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RateMyServer.Net => Server Reviews => Topic started by: Veresu on Feb 28, 2013, 05:32 PM

Title: AghartaRO
Post by: Veresu on Feb 28, 2013, 05:32 PM
Allow me to just clarify that I normally do not write things like these, let alone a review but I feel there are some things that needed to be said about this particular server. I will try to not make this long and will try to keep it brief as possible to the best of my abilities. So here it goes:

The Community

This is probably one of the main problems I've had with the server. Newbies tend to get the shaft, as I've seen many new faces come and go on a daily basis. The veterans of the server and even the admin, would drive away and shun new people. Newbies are usually never invited to get into groups, and are left to fend for themselves until their eventual departure. And while yes, the players of the server can roleplay effectively, it's not fun when everyone is segregated into their own little cliques.

Newbies are also required to be in the server's IRC, which is a usual thing for an RP server. However, it's fair warning to say that there will be a bit of hazing. It has happened to me before, but I was able to drone out the problem and not let it bother me. However, for others, it can be a real problem. The IRC itself, while it does has its fair share of arguments that are eventually dealt with, having a newbie witnessing this certainly leaves a bad impression. Overall, unless you have high endurance or patience and can deal with something like this, you'd otherwise have a bad taste in your mouth.

The Staff

While the staff, or rather the admin, is able to keep the server stable and lag free for the most part, that doesn't mean that they are a perfectly high-knit team. Before I departed, as far as I know, I believe it's the admin, a tech GM, and 1 (or 2) storytellers. An ST, is basically, someone who runs events and storylines, but the admin always gets the final say on everything. But even then, the events usually involve veteran players, again, going back to the clique cliche again. This leaves newbies being left out and having no involvement whatsoever. I myself tried to join some of these events, but even then, one particular ST seems to have some form of favoritism and only selects certain people.

When it comes to asking questions, be it server-related or RP-related, they are at least nice enough to answer them as far as I can tell. However, the admin tends to rebuff people for absolutely no reason at times.

The Events

The events are.. well, they're pretty lackluster, from the ones I've been involved in. Some were your typical run-of-the-mill expeditions, where you simply kill monsters and head on home. Some were just to further developed the clique's characters, while the extras were there to.. well, to be extras. And the events usually cannot involve everyone, leaving newbies again, getting the shaft once more. The events seem to be involved something that has happened long ago in the past, leaving new people wondering why they should care enough to even know about that or not having damn clue about it at all. Overall, the events lack creativity and the effort of involving other people, besides the clique, doesn't seem to be there at all.

The Wiki

This is where they call it 'their treasure box'. And I will admit, it is a useful tool to have especially for an RP server. It has all kinds of information, such as lore, characters, places, etc. However, while it is nice to have your own wiki page with your list of characters, this could become an annoyance for new players. As far as I read, the timeline seems to be incomplete and from the looks of things, there isn't seem to be a clear plot or setting of the server at all. There is at least, however, a Getting Started guide on its main page.

The Customs

If anything, I would have to say that this is the only positive thing I'd have to say about the server. There are NPCs that give you a costume item that allows you to change into any job class that you desire. There's also a wide selection of custom 'fake' headgears to the player's disposal, nulling the use of grinding items to get a certain hat that a player wants to get. The stylist NPC seems to also have the elven ears onto the heads, which I find is a very big plus I find. However, some of the hairstyles, look.. well rather odd-looking and misshapen. Overall, they also have their very own custom dungeon which has a very neat system. Though, of course this is a roleplaying server and leveling and grinding isn't suppose to be the main focus of the server in the first place.

My Final Thoughts

While my time was brief within in Agharta, I think I have said enough about what I thought about the server overall. If you're looking for a place to find RP, it's best to find it elsewhere as Agharta is certainly not the place to look for it. With a very unwelcoming community, disorganized staff and a lackluster setting, it makes me wonder how Agharta has lasted this long. It disgusts me completely, and my only regret now is not leaving earlier.

Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: yC on Mar 01, 2013, 10:41 PM
Thank you for the in depth review for Agharta, I always wanted to know more about this server.  It's one of its kind as an RP server.  I have a lot of respect for it.

Your review is a disappointment to my expectation unfortunately.  As an RP server and me as an outsider (not playing on the server but it caught my curiosity) I would really expect the community will be welcoming otherwise as you said how can they keep newbie around and keep the server growing.  I imagine this server deserve more players but maybe you pointed out the problem.

Did you mention how long you were on the server before leaving?  I can't recall reading it.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 01, 2013, 10:51 PM
RP servers naturally tend towards cliques and closed doors policies. It's an unfortunate side-effect of having running plot lines and character development. It's also an unfortunate side effect of terrible nerds and the two might admittedly be connected.

I didn't even know there were RP servers left, it's kind of amazing. There used to be like five or six active ones back in the day, now this one's the only one I really know now (and even then I just found out about it!).
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Veresu on Mar 01, 2013, 11:53 PM
Quote from: yC on Mar 01, 2013, 10:41 PM
Did you mention how long you were on the server before leaving?  I can't recall reading it.

I stayed there for about three months. I don't know if that's long enough to justify my reasons about the server itself. But I have seen enough to know what was wrong and what was right with Agharta. And while yes, it does have its positives, its negatives seemed to overpower it a whole lot more.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Geckiji on Mar 02, 2013, 12:09 AM
As a new player on Agharta, I would like to weigh in on this review, as it seems to put the "new player's experience" as the centerpiece for debate.

I have been at Agharta for nearly two weeks now and have yet to see or experience many of the problems you have detailed. My first experience with Agharta, in fact, was logging into the IRC to ask some questions and having one of the people there ask if I would like to be shown around Agharta firsthand. I have never felt myself "hazed", nor have I seen any other players hazed -- at worst, there is friendly bantering between the veteran players, in jest.

I participated in my first open RP less than a week of playing -- in which I was treated just like everyone else -- and was invited to watch an event (sign ups had since closed so as to prepare) not even half a week after I had joined. I have managed RP with a number of varied people (including veterans) and am actively pursuing opening up other avenues of RP with those I haven't done so yet.

I cannot say that everyone will have the same experience that I have, but I will say that, as a new member, I do not find what you have said to be accurate.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Edgewood on Mar 02, 2013, 12:57 AM
 Hi there.

As a member of the Agharta community whose tenure is nearly at the three year mark, I'd like to issue a rebuttal to Reevus's review of our server and community for all of its inaccuracies. I will never be so bold as to say that Agharta is without its fair share of problems, but the server and community have improved substantially since my first days there. On several occasions, I made preparations to permanently leave Agharta but found that the oft-cited gated communities of other RP servers were not as inviting or accommodating as the players of Agharta. Reevus and Fruit Pie both raise a fair point in criticizing this phenomenon, but it's not the status quo for Agharta. However, for all the bad press the server has gotten with this sole review, I must come forward as a respected and longtime member of the community and provide for the other side of this discussion. If you're going to come out dripping with libel, at least do so with some perspective.

The Community
I won't say that there aren't cliques in the community, but they are not anywhere near as insular as they could be in other places. I don't claim to be a part of any clique and I can get work done on the server simply by asking. Becoming a part of the community takes some initiative. You can't expect everything to fall into your lap on day one and the process of getting established is just the same as grinding away and getting stronger on a proper PvP/WoE server. If you don't intend to put the work in, then you can't complain when you don't get everything you want and this is not simply a word of advice regarding RP servers but rather a maxim for life in general. I spent a long time getting the sort of social clout I have today and I have it because I put in good work and got things done.

Furthermore, we do not require IRC presence. We never have. For logistical purposes, it's highly recommended if only because it makes it . You must have a forum account in order to be allowed to stay on the server (you are not required to post at all, the account is a formality), but that's about it as far as requirements go. And what's this I'm reading about hazing? Nothing we can say or do to anyone comes anywhere close to the standard definition for that choice verb. If the personalities are grating, then call a spade a spade and say "I didn't get along with the people there" instead of using such an extreme description. I was never hazed, I've never seen members get hazed and in stark contrast I've seen new people act like complete **** and be largely ignored for their behavior (not saying Reevus did this, but it's happened and that particular player is the only person the Admin has ever banned in the history of the server).

The Staff & The Events
Favoritism in Agharta is not nearly as bad as it was in the past before the community called it out and the guilty parties wound it down. We suffered from that at one point, I admit, no lies. We do not suffer for it now. Having spoken to the ST that Reevus came into conflict with, it became apparent that he had an issue with a level playing field as the two times he participated in dynamic events he did not seem to understand that another player-owned character is entitled to the same rights and responsibilities as he is and he tried to kill someone in-character without consulting the other author or even be tactful about it. That's not how that's done. Characters belong to their authors.
If you want to be involved in events, you can't just expect the ST to drop plot on you. In stark contrast, one of the STs of Aurora (Tensard) will readily provide side-events for new players in that community who want to take some initiative, so even in other servers you're generally going to be expected to put yourself out there and volunteer your time and effort. Do you know why characters like Cyrus, Leon and Toren get so much screen time? Their authors put in the work and get things done, being both objective-oriented and interested in progressing the story. If you don't raise a hand and say HEY I WANT TO HELP then you have no leg to stand on when you complain like this. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as the saying goes.

