The Cost of being Balanced?

[Scribbles]

I see a lot of servers that decide completely different things to nerf or disable completely to make things balanced. Some servers kinda look like they favor certain classes over others, and other servers with the same rates will have more things nerfed or less things disabled although they have nearly the same features.
What do you think should be nerfed or changed. Or is there a general list of things that just Should  be done.

[XicoR4]

It's not an easy question to answer, it depends on what you're aiming for. The definition of balance will vary wildly depending on who you ask. The general idea though is that a game is balanced when your chance to win/succeed depends mainly on your skill.
Attaining perfect balance isn't necessarily good though, just look at tic-tac-toe, it's the most balanced game in the world but that doesn't make it entertaining, you need to have some variety in the gameplay to make it engaging.

For starters, RO has a different type of balance than most games, while you can change things, it loses the RO coin-flip feel (Super fast paced, 100% immunity to a status or it be inflicted 100% of the time, instantly kill or die instantly type of thing).

Since you mentioned classes, as far as class balance in RO is concerned (focusing on PvP/WoE), over the last few years (imo since the introduction of trans classes) there has been a decrease in the available options. Any WoE composition nowadays relies mostly on ~5 classes. A lot of classes and previously available builds are just too ineffective nowadays, due to changes on the metagame and especially on available equips. To bring back variety into this game, you have to slightly nerf the most used skills and buff the underused skills either directly or indirectly (changing the emphasis from just ranged skills to also enable melee classes to have an offensive role is a good start).

There's also not much effective variety when it comes to gear (either bg set or proxy + diabolus shoes,  valk armor + d.bash for the melee classes are a couple of examples of de facto gears), a lot of interesting things could be done with gears if people put their minds into it, instead of the regular +hp, -damage from x. You should also look into elemental resistance (too easy to reduce a lot of every element, and it shouldn't be possible to get immunity to 2 elements at once).
Besides all this, the flee penalty in GvG maps in a combo with easily avaiable Bragi'd Acid Demo makes both Vit and Agi pretty much useless as defensive stats.

For PvM, things like extreme stun lock (this also affects PvP but to a lesser degree), Monsters without skill delay, wrong skill range/damage, bad monster targeting AI (changing targets when hit by melee skills) are easy enough to fix (and are all just eAthena problems, officials don't have them). But you also have things like bad monster spawns (hunter flies on geffen dungeon level 1 for example), Monster difficulty not scaling well with their experience/drops, certain monster skills that are bad ways to "fix" small problems (like power-up which makes flee useless and makes tanking without pneuma/safety wall extremely hard or earthquake that wipes entire parties, for example).

There's a lot of other stuff that affects the gameplay like NPCs, quests, usable items, status effects, etc... that could be changed for an overall better experience.

I can personally give some small fixes to the most prominent skills or type another wall of text about this topic in more detail if you want me to. However I think this issue is far too complex to tackle on a forum post.

[Ret-ro]

I've seen the game as out of balance since the trans classes were released. :P

While changes I've made for a pre-trans server don't apply to the many trans/3rd class servers out there, I will share some of my thought processes.

Given a party of twelve people, would it be most reasonable to take one of every class (excluding extended)? If not, which classes would get excluded, and which would you double up on?

Would there be total equipment homogeneity? Which equipment or cards could be feasible if there was a slight shift? Which equipment or cards are not in use only because of the meta?

Given the possible builds for a class, is every build feasible enough that at least one person would use it for their main, given dozens of people playing that class?

After thinking a while on these, hopefully you could start to see where changes need to be to make the game 'balanced'.

[Vincentfx3]

I agree with Ret-ro. In fact, I see the game out of balance since 2nd alternative jobs got implemented.

The time I enjoy ragnarok most was before those alternative jobs(crusader, monk, etc...) were implemented. It was really fun back then.

Knights can kill anything in PvP except priest and will lose to blacksmith. Hunters roles are to take down wizards as soon as possible. Assassins are for emp breaking during WoE. Blacksmiths are the most painful physical attacker but they don't have range attacks. Wizards are the weakest solo but combined with a priest, it will become the strongest and will take down a party without a wizard no matter how many they are with just pneuma, storm gust and jupitel thunder as a finisher.

