RateMyServer Ragnarok Community

RateMyServer.Net => Server Discussion => Topic started by: AkQ on May 14, 2016, 02:30 PM

Title: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: AkQ on May 14, 2016, 02:30 PM
Hi!

I have been checking DoM from time to time since it was released and i was looking forward to play there after summer vacations started.

Now it has been shut down, but there is no information whatsoever in this forum nor in reddit.

What happened?
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Shilo on May 14, 2016, 02:45 PM
I've never heard of Dawn of Madrid?

Was this a server?
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Bue on May 14, 2016, 03:34 PM
Who knows, their drama never reach RMS.

According to their main page, they begin with 'due to recent events.'

But the admin of the server comes around, maybe he can comment.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Yuzo on May 15, 2016, 02:07 AM
I followed their forum but didn't play, so I can only know so much.

Their admin, Zinnia, listened too much to players and implemented just about anything. Too much bowing down to cliques.
One of the WOE guilds, the Russian one, broke the economy by abusing some exploit (not sure what this was). Zinnia removed it, but that only caused the other guilds to be even further behind.
Lots of community conflict between PVM and WOE players. One of the stupid things they made was you can't enter a castle if your guild didn't have 10 people online. Just cause the woe guilds wouldn't stop b1tching about griefers (even though its part of the game). They can't deal with random breakers strolling past their def so they b**** so hard that Zinnia bowed down to them.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: snowblind on May 15, 2016, 04:20 AM
I followed their forum as well, was going to wait for at least a year and see if the server is still healthy before investing any time into it.

Even with the reasons Yuzo gave, I can't imagine the playercount dropping from (presumably) 1000 to 0 in just 1 or 2 weeks? Exploits can be dealt with quietly by wiping items and zeny from the exploiters. That leaves the economy with a lot of "printed" zeny from the things they bought, but that only hurts new players, not really something to quit over..

It's funny how lower rates are supposed to be more stable, but it's just the opposite.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Yuzo on May 15, 2016, 04:46 AM
Players quitting seemed to come from the realization the server had no future. They were still 200-300 strong after the flock left, which is nothing to scoff at, but you could tell from Zinnia's tone the server was not going to last. As soon as people sense that, it's over.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Playtester on May 15, 2016, 01:51 PM
The population dropped over the span of 2 months actually.

When Tree of Savior started, most casual PVE gamers left to play that instead, which mostly left WoE players.
Then there was pre-trans WoE, but the attacking guild found themselves to be completely unable to win and they just quit WoE. Which also caused the defending guild to quit because "Everyone is so weak lately, boring." And because PT WoE was dead, the guilds that joined to join it also quit.
Then the same thing happened in WoE SE. One of the guilds became too strong, nobody could beat it. People accused guild to hack because they couldn't beat it. Drama drama drama, everybody tired of drama, quit.
Then the server was about to die anyway and Tree of Savior put a 50% discount on their early access, so most people left at that point.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Minabe on May 16, 2016, 12:34 AM
Doing Tripper's job.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Yuzo on May 16, 2016, 12:48 AM
Quote from: Minabe on May 16, 2016, 12:34 AM
That's how the Cookie crumbles. Guess Zinnia learned something from him, if only how to destroy your own work the evidence.
Yeah I think that's a really bad look to try bury your skeletons. Its better to own up and learn from them. Big mistake, I reckon.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Voryry on May 16, 2016, 10:08 AM
PVM-wise, there might be a wisdom in not making things too easy. Levelling was too fast in DoM v1, and too boring. Same maps, same parties, same roles.

You can't just give every screaming whiners whatever they want. Spoiled kids have shorter and shorter attention span.

I wish to see v2 soon, but on the other hand I also wish them sufficient time to prepare better set up.

Just hope it won't be too long, otherwise the audience would have moved on.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: snowblind on May 16, 2016, 08:17 PM
Quote from: Voryry on May 16, 2016, 10:08 AM
Levelling was too fast in DoM v1, and too boring. Same maps, same parties, same roles.
What did people expect? Exploring every map on a great journey like it's the first year of RO? It's always gonna be the same s*** on "close to official" servers.

I'm convinced at this point that RO servers are not sustainable without tons of custom content. People always get bored.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Voryry on May 17, 2016, 07:16 AM
Not really. There are some set of maps people go to in every server, and most maps noone is around.