The Wiki
We don't call this a 'treasure box'. I don't know where that remark might have come from but it certainly wouldn't have been any of the people who actually edit it. Reevus's complaints about the timeline and setting are legit. I only know the setting's broad strokes by asking and roleplaying so he's absolutely right when he makes his claims. However, the wiki is full of useful information about the regions, countries, cultures and organizations within the setting and is by no means a small database. Character pages stack up to the hundreds and their level of detail varies from author to author. Organization pages are built so you have lore to use in-character. Our wiki is certainly functional enough to make up for what it lacks, but that doesn't mean Reevus is wrong about its weaknesses.

The Customs
Our customs are pretty f***' legit, so I agree with you here. Some of us still like to play RO proper from time to time so there's a very tiny economy but we're not a WoE server and nobody likes to PvP. As a result, we only have four custom weapons and they are absolutely horrible and were added solely for looks. You can buy custom items with variable prices directly from the Admin (for example, a one-of-a-kind hat with properties from various MVP and non-MVP cards for $15 with a unique name and ID tag) or just drop dosh for MVP cards, bubblegum, battle manuals and enriched ores. About 95% of the custom content is open-source hats and we have a wide (but rather common at this point) assortment of hair styles, hair and clothing colors. We've even got every sprite available for the game, past and present (old RK sprites, new Hanbok sprites) and a small handful of custom class sprites (modified Shadow Chaser, etc.). We have never been for lack of customization options.

All in all, Reevus is not without a handful of perfectly valid arguments. The problem is that his scathing review comes from a relatively small amount of time within the community and he takes no responsibility for how his personality may or may not have clashed with those of other community members. Agharta can work if new players actually try to make it work. The cliques are formed from people who've floated around the various RP communities that have existed for the last 6-7 years and I'd like to say that we've got far fewer a****** now than any single community has ever had in the history of the practice. Communities fail when a****** set roots, and that's why Fortuna, Advent, Eos, Aeon and many others have failed and summarily disappeared. Agharta has lasted three years and in doing so has outlived a number of communities because almost all of the a****** are gone now. Our cliques are no longer exclusive and standoffish. You can get RP time in with almost anyone if you ask. If you don't ask then you don't get what you want. If you don't put yourself out there then you don't get recognition. If you don't show some initiative then nobody can help you succeed since you've already decided on some level that you don't want success.

And furthermore, don't spend less than three months doing next to nothing and barely communicating with anyone and then have the nerve to tell RMS what horrible people we are. If you want to bring the bad press, I can break the reality check.

Sincerely,
Edgewood

Quote from: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 01, 2013, 10:51 PM
RP servers naturally tend towards cliques and closed doors policies. It's an unfortunate side-effect of having running plot lines and character development. It's also an unfortunate side effect of terrible nerds and the two might admittedly be connected.

Have you ever actually been to one or are you just spouting off based on anecdotal evidence? Regardless, do remember that you're posting on a forum that hosts reviews for private servers for an antiquated Korean MMORPG from 2000, especially if you want to toss the term 'nerd' around in the pejorative.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Uke on Mar 02, 2013, 12:49 PM
To make it clear, I was a new player who played for about two and a half weeks with my boyfriend, who also roleplayed with Veresu. I won't be doing an in depth review of the game as a whole because I agree 100% with what Veresu has to say.

Clearly, the whole point of this thread is to evaluate the server. There's no point in directly calling people out and arguing with them over their opinion - I have many problems with Edgewood's post, mostly because I feel that he's doing more calling out and attempting to shame Veresu in posting his review.

I'd like to quote the Server Review Rules thread -

QuoteLearn to deal with criticism or don't make a thread here

Seriously. It's upsetting to see Edgewood become so defensive and even attempt to shame Veresu because they don't agree with their comments.

Whilst it may not be my place to point this out, comments such as;

QuoteAnd furthermore, don't spend less than three months doing next to nothing and barely communicating with anyone and then have the nerve to tell RMS what horrible people we are. If you want to bring the bad press, I can break the reality check.

Are extremely rude and clearly break the rules set by the RMS staff for server reviews. Reality check? You're being a jerk. It's okay to disagree! It's not okay to ignore the rules set by RMS by not being able to take criticism (for a server that you don't even own) and bait people for their reviews.

First of all, let me make it clear that my review is identical to Veresu's and the other reviews posted in THIS (http://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-reviews/agharta-ocean-of-stories/) thread. Do note that this server has gotten more negative feedback than positive; the only "positive" feedback is Edgewood's and Geckiji's, the former who only posted as a way to shame Veresu and offer a "rebuttal" (which is nothing more than an attempt to flame and bait).

Edgewood and Geckiji mention that there is "no" hazing in the community. I was a member for a good two and a half weeks and I witnessed a lot of hazing. I was in the IRC more often than not and although I didn't speak a lot, there was a LOT of hazing. I'd like to quote a poster from the original thread for Agharta -

QuoteOne thing I don't agree on entirely is that every one of the players are good folks either. It is relatively common that  players or even staff members will constantly haze certain players for simply not being in their RP circle or different than they are.

Notice how even 4 1/2 months ago, the word haze is STILL being used to describe the community. Just because you, as an individual, have not experienced the hazing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Being ignorant to the hazing or "putting up with it" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I felt almost always isolated in the IRC. No matter how many times I attempted to comment on things or bring up something, I was almost always ignored through the extreme amount of talking that goes on or simply ignored because I wasn't known and people were having their own conversation. The only time I felt "welcomed" was literally when I entered the IRC because the chat will notify you when people enter; and I had 1 ~ 3 people say "Hello ___" when I entered. That was it. The conversations were either arguments or a constant  back and forth of conversation that isolated new people.

No one is saying that friends can't have personal conversations with their friends, but it's annoying when even the host herself is constantly chattering with people whilst ignoring other people who may not understand the conversation. Like mentioned before, 99% of the entire community knows each other outside of game. This makes it very easy for the entire site to be one big clique and it's almost daunting to go into the IRC because there are always conversations that you won't understand that generally involve characters of the members who have been around for 1+ year(s).

My problem with Edgewood's comments about the clique is as follows;

QuoteI won't say that there aren't cliques in the community, but they are not anywhere near as insular as they could be in other places.

But we're not talking about "other places", so that fragment isn't relevant. The problem is that the entire player base IS a clique. You can choose to be ignorant of it, but it's either because you are already a part of the clique or you were welcomed as a new player and therefore, don't see it as a clique because you don't ever feel isolated like others. Edgewood makes it seem that you have to "dig" yourself inside the clique in order to feel welcomed and un-isolated and that if you still feel isolated, you haven't "tried" hard enough. A very rude and inaccurate way to portray the isolation of new members.

Tip: Just because you don't feel that there is a clique doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is a severe problem with the community and eventually, it will force the community to wither away. Just because new members have their questions answered doesn't mean the community isn't a clique. Saying "Oh well whenever I had a question, it got answered!" isn't proof that the community isn't a tight-knit clique, so responses like that are void because they aren't relevant to the discussion in the first place.

The IRC is where most, if not all, of the hazing took place at. There's also the fact that I personally felt uncomfortable because many of these conversations included (trigger warning)
Spoiler
rape, pedophilia, racism, misogyny, etc.
[close]

When are such conversations ever appropriate in a public IRC? I understand that the former might be relevant to the roleplay because some people do play victims of those type of atrocities. But often, these conversations are not relevant to the in-character realm of the game. I don't want to come into the IRC and have people discussing how "child porn isn't that bad" and the like. It's not about personal views at this point; it's about respect for all audiences. Some people find such discussions very triggering and upsetting and they shouldn't feel isolated because they are uncomfortable discussing such topics.

More often than not, the head admin and other staff were there and non-AFK when conversations arose. There was never an attempt to ask for the conversation to end; the staff is ignorant to the fact that sensitive topics are not welcome in a IRC. When I brought it up, nothing happened; most likely, my comment was swallowed away by the fact that everyone in the IRC is non-stop talking to their friends. Basically, I was ignored because no one stopped to even read what a new player was writing or cared.

There's also the fact that racist language was used both in the IRC and in-game (in the OOC room, of course). It may have been funny to the person who issued the comment, but calling my character a "sandbaby" is racist and not cute nor is it "cool". As a person of color in real life, I felt it distasteful and not funny. There ARE characters who are racist against others in-game due to the lore (I played a Mu, a dark elf, in the game who were often wary of elves [who are white] and vice versa) but this shouldn't even be acceptable in game. It's offensive and because it was an OOC comment, it can be taken as a personal slight. This same person continued to harass myself and my boyfriend in the OOC room and then decided to take it to the IRC.

