD EDP GT ( cost 100k per minute ) been Aspd based = discarded from any OP skills ...

Also Venom Splasher proc 0.5 splash dmg is FAR superior to MA , due to VS a normal attack aka able to proc "on attack" skill.

Shadow : It's only for pre renewal ?

[ShadowLight]

Those last changes just look like random formulas and cooldowns. Like you get Ragnarok online, remove every tactic and apply a generic and slow mmorpg style on it.

You remove diversity (no more aspd based skills) and a lot of skills has now no sense. If all combo skill are now targeted skill and can be used independently, how is that a combo?

Things I don't see any sense at all:
Potion pitcher not using potions.
Dragonology granting mdef.
Arrow skills not using arrows.

Venom Splasher goes from being a s*** skill to a s*** skill that mimics meteor assault with way less atk.

It's just no more Ragnarok Online.

These changes are still open to changes (currently being implemented and tested for both PvP and PvE).

To me the champion skills is still a combo, the difference is that instead of A->B->C->D->E, I introduce flexibility to the players to chain it the way they want it. Depending on the situation, you can choose to stun first or stun later in the combo. It also reduce the problem of players moving while doing combo (which stops the combo from being chained properly).

As for arrows/potions/etc, I prefer players to worry about which arrow to use rather than how many arrows I'm going to bring. Since I will be introducing new MvPs in special dungeon (or instance), they will be running out of arrows for sure. I'm not saying that it is bad to have a reagent/ammunition (it actually makes the game more realistic), but I'm leaning towards having the game to be less grinding and more doing. It is two similar kind of fun: "The skill to save up reagent" vs "The skill to save cd" for when the time comes.

As for Venom Splasher, due to the poison status change, it is FAR off from being a bad skill.

I can go on and on about the changes, but to summarize, all of these changes are made for a reason (not just for the sake of changing). Once tested and released, you will see why these changes happen and how to use each one of them in combat. As I mention before, I'm introducing about two new builds per class and each of them is unique in their own way.

It is also interesting how people react to this. One is saying that "this changes is barely noticable, you call this reinvented?" while the other is like "what are you doing? this is not RO anymore". Just FYI, this is actually pretty common in other games too especially when they are releasing a sequel. That's why you can see games that stays the same and those move away from their original design.

Correct, it's only for pre-renewal.
Ragnarok isn't allowing ASPD based ... thanks from white pot.. except ASPD EDP GT ( cost 100k per minute ) been Aspd based = discarded from any OP skills ...

Also Venom Splasher proc 0.5 splash dmg is FAR superior to MA , due to VS a normal attack aka able to proc "on attack" skill.

Shadow : It's only for pre renewal ?

It is only for pre-renewal.

[ggwp]

Ragnarok isn't allowing ASPD based ... thanks from white pot.. except ASPD EDP GT ( cost 100k per minute ) been Aspd based = discarded from any OP skills ...

Are you even playing RO at competitive level ?

150 Int Bragi makes people build around aspd because 100% ACD means your spam rate only affected by animation delay which affected greatly by aspd. Even priest would benefit alot from aspd by going bare handed or quad cecil mace with adrenaline rush.

[tnznt]

I think it got pretty clear this server isn't about 'competitive' level. This competitive level can't stand itself due to most WoE players being extremely cancerous and always playing with a pretty ridiculous amount of cheats. And don't tell me that 'Ah there's adelays, x shield'. There's cheats to bypass them and y'all know that.








sometimes even created by the same creator of the shield

[annaquin]

Are you even playing RO at competitive level ?

150 Int Bragi makes people build around aspd because 100% ACD means your spam rate only affected by animation delay which affected greatly by aspd. Even priest would benefit alot from aspd by going bare handed or quad cecil mace with adrenaline rush.

That's crap theory. Been ASPD only imply reliable source of tank around you. People die from rain Comet , so spare us the crap. Dying from random skill or hiding behind tank isn't what make ASPD reliable. Even sniper isn't worth playing ASPD ... the only exception are GX that can hide and spam grimtooth with sick damage and Poisonning in renewal.

And in RWC you don't see any players even trying to play ASPD, in competition you are rarely alone and when you are, pretty much only white pot save you.

In prerenewal a simple SG destory whatever tactics , you either in undead + anti demi human or get stuck frozen ready to be one shoted with lightining element or a blue pot asura. I haven't yet see anyone full loaded in human resistance tanking EDP SL SB in frozen status.

In renewal , GX can play ASPD with poisonning and stack Venom Bleed + Curse Wound lvl 2 and let you go die somewhere else ... but that's rarely seen in competitiv area.

