Talon RO - The game, the experience, and the staff

[liuYF]

Wall of text incoming, but if you're here looking to invest your time playing on this server, or a bystander who wants to munch on popcorns while reading, then read on. TL;DR provided below.

I started playing TalonRO way back in 2013 until 2017, it was my main server until I got burnt out, and the next years, I only pop in to play the seasonal events, check out the big updates and so. The outbreak has me with plenty of time on my hands for the previous months, and I was hoping to get back to it. Personally, I don't have any bad experience with the previous and current staff (word travels), but what has transpired recently has left me with disappointment and a bad taste in my mouth. I will be writing them below. I like this server, enjoyed my time, and have a strong attachment to it. However, the bad aftertaste is intolerable, and in GM Boreas' words, "If you don't like it, then leave."

Let's talk about the server and what they offer.

Spoiler

TalonRO leans heavy on customization, with god items (limited access to it currently) and MvP cards being made available for everyone. You can be as strong as the server allows you to, there are a lot of builds that you can or make with the availability of all cards to be purchased in the in-game Talon Cash shop, with budget and mechanics just being your limit; the server has their own calculator which makes this helpful, I have spent hours creating builds on it, and it works fine for it's purpose. As of writing this, there has been promised changes on the god items (SQI) for years, I've already heard about it in 2014. However, I think that's what they currently have on their plate, and I'm leaving the server without seeing the changes, I don't think I have the right to give any more details.

Content wise, TalonRO has plenty of custom PvM content to offer, most are automated, while a few new ones are spearheaded and manually ran by GM Lance (and a few others?). I have nothing but praise for how GM Lance has handled running these instances. I haven't been to all, but I've been around for Nightmare Rifts and some of the Battle of the Nine content. One of these instances has spanned for up to 36 people, but usually, it's for two parties worth - 24 people. These contents are what kept me playing and coming back for a long time: the need to get better gears, play better and build a good relationship with the people that I played with.

PvP used to be more active years ago, but it has been seeing some action lately. WoE offers three modes to play in, Non-Trans Vanilla, Trans Vanilla, and Unrestricted. I haven't played WoE in this server, but I wanted to play Vanilla. The barrier that has been limiting me to was the supplies issue. I prefer to spend the limited time I have on PvM gears, as the server's focus is on that. There has been a lot of discussion with regards to Vanilla supplies in the WoE channel in their discord, feel free to read through, it's always been an issue for years. Battlegrounds is Vanilla mode, and it's in an okay position, you can't expect a game to be on 24/7, but it's there. Vanilla in this server is a tad different though, plenty of headgears and cards that would be hard to obtain in vanilla servers, are still available to purchase with Talon Coins.

Market is stable, prices have been at similar points during all the years I played, except for some factors like season limited ones, item not being available in TC shop, and unavailability of Seals (to make SQIs) currently. The new currency and market, Valkyrie Coin and Valkyrie Bazaar(?), made available from clearing custom contents are in development. The price of gears in there is unreasonable. It will take almost 1 year of doing Ancient Tower to able to afford a Diablos Robe, though that's another issue that I won't discuss. Presently, the server's total population hovers around 1600+-, but before the world has come to the state it is now, I've seen it drop to low 850s for a while, as to how much of those are autotraders, dual clients or whatever, I do not know.

[close]

This is the nice flower field that TalonRO offers, and I feel like I have played long enough to give an overview to how the server gameplay is. Like stated, I like the server and what they offer, but the more I spend time in here, the longer I regret my time, as I dug deeper in the flower field, the more rotten it gets. Let's dig.

Spoiler

It started when I felt like the admins made a certain person a GM (not anymore, thankfully). I won't be dropping any names, but the said person already has a questionable reputation among the community. Having played with him once, he's made me feel uneasy with how he talks to people. I thought it was just me being nitpicky or difference in culture, I've heard other people having problems with him as well. The rumors that he's been creeping out on girls were around, too. I, a guy, already feel uncomfortable around him, I can't imagine how it must be for the girls he plays with. Maybe these things don't have anything to do with him being a GM, maybe people who found him shady aren't vocal enough, it just never sat well with me.