I'm generally against name dropping, but what Cyanide did was extremely annoying and offensive. Bragging about "pissing someone off" in the OOC room in the IRC is immature. Grow up. She is an extreme turn off to the entire community.

There's also the fact that the head admin almost always appears to ignore new members or to have a very snappy attitude. Look, I get that we're all human and we're all going to have bad days ... but it seems that 90% of the time you attempt to talk to her, she's very quick to snap on you and is ignorant to the severe amount of hazing in her community. As an example, I sent her a PM about wanting to join a guild and some questions about it. A minute later (I went AFK for a brief second), I come back to the IRC and see her say that I had "wasted" her time because she was online to give me a guild invite.

Wasted your time? Have you lost your damn mind? I hope that 30 seconds of you sitting at your computer is not a waste of your time. That was very rude and not what I expect of an admin. Your tone plays a big part of how you appear to others online. Like I said, she's not always like this, but the moments where she is makes you not even want to keep bothering with her.

In the other RMS thread for Agharta, Tande writes;

QuoteBut it doesn't really help that many of our IRC conversations will scare away newbies, and some members come down on newbies when they make mistakes or aren't really much of the norm of Agharta.

This was four months ago. FOUR MONTHS. You admit to it being a problem but in four months, you have done nothing to attempt to solve the problem. You admit that it's a problem but you decide that it's either 1) not important enough for you to bother with or 2) it will go away on its own.

QuoteWhat do I do when one of the culprits is you? Even if I did report other players to you, I get discouraged with all of the rampant two-faced mentality of the staff and players that's present on the main channel of the IRC. What happened to having a sense of professionalism when you are trying to run a server? I know we were human, but that doesn't entitle you to bring other people down, simply because they are different or don't always share similar views. If you don't want to put time, effort, and money into something that you consistently loathe, then don't do it.

A comment that Dusty made in the previous thread. I agree with it one hundred fold. There's no point in me trying to report the head admin for being rude, because I'd be hazed to the point of no return and blackballed no matter who or where I tried to roleplay at.

I digress. I don't want this to seem like I'm calling out everyone who has wronged me or other new members to RMS. I want to mention that all of these things DID happen to new members so that new members won't waste their time trying to experience the game. It simply isn't worth it.

Some positives is, of course, the custom lore and custom equips. There's also the fact that despite the clique-ness of the IRC, I was never "ignored" in game. Granted, my boyfriend and I almost always roleplayed with each other, but his character was in a guild, which made it easy for me to also roleplay with others.

Edgewood's rebuttal relies on "it's not that bad" and that Veresu is at fault for his experiences because he didn't try hard enough.

A person should not have to try hard to not feel uncomfortable around the current player base.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: RoseTea on Mar 02, 2013, 01:16 PM
Quote from: Edgewood on Mar 02, 2013, 12:57 AMI'd like to say that we've got far fewer a****** now than any single community has ever had in the history of the practice.
I might have found one you guys missed:

Quote from: Edgewood on Mar 02, 2013, 12:57 AMAnd furthermore, don't spend less than three months doing next to nothing and barely communicating with anyone and then have the nerve to tell RMS what horrible people we are. If you want to bring the bad press, I can break the reality check.

Quote from: Edgewood on Mar 02, 2013, 12:57 AMHave you ever actually been to one or are you just spouting off based on anecdotal evidence? Regardless, do remember that you're posting on a forum that hosts reviews for private servers for an antiquated Korean MMORPG from 2000, especially if you want to toss the term 'nerd' around in the pejorative.

If you're done posting in your defensive lash-back attitude, it might be nice to get some actual discussion in.  I was interested in checking out AghartaRO but your post by itself is turning me off entirely.  Is that the sort of behavior and word use you're going  to use to represent the contrary opinion, the one to show the server is actually quite decent?

EDIT: By the way...

Quote from: Uke on Mar 02, 2013, 12:49 PMThere's also the fact that I personally felt uncomfortable because many of these conversations included [...] I understand that the former might be relevant to the roleplay because some people do play victims of those type of atrocities.
No.  This should never, EVER be relevant to anything at all that's involved in this conversation.  There is not a single amateur-hour roleplayer (And yes, everyone in this thread, this is you.  You're not that great.) who is competent and capable enough at writing to use a theme like that for a roleplay character in a tasteful and adult way, as opposed to trivializing it to be a special-snowflake or "I need a tragedy for my backstory and I'm creatively bankrupt!" excuse.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 02, 2013, 01:23 PM
Quote from: Edgewood on Mar 02, 2013, 12:57 AMHave you ever actually been to one or are you just spouting off based on anecdotal evidence? Regardless, do remember that you're posting on a forum that hosts reviews for private servers for an antiquated Korean MMORPG from 2000, especially if you want to toss the term 'nerd' around in the pejorative.
I've played on several, and they're all pretty much the same. The only way you can get to be in the "in crowd" of one of them is if it's just started AND isn't made by a small group of RP friends. Very rarely is there the "wise old veteran" archetype in these servers, willing to lead the newbie around, which is fine because of the very nature of roleplaying - newbies have a lot to catch up to.

It's not like regular servers, where you make a Swordsman and go bop Porings in the head for cash prizes, there's a lot of investment in terms of time and effort to make an RP character and not everyone - well, nearly nobody - is willing to help. Bonus points if you ignore the running story and get labeled (rightly so, even!) as a unique snowflake who doesn't give a crap.

Hilariously, RP guilds in regular servers are much more welcoming. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Also, "RO nerd" can be little but pejorative. You're a terrible nerd whether you're a low-rate libertarian activist, a mid-rate BG hound straight from the DotA community, a high-rate PK server griefer who kills level 11 Novices, a stuck-up defensive roleplayer or a jaded old skeptic driven by nostalgia who hates everything past *insert your favorite episode here*. Surely I can post on an RO forum while simultaneously admitting the RO community's weaknesses? Or do I need to like everything about it?
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Uke on Mar 02, 2013, 01:50 PM
Quote from: RoseTea on Mar 02, 2013, 01:16 PMNo.  This should never, EVER be relevant to anything at all that's involved in this conversation.  There is not a single amateur-hour roleplayer (And yes, everyone in this thread, this is you.  You're not that great.) who is competent and capable enough at writing to use a theme like that for a roleplay character in a tasteful and adult way, as opposed to trivializing it to be a special-snowflake or "I need a tragedy for my backstory and I'm creatively bankrupt!" excuse.

I agree - but it seemed to be a common theme to have prostitutes and child sex slaves as roleplay characters. One player herself had a twelve year old girl be a part of a sex slave ring (??); something else I felt was uncomfortable and not really relevant, nor did it seem to be really elaborated on because somehow, her character still managed to have her "childhood" and was a relatively happy-go-lucky kid.

I digress. Not trying to call people out on their inability to roleplay, because that's a different discussion.

I'd also like to mention that even when you post a departure thread (that wasn't negative nor condescending), the staff responds with negativity such as:

QuoteTypically RP does not fall into ones lap. It helps to be in irc and ask people for rp since no one can be on and idle 24/7 and we're all in very different time zones. You get what you give.

So, according to this staff member, it's my fault that the community was a clique and that I felt isolated.

Thanks, Agharta.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Tande on Mar 02, 2013, 02:29 PM
Let me start that a lot of this topic is vague he said she said.  Let me iron some things out, since reviews are nice to have, but not nice when they are vague to the point I can't even figure out where the problem stemmed from.  Vagueness just makes it look passive-aggressive.

QuoteDo note that this server has gotten more negative feedback than positive; the only "positive" feedback is Edgewood's and Geckiji's, the former who only posted as a way to shame Veresu and offer a "rebuttal" (which is nothing more than an attempt to flame and bait).
Because people tend to only write about something when they're in a fluster.  Negative always outweighs the positive in people's minds, especially when they find it rather personal.  Writing is personal.  There's always going to be more negative reviews on something, even if its a generally good thing...people really only tend to take the time to write out a review when its either negative or they're asked to write a good one.


QuoteNo one is saying that friends can't have personal conversations with their friends, but it's annoying when even the host herself is constantly chattering with people whilst ignoring other people who may not understand the conversation. Like mentioned before, 99% of the entire community knows each other outside of game. This makes it very easy for the entire site to be one big clique and it's almost daunting to go into the IRC because there are always conversations that you won't understand that generally involve characters of the members who have been around for 1+ year(s).
Outside of the game?  Do you mean IRL?  Because everyone lives like 300 miles apart. If you mean the general roleplay group that has moved from server to server, yes, because Agharta is an incarnation of Fortuna, which is an incarnation of etc, etc, etc.  It's just how roleplaying RO servers work.  People tend to flock from one server to the other as soon as one goes down.  The RP community in RO has known each other very well for 8+ years.  It's sort of what happens when there's a small pool of servers to select from.

