What happened to NovaRO changed anything in the other p2w servers?

Started by Kushiro, Sep 10, 2023, 11:19 PM

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Kushiro

Have they changed their BS scam tactics to make profit from an IP they don't even own?

Im against even selling costumes but the reality is that servers like NovaRO were completely abusive with their player base (and good riddance they got rekt by gravity) but it wasn't the only server doing this or trying to pull this nonesense, many servers are designed to be p2w.

I just don't understand how can you criticize Gravity or even the f*** ups at Warportal for making Ragnarok a cash grab when you private server owners do the same s*** but are even worse because you don't even have legal permission to do so because its not your IP.

I know there are a few servers that aren't like this and at best have costumes (that still makes it p2w if you can sell them for zenny but not at the same degree, not even close) so im not really talking about you so don't come and act offended, I am talking of POS like NovaRO.

Has this made any positive changes on the private server community regarding P2W?

OrcLordDaddy

PServers will always be PServers.

As far as the influence of the NovaRO lawsuit goes, I think all that will happen is that most PServers will just call themselves anything WITHOUT Ragnarok or RO in their name and that'll be it.

Besides, there aren't that many long lived PServers anyway, most of them die out within X amount of months or 1-3 years.
Unfortunately, most PServer owners seem to go along a quick cash grab design, that is too short of a time frame for Gravity to do anything about.

Ofcourse, we can only hope that there will be good PServers coming up and that maybe this lawsuit will have a slightly good influence on the PServer scene.
But reality is, it most likely won't.

2k2

I doubt things changed much regarding the greediness of server owners. Rats gonna be rats.

Because of such greedy rats, we will likely lose legitimately good servers, and just like you said, none of us can be mad or angry towards Gravity, as the only ones we have to blame are the server owners running servers for a profit (Nova, Talon Tales, Project Alfheim, RagnaTales etc) which draws big attention from the IP owners and put a big mark at our back.

One of the servers I just mentioned did their biggest cash points promotion as soon as NovaRO's Lawsuit started, all while claiming they were "free from lawsuits and not worried about Gravity or what was happening to Nova", then 2 weeks after this big cash points promotion, they announced they'd be closing the server because of the lawsuit, "thanking" the community, calling them families, saying it was never about the money they made etc (despite selling literal MVP cards, custom/overpowered/slotted God Items), selling @item2 generated equipments and even endorsing RMT on the side for specific people/groups.

They milked their cattle community one last time and called it quits. The players of said community was still fine with it despite their promises they wouldn't do that/that wouldn't ever happen etc.

And they will do that again when it's their turn to get crushed by Gravity. They 100% will run a big cash point credits promotion before the lawsuit become public and then close the server again.

This kind of greediness will always put all decent, completely f2p servers at risk. And that's why we should all keep mass reporting such greedy servers to WarpPortal with every single bit of information about those scam servers and let them share the report with Gravity.
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Playtester

Different people have different goals.

People who just want a fun server to play on and the skills to create one themselves have a completely different mindset to people who see a demand in private servers and see a business model in that.

Those hosting RO servers to earn money will not change, at best (or worst) they will just stop making RO servers altogether.

FlexRO

Regarding the impact of the NovaRO lawsuit on the private server community and the prevalence of pay-to-win (P2W) servers, it's a topic that continues to stir up discussions. I'd like to share my perspective on this matter. Overall, the biggest impact I've noticed has been the fragmentation of the private server community from a few big servers, into many smaller ones. It probably caused a big amount to quit all together, as their favorite server may have gone down along with their time investment.

As for the P2W discussion.. Firstly, I understand the frustration expressed about certain servers resorting to abusive practices and questionable monetization strategies. The concern about P2W servers is valid, and it's essential to address these issues within the private server community.

However, it's worth noting that not all private servers follow the same path. Servers like FlexRO, for example, prioritize a fair and balanced approach to monetization, which includes a structured donation system. This system is not about preventing players from having advantages but rather offering a legitimate and regulated way for players to support the server while acquiring in-game benefits. These benefits of course, need to be well balanced, and need to be available to non-donators.

