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Author Topic: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.  (Read 15611 times)

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Offline Skotlex

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #30 on: Aug 13, 2008, 05:30 am »
Also, i know this sounds egotistical but.....to work hard all the time on a server and never getting to go ingame and to see if people like/dislike your new updates takes the joy out of working on the server. I take great pride making my players happy or atleast not bored. Thats a good reason why Devs should have GM accounts.
Uh. Are you implying that the game maintainers/developers would never play their own damn-game if they didn't have a GM account? Isn't that.... a ridiculous statement?

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Offline Pandora

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #31 on: Aug 13, 2008, 09:10 am »
Firefly had some good points, some server do have pointlessly too many people in their staff, I'm not saying otherwise. But I think a 2 people staff is a minimum, like I said what if you have to go on vacation? or if you get sick? or just plain old need a break for real life issues to solve? It's good to have at least 1 person you can rely on in case of problems so your server is always taken care of. Also having more than 1 perspective is usually good to resolve issues.

Bulba: while I understand your point and I know you play on a no-gm server, most players on private servers like to see GMs around in game. It makes your server look active and alive, players like to chat with GMs, it may seem silly but it's true. Also, many prefer to ask a GM directly in game rather than making a support ticket or writing a post in forums. While it's 100% time more practical for the staff to get a support ticket that each gm see it's hard to get players to actually get out of the game and do it.

Anti-Static Foam Cleaner is right, more people does mean more ideas, but you can still prioritize and say "this idea is good, but let's keep it for next year and concentrate on project xyz for now". So more people mean more idea, but doesn't mean you gotta do them all, also not everyone is equally imaginative, so some wont really put ideas on the table, but will still work hard on the tasks assigned to them.
heRO is a great friendly, pre-renweal, unique and fun server with a great community, give it a try!



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Descent

  • Guest
Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #32 on: Aug 13, 2008, 02:14 pm »
Hell I think Firefly was being generous. It's basically you don't need ANY GMs but if you you want to do events or enforce rules for than use one at the most. Hell if you need to get on a GM account to deal with an issue you have pretty much admitted that you aren't doing a good job as a developer. And isn't that the point from the server creators end? Isn't game-design/developing the whole reason you set one up or are using something as robust as eA and not just setting up a half-assed WoW server? If there is some problem with KSing why would you want to go through screenshots and ban people instead of inventing a creative system to stop it? Why spawn mobs with a command when you can create a mob invasion system?

As well nothing in the post said anything about not having multiple developers. I don't know why people give out GM accounts willy nilly, just because someone is your best friend, coded some event or set up your website doesn't mean they need to be "rewarded" with a GM account. That is really the issue here, not that you can't have someone code in poring races for you because you got other priorities. Very little actually needs to be done in game, and as much as I love everyones vague philosophical points about "one man not being and army" and "rah-rah teamwork", I'm not actually seeing any actual reasons being given that you need more than one GM at the very most (and even that is pushing it!)

Edit: Oh wait Pandora did get into specifics (figures!). Let's go point by point then:

Technical Support: Chatroom, forums whatever, totally no need for GMs.
KS: That would seem pretty simple, don't reward exp if you aren't the first player to hit the monster and aren't in the same party as well as probably have the mob be disowned when the player isn't on screen or something (Skot did something similar with loot on Mou)
Spammers/Insulting: Just have ignore work on all forms of chat. Hell if you want to get fun with the system since your on a larger server you could have it be that certain users are auto-ignored by default when enough people set ignore (though boy does that sound dangerous).
Bot check: Again could be player controlled, and hell some people are so zealous about bot hunting I'm surprised more servers have not just given those frequent screenshoters the ability to do it themselves. That or you know...actual gameplay solutions to discourage botters (but that gets more out of the kRO mould when you start doing that).
Events: As Firefly said, all that stuff can be done by NPCs or hell just run by the players. Certainly the last thing you want to do is have anyone spawning items and money...that just breeds begging.