To unlock Valhalla, the place to make SQIs (god items) and to unlock their bonuses, players need to complete the Seals Quest. With the launch of Project Iduna, seals have been completely disabled (almost a year now). Meaning, people who had seals quest pending or not done, will not be able to - maybe that will change soon. Sure, these players can still purchase these SQIs (for a higher price) and play with it, but the power gap between people who has bonuses unlocked and those who don't is significant. I am not affected by this since I've had them unlocked for my characters, however, I've seen newer players who get discouraged to play because of it. Generally speaking, I find how they handled Project Iduna unsatisfactory, even with the beta tests. The beta testers were only a small cluster of people (sign ups were open for a limited time), though when other people offered to help with testing at a latter date, they were rejected. Though all in all, it looks like the update has been working out well for what they wanted to achieve with it.

[close]

Having played for a while, I've had my fair share of hearing stories about people having to deal with sending support ticket about their concerns. Most would avoid doing that if possible, because of how dismissive they can be. I have been with different group of people from the times I have been playing, and majority seems to dislike interaction with the administrators. It feels comparatively different from another RO that I am playing, where the administrator/s are approachable and communicative.

Spoiler

These are the recent cases that have left me dumbfounded in a negative way, I can't stomach how they handled the recent bans that happened. I am just an outsider from what is happening, but for a while, there's this sinking feeling of paranoia where you can get banned/penalized for anything, and the chance of appealing is slim. One case I've heard about would be someone getting banned over screenshot of a chat in discord as an evidence for using macros. Said person was able to successfully appeal for it and is now unbanned. Guilty until proven innocent, perhaps.

[close]

As for another different case (though being banned almost at the same time, and for same reasons), there were rumors going on, and to confirm myself, I reached out to the accused person to talk about it. Working in the legal department, I needed to scratch that itch of getting to bottom of things. Let's call the accused 'X'. X has been banned for using macros/autoclickers. I don't know X in game, nor have I played with her. I reserved my judgment and approached her with a clear mind. And X shared with me the dialogues between the support tickets:

Spoiler

First ticket: X asks for more information for her ban, as the ban states using macro/autoclickers.
GM's response: Report from someone showing crystal clear evidence of using macros and autoclickers for a long time.
Ticket gets closed.

Second ticket: X asking for evidence, saying that she could have been framed/mistaken for someone else. (Personal thought: Not the first time someone gets banned for mistaken identity has happened tbh)
GM's response: We will not reveal the identity of the reporter. We can assure you that you were not framed or mistaken for someone else. We never ban people based on assumptions.
Ticket gets closed.

Third ticket: Does not care about the person's identity, but wants to get an idea of how the evidence is, gameplay proof or a text-based one.
GM's response: This case has been closed. We don't ban based on assumptions, but solid evidence. We have been around for 12 years, and trust me when we ban someone it's justified.

[close]

Here are my personal thoughts on this case.

Spoiler

If the proof has been around for a long time in-game, why would the reporter's identity matter? Shouldn't the reporter have been an accomplice too if they have known for a long time? If it's also a gameplay video, it should be easy for the accused or whoever has other documents to edit themselves out as to not leak their identity. Even then, won't it be difficult to prove usage of macros/autoclickers since the server has a hardcapped skill delay? The grounds for not listening to appeals and closing the case immediately would be when X has been caught on the act, but she was not - or when they have an extensive log to prove 'a long time.'

And again, to reiterate, 'we don't ban based on assumptions,' (but we WILL ban you over a discord screenshot of you using macros, and sorry, our evidence was folly, therefore you are unbanned.) I would love to know their basis on closing this case, because the more I look at it, the more dodgy it gets. They even refuse to have a dialogue with the accused, and I've seen her appeals, if the evidences truly aren't ingame videos or being caught redhanded, then I don't see why they don't even communicate properly to refute her appeals. Guilty until proven innocent, and that is if they give you a chance to prove your innocence.