Quote
The IRC is where most, if not all, of the hazing took place at. There's also the fact that I personally felt uncomfortable because many of these conversations included (trigger warning)
Spoiler
rape, pedophilia, racism, misogyny, etc.
[close]
This is kind of taken out of context.  The moment we were talking about pedophilia was from a tumblr post regarding kink-shaming...which, well, is another problem on its own.  We were having a discussion about a serious issue in the roleplaying community, and I'm sorry that it made you feel uncomfortable. 

Quote
I'm generally against name dropping, but what Cyanide did was extremely annoying and offensive. Bragging about "pissing someone off" in the OOC room in the IRC is immature. Grow up. She is an extreme turn off to the entire community.
No, I want details.  That's what makes a review believable and things easier to fix.

QuoteThere's also the fact that the head admin almost always appears to ignore new members or to have a very snappy attitude. Look, I get that we're all human and we're all going to have bad days ... but it seems that 90% of the time you attempt to talk to her, she's very quick to snap on you and is ignorant to the severe amount of hazing in her community. As an example, I sent her a PM about wanting to join a guild and some questions about it. A minute later (I went AFK for a brief second), I come back to the IRC and see her say that I had "wasted" her time because she was online to give me a guild invite.
You asked me while I was at school, where the ports are blocked.  I ended up coming home, but I only have so much time to myself until work.  This also came at a time where I posted something in the forum regarding my free time.  My free time is very much expensive to me @__@, especially during the weekdays two weeks before midterms between one class and work...and I had to go digging through mySQL in order to even get the account of a guild no one plays in anymore.

QuoteNo.  This should never, EVER be relevant to anything at all that's involved in this conversation.  There is not a single amateur-hour roleplayer (And yes, everyone in this thread, this is you.  You're not that great.) who is competent and capable enough at writing to use a theme like that for a roleplay character in a tasteful and adult way, as opposed to trivializing it to be a special-snowflake or "I need a tragedy for my backstory and I'm creatively bankrupt!" excuse.
Obviously you aren't a member of the roleplaying community online @__@  Or at least the RO or tumblr scene.  Because its a serious discussion topic, because it happens in real life, and thus happens in RP writing.  You also have to take in account that there are ranging degrees of talent in the roleplaying community, and snubbing your nose in the air about an issue, whether well written carefully by a veteran or a stumbling error done by a newbie makes you sound very, very elitist.

I think I'll extrapolate on these things later, when I'm not at work and having to deal with customers at the same time c:

Either way, its good to hear both sides.  Bad or Good.  I want to hear details.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: RoseTea on Mar 02, 2013, 02:41 PM
Quote from: Tande on Mar 02, 2013, 02:29 PMObviously you aren't a member of the roleplaying community online @__@  Or at least the RO or tumblr scene.  Because its a serious discussion topic, because it happens in real life, and thus happens in RP writing.  You also have to take in account that there are ranging degrees of talent in the roleplaying community, and snubbing your nose in the air about an issue, whether well written carefully by a veteran or a stumbling error done by a newbie makes you sound very, very elitist.
Obviously, I mean, there's no way I could have 7-odd years of RPing experience off and on.  Mainly in MUDs, I will admit.  What kind of rookie fool would post "hey, roleplaying about rape or a rape-themed RP character isn't in the best taste and privilege means a lot of writers have difficulty giving it the treatment it should have"?

I agree with you entirely: it is a serious discussion topic, and it happens in real life and affects real people.  That's why it bugs the hell out of me to see people using it as a roleplaying tool.  Because an event that destroys and ruins lives should not be treated as an element for somebody's make-a-story cooperative game time.

If it's elitist for me to think "that isn't cool at all and has no part in roleplaying", then I am 100% fine with that.  If such play exists on Agharta (as Uke suggests) and is accepted, then I'm appalled and rather glad to take my time elsewhere.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Tande on Mar 02, 2013, 02:53 PM
Quote from: RoseTea on Mar 02, 2013, 02:41 PM
Obviously, I mean, there's no way I could have 7-odd years of RPing experience off and on.  Mainly in MUDs, I will admit.  What kind of rookie fool would post "hey, roleplaying about rape or a rape-themed RP character isn't in the best taste and privilege means a lot of writers have difficulty giving it the treatment it should have"?

I agree with you entirely: it is a serious discussion topic, and it happens in real life and affects real people.  That's why it bugs the hell out of me to see people using it as a roleplaying tool.  Because an event that destroys and ruins lives should not be treated as an element for somebody's make-a-story cooperative game time.

If it's elitist for me to think "that isn't cool at all and has no part in roleplaying", then I am 100% fine with that.  If such play exists on Agharta (as Uke suggests) and is accepted, then I'm appalled and rather glad to take my time elsewhere.


It's writing?  You can be as angry as you want about whatever elements a writer decides to put into their story, but it doesn't mean you have to take part of it if you disagree with it.  The whole part of roleplaying is disconnecting from your character to write a story - something that elicits emotions.  And disgust is very much an emotion that at times authors want to get out of their readers.

Conflict comes in many different ways, and sometimes its in disgusting events that will be used to develop a character.

Writing is writing.  Books are books.  I think the biggest problem from this would stem from no warning, but with Agharta we always ensure such things that are happening within the RP-verse like that are warned about in topics (though its harder to warn people in an active roleplay, that's what character wiki articles are for c: ).
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Uke on Mar 02, 2013, 03:00 PM
tw: rape, racism, pedophilia

You keep asking for "details", Tande, but that's the same thing you asked for in the previous Agharta thread 4 months ago and if we compare reviews, nothing has changed. How much more of details do you want? How many times will a new member have to come up and explain the cliques or the crap that comes with being isolated or staff casually ignoring things that are going on until you are satisfied with the "details"?

Cyanide harassing me and my boyfriend in the OOC Room and the IRC is not something I want rectified, because we're both done with such a lousy, unprofessional server. This is not the first time Cyanide has acted out and overall been obnoxious to others - I'll keep their names out of it for sake of privacy, but I heard pretty negative things about her when I first joined. This also threw me off because I hate gossip and I thought it was inappropriate for other members to gossip about one member, but they actually gave me me an accurate description of her personality.

Me reporting Cyan to you or any staff isn't going to change anything. A bunch of staff was online and non-AFK when she bragged about "pissing someone off in the OOC room" and using phrases like "dat nigga got decals on his peco" and calling my character a "sandbaby". I'm damn sure you or any staff weren't going to reprimand her or ban her because this goes on every day in the IRC and nothing happens.

Stop asking for details when you do NOTHING to deal with the atrocities that occur on your server.

Where do the problems stem for? Let me nice and iron it out for you, boo.


Is that enough "detail"?

Btw,

Quotethough its harder to warn people in an active roleplay, that's what character wiki articles are for

Except it isn't mandatory to have a character wiki article and 85% of the people I roleplayed with DIDN'T have a wiki page (and if they did, it was unfilled). I can list names, if you want.

There's also the fact that there is no "trigger warning" on any article that deals with "triggering" topics such as rape, racism, pedophilia, etc.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: RoseTea on Mar 02, 2013, 03:03 PM
Quote from: Tande on Mar 02, 2013, 02:53 PMThe whole part of roleplaying is disconnecting from your character to write a story - something that elicits emotions.  And disgust is very much an emotion that at times authors want to get out of their readers.
Again, no, sorry.  There are not many people in the world that can make a rape-based story do what you're saying: disgust at the story itself, and not at the writer.  Too many awful, awful writers have decided to be edgy and unique by using it in their own awful little stories, so nobody's allowed to use it unless you're a goddamn professional (and if you're reading this, you aren't).

Again: A writer would get somebody disgusted at the writing, not digusted at the writer themselves.

Nobody involved in any of this is a writer.  That I promise you. You're no Vladimir Nabokov.  Agharta doesn't have a Vladimir Nabokov.  I guess your writing did get a reaction out of me: legitimate anger that somebody would have the gall to post that in all sincerity.  Out of all the servers and things on the RO community for me to get annoyed about, you were the one that flipped my switch to angry.  Good job.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Tande on Mar 02, 2013, 03:16 PM
I think you're getting a lot of names mixed up.  Edgewood is the one to respond to this thread, not Hitura.  Perhaps I'm just getting my head wound up with mussed up details.

Regardless, it really does sound like people are taking things much too personally.  As I've repeated time and time again, regardless of how well a person writes, you shouldn't take incharacter things personally out-of-character.  It's just the way the roleplaying world works.  I'm not saying its nice, or PC, but generally its something you shouldn't get your jimmies rustled over because its the internet.  I'm sorry you didn't find Agharta appropriate for your expectations.

I'd also like to say, if you are not comfortable with a situation that is going on, such as a character's back story, or even what is going on in an active RP - drop it.  Just apologize, state what has caused your grief, and leave.  No one is going to force you to stay, especially if you explain your matters in an adult fashion.  No one will ream you for not being comfortable for the topic at hand.  No one is forcing you to stay within IRC or even in-game.