Those are the golden days of ragnarok for me. But since monk came to play, everything is ruined. Priest can't do their roles except for buffing since asura strike takes them out instantly and you know devo crusader is just delaying the inevitable. High strength monks can even 1 shot wizards with throw spirit spheres.

Then they implement, trans class. The game is even more screwed with AD and EDP. I can go on and on but I'll stop at that. That's why I think Ragnarok is synonymous with imbalance or overpower. It's a game that will never be balance no matter what.

On topic, it depends on what mechanics your server is using. If it's renewal mechanic. I believe you only have to nerf spiral pierce. That gloomy spiral pierce you can see on iRO or other official servers are just ridiculous.

But if you're using pre-renewal mechanics. Nerf EDP to what it is now on kRO http://forums.irowiki.org/showthread.php?t=36713

Whenever you use EDP, some skills that are affected with EDP deals half damage. So basically, skills are doing double damage instead of quadruple damage with EDP.

Acid Demonstration is OP too on low drop rates server since it can 1 shot or two shot at a long distance. I don't know how you're going to balance that though so leave it as is. :S

I think cart termination is OP too with its high damage and high chance to stun. But I don't think it needs a change or nerf or you'll piss off your players.

Yes, nerfs, changes and skill modification piss off some players so be careful with it.

I personally don't like skill modification. I prefer skills like how gravity made them. Sure it is imbalance but I'm kind of used to it. That's how Ragnarok is anyway, full of imbalance stuffs lol.

[Belle.]

Game balance isn't just a matter of mechanics but it's influenced by how you actually run a server as well.

[Ret-ro]

Vincent, I certainly agree with you. 2-2 is very hard to balance (though not as bad as trans). If I had to do things again, I would probably not have had 2-2.

On topic, Belle is right. What you make available, and easy to obtain or hard to obtain, as well as quests and donations will also play a huge role in server balance.

[nile]

Balance? Isn't that part of why the meta-game exists. One their own, or with a certain class, they might be OP, but how is it OP when they can't rickroll through a real party. If you have the right classes OP doesn't exist outside the form of cards.

[Skotlex]

Say, those who claim that RO lost balance since 2-2 got into scene, is this exclusively about Ashura Strike, or is there something else? Because all the examples for unbalance with 2-2 classes are based around this skill (whereas, talks of imbalance regarding advanced classes extends to multiple of the new skills).

[Ret-ro]

Asura strike gets a lot of hate because it's the only real spike skill in the game before trans class.

Prior to 2-2, RO was entirely pressure-based. You had to deal consistent damage until pots ran out. In an ideal world, a coordinated spike, I.E. 3-8 people all simultaneously using one skill on someone, that can only be used once every minute or so, makes for a 'good' spike. Unfortunately, the solution provided was a veritable one-shot kill, which made monk balanced only by difficulty of leveling, something which on high-rates and stat/skill reset-able servers is non-existent. If, for example, Asura strike did about half damage, it would probably be fine. Two monks needing to coordinate would provide a barrier to insta-death.

However, it's not the only skill that gets hate. Mental Sensing and Power Chord are also questionable.

[DiesIrae]

I agree with the fact pre-Trans was more balanced. Why? Main reason is less features to consider. Same about the change from Trans to 3rds. Is all about new skills, items and mechanics that modify the old game style (in a worst way, of course). This happens due to Gravity mistake (sometimes they exagerate too) or due to inappropriate use on pservers (becomes abusable features more than usable ones). But take this as a general consideration (it's known that the more features you adds the more is complicated get a true game balance...think to those pservers with 2k customs, skills and classes: most of are pure imba).

Going back to main topic, I wanna make a consideration: Ragnarok Online is not the same game we play on pservers.
I consider the RO pservers more like RO based servers. Change rates, change max levels\stats, add new items and feature (wonder even just about a Warpa...)...makes it  a new game, no longer RO.
This means Admins\Developers should make a work of rebalancing before open a server. Unlucky, most of times (not always anyway) this don't happens.