She's left out her personal feelings on this and merely discussed with me the exchange. In her defense, her bios haven't brewed anything and she has gameplay videos to show her playing, and we were both out of ideas what else would you be doing in game to have a need for macroing for.

[close]

Bonus story: banned for mistaken identity.

Spoiler

Person C has one of his game accounts banned for repeated and multiple deadbranch reports, the admins have it on their logs. In reality, the person that was using the deadbranch (person F) was someone who has a similar name to Person C. Person C then contacts an admin in their discord to ask about the ban. Admin provides proof of their server logs, but something doesn't add up. Person C stated that people have gotten him mixed up with person F, simply because they share a similar name. Person C then paid Person F to change his name so that this can be cleared, and person F agrees. But the nasty deadbranching that Person F did was put into Person C, simply because the admins can't be bothered to check the game account/forum account log of Person F before banning; or that they could have checked Person C's logs for attempts.

[close]

They have been around for 12 years, so they must be doing something right in one way or another. I am not saying they are wrong, that is up to your judgment. I am merely stating facts and details about what has transpired, as I've been hearing rumors about it. X isn't vocal about what happened, so players were free to come up with their own speculations. She finds everything that happened silly, and any actions taken by other people on this case (much like this is), she has nothing to do with it. This is just an example of how you can expect to be treated in the server. The sinking feeling might or might not have been paranoia, having to deal with this kind of player support when you play long enough adds to it - and such, why I don't want to dig in any deeper into this stinking hole and drop the server completely.


TL;DR: Server gud on the surface, but play long enough that you'll need to deal with dismissive admins, no gud. Get banned, roll a dice if you can appeal or case closed. They take discord screenshots as evidence, I can teach you how to edit discord conversations in the app itself without photoshop, ask me how.

[Boreas]

Uhm, no offense, but bans are not based on name sbut ids. The dead branch logs also work with ids, which are unique and cannot be mixed up. I personally have no clue which case this is about, but nobody gets banned because of a name mixup.

Not going to comment on the other "cases" because you aren't involved, didn't see the evidence and everything you said is based on assumptions.

I am merely stating facts and details about what has transpired

You actually only re-posted what you heard from others. Rumors. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks for the rest of the review, cheers!

[Phanneh]

Just to clarify:

Spoiler

These are the recent cases that have left me dumbfounded in a negative way, I can't stomach how they handled the recent bans that happened. [...] Two cases I've heard about would be someone getting banned over screenshot of a chat in discord as an evidence for using macros. Said person was able to successfully appeal for it and is now unbanned.  Guilty until proven innocent, perhaps.

[close]

You're saying
1)There are two cases where someone was allegedly banned over a discord screenshot, AND
..... i) In both cases the ban was issued for using macros, BUT
2) In both cases, the person was able to successfully appeal and is now unbanned?

And then down here:

As for the other case, there were rumors going on, and to confirm myself, I reached out to the accused person to talk about it. Working in the legal department, I needed to scratch that itch of getting to bottom of things. Let's call the accused 'X'.

X has been banned for using macros/autoclickers. [...]

Spoiler

First ticket: X asks for more information for her ban, as the ban states using macro/autoclickers.
GM's response: Report from someone showing crystal clear evidence of using macros and autoclickers for a long time.
Ticket gets closed.

Second ticket: X asking for evidence, saying that she could have been framed/mistaken for someone else. (Personal thought: Not the first time someone gets banned for mistaken identity has happened tbh)
GM's response: We will not reveal the identity of the reporter. We can assure you that you were not framed or mistaken for someone else. We never ban people based on assumptions.
Ticket gets closed.

Third ticket: Does not care about the person's identity, but wants to get an idea of how the evidence is, gameplay proof or a text-based one.
GM's response: This case has been closed. We don't ban based on assumptions, but solid evidence. We have been around for 12 years, and trust me when we ban someone it's justified.