[Suspension]

For what you say, you haven't really played pre-re woes at all and don't know how ASPD affects the game.

To me the champion skills is still a combo, the difference is that instead of A->B->C->D->E, I introduce flexibility to the players to chain it the way they want it. Depending on the situation, you can choose to stun first or stun later in the combo. It also reduce the problem of players moving while doing combo (which stops the combo from being chained properly)

So... they can be used independently (just like any other skill) and gain no buff when an specific skill is casted after another (like any other skill). That's really not what combo means. You can use Envenom and use Sonic blow, or use Sonic Blow and then Envenom, Sonic blow causes stun, and you can choose when to stun. See the analogy?

Posion: 20 hp per second, stackable up to 20. Which means max 400hp damage per second max. As as side effect of a powerfull skill might be "okay", but as the real effect of a 50% atk skill, I can't really get how that is something extraordinary.

And as I said, you kill aspd skills and builds with these changes, as well as you turn Spirit monks into healing characers.

[annaquin]

For what you say, you haven't really played pre-re woes at all and don't know how ASPD affects the game.

You do claim a lot , but ... HP pool in pre-renewal is crap, so whatever you are saying, any SX with EDP SSB will blow up whatever ASPD crap tactic you will try.

Even renewal, aspd gx with poisonning isn't really a threat to anyone and that's by far the most advanced ASPD threat you will ever encounter in Ragnarok online.

But please enlight me with some build , my Aspd GX on kRO is aspd 185 with katar , use EDP GT with curse arrow, Burning of Evil God +14 Raging Katar/Blood Tears, Poisonning Pyrexia , Death Hurt or Venom Bleed.


At max against a full armor blinded Pal the max dmg we could with my GX was : 60k dmg /sec with extrem condition, normal condtion in WOE was 30k dmg/sec full buffed, that's still far away from 100k dmg from Lex scroll + GoH

As far as I know to put things into order the max dmg from GX , is EDP CS(10) that could go up to 800k dmg and EDP CRS that could go up to 600k dmg.

[greenmagic469]

No offense OP, but this thread is chock full of awful ideas. It seems to me that you're just wanting to add these features willy-nilly without any concern for game balance, and that is not the mind of a designer but rather a child playing in a sandbox. For example, you don't want archers to consume arrows...? Lol... Okay, might as well make every item like potions and wings infinitely reusable... You've just created a second mage class with no casting time and infinite ranged attacks that don't require any kind of consumable resource to use, good job.

What is this spa business about? News flash, it's called a Kafra and a main town. You're just taking normal features. Also, did you need to rip the term "Paragon" points directly from Blizzard? This system already exists in many servers under different names anyway.

This airship system is daft. Town warper > airship. You might consider standing on an airship for 2 minutes to be "authentic" or "unique", I consider it to be boring and I'm going to guess most of your players will too.

Skill buffs... So you want all the classes to have access to a bunch of skills from other classes so you can make hybrids? Sounds cool on the surface- until you realize that by doing this, you're making actual classes almost entirely pointless. Also, have you heard of these cool things called "cards" and "scrolls"? They give you all sorts of cool powers from other classes without totally f*** your game design and ruining class balance.

You're just meddling with everything. You aren't attempting to refine and update the RO formula, you're trying to turn it into your own lame version of what you "think" an MMORPG should be. Sorry bub, if this is what you think passes for "game design", consider a different profession because these are terrible ideas, especially when they're being inserted into a game which was not built to support any of them. If you want to make these changes to your RO server, go right ahead, have fun. But don't act like you're somehow making revolutionary changes and "re-inventing Ragnarok" because you're not, you're adding worthless features that don't make the game any better. Personally, I wouldn't waste a single minute on your server because it sounds bollocks and by the tone of other posts in this thread, I'd say many people agree. Back to the drawing board mate.

[ggwp]

Been ASPD only imply reliable source of tank around you

Ever try normal pvp on pre renewal ? Most server will have some Champion that run aspd build with slotted Berserk.

People die from rain Comet , so spare us the crap.

Like your squishy GX ? I'll spare that crap GX build  .

And in RWC you don't see any players even trying to play ASPD, in competition you are rarely alone and when you are, pretty much only white pot save you.

RWC settings doesnt work much for most aspd build because they cant reach significant dex from level and gear limit. But LK and HP still could run aspd build which are game changer in RWC setting.