Why the game results imba and where should need nerfs\changes? (<- based on my RO career during the last 9\10 years)
1. Admins just wants to fill their servers of players: this means give them anything they want. If half population of your server asks for a nerf\leave as it is, they will proceed in that way (don't matters if what is going to come is a good or bad thing, the important is do it). Don't matters if they are first time in RO players, cheaters, item beggers, unfair persons...quality is ignored. So Admin role should be more arbitrary, sometimes ignore player opinions is a good thing (NOTE: this needs RO knowledge, else could be even worst!). Happens too often to see "desperate" Admins literally begging for players (see in example freebies giveaway, transfer packages, rewarded voting, superdonation features, the most stupid thing they could do IMHO): this generates the condition Players > Admin...and this don't have to exist;
2. Lazyness and not being objective: how many times did you joined a server where you was able to counter by 100% 4 or 3 elements at once (or even 5\6 in many HR\SHR case)? Or counter completely certain classes (wonder to GTB vs Magic Classes)? This is cause Admins pretend to leave the game as it is cause is good as it is (lazy wrong ppl) and part of players does too (since they play classes not interessed by this "troubles", so they can get advantage of it = imba). The game should give everyone a chance, to singles, as to parties and guilds;
3. Never allow all advantages at once: the fun part of the game is make always the best choice. Many servers allow too much advantage at once = perfect builds = imba. Examples? Perfect Dodge, Cool Down redux, Magic Immunity, Uber Flee Dodge, Status Immunity (all at once), etc etc...Players should work to build the char, and get a result they like. Else is like play with a GM char: why allow it? No sense;
4. Rates and Item Avaibility: self explanatory. Wonder to spammable EDP\AD 24\7, +10 Valk Manteau (or such gears), Thanatos\Incantation Card on slotted weapons (even worst on custom imba slotted weapons). This means: make em rare as on official (pretty hard due to very lower amount of players) or make em less powerful (more affordable). A parenthesis I wanna do: I don't get why many Admins are worried about GR and Angeling Cards; these cards offer a chance as any other Element Endow armor card...resistance and weakness. And while they make them "rare\hard to get" they implement trash gears\usables that makes the damage 3 times more stronger or weaker... *buh*;
5. Ragnarok Online is a MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game): want to solo? DIE! The solo should be not allowed (except in cases\events that wants explicitly 1vs1). This means mod the PvE and GvG mechanics (exp, drop, dmg received and inflicted, etc etc). This aspect is very ignored. It's the sore of pservers. Noobs that want to win alone like if it is also fun?! Ridiculous. And to be noted also the fact 75% of times they result to be SinX (*sarcasm* Funny, I guess: why? ... );

These are the main reasons on why the game is unbalanced, and where the game should be improved, IMHO.
A guide on "How to balance your server" can't be done. =P Too many variables to consider, not possible.
But would be a great thing change Admins and Players minds. That would help solving so maaaaaany existing problems. I'm 101% sure of it.
I always dreamed to make my own server. But due to low code knowledge (or btw, not as I'd need) and low economic resources to start a server I gotta break this wish. But never say never... x3
If some Admin will result offended by what I said: who cares? If you have 15$ monthly to host a server don't means you are a good Admin that made a good server. =P

(PS: Sorry for my poor english.)

[Vincentfx3]

@ Skotlex

Well if you played RO since the released of 2-2 class or earlier, you should know that rogue's backstab isn't what it is like today. It's way better before, it's a tool to become a killing machine. Back then, you'll see low HP classes dying in less than a second once the rogue showed himself/herself from their backs. Backstab used to deal full damage with bow and does not make the victim face the rogue which means it's SPAMMABLE from a long distance and it doesn't even miss. They don't even need strip skills to kill, it's just a bonus for them. I believe it was nerf at the same time the trans class was release.

Then aside from stalker, the monk. Not just because of asura. Asura was just the most OP skill on their arsenal so it's the most hated one. It does not miss and ignores def! The first skill ever in ragnarok that have that features! It was and still is the most powerful skill in RO. Did you know that monk with high strength can even 1 shot wizard with just throw spirit sphere? I don't know if you can still find old monk guides but most monk guides mention those things. Back then, a knight can't kill a priest alone. A hunter can't either. Even a wizard can't (as long as the priest have unfrozen armor). A blacksmith can with ease. But for monks, it's no problem. No they don't even need asura strike for that. There is this skill called Occult Impaction or Investigate. It can outdamage priest heal on high vit with over ups gears players so as long as the priest is not using pots, you can kill it with just investigate. However, why would you make it hard for yourself if you can just asura strike them for an instant kill right? Much easier and convenient too.