However in DoM v1 it was even more linear than that, everyone went to Anolian, Magma, and some Majo. 99.9% LFM & LFP in party chats were all about those places.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 17, 2016, 08:50 AM
I'm surprised some people still ask that question. My apologize if the information hasnt been shared enough.

Basically, some woe guilds (at least 5 of them) abused the hell out of zeny bugs (Rogue/Monk Quests, Infinite Plant Cultivation), generating billions worth of zeny within a month. That blew up the economy. Players pointed out that a guild in particular was botting (they were not), and the IRC channels started to become extremely discouraging. Despite our constant and doubled efforts against bots, and the fixing of these "exploits" (that are actually present on every ragnarok server since forever), players kept leaving weeks after weeks due to discouragement, until there were only 10~20 concurrent players. Below 40 active players, there was no point in keeping the server online.

tldr; woe guilds abusing zeny bugs, toxic players generating misinformation.

We are currently working on a Version 2 with a lot more of preparation. The V1 (let's consider it a beta!) has been very useful to identify flaws that we'll make sure are fixed. We kept records of every donation in an excel document and will return accounts with 1/1 novice and their donation points when we open the v2.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Yuzo on May 17, 2016, 09:03 AM
@Zinnia but why did you have to hide all your skeletons in the closet? i.e. why did you kill your forum without notice
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 17, 2016, 09:11 AM
Quote from: Yuzo on May 17, 2016, 09:03 AM
@Zinnia but why did you have to hide all your skeletons in the closet? i.e. why did you kill your forum without notice

???

We did notice at least 2 weeks in advance. There was multiple topics about that. I said the server would shut down early may so we could save some more $ for the reopening.
I even made a very long topic about transparency, sharing with everyone everything that happened since early march and the difficulties we had to face within the staff.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 17, 2016, 09:17 AM
Quote from: snowblind on May 16, 2016, 08:17 PM
What did people expect? Exploring every map on a great journey like it's the first year of RO? It's always gonna be the same s*** on "close to official" servers.

I'm convinced at this point that RO servers are not sustainable without tons of custom content. People always get bored.

Yeah. That's why I want to take some time before a re-opening. We rushed the launch with only 2 months worth of work. After that, between all the necessary qol for the hardcore pop and the bugs to fix it was rather difficult to produce entertaining new content. And hell, we had maintenances every week. Its not like if we touched our ****.

If you want to build a RO server at least as ambitious as DoM you need at least 6~ months of preparation and 2 months of beta. NovaRO and Talon are already excellent established servers on the market with lots of content. If you join the market with a simple ra/herc dump you won't last long.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: nile on May 18, 2016, 07:33 PM
Quote from: Playtester on May 15, 2016, 01:51 PM
Then there was pre-trans WoE, but the attacking guild found themselves to be completely unable to win and they just quit WoE. Which also caused the defending guild to quit because "Everyone is so weak lately, boring." And because PT WoE was dead, the guilds that joined to join it also quit.
There were a bunch of people who said they would play pt yet only a few did (this is at the start of dom). We had a situation for a few weeks where amnesia was going to play but not ready, then when we are told they are 100% coming (which means 3 full guilds), neither Amnesia or scrubs turn up. We also heard suicide squad was going to play but never saw them either. People just didn't care enough for pt, then when my guild started dominating the loudmouth egomaniacs quit

"Exploits" and ways to farm zeny super fast are why low rates aren't as good for the woe scene. mid rates are where its at
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Koh on May 18, 2016, 08:37 PM
Quote from: Zinnia on May 17, 2016, 09:17 AM
Yeah. That's why I want to take some time before a re-opening. We rushed the launch with only 2 months worth of work. After that, between all the necessary qol for the hardcore pop and the bugs to fix it was rather difficult to produce entertaining new content. And hell, we had maintenances every week. Its not like if we touched our ****.

If you want to build a RO server at least as ambitious as DoM you need at least 6~ months of preparation and 2 months of beta. NovaRO and Talon are already excellent established servers on the market with lots of content. If you join the market with a simple ra/herc dump you won't last long.