By providing this option, it helps deter real money trading (RMT) and maintains a controlled gaming environment. From my experience, servers that offer no donations are still very prone to P2W via RMT. The problem is RMT encourages scamming, hacking, bug abuse and in general a toxic community that's more worried about making a dollar than playing the game strategically and socially. You can say "make RMT illegal" but you know that's easier said than done and there is no "Gepard Shield" against RMT.  /heh

The question of who should benefit from these "P2W players" financial contributions is crucial. Responsible server administrators aim to reinvest these funds into server maintenance, development, and improvements, ultimately enhancing the overall gaming experience for all players. It can also be used to reward staff members for their activity and contributions.

As for the impact of the NovaRO lawsuit, it's uncertain whether significant changes will occur in the private server community. While some hope that it will lead to a more ethical approach to server administration, the reality is that the private server landscape is diverse, and server owners have varying motivations and goals.

In conclusion, the debate about P2W servers and ethical monetization practices will persist within the private server community. The key is to encourage open discussions, promote responsible server administration, and support servers that prioritize fairness and transparency.
Administrator at FlexRO
Pre-Renewal | Low Rate | Casual

Herpderp

If anything, the Nova case just proved that the whole scaredy cat behavior from pserver owners was completely unwarranted (though kind of understandable at the time).  /gg

They basically had the juiciest case against a pserver owner you could possibly imagine, someone who literally registered his server as an LLC and made his real name known everywhere. And even then, Gravity still cucked out with a settlement (lol) that required Nova only to take down his server with zero damage payments made to Gravity.  /heh

But hey... At least Trannyheim finally stopped their "nooo stop making videos of our server or we'll ban you!!" cringe fiesta...  /wah

Felione

I doubt this will change anything. People will be people and simply attempt to reach into your pocket, regardless of how you feel. There have been too many successful rats out there, not to attempt to scam society out of their hard earned money, and unfortunately, most of it works, because people are sheep, and critical thinking is something not practiced any longer.

As long as customers exist, the business will always thrive. Just take a look at non-profits, or any donation fund. They thrive on people's suffering, and invest only a taxable amount of their earned revenue, so that they get it back at the end of the year. If they're still allowed to exist, we will continue sharing this space with rats who are just trying to eat our food when we're not looking.

Metan

It seemed like they wanted to bleed Nova dry and it scared a lot of server owners, some who even closed doors, who feared for their financial lives... and nothing happened. Somehow they were satisfied with a simple C&D and did not go any further; they didn't even bother glancing at other servers, even though reports were sent through official channels (I know at least two people who did, out of sheer spite). The message is clear: they don't actually give a toss about private servers, they're just interested in showing, legally, that they have been defending their IP.

It might happen again in the future, assuming they don't go bankrupt, because they're far too incompetent to come up with another successful game to milk; and it stands to reason that, just like this time, it will be a nothing burger.

Buralabo

Quote from: Metan on Nov 09, 2023, 10:18 PMIt seemed like they wanted to bleed Nova dry and it scared a lot of server owners, some who even closed doors, who feared for their financial lives... and nothing happened. Somehow they were satisfied with a simple C&D and did not go any further; they didn't even bother glancing at other servers, even though reports were sent through official channels (I know at least two people who did, out of sheer spite). The message is clear: they don't actually give a toss about private servers, they're just interested in showing, legally, that they have been defending their IP.

It might happen again in the future, assuming they don't go bankrupt, because they're far too incompetent to come up with another successful game to milk; and it stands to reason that, just like this time, it will be a nothing burger.
iRO has survived for 20+ years. I doubt they will close up anytime soon.

PowRO

Pw2 also depends on the ability of the administrator to sustain the server without any help from their community (assuming even costume trading is considered p2w from your first paragraph), so if they're not able to put up the money, how can they keep their server alive? I also don't like p2w but I understand when some people do it. It's clear that we're plagued by it nowadays, with servers full of microtransactions, but there's tons of servers out there that take literally no donations (zero), you just have to look for them.

Felione

Quote from: PowRO on Nov 13, 2023, 05:04 AMIt's clear that we're plagued by it nowadays, with servers full of microtransactions, but there's tons of servers out there that take literally no donations (zero), you just have to look for them.