Aside from those two, there's nothing else since the rest of 2-2 class was just support classes. Yes, alchemist doesn't have the AD s*** before! It was just a support class until the release of trans classes.

Then after too many years, gravity decided to balance asura strike and AD. http://forums.irowiki.org/showthread.php?t=79958

I wonder what took them so long? To be honest, I'm already used to it that I'm not even sure if I like those changes or not lol.

[XicoR4]

Then aside from stalker, the monk. Not just because of asura. Asura was just the most OP skill on their arsenal so it's the most hated one. It does not miss and ignores def! The first skill ever in ragnarok that have that features! It was and still is the most powerful skill in RO. Did you know that monk with high strength can even 1 shot wizard with just throw spirit sphere? I don't know if you can still find old monk guides but most monk guides mention those things. Back then, a knight can't kill a priest alone. A hunter can't either. Even a wizard can't (as long as the priest have unfrozen armor). A blacksmith can with ease. But for monks, it's no problem. No they don't even need asura strike for that. There is this skill called Occult Impaction or Investigate. It can outdamage priest heal on high vit with over ups gears players so as long as the priest is not using pots, you can kill it with just investigate. However, why would you make it hard for yourself if you can just asura strike them for an instant kill right? Much easier and convenient too.

Monk was a conceptually flawed class from the very beginning imo.
I believe they were supposed to be an offensive version of Priests, whilst in the actual game they didn't really have a defined role, but could excel at several, depending on their stat/skill allocation. Agi based monks had some extra flee compared to most other classes and combos were a pretty good source of extra DPS (a full combo hits for 1040~1140% ATK). With Snap monks have the best mobility in the game. They also make for good support, having the 2 most useful buffs and Heal. Skills like Investigate and Finger Offensive had pretty high damage modifiers compared to other available offensive skills and Monks also were the best tankers with steel body. All that besides the "godly" Asura Strike.
These skills were supposed to be balanced by the setup time (calling spheres/fury), but that obviously didn't work. This leads me to my next point...

Aside from those two, there's nothing else since the rest of 2-2 class was just support classes. Yes, alchemist doesn't have the AD s*** before! It was just a support class until the release of trans classes.

I can't believe nobody mentioned Poem of Bragi. That is the single most overpowered buff in MMOs I can think of. It increased overall DPS several times for most classes (especially wizards, which were the biggest damage dealing class back then), and almost removed the setup/cast time for other skills.
Dazzler/Frost Joke were also pretty bad skills from a gameplay perspective, they forced pretty much everyone to use Unfrozen 24/7 and have higher amounts of vit (Acid Demonstration came later as an attempt to punish vit based builds because of this).

Asura strike gets a lot of hate because it's the only real spike skill in the game before trans class.

Prior to 2-2, RO was entirely pressure-based. You had to deal consistent damage until pots ran out. In an ideal world, a coordinated spike, I.E. 3-8 people all simultaneously using one skill on someone, that can only be used once every minute or so, makes for a 'good' spike. Unfortunately, the solution provided was a veritable one-shot kill, which made monk balanced only by difficulty of leveling, something which on high-rates and stat/skill reset-able servers is non-existent. If, for example, Asura strike did about half damage, it would probably be fine. Two monks needing to coordinate would provide a barrier to insta-death.

However, it's not the only skill that gets hate. Mental Sensing and Power Chord are also questionable.

Spike skills are a good idea, and work as a way to break that constant war of attrition, because it was impossibly hard to actually kill people back then. While it's frustrating to die instantly, even one hit skills would be fine, as long as it's a last resort type of thing or has enough drawbacks to discourage spamming. A better way to balance Asura Strike would be to add a re-use delay. Makes it work somewhat like a strategic skill (similar to Emergency Recall).