Again, I'm sorry Agharta wasn't an appropriate for yourself, your boyfriend, or your friend.  I hope you find a place that is more suitable to your roleplaying expectations.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Uke on Mar 02, 2013, 03:26 PM
I'm not getting names mixed up. Hitura posted in my departure topic on the Agharta forum with what I quoted at the end of my previous post. Hitura is staff; Edgewood, from what I know, is not. I'm disappointed in both of them, but especially appalled by what Hitura wrote because he's a staff member and as such, represents Agharta as a whole.

So let me make sure I understand - according to you, if I get offended by someone playing a twleve year old child sex slave (rather inaccurately, I may add), I'm taking it too "personally".

QuoteI'm not saying its nice, or PC, but generally its something you shouldn't get your jimmies rustled over because its the internet.

Is this a joke? Seriously? I shouldn't get upset over people incorrectly playing rape victims and being racist OOCly because it's the internet! Because apparently, people behind computers aren't living, sentient beings who come all sorts of backgrounds and have different experiences.

What a load of crap. You're lazy and you don't want to be responsible for actually monitoring player behavior and as such, you tell people not to have your "jimmies rustled" because it's the "internet".

I'd also like to mention that everything that happened to me WAS OUT OF CHARACTER. Calling Kassim a "sandbaby" was out of character. Making racist remarks in both the IRC and OOC room was out of character.

You make it sound so easy to simply opt / dismiss yourself from things, but you again, keep ignoring the rampant hazing that is avid in your community.

Keep your apology, Tande. No one wants it. You only started to care because this thread was posted and Agharta began to get very bad press. Prior to this, you gave not one damn to how any of the new members felt about this; after all, you don't even post in intros or departure topics.

To everyone else -

To sum it up, don't bother with this server. If you've read all the posts here, you can see the amount of crap that the admin and her clique spews out in an attempt to lure more members.

It is not a "newbie"-friendly community and with the rampant hazing, mistreatment, unprofessional staff, and unfriendly members, it's not worth it. Whilst the servers' features might be interesting, you will be singled out if you don't make a character that interests their member base/clique and will be left to roleplay with only yourself. Attempting to even go into the IRC will give you a headache.

I seriously hope no one else joins Agharta because it's simply best not to be bothered with such a server. The admin can't even own up to her faults and mistakes, let alone take responsibility for her inability to control and direct her staff and community; and frankly, she doesn't care, because she's close with all the members and doesn't see the need for improvement.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 02, 2013, 03:41 PM
Quote from: Tande on Mar 02, 2013, 03:16 PMRegardless, it really does sound like people are taking things much too personally.  As I've repeated time and time again, regardless of how well a person writes, you shouldn't take incharacter things personally out-of-character.  It's just the way the roleplaying world works.  I'm not saying its nice, or PC, but generally its something you shouldn't get your jimmies rustled over because its the internet.  I'm sorry you didn't find Agharta appropriate for your expectations.
You can't disconnect the work from the author, and their (lack of) skill with words translates directly into how badly they're gonna mess up something like rape. Like Tea said, it's all about not making yourself, as the writer, seem to everyone else like you're a giant creep and/or an over-privileged heterosexual white male, and I've yet to meet an amateur writer who doesn't.

And here you are, portraying the fact that your server allows and encourages people to write like they're in fanfic.net as a positive thing! As something that happens in all of RP! What ever happened to standards? Are you here to defend your server or to make it look WORSE?

Man, back in my day, we used to RP happy-go-lucky adventurers with broad personalities and ridiculous high school drama level romance. This is how far the RP community has come? This thread is depressing me. D:


Quoteif I get offended by someone playing a twleve year old child sex slave (rather inaccurately, I may add),
Question :

How do you know what an accurate twelve year old child sex slave would be like?

On second thought, I don't think I want to know.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: DeliciousItaly on Mar 02, 2013, 04:23 PM
I thought about talking about the other stuff but I feel this thread has gotten serverely derailed. The only thing I'm going to talk about is, because Reevus(verasu) and the others are entitled to their opinion, is the line about favoritism. I heard through the grapevine that it was directed at me and I felt the need to address it.

I have been the sole writer of Agharta's events from August-January. It's not easy. It's actually really time consuming and a lot of effort and forethought needs to be put into it. The plotlines are generally planned from 2 to 3 months before they start and events are written anywhere form a month to a week in advance. In a way this does shaft new players, but it's the only way I can keep the storyline/plot organized enough to allow for the minimum amount of plotholes. I am a DM for tabletops, so that tends to effect the way I run events. I generally run the first event to see what characters are interested, and I run the bulk of the rest of the events with plot development for those characters/the characters that continue to show up in mind. I also run plotlines that will consist of several different parties so that while not everyone can be part of one thing, they can still contribute to the over all story another way without overloading my chat box faster than I can read and making every event so vague and general that it doesn't really resonate with any characters on a personal level. Keeping in mind that I have generally been doing this by myself so the things I can do are still limited to what I can see.

Granted as a GM in RO I can hide and watch roleplays for use in making storylines more personal this doesn't always work for various reasons: 1) I'm an adult. I have a job. I can't watch people all the time. 2) I don't get paid for this. Sometimes I'd like to draw a picture or read a book or play Guild Wars 2 or go outside. I have a limited amount of free time to chill out and de-stress. 3) Some people do not want me to watch them and I respect their right to privacy. Whenever people respond to the GM "stalking" negatively when it's mentioned, I make a mental note to not spy on them. They don't want me too. And truth be told... 4) Some characters are just really boring and a waste of time to watch. If the entire point of 90% of your roleplay is small talk and house-type activities, there's not much I can write into a storyline based off that.

I am around almost all the time I'm not at work and I tell people if they want more time with a quest giving NPC, if they want to ask questions about a quest, if they want this or that, that I can do, to PM me. I don't always respond right away, but I do respond when I get it. I have never snapped at someone for asking me a question. I have given people every opportunity to give me feedback and ask me questions I possibly could and Reevus, nor any of the other players in this thread have ever, ever contacted me about anything. I make it very, very clear that I do not play favorites and do everything in my power to make sure that my events are fair and everyone has a role and a chance to do something so I do take it as a bit of an insult that someone who never put in any effort at all has the gaul to say that I play favorites. He couldn't even drop by to say that an event was boring and he felt he didn't really have anything to do in it. Which wouldn't help me a lot without suggestions or specific examples, but I would at least be aware that there was a problem. He assumed I was playing favorites because I wrote things specifically for the characters that took initiative and contacted me repeatedly before the event to get the needed set up and investigation done. In fact I've tried to include him several times and he told me to go away, so I stopped bothering him.

And I just wanna put this out there that none of it included any of the s*** this thread got derailed to. I did not try to rape him with a pedophile while making racist remarks. I interrupted small talk in Prontera square/and random dungeons with Ninetails on a mission to save Moonlight. Or had really loud Chung E yelling in Public areas about their cheesy mission to save the world. When I was told to leave him alone, I left him alone.

So Tl;dr It's really hard to write a storyline that balances being small enough to be personal and large enough to provide the maximum amount of opportunities and I am forever needing feedback to get better at it. I am one person running series of large meta events by myself, so I'm going to need contributions from you, the player, if you want to get in on it. You're going to need to talk to me, I have a job so we have to plan interaction for my days off or it's just not going to happen. If you are dissatisfied with something I have to know or I cannot do anything about it.

Please note this applies only to the main, GM-ran Storylines. If I don't like a PC's personal storyline, I just don't roleplay with it. Also the pot's kind of calling the kettle black here, Reevus had a character with a child molestation backstory AND amnesia that was ALSO an orphan and had a cheating boyfriend (that was cheating with another one of his own characters). Just sayin. I didn't roleplay with that character on personal characters because I didn't like it. It's that easy.
(Also the term mudbaby was actually coined as the In Character slur for Mu by a former player. Who was a black woman that enjoyed playing racist elves.)
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Geckiji on Mar 02, 2013, 04:39 PM
I suppose it is time for me to chime in once more, as this is already getting out of hand and I am, as has been established, relatively new, and I would like to think that I have a tendency not to stoke too many fires.


Edgewood can often come across as a surly person, and so I can understand fully where offense would be taken at his post. Why Tande -- who made an objectively more mild-mannered, more concise post with the intent of understanding and discussing these problems -- is suddenly receiving anger-filled posts in response is not wholly understood by me. It's fine to be upset, but this has very much become far more a "bash Agharta" topic than a discussion regarding its positives and negatives, and emotions have begun to bleed through the ink and muddle the message.