[close]

You're saying that in this instance (perhaps a third instance?) a person was banned for using macros, but the evidence used was not disclosed, thus violating a simple and obvious rule of fairness/natural justice, specifically the rule that involves knowing the case against one so that one can respond to it?

[Sachimi]

You said you work in a legal department, but you can't understand why the name of people who make reports would be kept anonymous? Duh, retribution. That's obvious.

If you had serious concerns about the behaviour of one of the staff, then you should have reported it.

I haven't seen anyone being paranoid or thinking they'll be banned for something small except the people who do something ban-worthy.

[liuYF]

You said you work in a legal department, but you can't understand why the name of people who make reports would be kept anonymous? Duh, retribution. That's obvious.

If you had serious concerns about the behaviour of one of the staff, then you should have reported it.

Mr. Whiteknight,

You must have misunderstood when I mentioned anything about the identity of the reporter, although I have it in bold already. It does not matter. If GMs have the evidence in-game, they should easily be able to turn it into a GIF and just leave the accused out.

Ah, I should report a staff for making me feel uneasy? I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thinking it's just me nitpicking on people or a difference on culture. You must've missed the twitter drama why a certain someone is no longer a GM.

Just to clarify:

You're saying
1)There are two cases where someone was allegedly banned over a discord screenshot, AND
..... i) In both cases the ban was issued for using macros, BUT
2) In both cases, the person was able to successfully appeal and is now unbanned?

And then down here:

You're saying that in this instance (perhaps a third instance?) a person was banned for using macros, but the evidence used was not disclosed, thus violating a simple and obvious rule of fairness/natural justice, specifically the rule that involves knowing the case against one so that one can respond to it?

Two different cases. Both cases were for using macros, one was successfully able to appeal.

Down there is the second case, not a third one. I apologize for the confusion.

Yes, no evidences were provided. I know they rarely provide evidences, since people can make loopholes out of it and/or try to bypass. Even then, since it's macroing/autoclickers, with the hardcapped skill delay, it's very difficult to prove if a person is using it or not. Keybind recordings to gaming keyboards/mouse will act similarly to what key strokes you recorded to it, it will not bypass the server-wide skill delay. Therefore, I'm not sure how hard it is to show the evidence? If X can replicate it whilst recording her keyboard and mouse movements in real-time, and she has already offered to do so in her appeal - but then again, GMs just closed the case without even replying to her appeals.

Uhm, no offense, but bans are not based on name sbut ids. The dead branch logs also work with ids, which are unique and cannot be mixed up. I personally have no clue which case this is about, but nobody gets banned because of a name mixup.

Not going to comment on the other "cases" because you aren't involved, didn't see the evidence and everything you said is based on assumptions.

You actually only re-posted what you heard from others. Rumors. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks for the rest of the review, cheers!

Rofl. I'm not going to start a fire involving other people, but if I can get their approval to use their screenshots, then I'll have receipts for this, even the deadbranch one. It doesn't seem to worth though, maybe if this gets enough traction. Who knows what you will do, as you've already banned a person for having lllllll as their character name.

X has given me free reign on the screenshots related to her case, 'do whatever you want with it.' Though we have no use for it currently as this, being the biggest issue, they've refused to comment on. And what makes you think I haven't seen the evidence, especially the one getting banned over discord screenshot. That one was truly juicy. You guys don't even want to reply directly to the person involved's case, refusing to re-open the case. Is it that hard to admit when you've made a mistake?

[Strikephantom]

Uhm, no offense, but bans are not based on name sbut ids. The dead branch logs also work with ids, which are unique and cannot be mixed up. I personally have no clue which case this is about, but nobody gets banned because of a name mixup.

Not going to comment on the other "cases" because you aren't involved, didn't see the evidence and everything you said is based on assumptions.

You actually only re-posted what you heard from others. Rumors. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks for the rest of the review, cheers!