Cool, I guess we're all eA devs now and are fully capable of doing what you suggest.

Are you capable of doing what you suggest?

Offline Pandora

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #33 on: Aug 13, 2008, 02:28 pm »
He's got a point, we're not all like the mighty Skotlex ^_^;
heRO is a great friendly, pre-renweal, unique and fun server with a great community, give it a try!



Click here to find out more about heRO!

Offline Skotlex

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #34 on: Aug 13, 2008, 02:43 pm »
He's got a point, we're not all like the mighty Skotlex ^_^;

The OP is talking originally about stock eA servers that have little in the way of customizations. You know, the way most servers start like? It has nothing to do with things like MouRO or HeRO, it's a lot more about RO servers that are a lot closer to official servers, but with a few config changes. You don't need a team for that, that's what I understood from his post.

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Offline bulbasteve

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #35 on: Aug 13, 2008, 06:22 pm »
Bulba: while I understand your point and I know you play on a no-gm server, most players on private servers like to see GMs around in game. It makes your server look active and alive, players like to chat with GMs, it may seem silly but it's true. Also, many prefer to ask a GM directly in game rather than making a support ticket or writing a post in forums. While it's 100% time more practical for the staff to get a support ticket that each gm see it's hard to get players to actually get out of the game and do it.

But then why do they need to be actual GMs? Give them a sprite and a special announce when they log in or whatever, but why would your glorified help desk need to be able to spawn items or summon mobs?

Hell why should ANY of them be the special GM class and be able to get crazy stats? If people insist on having powers they should only be given conservatively for what their role on the team is and as additions to normal accounts and not special ones.

Descent: Me? No. But half the things I used were done on Mou already and even the original poster talked about simple things like perfect ignore.

Sure a script soloution for something like bot-hunting would be only in Skots league but most of the stuff seems pretty easy, and if it isn't do you really need a GM because someone is say, KSing? Maybe the players should just grow up for most of it.

And if it's more serious like botting then what point is there for a GM account? People hunt bots and send in screenshots so most of the time people aren't banning on a GM-account anyway, they are banning as the server owner. Rarely is there anything a GM sees first hand, and you would certainly be a bad GM if you banned first and asked questions later.

Skot: Well sure but aside events I have not heard of anything that actually needs to be done on an actual GM account. And if they were really a kRO clone server which isn't about the elegant coding solutions why would they be doing so many damn events anyway? I mean geez back in the stone age of iRO I played for a solid year before I even saw one event (and I think there was all of two GMs for the whole game of a few thousand people!) and that was just monster invasions and like one game of hide and seek that I ever saw on my years playing. The GMs were busy doing their job...you know, cause thats the point of GMs, they bot hunt and ban guys, they aren't there to chitchat.

It's funny that so many servers call themselves "professional" when they both don't actually know anything about coding and if they are a stock server they sure don't act like the actual real servers.

Offline Pandora

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #36 on: Aug 14, 2008, 08:55 am »
He's got a point, we're not all like the mighty Skotlex ^_^;

The OP is talking originally about stock eA servers that have little in the way of customizations. You know, the way most servers start like? It has nothing to do with things like MouRO or HeRO, it's a lot more about RO servers that are a lot closer to official servers, but with a few config changes. You don't need a team for that, that's what I understood from his post.
Yeah but what bulba is saying is that with a "few modifications" you don't need GMs, modifications like mouro, which are not necessarily easy for the average admin. I think I can do my fair share of coding, but not everyone can, I thought eA made an emulator so that most people don't have to play in the source code you know? xD

@Bulba there are different levels of GM, I wholeheartedly agree that someone doing only support/bot checks needs level 20 gm (no @item/@monster), but he's still a GM, in the sense of the title.

Most bots on my server are found by gm who do a round of "bot check" on each player online, sure there are a few found by players too but not the majority. We have lots of events too and that requires GM. Each server works differently and that's fine, some server might pull it off with just 1 GM, and some can't, different philosophies require different kind of staff.