First of all, I have taken part in multiple RPI MUDs and RP boards throughout the years, and I will very much tell you that the initial stages require effort in very near any roleplay setting -- effort to understand, effort to create, and effort to actively get involved. The last bit is especially so in communities of relatively small numbers because the odds of stumbling across RP in progress is low, and there are objectively less options for RP at any given point of time simply because of the limited number of people (there is less opportunity for one person in a community of ten than there is in a community of one hundred). The people at Agharta are tightly knit because they have been roleplaying together for so long and understand what to expect from each other, but they are far from what I would consider insular; as I have stated earlier, I have taken part in satisfactory RP with a number of members and observed / taken part in two events. Questions that I have are answered, and each event has had a thread requesting feedback (to which a number of people have responded).

I do not consider myself an outlier for no reason, as I actively tried to take part in the community from the onset, and they were happy to involve me. While I neither harbor any ill feelings towards Uke nor wish to come across as condescending, the most memorable thing she said was "I always feel so lost when I enter the IRC". While I can understand how the IRC can come across as intimidating, in my long history with RP communities both small and large, I can claim that it is far less so than many others I have experienced... and there wasn't really anything I could say in response to what you said, as it is a statement that exists stand-alone and does not overtly provoke discussion.

There's also a lot of emphasis and criticism being placed on rape and adult subject matter in RP, but as far as I understand, it is merely an *option* and certainly not the norm so far as I have seen. I do believe Tande is arguing in favor of freedom in characters as opposed to strict moderation, and as of so far stating that if any singular members hold issue to such a character then they are freely allowed to OOCly break away without any ramifications so as to avoid interacting with such subject matter. Whether it is portrayed accurately -- or even in good taste -- is a matter of debate, but I would far rather have an admin relatively hands-off as opposed to enforcing their own view of what constitutes a "good", or "legitimate" character, so long as it follows the rules.


I see a lot of anger here, a good portion of it sensationalist. I am sorry if any one person feels slighted, disappointed, or even outright angry, but I do not feel such emotions remove the capability of holding a civil discussion.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Fretless on Mar 02, 2013, 05:53 PM
Hello folks, I am a member of Agharta myself. I started in Agharta three years ago personally. I had no trouble getting involved in RP (even though I had never met any of the users before), and that's because all I had to do was ask for someone to help me get going. Now I had to leave Agharta a few months after I joined because I was moving to another state, starting school, and my computer broke, so I had neither the means (until I got a new PC, but by then I was focused on a lot of other stuff) nor the time to do RP. I recently moved to Texas and found myself with a lot more time, so I decided to rejoin Agharta. I do not RP as much as I use to, but when ever I feel the desire to RP or to make a character that could be related to the plot some how I find it very easy to join in, and that is because like I stated before, you really just have to ask.

Now I will admit there are always problems in small communities, and to honestly even say a community as small as Agharta can have cliques is really quite mind numbing. With a very small community as it is everyone is tight knit, and yes it may be intimidating, but when new users such as Geck, decide to chime in on IRC a lot and get involved while actually trying to get to know us, they are able to find a place in the server much more easily.

In regards to adult content, I will make no comment as what people decide to RP about is their own business, and I have no reason to get involved there, but like it has been stated, you can choose to completely ignore that aspect if you so desire. The community as a whole is really quite fun to be around, and really once you get to know us you would find that we can be rather fun. Anyways that's my two cents. Have a good day :3
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Edgewood on Mar 03, 2013, 01:04 AM
Quote from: RoseTea on Mar 02, 2013, 01:16 PM
I might have found one you guys missed:

If you're done posting in your defensive lash-back attitude, it might be nice to get some actual discussion in.  I was interested in checking out AghartaRO but your post by itself is turning me off entirely.  Is that the sort of behavior and word use you're going  to use to represent the contrary opinion, the one to show the server is actually quite decent?

EDIT: By the way...
No.  This should never, EVER be relevant to anything at all that's involved in this conversation.  There is not a single amateur-hour roleplayer (And yes, everyone in this thread, this is you.  You're not that great.) who is competent and capable enough at writing to use a theme like that for a roleplay character in a tasteful and adult way, as opposed to trivializing it to be a special-snowflake or "I need a tragedy for my backstory and I'm creatively bankrupt!" excuse.

I won't make any excuses for some of the shady things that people roleplay behind closed doors or even out in the open. Rape, racism and slavery do come up from time to time on the server, and I won't sugarcoat it. However, with your "amateur-hour" comment as found above it doesn't seem that you'd listen to the justifications. Granted, can anyone actually justify something like that? My answer is a resounding yes, so long as the author doesn't make the character a paper-thin caricature whose entire contribution to the setting revolves around their horrible past traumas. These horrible, dehumanizing things can act as the hurdle of adversity that sets the tone for a character arc, but frankly it doesn't matter to me because I don't write those kinds of stories and I don't like them either.

Now, your derisive comments about how we're not writers and we don't measure up to your own subjective standards? I don't speak for the others but my original rebuttal said absolutely nothing about writing quality, but rather Reevus's initiative. Quality and effort are not synonymous. I don't know what launched you into your brief, vitriolic snippets of elitist s*** but until you can show me your doctoral dissertation on post-Revolutionary literature then I invite you to kindly go f*** yourself. Casually browsing the contents of this flaming mess of a thread (I say, as I walk away from it holding a gas can), I don't see anyone trying to assert that their writing quality was the stuff of the Enlightenment. Thanks for throwing more wood into the hearth.

Now, as Uke said earlier, one can't simply "try harder" and magically overcome their discomfort. That's absolutely true, but that wasn't the crux of my rebuttal and it's nothing I even care about. My point remains the same as before: Reevus complains about being sidelined and not getting to do anything but he barely showed up to put in the work and in my book that pretty much bars him from leveraging criticism about any of the roleplay prospects. The bigger problem here is that he chooses to find fault with the community and to attribute many of the problems (not simply roleplay, we're talking fundamental attribution error out the donkey) to the community and in doing so he demonizes people who've done and said nothing to him. You want to prop me up under the umbrella of libel? Feel free, but don't expect me to feel sorry for the fact that someone failed to enjoy any success in their endeavors on Agharta if they're going to report on it like this. Reevus and Uke were the first to call out targets by name in this thread (calling him Reevus is not calling him out, it is addressing the original poster by name), and their continued comments have amounted to little more than an assault on a community which by and large did nothing to them. We've got our problem personalities, believe you me, but if they're going to complain about how we're such bad people than its counterproductive to harp on Cyanide for two or three paragraphs. If they accuse us all, then they accuse me by proxy and prior to this thread I have not said or done s*** to either Reevus or Uke.

The previous review posted by NERFs is a good example of how to voice a dissenting opinion; he spent well over six months with us, put forth a lot of effort and contributed to the community. He didn't name names and in doing so he chose not to start fights with the people he might not have gotten along. He had perspective, which is something the originating post of this thread was sorely lacking. It's like buying a bag of candy, having a single piece and then unceremoniously throwing the rest of it out because you got one bad taste. Rather than chock this up to what it is, that he didn't get along with the personalities of the server, he fails to admit that he didn't really participate much in the goings-on of the community in the first place. Just say you don't get along with us and go about your business.

And since this is a thread about our personal feelings (I said before, let's call a spade a spade), I don't need to be a member of the staff to reply to this thread. Uke is welcome to his or her disappointment in me, but I don't particularly care because they seem to like prefacing it with "but he's not even on the staff". If you're going to grasp at straws while you flail and whine ineffectively then don't expect me to come to table and humor your need for civil discourse.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: RoseTea on Mar 03, 2013, 05:27 PM
Quote from: Edgewood on Mar 03, 2013, 01:04 AMNow, your derisive comments about how we're not writers and we don't measure up to your own subjective standards? I don't speak for the others but my original rebuttal said absolutely nothing about writing quality, but rather Reevus's initiative. Quality and effort are not synonymous. I don't know what launched you into your brief, vitriolic snippets of elitist s*** but until you can show me your doctoral dissertation on post-Revolutionary literature then I invite you to kindly go f*** yourself. Casually browsing the contents of this flaming mess of a thread (I say, as I walk away from it holding a gas can), I don't see anyone trying to assert that their writing quality was the stuff of the Enlightenment. Thanks for throwing more wood into the hearth.
I can tell you're a roleplayer because you spent 123 words to do the basic "Well let's see you do it better" argument with an extra dose of flaming, WHILE accusing everyone else including yourself of adding to the fire (So you play on AghartaRO then?  Nice sampling of the community).  I'm not sure how my stance is mind-boggling, hateful, or elitist in any way: they're delicate subjects and take an absolute mastery to play them tastefully and maturely.  Nobody involved in this thread is the next Vladimir Nabokov, and it's a subject that if it can't be approached correctly shouldn't be touched at all.

Agharta seems downright accepting of anyone's attempts at it.  Regardless of if I could OOCly excuse myself from it or not, that's not something I could put up with.  Seeing the toxicity of the community as a whole, though, this thread has been more of a turn-off than lemonparty.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 03, 2013, 05:27 PM
Quote from: Everyonetl;dr
I can't help but appreciate this whole thread. Everyone's being so irrationally defensive, I've managed to go from thinking Agharta is an oldschool RP server with an insular community that someone didn't enjoy to thinking everyone involved in this whole thing is a toxic, intractable, bizarre-fetishist nerd, including the OP and the lady agreeing with the OP (she still owes me an explanation of what "proper child sex slavery roleplay" is).