You're going to dismiss them as rumours just like that when people have seen those conversations for all three cases that liuYF talked about. It still baffles me how the admins GMs were so uncooperative with X's case. X couldn't even get a word in before they closed the ticket and still refusing to hear X's side. It's not like X was being rude either when talking to the GMs nor is X a rude person in general.

They should, at the very least show the evidence. The person reporting X could be edited out. Who knows, the reasons used to justify X's bans could just be rumours too at this point.

[Phanneh]

Two different cases. Both cases were for using macros, one was successfully able to appeal.

Down there is the second case, not a third one. I apologize for the confusion.

I appreciate the clarification!

Yes, no evidences were provided.

So, in the second case, then, it was NOT a discord screenshot that was the evidence?

Failure to provide evidence is a catastrophic and below amateur failure in due process, of course.

But the phrasing of the first post makes it seem as though there were two cases OF being banned USING a discord screenshot AS evidence.
If that's so for the second case, then it's known that "a discord screenshot" was the evidence.
If that's so, then... how is it known that a discord screenshot was the evidence, if no evidence was provided?

Was it just an error in phrasing, and in the second case, neither you nor X know what evidence was used to reach the conclusion?

[liuYF]

So, in the second case, then, it was NOT a discord screenshot that was the evidence?

Failure to provide evidence is a catastrophic and below amateur failure in due process, of course.

But the phrasing of the first post makes it seem as though there were two cases OF being banned USING a discord screenshot AS evidence.
If that's so for the second case, then it's known that "a discord screenshot" was the evidence.
If that's so, then... how is it known that a discord screenshot was the evidence, if no evidence was provided?

Was it just an error in phrasing, and in the second case, neither you nor X know what evidence was used to reach the conclusion?

My apologies. It was definitely an error in phrasing. I'll clarify that. Thanks for pointing that out.

X didn't receive any evidence. After the three ticket exchanges, they just dismissed it as case closed, with their only basis, in Boreas' words: 'a report from someone showing crystal clear evidence that you have been using macros and auto clickers for a long time now.' She also didn't receive any replies from the support ticket she has sent for appeal, despite not being shown the evidence. She's provided reasons for someone to frame her (if it was a discord exchange), and has offered gameplay videos to show her playing (even on spammy jobs like Sniper/High Wizard). But of course, why would you record if you were macroing? Why hasn't she been caught if, allegedly, she's been doing it for a long time, if the GMs have a fair way to prove the usage of macros? And most importantly, why is the case closed just like that? To repeat, guilty until proven innocent, and X wasn't even given a chance to prove her innocence.

[Phanneh]

Okay, understood; thankye!

If accurately represented, the failure shown by the first case is unfortunate but not fatal; obviously they should verify before a ban, not after.

If accurately represented, the failure shown by the second case is beyond unfortunate indeed, and people should certainly be aware of it.

[Nubblyn]

I made an account just to comment lol. Great write up and good read. Its worth my popcorn

Chiming in to confirm that the cases mentioned are not rumors lol. Ask the right people in the server and you will know. They are all true and its absurd how they are claiming it to be but still 0 comment about X's case

Not a good look tbh

Maybe you guys need to take this to twitter or social media to get a response . See how quick they responded in the twitter drama with GM ***** this is good tho and more players should be aware of this

[liuYF]

If accurately represented, the failure shown by the second case is beyond unfortunate indeed, and people should certainly be aware of it.

I can guarantee that this is accurately represented as I have the screenshots of the support tickets & Discord DMs (attempting to reach out) related to the case.

Why so quiet from GM? are they busy with seals, summer race, more rumors ?

They're refusing to comment on the case since I'm not involved, but not like the person involved got any chance to get a decent dialogue from them either.

[Seirumors]

Hi, me here to second that post about that player being wrongfully banned.

I have been playing with her for several years and her gameplay was definitely a pro player.
I've also seen screenshots of how the GMs were responding to the case and it disgusted me how they can just decide and dismiss a case with merely a discord screenshot, which can be easily forged.