Will you have the forum up again at some point pre-opening to discuss the problems that beset the server? To be honest I really liked it and only left because my friends couldn't play much anymore. The pre-trans part of the server was what hooked me in the first place but did not pan out how I had hoped. If you are truly committed to a re-opening I will certainly try it again, but 2 major changes that I think would help would be to
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Playtester on May 19, 2016, 03:11 AM
Currently all that kind of discussion is going on mostly on the Discord channel.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 19, 2016, 07:10 AM
We will have a forum pre-launch that presents all the new features & systems, and an open beta to test them. As usual, everything will be up to discussion on the forum.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Yuzo on May 23, 2016, 08:06 AM
Zinnia I think you have proven yourself enough. The fact you have tried to delete traces of your server is shameful. Own up to your mistakes, don't push them in a corner. There was no need to deactive your facebook or shut down website/forum without a clear announcement. Yeah, you made some topics which made mention of it, but i didnt see your announcement section move once.


People are more likely to trust you when they can see you're using those mistakes to improve yourself.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 23, 2016, 02:12 PM
Quote from: Yuzo on May 23, 2016, 08:06 AM
Zinnia I think you have proven yourself enough. The fact you have tried to delete traces of your server is shameful. Own up to your mistakes, don't push them in a corner. There was no need to deactive your facebook or shut down website/forum without a clear announcement. Yeah, you made some topics which made mention of it, but i didnt see your announcement section move once.

People are more likely to trust you when they can see you're using those mistakes to improve yourself.

"shut down website/forum without a clear announcement"

There was. We were pretty clear about it. Unfortunately hosting costs money. We kept everything online until the last possible moment. We even had an announcement up after the fact (which was on a free host and completely obliterated the bandwidth cap there for even just a static page). Nobody is hiding sh*t. We made Dawn of Midgard and we're proud of it. Proud of the community we gathered and who still follows us today. I wouldn't want to delete any trace of that. People should know me for the person who built DoM, I will never be ashamed of it.

Facebook was paused to not affect the Edgerank until we eventually want to open the page again for further announcement.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Minabe on May 23, 2016, 07:34 PM
Doing Tripper's job.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 23, 2016, 09:42 PM
Why would I tell on RMS & Reddit that I am the owner of DoM and we're working on a second version if I was trying to delete every trace of it?

I like debating, but if that's all your arguments or if you're looking for a drama on RMS about DoM then don't count on me.

Whether you like it or not, all I said was true. If you don't believe it, then ask anyone else in the team. They can answer on our discord.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Yuzo on May 23, 2016, 10:36 PM
Quote from: Zinnia on May 23, 2016, 09:42 PM
Why would I tell on RMS & Reddit that I am the owner of DoM and we're working on a second version if I was trying to delete every trace of it?

I like debating, but if that's all your arguments or if you're looking for a drama on RMS about DoM then don't count on me.

Whether you like it or not, all I said was true. If you don't believe it, then ask anyone else in the team. They can answer on our discord.
What about your general public who don't read sh1t like that? You know, the average player who will only read what's in their patcher, maybe occasionally visit the forum? I get you want people involvement, but it seems you forgot about a good portion of your playerbase. Those types don't go searching on reddit or forums outside of announcements, let alone discord...
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 23, 2016, 10:48 PM
Quote from: Yuzo on May 23, 2016, 10:36 PM
What about your general public who don't read sh1t like that? You know, the average player who will only read what's in their patcher, maybe occasionally visit the forum? I get you want people involvement, but it seems you forgot about a good portion of your playerbase. Those types don't go searching on reddit or forums outside of announcements, let alone discord...

And I apologized if those people weren't informed!

We closed the server when there was not even 40 daily active players. I assumed all of them were aware it was gonna close as we announced at least 2 weeks before.
Either way, I don't see the point in keeping the website and the forum online after those 2 weeks, when we could keep the money to pay the first months of the next round.

What's done is done. We explained the reasons why we closed multiple times and if necessary we will explain them again on the new forum, adding what we will do to to make sure they're not repeated again. There is no reason in stirring up the past again and again. We're focusing on our new project now and participating in pseudo-dramas is the last thing we want to do.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Minabe on May 24, 2016, 04:20 AM
Doing Tripper's job.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: tomosuke on May 24, 2016, 07:52 AM
Quote from: Minabe on May 24, 2016, 04:20 AM
There's no reason to but my curiosity always gets the better of me, btw what number will this new project be? And why do you talk in plural now?
I refers to Zinnia's personal actions. We refers to the team of DoM. I don't think it was curiosity when Zinnia explained what the situation was and you said it's a load of crap, you're just being hateful. I don't particularly think it's fair to say he's hiding things. If he was hiding things, he would let y'all speculate instead of coming out and saying something.

tl;dr
There was an announcement, it wasn't that well executed since some of the staff were already busy/have left.
He apologized that some people were left out.