So there's a lot of effort and posts and words put forth by geeks defending their indefensible positions that has merely made the sole two outsiders, the people you WANT to influence (players want to tell us the server is good, reviewers ORIGINALLY wanted to tell us the server is good but not without flaws) think Agharta is a disgusting nerdhive and everyone who plays or has played there a terrible person.

Time well spent! You'll look back on this and be proud of yourselves, I feel.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Edgewood on Mar 03, 2013, 06:58 PM
Quote from: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 03, 2013, 05:27 PM
I can't help but appreciate this whole thread. Everyone's being so irrationally defensive, I've managed to go from thinking Agharta is an oldschool RP server with an insular community that someone didn't enjoy to thinking everyone involved in this whole thing is a toxic, intractable, bizarre-fetishist nerd, including the OP and the lady agreeing with the OP (she still owes me an explanation of what "proper child sex slavery roleplay" is).

So there's a lot of effort and posts and words put forth by geeks defending their indefensible positions that has merely made the sole two outsiders, the people you WANT to influence (players want to tell us the server is good, reviewers ORIGINALLY wanted to tell us the server is good but not without flaws) think Agharta is a disgusting nerdhive and everyone who plays or has played there a terrible person.

Time well spent! You'll look back on this and be proud of yourselves, I feel.


Well, at least you're demonizing all of us in the thread instead of just some of us so I guess I can't hold anything against you. Granted, I don't mean to actively shape your opinions of the community on Agharta, but at least do me the favor of disliking me for my own flaws rather than trying to shoehorn me into whatever picture you're painting of the group at large.

Quote from: RoseTea on Mar 03, 2013, 05:27 PM
I can tell you're a roleplayer because you spent 123 words to do the basic "Well let's see you do it better" argument with an extra dose of flaming, WHILE accusing everyone else including yourself of adding to the fire (So you play on AghartaRO then?  Nice sampling of the community).  I'm not sure how my stance is mind-boggling, hateful, or elitist in any way: they're delicate subjects and take an absolute mastery to play them tastefully and maturely.  Nobody involved in this thread is the next Vladimir Nabokov, and it's a subject that if it can't be approached correctly shouldn't be touched at all.

Agharta seems downright accepting of anyone's attempts at it.  Regardless of if I could OOCly excuse myself from it or not, that's not something I could put up with.  Seeing the toxicity of the community as a whole, though, this thread has been more of a turn-off than lemonparty.

I wasn't referring to the hot button issue debate when I called you out. I'd prefer not to discuss it any further than the jibe I made about overcoming adversity since I actually agree with your position on how most people can't handle it respectfully. I don't defend it on Agharta, I just acknowledge it's there and go on about my business. Now, to put things in perspective there's only one character I can actively recall as having sexual abuse in their past so don't think this is a rampant phenomenon whereby we trivialize things like that.

Also, you've seen the toxicity of the community as a whole? You've seen me, and beyond that you haven't seen s***. Because Geck and Fretless and Hollow and Italy were so horribly offensive, right?
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 03, 2013, 07:07 PM
Quote from: Edgewood on Mar 03, 2013, 06:58 PMWell, at least you're demonizing all of us in the thread instead of just some of us so I guess I can't hold anything against you. Granted, I don't mean to actively shape your opinions of the community on Agharta, but at least do me the favor of disliking me for my own flaws rather than trying to shoehorn me into whatever picture you're painting of the group at large.
Fair enough, you don't do that sort of roleplay, but man does it ever help to take a chill pill sometimes, especially before posting defending your server. If you want me to dislike you for your own flaws, the one flaw you fully displayed here for everyone to see is that you're unnecessarily angry at some dude's mildly critical review of your server. Even if you're not, your posts sure make it seem like you are.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Bhollow on Mar 03, 2013, 11:08 PM
I play at Agharta and this entire thread is just turning laughable.

Half the people yelling are yelling about how bad we are have never even played at the server, while they also yell at the one person who is trying to defend the server.


All your butts seem to be hurt. And perhaps before you attack a server you should actually play there, before attacking it, as it gives unfair criticism to the server.


Go find somewhere else to whine, this is a thread for reviews.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Fruit Pie~ on Mar 04, 2013, 02:01 AM
Quote from: Bhollow on Mar 03, 2013, 11:08 PMHalf the people yelling are yelling about how bad we are have never even played at the server
That's not true. We're yelling about how terrible the community is, because it's very, very clear from the posts in this very thread! We didn't even need to PLAY it to mock it, which is a first for me and Tea! For instance, here's a great example of the sort of a****** that populates Agharta :

Quote from: Bhollow on Mar 03, 2013, 11:08 PMI play at Agharta and this entire thread is just turning laughable.

Half the people yelling are yelling about how bad we are have never even played at the server, while they also yell at the one person who is trying to defend the server.


All your butts seem to be hurt. And perhaps before you attack a server you should actually play there, before attacking it, as it gives unfair criticism to the server.


Go find somewhere else to whine, this is a thread for reviews.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: yC on Mar 04, 2013, 05:20 AM
*Warning Sign*

Okay, calm down please.  Those from Agharta RO I think your server will appreciate your effort in defending the server and by representing the server as a player here maybe you could try to show the positive side of the server.

To the others, a review should help you get an idea of what a server is like before playing it.  You can ask questions and you can have doubts but you are not going to be as clear as those that plays the server.  That means argument shouldn't happen between these two groups. Why turn someone's experience around when you haven't experienced it yourself.  There could be many faces to a server depending on who is talking or reviewing, don't have to lock up yourself to argue with just one representation.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Lixel on Mar 04, 2013, 02:34 PM
I've been reading for a while, and I'd like to just peek in and suggest that maybe saying EVERYONE on the server is a horrible person is factually incorrect.

Agharta has been my home for almost three years (do not apologize) and trust me when I say that if it was as bad as you are suggesting, I wouldn't still be there. It is a good server with a very fun and dynamic community. Yes, sometimes we do get an oddball, but who's to say what someone else writes or doesn't write?

Now, I haven't only roleplayed on Agharta; I've been to a few other servers as well. Eos, Vigrior (for a short amount of time), Advent, and another that wishes to be private. There aren't many people in the rp community, but they are all very nice, very friendly people, at least from what I've seen, and I've seen a lot.

I feel very insulted to hear that "everyone" is a "toxic, intractable, bizarre-fetishist nerd" because honestly, we're not. I'm not. Bhollow's not. Fretless is not. Edgewood is not. Please don't insinuate that these people "made us" look like this; they are just trying to defend what they have put endless amounts of work into just to be torn down by two people who haven't experienced Agharta.

Writing for characters does not have to reflect our own beliefs. It may, but in most cases, it does not. Please don't take this post as flaming, hating, etc., because it is not. I'm simply trying to stick up for myself and others who I believe do not deserve this kind of treatment for doing nothing wrong.
/kis2
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: CyanideKisses on Mar 04, 2013, 02:46 PM
Hello, Cyanide here.


I've been more or so watching the contents of the thread for the last day or so, sort of giving myself some time to absorb what is going on. I've decided now would be a good time to put my few words in, and shed light on some details that seem to be far too blown out of proportion. Along with a name drop, and the speaking of a character I'm currently playing, I feel more or less obliged to clear up some details that seem to have been twisted somehow during the conversations. The following post is by no means hostile( even if it seems to be. It's just how I speak.), and I hold no ill will towards the original poster, and there of.

--------

Quote from: Verasu
Newbies are also required to be in the server's IRC, which is a usual thing for an RP server. However, it's fair warning to say that there will be a bit of hazing. It has happened to me before, but I was able to drone out the problem and not let it bother me. However, for others, it can be a real problem. The IRC itself, while it does has its fair share of arguments that are eventually dealt with, having a newbie witnessing this certainly leaves a bad impression. Overall, unless you have high endurance or patience and can deal with something like this, you'd otherwise have a bad taste in your mouth.


First off, I'd like to point out that the current main IRC channel in use for Agharta is not, in any ways required. It is there for the convenience of the people, and you are not forced to be there. The forums work just as fine, as the server Admin, St's, and a handful of players are, in fact, active on them. Secondly, I believe we're all misusing the word hazing here. While it does happen that we may or may not give lip to one another, new or not, it is almost never without reason or provocation. As for the arguments that occur on the Irc, I'll have to agree. They do happen, but they would also happen anywhere; I'd also like to point out that the arguments that's mostly occur on the irc are short, and brief. And are never truly serious, as the two or so people who may be involved are usually talking like friends in a matter of minutes afterwards. If anything, the arguments may turn off newcomers, but our clearly evident element of mutual forgiveness and understanding should be just as inviting.