Do you really need a GM because someone is say, KSing? Yes you can need a gm to solve that. If the person only does it once, who cares it can be an honest mistake, but some people make it a habit to be as disagreeable as possible until they get banned, yes players "can" ignore it, but if it's really overboard they shouldn't have to, they should be able to play and have fun without having their experience ruined by someone else.

As for chitchating, what seems useless/unprofessional to one person may be fun for another, many players like to chat with GMs, I find it kinda funny too, because in the end the GM is just another player but with a fancy suit, but I guess they feel special or something.
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2008, 09:01 am by Pandora »
heRO is a great friendly, pre-renweal, unique and fun server with a great community, give it a try!



Click here to find out more about heRO!

Descent

  • Guest
Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #37 on: Aug 14, 2008, 12:07 pm »

But then why do they need to be actual GMs? Give them a sprite and a special announce when they log in or whatever, but why would your glorified help desk need to be able to spawn items or summon mobs?

Hell why should ANY of them be the special GM class and be able to get crazy stats? If people insist on having powers they should only be given conservatively for what their role on the team is and as additions to normal accounts and not special ones.

Descent: Me? No. But half the things I used were done on Mou already and even the original poster talked about simple things like perfect ignore.

Sure a script soloution for something like bot-hunting would be only in Skots league but most of the stuff seems pretty easy, and if it isn't do you really need a GM because someone is say, KSing? Maybe the players should just grow up for most of it.

And if it's more serious like botting then what point is there for a GM account? People hunt bots and send in screenshots so most of the time people aren't banning on a GM-account anyway, they are banning as the server owner. Rarely is there anything a GM sees first hand, and you would certainly be a bad GM if you banned first and asked questions later.

Skot: Well sure but aside events I have not heard of anything that actually needs to be done on an actual GM account. And if they were really a kRO clone server which isn't about the elegant coding solutions why would they be doing so many damn events anyway? I mean geez back in the stone age of iRO I played for a solid year before I even saw one event (and I think there was all of two GMs for the whole game of a few thousand people!) and that was just monster invasions and like one game of hide and seek that I ever saw on my years playing. The GMs were busy doing their job...you know, cause thats the point of GMs, they bot hunt and ban guys, they aren't there to chitchat.

It's funny that so many servers call themselves "professional" when they both don't actually know anything about coding and if they are a stock server they sure don't act like the actual real servers.

Hey, bulba. Private servers vary from one to the next. There's no right or wrong way to do anything. What works for MouRO might not work for Pandora's server, and what works for CorrosiveRO might not work for ShoopDaWoopRO, so on and so forth. Granted, I'm just as guilty for the first posts I made in this thread as well. The way you come off, you sound like one of those people who saw some server corruption and are now on some sort of campaign to stop it...

I think I can easily go out on a limb and say that nobody really cares how you run your server, same like nobody really cares how I or anybody else do it. We do what works for us, whatever, we don't need to be pegged "unprofessional" because of how server owners choose to do things.

To be honest, the whole one GM thing is a bit unrealistic, but oh look...opinion.

Quote from: bulbasteve
But then why do they need to be actual GMs? Give them a sprite and a special announce when they log in or whatever, but why would your glorified help desk need to be able to spawn items or summon mobs?

Hell why should ANY of them be the special GM class and be able to get crazy stats? If people insist on having powers they should only be given conservatively for what their role on the team is and as additions to normal accounts and not special ones.

My, you've shown me the light. I'll go revamp my staff right now.
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2008, 02:36 pm by Descent »

Offline Pandora

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #38 on: Aug 15, 2008, 08:19 am »
Well part of that he's saying is basically that one way to avoid some corruption is to give your gm only as much power as they need to do their job, and that part I do agree with.
heRO is a great friendly, pre-renweal, unique and fun server with a great community, give it a try!



Click here to find out more about heRO!