Can we move on? I don't see any point in keeping this thread open any longer unless someone else wants to go on another hateful fishing edition.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Minabe on May 24, 2016, 07:33 PM
Doing Tripper's job.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: BestPlayerEver on May 24, 2016, 11:45 PM
Is anyone actually surprised?

No server with a player base of 95% woe only players will ever be sustainable. Look at the successful/highly populated servers, woe is not the main reason they're there.

Life cycle of a woe server; create hype about server, everyone rushes to said hyped server, server is successful for a few months/a year at most, admin does some stupid s*** that pisses everyone off OR woe guilds ragequit, everyone leaves and then recycle again.

Ragnarok is just a dying game with servers dying frequently. I personally quit RO after Woon Pre-renewal died.

I was gonna give DoM one year before I joined it, good thing I did that, I didn't waste my time.

I feel like Zinnia is just smarter than midrate admins. He's creating low-rate servers so that the cycle I mentioned lasts longer and thus he generates more income. Of course he might actually enjoy hosting Ragnarok, but the cash/longevity of a low-rate woe server is undeniably more than a midrate.

I'll check up on RO in a few years again, hopefully it's still up.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 25, 2016, 02:37 PM
Quote from: Minabe on May 24, 2016, 07:33 PM
In a dif thread i have already stablished his character

Thank you for admitting it's pure hate. I don't even know what you have against me but please move on, I'm not interested.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Minabe on May 25, 2016, 04:44 PM
Doing Tripper's job.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 25, 2016, 05:07 PM
Quote from: Minabe on May 25, 2016, 04:44 PM
Last post from me in this thread so you can go wild /no1 (but you didn't wanted to take part in drama lol).

EDIT: Are you gonna answer the questions or just ignore them and excuse yourself? <- Rhetoric

Or how to go "You don't want to take part of the drama but if you don't answer my questions you're a p u s s y". I feel like in Kindergarten.

Listen. Noone wants to see a 1v1 drama between you and me on this forum. I answered to the topic because I don't like false allegations. If I didn't answer to these questions

Quote from: Minabe on May 24, 2016, 04:20 AM
There's no reason to but my curiosity always gets the better of me, btw what number will this new project be? And why do you talk in plural now?

... it's because I didn't understand them. What number are you referring to ? The number of RO servers I created ? I made only DoM, never got close to a Staff before ggRO and I didn't lead anything there. What plural ? Plural to drama(s) ? Maybe because I'm just referring to dramaSSSSS in general ?

Like really, once again, I like debatting. If you have questions about any of my actions about DoM or my experience on RO in the past I will be glad to answer them, provide you a context and eventually try to convince you that I probably didn't do 99% of the things you seem to accuse me of,  but if you don't want to be convinced I can't do anything else for you.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Nevermind on May 25, 2016, 07:42 PM
A low rate server catering to WoE guilds had no chance of lasting. If DoM 2 has the same goal, you're already going to be disappointed. The server was also really a mid-rate, despite being advertised as a low rate. With double battle manuals and the party boost, the rates was closer to 20x. No wonder PvM died so quickly.

I dearly hope this is not the plan for 2.0
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Bue on May 26, 2016, 11:35 PM
Quote from: Nevermind on May 25, 2016, 07:42 PM
A low rate server catering to WoE guilds had no chance of lasting. If DoM 2 has the same goal, you're already going to be disappointed. The server was also really a mid-rate, despite being advertised as a low rate. With double battle manuals and the party boost, the rates was closer to 20x. No wonder PvM died so quickly.

I dearly hope this is not the plan for 2.0

I don't know. I got the idea that their going to double down on what they had done before.

Because otherwise they would be wrong in their methods and not because they didn't have enough time or were too ambitious.

Though, I am surprise they went down faster than GGRO.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 27, 2016, 07:36 AM
We are not going to use the same formula. However I really can't communicate anything else more than "We are working on it" right now, I'm sorry!

Quote from: Bue on May 26, 2016, 11:35 PM
Though, I am surprise they went down faster than GGRO.