--------------------

Quote from: VerasuBut even then, the events usually involve veteran players, again, going back to the clique cliche again. This leaves newbies being left out and having no involvement whatsoever. I myself tried to join some of these events, but even then, one particular ST seems to have some form of favoritism and only selects certain people.

I personally believe that referring to any group of certain players in our current player-base as a "Clique" is slightly unfair for you to really do. We're a small community, barely consisting of 20. Some knowing each other going on about 8 years From what I understand. If anything I would personally consider the lot of us as family. While it may be frustrating to you, as a newcomer, to see all of us so close; and not immediately be cued on in, but you also have to come to understand what it came along with.

To be honest, I felt the exact same way when I joined. It wasn't until I personally took it upon myself to put myself forward, and actively Participate in events, and sway them. People became interested in my characters, and thusly wanted to role play with me. Quick question, would you willingly roleplay with a character you find to be "Just there" as you put it? No, you'd want to roleplay with the character that is doing something, at the given time, that could impact your characters story. (At least, that's how I believe most would see it.) So, to agree with what Edgewood said, you do have to put forth an effort. Geckiji is a perfect example. He put himself forward, and we recognized for it.  We're not here to hand everyone what they want on Silver platters. As for the GM you're referring too, I'm going to blast the whole "Favoritism" thing out of the water right now. This ST and I butt heads way too much IC'ly and ooc'ly for any favoritism to even legitimately be claimed upon. If we were any closer, we'd share a body. Yet, she doesn't come to me, or play favorites with me whatsoever. Hell, every character of mine that is incarcerated, was because she didn't show this "Favoritism".     

--------------


Moving onto some other things I feel need to be addressed.

Quote from: Uke
There's also the fact that racist language was used both in the IRC and in-game (in the OOC room, of course). It may have been funny to the person who issued the comment, but calling my character a "sandbaby" is racist and not cute nor is it "cool". As a person of color in real life, I felt it distasteful and not funny. There ARE characters who are racist against others in-game due to the lore (I played a Mu, a dark elf, in the game who were often wary of elves [who are white] and vice versa) but this shouldn't even be acceptable in game. It's offensive and because it was an OOC comment, it can be taken as a personal slight. This same person continued to harass myself and my boyfriend in the OOC room and then decided to take it to the IRC.

I'm generally against name dropping, but what Cyanide did was extremely annoying and offensive. Bragging about "pissing someone off" in the OOC room in the IRC is immature. Grow up. She is an extreme turn off to the entire community.

Originally, I wasn't really going to really write a reply to this. It's an in character racial slur, that is used in the game. There's racism in the world. We're all slightly racist. Claiming otherwise would be complete tomfoolery.  Though, this does not par sey make it "Right" to do, I do personally believe you blew this on out of proportion.

As for my comments in the OOC room regarding the Peco having Decals. That's called playful banter. it's what I do, it's a part of my personality; and I wont apologize for being me. I also thought you were another player, in which I joke like this quite frequently. I'll also like to add that the whole "Bragging in the irc about it" wasn't so much as bragging, as it was "Okay well, I pissed this person off. Perhaps I'll go do this." You decided to feel attacked, and you decided to take that the way you did. And I'll state it again, I wont apologize for being me, simple as that. But, on another note, I will apologize for the fact you clearly felt like you were being attacked, which I will put my hand over my heart and say, was not my intention.

"She is an extreme turn off to the entire community."

I'll admit. This hit me quite hard. I'm sure quite a large amount of our player-base can stand behind me when I say I'm more than likely one of, if not the most, welcoming, understanding, and kind-hearted people in this community. When Geckiji wrote:

"I have been at Agharta for nearly two weeks now and have yet to see or experience many of the problems you have detailed. My first experience with Agharta, in fact, was logging into the IRC to ask some questions and having one of the people there ask if I would like to be shown around Agharta firsthand."

He was referring to me, and something I run called, "The Agharta Server Tour" In which I go in game with new players and personally show them around, teach them basic lore, and answer any question they may have; and give them a "Newbie pack" of things I collect on my own free time. While you nor your boyfriend/girlfriend ever got this, this was only because you two joined the IRC while I was at work. And even then, I offered it to the both of you. I've offered it to every new player, and always will. End of story.

-----

The following is something I think seriously needs to be cleared up.

QuoteI agree - but it seemed to be a common theme to have prostitutes and child sex slaves as roleplay characters. One player herself had a twelve year old girl be a part of a sex slave ring (??); something else I felt was uncomfortable and not really relevant, nor did it seem to be really elaborated on because somehow, her character still managed to have her "childhood" and was a relatively happy-go-lucky kid.

I firstly want to point out that this information is rather incorrect. The way you've written this is left to imply to readers that the character in question, (Most likely Nazka) is currently still being sexual abused, and sold around in a slave market. This is wrong, and this statement would have been wrong no matter when you had written it.

Nazka went through that OOC'ly, as in; before she was created. It was never roleplayed, but was developed upon to a point in which I felt it was okay to give her the "Childhood" and "Happy go lucky" Nazka you've come to meet up with today. Here's a little breakdown.

I've been a member of Agharta for nearly two years. Nazka's past happened before I played her Ic'ly. Over the two years, or nearing, of my membeship, I've logged Over 2000 hours of Rp on Nazka alone. How do I know this?

Agharta serves what we call Kafra points. You get ten points an hour. I've accumulated over 27k points on this character alone. Most of which was pure character development and constructive roleplaying.

Since the creation of Nazka, She's been:

Adopted by a great family who loves her
Has been in psychotherapy since
Literally has over 13 In-Character people who supported her for the last two years.

While playing Nazka's storyline, I have been refering to this link:

Click Here

For the advancement, and healing of my character. I have role-played this character through this healing process, some steps multiple times, ove the course of two years. With this in mind, as tea wrote I'm no Vladimir Nabokov. I never will be, I'll never claim to be either. But I chose the background with the intent on realistically roleplaying through the healing process no matter where it landed me. With this all said, I personally believe that my character was written to the best of my extent, and I'm personally happy with where she is now. You're blatant claims of her being a Current sex slave, seemed to be one of the main things driving this thread where it was going. I hope this information clears some things up.


I may or may not be back to speak a bit more. But honestly, I probably wont be. I probably wont even look at this thread again now that I put my input. But, off record:

@Tea&Co

While I happen to agree with some of the things written by the original poster, and his companion; I do believe Agharta is being slightly underhanded in terms of what and who were really are. While I am fully aware you don't seem interested at all, I would honestly suggest coming in and seeing for yourself, before making a judgement on us based off of a few disgruntled people.

------

With this post, I'm done. I may reply to any questions or comments to this if I feel they're not hostile, otherwise you'll get nothing from me but a chuckle and quick skim.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: RoseTea on Mar 04, 2013, 08:25 PM
Quote from: CyanideKisses on Mar 04, 2013, 02:46 PM@Tea&Co
While I happen to agree with some of the things written by the original poster, and his companion; I do believe Agharta is being slightly underhanded in terms of what and who were really are. While I am fully aware you don't seem interested at all, I would honestly suggest coming in and seeing for yourself, before making a judgement on us based off of a few disgruntled people.
I'd just like to correct this for you: We aren't assuming these things based off the OP and their friend.  We're assuming them based off Edgewood and other Argatha players who have come to "defend" the server.  The post that started the thread was merely a minor curiosity, but the posts to "counter" it are what turned me off entirely.

However, I have a few things I'd like to speak with you about.  Probably better to make it not public (You admit you might never read this, and Lord knows this thread is already way off the deep end), you can PM me here or I'll try and find you on Agharta itself.

Fake Edit: It's nothing toxic or drama-y or whatever, or even really about Nazka, I wish to chat with you on a good-will basis.
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: Edgewood on Mar 04, 2013, 09:11 PM
Quote from: RoseTea on Mar 04, 2013, 08:25 PM
...I'd just like to correct this for you: We aren't assuming these things based off the OP and their friend.  We're assuming them based off Edgewood and other Argatha players who have come to "defend" the server....

I've written the most venomous of all responses to this thread. Are you sure you want to drink the Kool-Aid and continue to think that our community is horrible just because of one unapologetic a******?
Title: Re: AghartaRO
Post by: CyanideKisses on Mar 05, 2013, 04:24 AM
Quote from: RoseTea on Mar 04, 2013, 08:25 PM
I'd just like to correct this for you: We aren't assuming these things based off the OP and their friend.  We're assuming them based off Edgewood and other Argatha players who have come to "defend" the server.  The post that started the thread was merely a minor curiosity, but the posts to "counter" it are what turned me off entirely.

However, I have a few things I'd like to speak with you about.  Probably better to make it not public (You admit you might never read this, and Lord knows this thread is already way off the deep end), you can PM me here or I'll try and find you on Agharta itself.

Fake Edit: It's nothing toxic or drama-y or whatever, or even really about Nazka, I wish to chat with you on a good-will basis.


I would suppose I worded that a bit oddly, PM Sent.