Those servers, for some odd reason, decide to also exclude P2W items from their database, which most people still prefer. It's a strange ideology, because the ones who do not ask for donations, usually form some sort of vanilla content. It's the most farfetched cycle that continues to fail miserably.

PowRO

Quote from: Felione on Nov 13, 2023, 09:05 PMThose servers, for some odd reason, decide to also exclude P2W items from their database, which most people still prefer. It's a strange ideology, because the ones who do not ask for donations, usually form some sort of vanilla content. It's the most farfetched cycle that continues to fail miserably.
While I believe you're right for the most part, there are definitely servers out there that don't exclude "p2w" items. I think most are looking for "balance" in the game, but I believe you won't ever truly find balance in this game like back in the early 2000s (it wasn't the most balanced even back then), but many servers certainly try to take advantage of most RO content, including those "p2w" items, I try to include them in my server for example. I think the bigger issue is when they try to take advantage of these items to make money and end up eroding their servers and markets, those servers usually include a big network of rmt behind the scenes.


Sachimi

Just curious, but why do people think that the definition of "P2W" has changed to include donations that don't give you an advantage? For example, donations on Talon Tales do not allow you to get anything that you can't get in-game from zeny or hunting. The Talon shop also is not restricted to only donators - you can trade Talon Coins between players, get them for free by doing a small task each day (Talon Cash to exchange for Coins) or doing some other easy stuff. It literally isn't pay to win because you can't donate to get anything that can't otherwise be acquired in-game by other means. I keep seeing people using Talon's donations as an example of P2W but it simply does not fall under the definition. The only donation item is Talon Coins, and you can get those by farming/daily tasks/minigames/etc.

Also, there seems to be a misunderstanding that just because a server takes donations, it doesn't make them a for-profit business. Charities and other nonprofit businesses accept donations all the time, which are used for the purpose of the business and payment for employees (and sometimes volunteers). How exactly is that "being greedy"? Running a server is generally a full-time job. I know that when I was forced into being the only active admin on Eternity while the owner was MIA, I was putting in 12-14 hours per day on average. Regular GM work, team management, support beyond regular GM access, development, etc. I wasn't paid because the owner was a piece of trash who used the donations for himself and lied to everyone about it. My goal was never to use donations for anything except server upkeep and improvements, but I never had access to them to ensure that was their only use. Regardless, I know I'm not the only one who ran (or wanted to run) a server that way. It's not greedy to accept donations for server use.

Playtester

Quote from: Sachimi on Nov 27, 2023, 11:13 AMJust curious, but why do people think that the definition of "P2W" has changed to include donations that don't give you an advantage?
These days the definition of P2W includes getting advantage by being able to trade items from the cash shop.

So let's say there are only costumes in the shop. If you can sell them for Zeny, that's already P2W because you can basically just buy Zeny and from the Zeny you can buy any item from other players that gives an advantage.

Now if you could only buy untradable costumes, then that's not P2W, even by modern definition of the term.


That people call a server taking donations in general greedy is a bit different topic in my opinion. I would say in this case it's more of a perceived legal thing that if you already "steal" someone else's product, it should remain a fan project and so you shouldn't take any money for it.

2k2

Quote from: Playtester on Nov 27, 2023, 12:50 PMNow if you could only buy untradable costumes, then that's not P2W, even by modern definition of the term.
Exactly.

Nobody complains about cash shop. If servers want to to sustain the project through donations, that's fine, but put them untradeable.

People complain about anything on cashshop being tradeable, because that means you could literally start playing a 10 years old server and within 10 minutes become the richest player in the server, if you have the money (or are simply stupid enough to support greedy pigs like p2w server owners).

Any server allowing direct or indirect exchange of real-world money to tradeable currency or zeny is p2w. It's basically am official RMT done by the server itself.

Using the excuse "but you can acquire it ingame too!!!" is the stupidest thing ever because it's totally the same thing taking hours/days/years to acquire something some rich/stupid kid could get in seconds, right?
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Sachimi

Quote from: 2k2 on Nov 27, 2023, 02:03 PMExactly.