We didn't. ggRO opened On Dec. 22nd and closed in April.
We opened on Dec. 26th and closed in May.

But that's sorta the same anyway :/
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Bue on May 27, 2016, 05:13 PM
Quote from: Zinnia on May 27, 2016, 07:36 AM
We are not going to use the same formula. However I really can't communicate anything else more than "We are working on it" right now, I'm sorry!

We didn't. ggRO opened On Dec. 22nd and closed in April.
We opened on Dec. 26th and closed in May.

But that's sorta the same anyway :/

Oh, I stand corrected, guess I am just bias because cawi was part of it.

So how are you guys funded? I was under the impression your team all have day-jobs and pool together private funds. Or do you guys depend mainly on donations to survive or as incentive to continue?

Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on May 28, 2016, 07:30 AM
Quote from: Bue on May 27, 2016, 05:13 PM
Oh, I stand corrected, guess I am just bias because cawi was part of it.

So how are you guys funded? I was under the impression your team all have day-jobs and pool together private funds. Or do you guys depend mainly on donations to survive or as incentive to continue?

Right now ? Noone is paid, we rely exclusively on the donations. But we're all aware of it! Its fine.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on May 30, 2016, 07:00 PM
I you rely on donations, why would you start a server at all? If your target for this is the same group, your lifespan will be 3,4 months as usual with that choice.
Playtester is someone with a lot of dedication but he can't save you to make a Renewal emulator run as Pre-Renewal as it was. He does have the spirit but just one person can't have enough knowledge to change either Rathena or Hercules emulator to the same stage stage as eathena was. Despite all the bugs it had it still was way better for entertainment. Did anyone release a working AI for Homunculus or Mercenary for this emulator for instance? Nope, they won't release a default Mirai with changed ID for Homunculus, they just don't care about pre-renewal. You have to deliver proof to convince them even. Neither Rathena or Hercules do have the same ethic approach as it was with eathena. It will be very difficult to achieve the same lvl of experience as it was back in those days.They hide behind some hidden forum and it is your fault if can't reach them. Just as you are hiding behind discord. The casual player will not connect to you, you have to find them. Your server wasn't bad, not bad at all. Your main problem is you are going too much into problems of protecting against cheating, problems that you eventually did create yourself. You can't, control it, in that view they demolished this game to the bone already. The only ones you are hurting are the legit players, who get just get more disadvantages.
Again, your server wasn't bad, it was mainly just for the current leading WOE guilds. Not many legit player playing searching for entertainment likes to play with them anyway. The WOE scene was always small compared to the players present on a sever.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: motherflippin on Jun 12, 2016, 02:33 PM
So which players abused the zenny things?

Because like every farming spot was ultranerfed but some guilds still exploited. Why didn't they get punished?

I do remember all these 'Player 01' spam making the kafra hats.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Blinzer on Jun 13, 2016, 02:08 AM
The enjoyment of this thread is getting to see the same people who were sucking DoM's dong before it opened now trash talking the server.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Playtester on Jun 13, 2016, 05:25 AM
Wait a sec. rAthena supports pre-renewal perfectly well. It has all the features eAthena had plus hundreds of bugfixes that are relevant for pre-renewal. Except for some horrible code mess-ups that some um... less talented devs did, but that I mostly re-fixed, I really don't see why people would think that eAthena is better for pre-re (except if they actually want the bugs that I fixed on rAthena unfixed).
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on Jun 15, 2016, 02:12 AM
The bug fix on Lif Mental Charge is a good example how perfect rAthena supports pre-renewal and how their approach is regarding pre-renewal.
Fixing bugs is fine but done from a subjective view it is a disaster.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Playtester on Jun 15, 2016, 07:29 AM
Okay, so basically you're bothered by bugfixes. But this has nothing to do with eAthena / rAthena mentality. eAthena also had a close-to-official rule and would have fixed the bug too if it was reported. The reason why eAthena is "bugged" like that is mostly because players never reported bugs that are to their advantage and Skotlex, the main eAthena dev, didn't even play RO, so he had to rely on player reports.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on Jun 15, 2016, 02:43 PM
Mental Charge had never a cool down time when using teleport in pre-renewal.
It all changed when rAthena start to use the Renewal client claiming it was still possible to switch to pre-renewal with no consequences.
The Mental Charge skill is a very good example for the rAthena mentality. They claimed right away it was actually a bug that Gravity forgot to fix, so they did it afterwards.
This is not a bug that players did hide secretly, it was how game was played.
Many players have reported this but rAthena now claiming they are not aware of it because it never was addressed correctly.
This is going on for years now, rAthena wasn't able or didn't want to change it back but they are aware of it.
Just one example, many things are very different and it got even worse when start to copy Classic also.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Blinzer on Jun 16, 2016, 05:17 PM
Quote from: Styx on Jun 15, 2016, 02:43 PM
Mental Charge had never a cool down time when using teleport in pre-renewal.
It all changed when rAthena start to use the Renewal client claiming it was still possible to switch to pre-renewal with no consequences.
The Mental Charge skill is a very good example for the rAthena mentality. They claimed right away it was actually a bug that Gravity forgot to fix, so they did it afterwards.
This is not a bug that players did hide secretly, it was how game was played.
Many players have reported this but rAthena now claiming they are not aware of it because it never was addressed correctly.
This is going on for years now, rAthena wasn't able or didn't want to change it back but they are aware of it.
Just one example, many things are very different and it got even worse when start to copy Classic also.