Yep Mr. Admin is dismissing everything here by stating everything is just a rumor is also very disgusting, as always.
But your ban was based on an easily edited source too.

[Nubblyn]

i know right. many people offer her gears to borrow and come back play. because many people want her back. but how can you come and play again after this treatment? lol. so unfair and not justified. we get that no evidence shown for ban but, no appeal and case close immediately? i am curious how the other people in case feel when boreas say what happened with them are just rumor lol

i know that this happened a month ago, and real story has come out now. we want answers, my popcorns are getting stale already 

!!! i just hear that this thread got posted in tro discord but get deleted. why so fishy? kekeke 

hou. many asskisser in discord too, thinking their gms cant do anything wrong. come defend them here, not in your tro discord safe space 

[arivanandan]

Can confirm that the High GMs (Boreas and Seiren) are obstinate, narrow-minded and oft-times have no clue what's happening with the game / how things work. Suggestions are closed without a thought, discussions are never to be had. Basically, you can't reason with these two. You talk reason to them, you show them code that makes it happen, or anything else along this line of action expect it to have absolutely no impact. It's almost surprising that they've been able to keep the server running for so long.

I've had more than a handful of friends get banned over nothing. The GM team is corrupt (I submit a report, the next day the reported guy comes and asks me whazzup ***** to my face) but the high GMs obviously do not believe that anything like that could ever happen. Their minds are too single-track, it's either a yes or a no, and once it happens that's that in most cases. (Corrupt only in this fashion, nothing major because thankfully they know how to check logs.) But the way they handle reports is always open-and-shut. They don't deal with it on a per-case basis which is absolutely terrible because some people get away with really bad griefing while others get banned for nothing.

You'll probably never run into any of this if you simply farm away in Geffenia and Sleepers, but hats and AFK in town (which is what 90% of the population does / did). But if you get anywhere near competitive end-game this is bound to happen. So there's a good chance that the majority of the player-base is oblivious to any of this happening but when you get there it happens all around you. As a result people will refute that this could be, because it's not their truth, but it is the truth.

tl;dr Boreas and Seiren can't be reasoned with but they run the show; wouldn't want to play in this server if I had a choice (but dammit it has the best PvM);

Also there's some hope! They've inducted a new High GM who is sensible 

[liuYF]

^ Completely agree with arivanandan. Very good points, in all honesty. At this point, I don't think it's an exaggeration to state that it has been GM Lance's tremendous effort that keep people playing. I can't imagine what people would be doing now PvM wise without Lance events and contents he comes up with. Lance has been carrying this server so hard for years.

It's no surprise that people are still adamant about this being real, and dismissing the claims (in the server discord), simply because they don't play in that competitive end-game level. However, these are all truths, perhaps not something they will experience as long as they stay in their flower fields, so they brush it off as salty claims.

i know right. many people offer her gears to borrow and come back play. because many people want her back. but how can you come and play again after this treatment? lol. so unfair and not justified. we get that no evidence shown for ban but, no appeal and case close immediately? i am curious how the other people in case feel when boreas say what happened with them are just rumor lol

i know that this happened a month ago, and real story has come out now. we want answers, my popcorns are getting stale already 

!!! i just hear that this thread got posted in tro discord but get deleted. why so fishy? kekeke 

hou. many asskisser in discord too, thinking their gms cant do anything wrong. come defend them here, not in your tro discord safe space 

I have actually offered her my whole account with the gears, in the case that she might want to play again, as I'm completely done with the server, and I'm not surprised that other people would extend their help if she plans to start over. But she insists that she has no reason to do so, unless the incident is properly dealt with. However, I'm not hopeful that a case like hers will be the last, they are being evasive about everything here.

Ah, I was sent a screenshot of it being posted in the Discord and deleted a while after. My review is constructive, truthful and detailed; I talked about the server properly, and how the staff is, like my thread title says, is it not? And to those that defended the server in the Discord, I'd have to agree. Why not come here and give your thoughts as well so we can have a proper discussion?