The only other skill that got a lot of hate that I can remember was Backstab (also due to spammibility). Mental Sensing and Power Chord were just used to abuse glitches iirc (Minion Farming, Abra abuse), nothing wrong with the skills themselves.

I agree with the fact pre-Trans was more balanced. Why? Main reason is less features to consider. Same about the change from Trans to 3rds. Is all about new skills, items and mechanics that modify the old game style (in a worst way, of course). This happens due to Gravity mistake (sometimes they exagerate too) or due to inappropriate use on pservers (becomes abusable features more than usable ones). But take this as a general consideration (it's known that the more features you adds the more is complicated get a true game balance...think to those pservers with 2k customs, skills and classes: most of are pure imba).

Well, I think this is the developers' fault though, if you can't reach a certain level of balance with what you have, you shouldn't be releasing more content on top of it, it gets harder and harder to balance (and tbh, except for the sprite artists which just seem to be lazy, Gravity's developers seem rather incompetent, even when they started over with renewal, they managed to botch up).
I do realize money talks louder though, not that many people can afford to work on stuff for years before releasing it.

Going back to main topic, I wanna make a consideration: Ragnarok Online is not the same game we play on pservers.
I consider the RO pservers more like RO based servers. Change rates, change max levels\stats, add new items and feature (wonder even just about a Warpa...)...makes it a new game, no longer RO.
This means Admins\Developers should make a work of rebalancing before open a server. Unlucky, most of times (not always anyway) this don't happens.

Agreed here to some extent. Most Low Rate 99/70 private servers are for all intents and purposes a kRO clone. Officials artificially increase rates (through stuff like repeatable quests, battle manuals, etc...), got MVP rooms (as "Summoning events") and warpers (scrolls, paid NPCs) too. Replace Donations with Kafra Shop and it's basically the same.
The main aspect where these servers differ is population count, and since some skills/quests were made for large amounts of people, they should be re-balanced accordingly.

For other servers, yes, they should re-balance most of the game according to what they offer or just give a different experience (RO has no real endgame content besides WoE/PvP and grinding PvM/MvPs and it's very harsh to new players).

[tenku]

I think balancing has to be done with precision and care. If you try to do too much to balance a server, then you're just going to end up going too far away from the original. A lot of people dislike Renewal because all the 3rd job classes are way too powerful. There are a few great servers that does it just right by balancing the too powerful skills and toning them down.

[Ace]

I think balancing has to be done with precision and care. If you try to do too much to balance a server, then you're just going to end up going too far away from the original. A lot of people dislike Renewal because all the 3rd job classes are way too powerful. There are a few great servers that does it just right by balancing the too powerful skills and toning them down.

Agree! Balancing your server takes time and you must calculate it to make sure it is really balanced (anti to a certain item or job or skill)

[Skotlex]

Ah, I shouldn't have gone away for as long as I did. Though I did read some interesting responses. And above all, balance ideas! I love those.

Of course, I'll probably be implementing this on a server that nobody plays, but at least it'll be balanced :B (though, in all seriousness, I believe I already toned down all those skills that people have complained of before as being overpowered :B)

I kinda wonder why we all got so attached to RO, the balancing team behind the game mechanics seems to have been mostly awful, as soon as the game got popular x_x; Personally, I just liked the cute 2D sprites and background music (of course, I started to hate the art after they introduced advanced classes). Meh... there's a part of me that wishes RO would just die already, it may be beyond salvation (in the balance department ).

[XicoR4]

I kinda wonder why we all got so attached to RO

It's the nostalgia effect mostly, we had fun when we first played RO so we stuck around. There's also the fact that in a MMO you always interact with other people (which means it won't really ever get "old"). Also some people have been playing RO for so long that they are unwilling to move to other games.

Meh... there's a part of me that wishes RO would just die already, it may be beyond salvation (in the balance department ).

RO probably won't die anytime soon, even though it will probably be reduced to a niche of people playing it.

It's not that it is beyond salvation, it's that the people that have the skills to "save it" aren't interested for a number of reasons. The rest of the community is going about it in a way that only hurts the game more (I don't really blame them though). Not to mention first of all you would have to find a common ground on how to improve RO, which, like I said earlier in this thread, will vary according to who you ask.
The amount of work needed to re-balance RO to a level where every class has a role, alternative stat and (especially) gear builds are viable, more than 1/4 of the available skills are actually being used and monster rewards scale properly according to their difficulty (except for the monsters, it's closer to how RO was during it's "golden days") is colossal.