If you want something done, do it yourself.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Wyvern on Jun 17, 2016, 09:39 AM
People are used to playing with the eA bugs, and in some cases, it can be more fun with them. But yeah, I'm glad a lot of them are getting fixed.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on Jun 19, 2016, 02:41 PM
Quote from: Blinzer on Jun 16, 2016, 05:17 PM
If you want something done, do it yourself.

That approach, is one of the problems indeed.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Minabe on Jun 20, 2016, 12:48 AM
Doing Tripper's job.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Playtester on Jun 20, 2016, 04:30 AM
Well, it's true that some things are a bit debatable, like checking if something is a bug or not. Going by logic, it feels that cooldown resetting on teleport / re-hatch was never the intended behavior. Why else would they put a high cooldown and make it so that on higher skill levels the percentual active time of the skill increases?

I guess that's one of the grey areas. I'd make it optional, but I don't even know how it was originally implemented. If someone could link me the commit that changed it, I'd take a look though.

And yes, it's an open source project so you can always help fixing things yourself. If you provide a full fix to rAthena + proof, I'm sure an rA dev will apply it. If things are official we pretty much always accept them.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: blame20 on Jun 20, 2016, 11:32 AM
I look forward for version 2 of DOM. I'm about to try the server out but I'm in the wrong timing and not aware of the current issues about the server.  /heh I'm a player of low-rate server. Already tried 3 low rate servers. :) I'm a potential player of the version 2 of DOM. I'll be looking forward for the 2nd version of DOM, Zinnia. Stay positive mate.  /no1
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on Jun 20, 2016, 07:57 PM
Quote from: Playtester on Jun 20, 2016, 04:30 AM
Well, it's true that some things are a bit debatable, like checking if something is a bug or not. Going by logic, it feels that cooldown resetting on teleport / re-hatch was never the intended behavior. Why else would they put a high cooldown and make it so that on higher skill levels the percentual active time of the skill increases?

I guess that's one of the grey areas. I'd make it optional, but I don't even know how it was originally implemented. If someone could link me the commit that changed it, I'd take a look though.

And yes, it's an open source project so you can always help fixing things yourself. If you provide a full fix to rAthena + proof, I'm sure an rA dev will apply it. If things are official we pretty much always accept them.

You know I respect your efforts and dedication, do not doubt that I do. Many bugs resolved from rAthena were good indeed. However, that doesn't stop me to trigger you where it goes wrong. The cooldown resetting on teleport wasn't the intended behavior but in practice this bug was so good it made Lif actually playable and competable against Vanil. (Before A*hole like Zinnia developed a way to exploit it, though that would never be the approach of a casual player) So, they never changed it until Renewal came (It wouldn't matter because of Homunculus-S but it does if you still run Pre-Renewal) and later Classic, which was actually based on Renewal as well. Classic isn't really to consider as Classic for that matter. There is no good working Mirai available for instance, if it would work proper anyway. I have a working one and an tweaked Azzy one as well but it will be a bridge to far for your casual or returning player to get it working, they won't recognize the changed ID's by far and rAthena never bothered with it either. I am only aware of Hercules devs working on it to give a solution. Still it is just an example, this renewal client with hard delays is very stubborn and changed many things and I am aware I only know a few things because I still can remember how it was. Like there was no cooldown on Chaotic Blessings back in those days but now there is.

Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Playtester on Jun 21, 2016, 04:17 AM
iRO classic isn't renewal based. I found several differences in skills when testing. If it's fixed there, then I consider it correct on rAthena too.
You are right though that many problems are created by using the renewal client. However, there's nothing I can do for that.

Creating balanced gameplay isn't the job or goal of rAthena (and wasn't of eAthena either). That's left up to the server owners.

Alone the fact that everybody just gets the same Homun clearly shows that it isn't balanced at all. If it was about creating balance I wouldn't solve it by allowing a weird cooldown bug, though. I'd rather balance all the homun skills so all four of them are reasonable choices.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Blinzer on Jun 23, 2016, 04:26 AM
Quote from: Styx on Jun 20, 2016, 07:57 PM
You know I respect your efforts and dedication, do not doubt that I do. Many bugs resolved from rAthena were good indeed. However, that doesn't stop me to trigger you where it goes wrong. The cooldown resetting on teleport wasn't the intended behavior but in practice this bug was so good it made Lif actually playable and competable against Vanil. (Before A*hole like Zinnia developed a way to exploit it, though that would never be the approach of a casual player) So, they never changed it until Renewal came (It wouldn't matter because of Homunculus-S but it does if you still run Pre-Renewal) and later Classic, which was actually based on Renewal as well. Classic isn't really to consider as Classic for that matter. There is no good working Mirai available for instance, if it would work proper anyway. I have a working one and an tweaked Azzy one as well but it will be a bridge to far for your casual or returning player to get it working, they won't recognize the changed ID's by far and rAthena never bothered with it either. I am only aware of Hercules devs working on it to give a solution. Still it is just an example, this renewal client with hard delays is very stubborn and changed many things and I am aware I only know a few things because I still can remember how it was. Like there was no cooldown on Chaotic Blessings back in those days but now there is.

Dog.

Before reading this post, I want you to know that I don't think you deserve a single word I'm about to say.


Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/lmREDqR.png)
[close]

You are literally 3 seconds away from changing the delay to be reasonably comparable to whatever utility it presented before, without even needing to change the source. If you actually got off your butt and wanted to make a change in the world with your "amazing" knowledge, you would have figured this out, contacted the admin of whatever server you play on, explain to them your flawless reasoning which they no doubt would agree with, and guide them through the steps of making the change.

What appears to me as such a contradiction here is that despite this amazing knowledge you claim to present(and makes you think you have the right to go around aimlessly firing at people), you failed to put it to good use to the world because blabbing was the extent of your ability. Even by following the rules of your own argument, you are the problem here because you don't make the difference between the problem existing and not existing. It takes the guy you called the "problem" to figure it out for you.


People who complain about everything but do nothing are so insufferable.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Zinnia on Jun 23, 2016, 10:51 PM
(just dropping by and reading Styx calling me an a**hats and implies i'm a cheater, good!)

I used to agree to that point of view but now I don't think emulators should be in charge of the balance of RO. RO is a flawed game by definition because too old. There's great charms to it but some of its elements are just wrong for the occidental F2P MMORPG player. And it includes game balance. Though when we see some games like Blade & Soul released in 2015 and with a game balance probably as poor as RO, I don't think the problem lies in the hands of the developpers anymore.

Anyway, I believe it's the job of the product managers / server admins to adapt their servers to the market they want to target. Fixing RO as a whole makes little to no sense when some of your playerbase actually likes those bugs. It's something that I came to understand with DoM. Whatever you do you will always have people disagreeing with you. And when you touch a skill, or game balance, you potentially ruin the fun of hundred of players, whether this "fix" is fair or not.

I used to believe RO should be fixed and the playerbase educated to acknowledge what they liked was a bug, but the game has been way too customized by the emulators and the server admins over the years than fixing some of these mechanics permanently would potentially be followed by a massive leave of casuals. Consequently, blaming Playtester and the emulators for not trying to "fix" RO is in my current opinion wrong. As someone very wise said in this topic: if you want something done, do it yourself.


and btw :