In prerenewal a simple SG destory whatever tactics , you either in undead + anti demi human or get stuck frozen ready to be one shoted with lightining element or a blue pot asura. I haven't yet see anyone full loaded in human resistance tanking EDP SL SB in frozen status.

Marc card or you die from stacked meteor.

In renewal , GX can play ASPD with poisonning and stack Venom Bleed + Curse Wound lvl 2 and let you go die somewhere else ... but that's rarely seen in competitiv area.

Rolling Cutter are heavily reliant on aspd and still better by long shot for PvP and WoE.

You do claim a lot , but ... HP pool in pre-renewal is crap, so whatever you are saying, any SX with EDP SSB will blow up whatever ASPD crap tactic you will try.

K , EPD SB vs Aspd Paladin.

Even renewal, aspd gx with poisonning isn't really a threat to anyone and that's by far the most advanced ASPD threat you will ever encounter in Ragnarok online.

But please enlight me with some build , my Aspd GX on kRO is aspd 185 with katar , use EDP GT with curse arrow, Burning of Evil God +14 Raging Katar/Blood Tears, Poisonning Pyrexia , Death Hurt or Venom Bleed.

What a joke build , 10/10 would laugh again.

At max against a full armor blinded Pal the max dmg we could with my GX was : 60k dmg /sec with extrem condition, normal condtion in WOE was 30k dmg/sec full buffed, that's still far away from 100k dmg from Lex scroll + GoH

As far as I know to put things into order the max dmg from GX , is EDP CS(10) that could go up to 800k dmg and EDP CRS that could go up to 600k dmg.

Rather than talking about unrealistic condition , you should think realistic match instead. I'm not going to waste my times teaching advanced renewal knowledge on someone who cant even play decent RO.



==================

So yeah , most of frequently used skills gutted by this server. But some skill are still left untouched Bragi , Meteor Storm , Bolt , (Linked) Shield Boomerang , etc.

[Suspension]

Please, tell me how good your EDP Sonic Blow Assassin Cross is versus a 99 int/dex Stun inmune 190 aspd Creator devo'd in the middle of a gvg.

[annaquin]

You obviously try to ruin this post with your so called hyper effective knowledge APSD fight that only consist of spamming skill. ( So the point of been ASPD is for you to spam skill, which is something you can achieve in WOE condition with a Kaguro buff and Magic String ... )

For the point of reinventing Ragnarok .. I would say class versatility is good for point but those point in Renewal play a way too less factor in winning than in prerenewal. In a way, prerenewal stats was almost perfect balance but for FLEE.

In prerenwal, having to top a xx0 number  to get the extra bonus was great acheivement and made worth the stat tuning STR 140 and STR150 should even have a more decent dmg factor.

And I think the way Ragnarok should have been , would be that stat should have been factorized into a xx0 requirement to grant extra bonus.

ATK formula was simply and greatly made = STR+ [STR/10]^2 is just great and should be used

Then again instead of renewal formula

game mechanics should have been simplified but let intact the quadratic effect

minATK = STR+[STR/10]^2
maxATK=STR+[STR/10]^2

DMG = {minATK x DEX + maxATK x LUK } / [ DEX+LUK ] + [ weapon ATK ]

Same goes for
Magic DMG
Long Range DMG
Flee = AGI + [AGI/10]^2 + Fell gear

Resistance formula should be more asymptotic
Resistance =  LOG10[ STAT to counter effect  x LEVEL ] * 20% -LOG10[STAT of caster to boost effect x LEVEL of caster ]*10% - Number Attempt % ( no random calculation, every value < 0 = reset number of attempt to 0 and apply the status )

Duration = Forced Duration [STAT to boost effect from target/10] - [STAT to counter sec from caster/10] sec

All formula should be simplified imo to a more consistency.



As a note : MY EDP SSB is dealing 200k raw dmg to anyone without lex scroll and 400k raw dmg with lex scroll. So as far as I know , only Full Buffed Tanker LK or RK are known to survive. And best DPS is Warlock Comet rain not Creator Devo that require some full team to actually be usefull at 9 cell range.

2 warlock chaining Comet wipe out an entire screen in 10 sec and only RK and LK and hidden character are known to remain alive. Tested, already criticized, already proven and issue has already been adressed to Gravity Korea. So your so called competitiv crap GVG is merely doubtfull...

You can't do s*** against Comet rain because of burning status , Multiple or infinite lock on, Heavy Dmg to outpot, long range distance , 10% drain of SP, hellish screen stress

[Zelos]

Let it die. It's been long enough.

