Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.

[Ayu]

Aren't the 'hard' mvp already getting it's drops raped?

Can you clarify?

For example, valk shield.

50% drop assuming 10x rate, but I recall that it has 0 def so it is only about the resistances. Now without trans classes, killing it isn't impossible as you really just go with SW anyway. However, using non-trans is horribly SP draining, yet there is no prof, so we have to dump a lot of blue potion to get the job done. Compare to 'normal servers,' the cost to get it done is a lot higher, yet the item payout is 'worse' than before. Not saying that the shield is now useless, but Valkyrie is just a good example of how nothing seems to have changed, but lack of efficiency due to no trans sends the cost to MvP to skyrocket.

So besides the challenge, the extra cost factor needs to be considered too when you are doing tweaks to mvp drops.

(I don't remember if there's still SG around in your server or not... if they are still around, well Valkyrie is a bad example then but hope you get my point.)

[horo]

Besides Beelze's curse wand and the Ifrit's rings, the only MVP drop I might end up touching after taking in everyone's opinion into consideration is Ice Pick's droprate as I consider it a horrible thing to exist.

As for little Valkyrie, you do have a point. I gave it a go and it takes a good while longer with Hunter than Sniper behind a SW'ing Priest, although SP items will be much easier to come by with 10x droprate, too, but if you're stingy on them, it'll probably take 10 minutes to take her down at least. There's always the unheard option of taking more than 1 DD along to kill her, but I'll reconsider giving the shield 1 more def or so  . I still think they're one of the most disproportionally good items in the game in relation to how easy they are to farm.

Definitely not having any advanced classes, as each is superior to 2nd classes in their own way. I can't imagine the carnage if one of the 10 people in existence that knows how to play GS would step into a WoE 

[Xeche]

I think it's a good idea but one problem im seeing is the fact that taking out the trans classes will prevent them from also getting to the newer trans classes (Gullotine Cross, Arch Bishop, etc.) and i know when that comes out alot of people will want to try them out so they'll be going for high rate servers with the trans classes.

why not just make the monsters 200% stronger?
that way it takes a team of novices to kill 1 poring xD thatd be epic haha

[Sarin]

It actually does not mean that 3rd classes will be taken out. As far as I know, it will be possible to change to 3rd class even from nontrans, at the penalty of not having trans skills. Yet, it will have to be rebalanced ofcourse.

I take it you didn't realize that problem is in PvP balance, not PvM?

[horo]

I'd like you to not continue this discussion on 3rd classes initiated by an unnecessary bump. I'm not having rebirth classes, and certainly none beyond that.

I'm pretty pleased with how this topic went, so lets leave it at that

[LiteX]

I think it's a good idea but one problem im seeing is the fact that taking out the trans classes will prevent them from also getting to the newer trans classes (Gullotine Cross, Arch Bishop, etc.) and i know when that comes out alot of people will want to try them out so they'll be going for high rate servers with the trans classes.

why not just make the monsters 200% stronger?
that way it takes a team of novices to kill 1 poring xD thatd be epic haha

You do realize most people that liked a transless RO would hate to have 3rd classes, and you really don't need to trans to go 3rd-Class.

[soki]

i'm not sure if it already has been mentioned but would it be too overpower
to add "Full Protection" to Alchemist? Instead of them using all 4 skills to
fully protect someone and it'll be less expensive it'll be nice to have that
skill as a regular Alchemist

[A92FL0163]

You would have to add Full Divest to make it fair, and people would want their trans skill too and yada yada yada yada.

[horo]

I think people tend to forget there was a time before rebirth classes, when there only were single strip/protection skills and people dealt with those fine. Besides, making a strip rogue with only 50 job points to distribute is a far bigger commitment than getting FS on a stalker: No Intimidate, no max double strafe + stalk.

[soki]

You would have to add Full Divest to make it fair, and people would want their trans skill too and yada yada yada yada.

obviously those people don't see the difference between a rogue and an alchemist

alchemist is part support class specially during PVM/MVP would you want
use Helm, Shield, Armor, and Weapon Protection to party made of 2-20people?
that's 8-80 glistening coat per party that's if they don't die and if they keep
dying that's another bunch of glistening..

if you still disagree i suggest you go to BioLab w/ an alchemist and a party
and see how many times you and your party get their equips broken and
how many glistening coat you'll end up using

and for the record alchemist is one of the least played character in ragnarok
before the transcendant class and homunculus came out you hardly see
those character in any party the only reason people actually play them is
for pure brewing that's about it or if someone wants to get Protection before
MVPing any MVP that breaks equipments.. sadly but true..

so there's a HUGE difference between putting FullProtection and adding
FullDivest.. and for the record horo is already adding Preserve (a stalker skill)

Edit: If the server only have less than 50population yes it's fine to have single
protection for WOEing but you guys do realize that before the transcendant/bio lab was
implemented there was barely any monster that has the ability to break equips
that's why veteran(those who played earlier iRO) player manage just fine with
single protection because it was rarely even used at all but considering the fact
that horo plan to implement all maps and mobs (up to date) that will change drastically
including the fact that most mobs/mvp were buffed up by gravity and added few skill
that breaks and even strip player equips

[horo]

My changes to Alchemist class so far are:

# changed Acid Bottle to use Venom Canine instead of  Immortal Heart (skill description update required)
# changed Alcohol creation to use 1 Poison Spore and 1 Stem (skill description update required)

which I worry might make obtaining glistening coats too easy and thus strip rogues not good enough when they're far more difficult to level than alchemists. Making alchemist a worthwhile class is pretty difficult (and Gravity sure messed it up with AD, and subsequently had to change all MVP vit values to fix it at least somewhat), so I welcome any suggestions. They'll obviously have homunculus, but few people see those as an incentive to play the class I feel.

Giving preserve to rogues doesn't affect their relationship with alchemists since if you go the intimidate tree, you've no skillpoints for the strip tree and the other way around.

[LiteX]

Giving FCP to Alchies will make no sense, in the end, there will be mass nagging on why the server isn't equal and start suggestion to give trans skills to their nontrans counterparts

[horo]

I agree, the only rebirth skill I will be giving to 2nd classes is preserve for reasons hopefully everyone will understand (like disallowing double client making it impossible to give a skill to yourself).

[LiteX]

I agree, the only rebirth skill I will be giving to 2nd classes is preserve for reasons hopefully everyone will understand (like disallowing double client making it impossible to give a skill to yourself).

Preserveless Plagiarism is a pain in the donkey, but won't this skew up the skilltree build for lots of players? Are you going to put this in as a quest skill or just an ordinary skill?

[horo]

Ordinary, same place as stalker skilltree, so requiring intimidate 10. >Here's an example of what you could get, still less restricting than going for strip weapon with job level 50~ the one additional skillpoint won't make or break any rogue builds.