Quote from: blame20 on Jun 20, 2016, 11:32 AM
I look forward for version 2 of DOM. I'm about to try the server out but I'm in the wrong timing and not aware of the current issues about the server.  /heh I'm a player of low-rate server. Already tried 3 low rate servers. :) I'm a potential player of the version 2 of DOM. I'll be looking forward for the 2nd version of DOM, Zinnia. Stay positive mate.  /no1

thank you <3 I've good hope I can start working on it again in july. I think I might have found a solution to player retention issues and woe/casual communities clash. Whenever we get close to the release, I'll communicate clearly about all the key elements of DoM v2 via emails and social medias.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Minabe on Jun 26, 2016, 03:17 AM
Doing Tripper's job.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on Jun 26, 2016, 08:08 PM
Quote from: Playtester on Jun 21, 2016, 04:17 AM
iRO classic isn't renewal based. I found several differences in skills when testing. If it's fixed there, then I consider it correct on rAthena too.
You are right though that many problems are created by using the renewal client. However, there's nothing I can do for that.

Creating balanced gameplay isn't the job or goal of rAthena (and wasn't of eAthena either). That's left up to the server owners.

Alone the fact that everybody just gets the same Homun clearly shows that it isn't balanced at all. If it was about creating balance I wouldn't solve it by allowing a weird cooldown bug, though. I'd rather balance all the homun skills so all four of them are reasonable choices.

It isn't about balance, it is about how it was. Ro was never balanced and it never will be.
For pre-renewal I still prefer eAthena above rAthena because it is closer to how it was.
Not every player will get the same Homun. There are specific reasons to choose a different one.
An available and good working public AI for rAthena (all Homuns) would be an improvement.
Though it was just an example, SG Miracle now having Renewal values would be just another one of many.

Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on Jun 27, 2016, 02:00 AM
Quote from: Blinzer on Jun 23, 2016, 04:26 AM
Dog.

Before reading this post, I want you to know that I don't think you deserve a single word I'm about to say.


Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/lmREDqR.png)
[close]

You are literally 3 seconds away from changing the delay to be reasonably comparable to whatever utility it presented before, without even needing to change the source. If you actually got off your butt and wanted to make a change in the world with your "amazing" knowledge, you would have figured this out, contacted the admin of whatever server you play on, explain to them your flawless reasoning which they no doubt would agree with, and guide them through the steps of making the change.

What appears to me as such a contradiction here is that despite this amazing knowledge you claim to present(and makes you think you have the right to go around aimlessly firing at people), you failed to put it to good use to the world because blabbing was the extent of your ability. Even by following the rules of your own argument, you are the problem here because you don't make the difference between the problem existing and not existing. It takes the guy you called the "problem" to figure it out for you.


People who complain about everything but do nothing are so insufferable.

You should try that first indeed, it might be more complicated.

http://irowiki.org/classic/Mental_Charge (http://irowiki.org/classic/Mental_Charge)
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Blinzer on Jun 27, 2016, 07:29 PM
Quote from: Styx on Jun 27, 2016, 02:00 AM
You should try that first indeed, it might be more complicated.

http://irowiki.org/classic/Mental_Charge (http://irowiki.org/classic/Mental_Charge)

... Jesus christ.
Title: Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
Post by: Styx on Jul 20, 2016, 06:18 PM
Now, did you try it to change these and see what the effect really is? Or are you consisting in referring to a code that should do the job, but it doesn't really?
I don't have amazing knowledge, I just try things that are different from the usual brainless copycat line. For instance many servers run rAthena with the Renewal monster AI.
Now, while this looks very challenging but in fact it defaults the game to have less choices, there is just one build one strat possible.
Mainly based on either high Dex or tank ability's but many other choices could be possible under real pre-renewal settings.
There is no ultimate choice or strat, it depends on the situation, you have to make a choice, that is why Ro was so good, that choice could make the difference in a specific situation.
For instance on Feelro with Megiddo Guild I would like to take on the Sniper MVP right away, because I had an Osiris card. This was against What Guild and we stole it three times in a row. Then What Guild, pretty good players and guild also, developed a new strat to counter this. The thing is if I never had done this What Guild would still win this MVP with the strat they usual used.
That is what Ro is really is about, someone else makes you considering your own strat. What guild was good they weren't stubborn and changed their strat to counter it successfully.
Maybe you think too much in lanes, for sure there are many things I don't know but there are many things I do know also. A Champ with 3 AK's I will outdamage in real pre-renewal but not on this rAthena junk running Renewal monster-AI. Now it is your turn to say something stupid, but I will learn from it anyway, so go ahead.