[ShadowLight]

No offense OP, but this thread is chock full of awful ideas. It seems to me that you're just wanting to add these features willy-nilly without any concern for game balance, and that is not the mind of a designer but rather a child playing in a sandbox. For example, you don't want archers to consume arrows...? Lol... Okay, might as well make every item like potions and wings infinitely reusable... You've just created a second mage class with no casting time and infinite ranged attacks that don't require any kind of consumable resource to use, good job.

What is this spa business about? News flash, it's called a Kafra and a main town. You're just taking normal features. Also, did you need to rip the term "Paragon" points directly from Blizzard? This system already exists in many servers under different names anyway.

This airship system is daft. Town warper > airship. You might consider standing on an airship for 2 minutes to be "authentic" or "unique", I consider it to be boring and I'm going to guess most of your players will too.

Skill buffs... So you want all the classes to have access to a bunch of skills from other classes so you can make hybrids? Sounds cool on the surface- until you realize that by doing this, you're making actual classes almost entirely pointless. Also, have you heard of these cool things called "cards" and "scrolls"? They give you all sorts of cool powers from other classes without totally f*** your game design and ruining class balance.

You're just meddling with everything. You aren't attempting to refine and update the RO formula, you're trying to turn it into your own lame version of what you "think" an MMORPG should be. Sorry bub, if this is what you think passes for "game design", consider a different profession because these are terrible ideas, especially when they're being inserted into a game which was not built to support any of them. If you want to make these changes to your RO server, go right ahead, have fun. But don't act like you're somehow making revolutionary changes and "re-inventing Ragnarok" because you're not, you're adding worthless features that don't make the game any better. Personally, I wouldn't waste a single minute on your server because it sounds bollocks and by the tone of other posts in this thread, I'd say many people agree. Back to the drawing board mate.

No offence taken. You're just stating what you feel and think about the server and I do appreciate your honesty more than anything. Though I agree with most of your reasoning, there are some I would like to get some clarification (or just want to tell you why I changed it):

For example, you don't want archers to consume arrows...? Lol... Okay, might as well make every item like potions and wings infinitely reusable... You've just created a second mage class with no casting time and infinite ranged attacks that don't require any kind of consumable resource to use, good job.

Unless Mages have to consume reagents to cast every single spell, I strongly believe that it is not a fair comparison. On top of that, mage-based classes can regenerate SP easily out of battle (some skill even give boost to this). For archer-based classe, if you run out of arrows, unless you have the right reagent for the arrow you want, you're at a disadvantage. This is even worse in PvP since you will not get loot from anything. It is rather interesting, by just removing arrows, you say that archer classes are now mages. Are you saying that the only difference between archer and mages is the need for arrows (just to fill in weight limit and spend zeny on)?

You're just meddling with everything. You aren't attempting to refine and update the RO formula, you're trying to turn it into your own lame version of what you "think" an MMORPG should be.

You're just meddling with everything. You aren't attempting to refine and update the RO formula, you're trying to turn it into your own lame version of what you "think" an MMORPG should be. Sorry bub, if this is what you think passes for "game design", consider a different profession because these are terrible ideas, especially when they're being inserted into a game which was not built to support any of them. If you want to make these changes to your RO server, go right ahead, have fun. But don't act like you're somehow making revolutionary changes and "re-inventing Ragnarok" because you're not, you're adding worthless features that don't make the game any better. Personally, I wouldn't waste a single minute on your server because it sounds bollocks and by the tone of other posts in this thread, I'd say many people agree. Back to the drawing board mate.

This is my drawing board. I kept on posting this at the end of almost every post I make. This is the place for me to learn. I have zero intention to force people to agree that my idea will make Ragnarok better. It's just another way to redesign and I can't emphasize this enough, everyone have their own vision. This is just a way to get this brainstorming topic going (which is working very very well). Also,I'm pretty sure I mentioned that this is mostly skill changes NOT ALL of the changes that I have or plan to make. I have changes in DEF and FLEE formula.

To me, Ragnarok Private Server really is a invaluable sandbox. Sure it has its limitation due how it is already been set up, but the things you can do with it and the price you have to pay to keep it running is definitely worth it. I do believe that this truly is the best MMORPG sandbox to test out ideas. Let me know if there's any other MMORPG sandbox I can use to test that is as stable and robust as RO, I'll be sure to try it out.

Say whatever you want, I won't be throwing away my passion to design games just because I made a terrible design. This is my way of learning and getting input. I can't even imagine making a perfect custom server the first time, nor the second, or the third. But overtime, I want to be able to get it right. Again, I'm not easily offended. Appreciate all the meaningful feedback, keep it up!