Offline Tira

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #39 on: Aug 16, 2008, 07:07 pm »
Well part of that he's saying is basically that one way to avoid some corruption is to give your gm only as much power as they need to do their job, and that part I do agree with.

^ This. When you get a bunch of incompetent "staff" running amok on your server and abusing commands they don't need on a whim, you have a problem. I've said this before, but no GM needs @item (and @item is just the tip of the iceberg) - which is why, as far as I'm concerned, it's an admin-only command. Same with about 90% of the others. I don't necessarily agree with the OP - but I also generally have 600+ players online at a time, and one GM would get a little overwhelmed. (To emphasise this, about 0.7 seconds after logging in-game my screen generally looks something like this:)



But, the above also illustrates that in the vast majority of cases, most instances of a player looking for a GM in game are questions that can be easily answered in 10 seconds, and I'd rather my forums weren't cluttered with 273738392 of these. Most of the questions could also be answered by another player in town - but a GM sprite is easily recognisable and instantly associated with someone acting in a support capacity, so it's the preferable alternative as far as I'm concerned. But, similarly, a glorified helpdesk GM does not need more than the absolute bare minimum of commands - @goto, @warp, @broadcast and similar, and nothing beyond this.

On any moderate to large server, Enforcement GMs are also 100% necessary - however much you do to counteract it, there will always be bots, and these should be dealt with as quickly as possible. Obviously, this means handing out some higher level commands to certain staff members - but this is also why I make sure all Enforcement staff document religiously every single instance of punishment they hand out. This helps to ensure things aren't being abused, but it also protects the staff themselves - it's pretty hard to contest a punishment if I can pull up a report detailing exactly why they were punished with timestamps, screenshots and IP addresses in about 5 seconds.

Going wildly off-topic, cutting this short.

tldr version; GMs might not be 100% necessary on all servers, but they are useful. It's just down to whomever is in charge to make sure they're acting responsibly and limiting what they can and cannot do to the absolutely necessities for their role.

Offline Windstar

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #40 on: Aug 21, 2008, 05:43 am »
i think that if a server gets run by one gm, he will die in less then a month :3

Offline Loki

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #41 on: Aug 21, 2008, 06:31 am »
Heh.

I've played on a server where there is only 1 admin. The server lasted for 6 months and only closed because the admin had to further his study. (Note: The server owner hosted his server at home)
Quote
Whatever floats your boat.

Offline Pandora

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #42 on: Aug 21, 2008, 09:43 am »
Well that's the thing if you only have 1 person, the server is solely dependent on that admin, and if he/she loses interest in RO or cannot continue for real life issues, injuries or whatnot the server goes bye bye. If you have 2 people at least, if one decides to leave the other is still there and can look for a co-staff to help.

From an original team of 6 admin on my server I'm the only one left, 4 left to go play WOW and the other had to concentrate on university. The staff changed a lot, but the server is still there.

It's best not to put all your eggs in one basket, even if it can technically work out with just 1 admin, it's risky.
« Last Edit: Aug 21, 2008, 09:45 am by Pandora »
heRO is a great friendly, pre-renweal, unique and fun server with a great community, give it a try!



Click here to find out more about heRO!

Offline Melona

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #43 on: Aug 21, 2008, 07:04 pm »
Well, I currently am the only person in charge of everything on Melona Ragnarok Online, with 25-35 players online, oh no vendors, I think I am capable of running the server just fine, although I had promised the players and myself that, once the server reaches 50 players, there would be more staff members. :3

Best Regards,
Melona~

Offline Flow

Re: A truly good server should not need more than one GM.
« Reply #44 on: Aug 21, 2008, 07:19 pm »
This would really depend on the person itself.

Some server aspects would come into play, drama, population.

But in the end it would depend on the Admin's control level, if he/she can handle everything, has the time to do it all, and dealing with the stress.

I believe in having a GM team, people that really want to contribute to the server and want to see your goal met. Not having to do all the work yourself, but building trust and relying on others.