Nobody complains about cash shop. If servers want to to sustain the project through donations, that's fine, but put them untradeable.

People complain about anything on cashshop being tradeable, because that means you could literally start playing a 10 years old server and within 10 minutes become the richest player in the server, if you have the money (or are simply stupid enough to support greedy pigs like p2w server owners).

Any server allowing direct or indirect exchange of real-world money to tradeable currency or zeny is p2w. It's basically am official RMT done by the server itself.

Using the excuse "but you can acquire it ingame too!!!" is the stupidest thing ever because it's totally the same thing taking hours/days/years to acquire something some rich/stupid kid could get in seconds, right?

Bro, are you that pressed that other people spend money instead of time? It's practically the Dead Sea up in this b.

Regardless, to me, the defintion of P2W only means "paying for something that gives you an advantage, that otherwise cannot be acquired". Period. These salty donkey arguments are never going to change my mind about it. I can only come to the conclusion that people changed the definition because they're jealous/salty about other people having money. I've never spent any money at all on RO ever in my 20 years of playing, but I don't have this kind of whiny attitude.

Do you also get angry when other people pay to get in the "fast" lines at Disneyland? Or get upset at some guy who has a lot of money and bought the shoes you wanted, that you were saving up money to get? I mean, damn. That's just so ridiculous.

Herpderp

Quote from: Sachimi on Nov 28, 2023, 08:56 AMRegardless, to me, the defintion of P2W only means "paying for something that gives you an advantage, that otherwise cannot be acquired". Period. These salty donkey arguments are never going to change my mind about it. I can only come to the conclusion that people changed the definition because they're jealous/salty about other people having money. I've never spent any money at all on RO ever in my 20 years of playing, but I don't have this kind of whiny attitude.

1. Plays TalonRO, the most quintessential "ooga ooga me pay for MVP cards to be a supersaiyan" pay2win server in history.

2. Seems to have a PHD in how everything is not p2w and proudly proclaims how no argument can change his mind

3. Has a complete meltdown because someone called something p2w

4. Believes only rich gigachad CEO's ever p2w, and totally never complete losers who have no control of their life (cough gacha games made for waifutards cough)

Uhh yeah you definitely strike me as a guy who never wipped out mom's credit card for anything.  /heh 


Metan

(off-topic discussion removed)

Anyhow, you asked why people considered cash shop with items that don't give you an advantage (costumes, for example) as P2W, and two people argued that, as long as it includes at least one item that has value to other players (from +99 all stats to a cute Memory of Lovers costume), an indirect conversion from cash points to Zeny or other in-game items will be possible. You may not like or even want those items yourself; nonetheless, you're getting ahead in-game and acquiring money (and therefore, or instead) items not by playing, but by swiping your credit card. That's a textbook definition of P2W.

Disagreeing with this was not the problem, per se, even though it's a valid point; suggesting whoever brings this up is a salty man who hasn't the income to do it himself, and is therefore moved by jealousy, is the problem, because not only it's an attack to the person and not the argument, but the arguments were neither aggressive nor aimed to provoke you in specific: it's like biting a helping hand. Which, coupled with the fact you're playing a server infamous for its predatory greediness, only suggests that you're the one who's secretly stirred by the implications of this subject. In short, it was unfair, it was dishonest, and one could even argue it's another freudian slip, and it all came from the left field. You brought this upon yourself.
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NimbleStorm

This discussion on P2W servers and the monetization strategies employed by different servers is particularly valuable. It's clear that there is a spectrum of approaches, and to me, responsible server administrators should aim to strike a balance that supports the server's sustainability without compromising the gaming experience for players.

An emphasis on fair and balanced donation systems, where benefits are available to both donors and non-donors, is a positive step toward creating an inclusive and enjoyable gaming environment. The challenges posed by real money trading (RMT) are also acknowledged, and the role of responsible server administration in mitigating its negative impacts is crucial.

As long as there are dedicated players and competent server owners/staff who are committed to providing engaging and fair experiences, private server communities can continue to thrive and the magic of Ragnarok Online lives on! Talk about nostalgia, eh...? Lol.
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