That's just a small fraction of what could be done to improve the game too

[Ancien Regime]

This is a horrible thread. 2-1 RO was s***. And I just feel like, to be honest, there's a lot of buttfrustration in this thread.

Believe it or not, rock paper scissors metagames and metagames where you can pot your way to victory are BAD metagames. They reward having a good matchup as opposed to skill, adaptation, gear, etc. Good metagames should play fast in general; not the boring slugfest it used to be. Also, good metagames should make lots of options available to players, while not attempting to make ALL builds viable (which is stupid).

The primary problem with some of the newer skills is that there wasn't enough of a cost to using them, making them too spammable. Make Asura's SP cooldown apply to recovery items in PVP/WOE, and put a 5 second cooldown on Cloak and make SinXes more fragile . Now, the huge DPS skills are still there, but one has to be more judicious about their use.

But most of this thread just seems like so much complaining that things aren't how they used to be.

[l2ue]

Whoever said this game was suppose to be balance.

The proper solution to all your imbalance problems is to add more imbalance into the game.

Its like crossing a very narrow wooden bridge that is about to collapse under its weight while riding on an elephant. If you get over the bridge, s*** a life achievement. If you fall off the bridge, you have a hell of a story to tell (if you live through the fall).

Here is an example. A couple of years ago, heavily dosed and buffed SinX can one-hit anyone with a sick SB build and decent gear. Obviously imbalance because almost everyone in PvP changed to SinX and everyone in PvP was either cloaked or dead. A lot of homosexuals would ask the admin (who really don't give a f*** about your opinion) to nerf SinX. If you're a professional admin, you would probably do something along the lines off, buffing almost everything and tell the player to stop bothering you. So that you can work on something else that doesn't involve people who are constantly getting rape in PvP asking to nerf everything.

This is a horrible thread. 2-1 RO was s***. And I just feel like, to be honest, there's a lot of buttfrustration in this thread.

Believe it or not, rock paper scissors metagames and metagames where you can pot your way to victory are BAD metagames. They reward having a good matchup as opposed to skill, adaptation, gear, etc. Good metagames should play fast in general; not the boring slugfest it used to be. Also, good metagames should make lots of options available to players, while not attempting to make ALL builds viable (which is stupid).

The primary problem with some of the newer skills is that there wasn't enough of a cost to using them, making them too spammable. Make Asura's SP cooldown apply to recovery items in PVP/WOE, and put a 5 second cooldown on Cloak and make SinXes more fragile . Now, the huge DPS skills are still there, but one has to be more judicious about their use.

But most of this thread just seems like so much complaining that things aren't how they used to be.

The fuck are you smoking.

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

[Anti-Static Foam Cleaner]

This is a horrible thread. 2-1 RO was s***. And I just feel like, to be honest, there's a lot of buttfrustration in this thread.

Believe it or not, rock paper scissors metagames and metagames where you can pot your way to victory are BAD metagames. They reward having a good matchup as opposed to skill, adaptation, gear, etc. Good metagames should play fast in general; not the boring slugfest it used to be. Also, good metagames should make lots of options available to players, while not attempting to make ALL builds viable (which is stupid).

Agreed.

And people b**** about Asura pre-trans? Seriously? Sorry but if you cannot Dispell, Absorb or just Hide then either you're bad or your guild is bad, the end.

[SeleneOfMystique]

Cost of being balanced?

last aug 9 2011 i launched my server..the first thing that i've noticed was..people keeps on asking me to give them stuff blah blah......when i said no..they were like "in    ****-ro they gave us this and that.
i was like "this aint high rate"
     and they told me im unfair.....i think maintaining the balance will cost a lot and might cause haters as well. But if a server give everone their equal chance to hunt, quest,etc on their own.....i think we can also consider that as balance.....
      i think imbalance is when a person gets too much even without hardworks.   
      i really cant say that high rate or low rate is imbalance since they fall on different category.its the admins who can balance everything since they're the one's who implement's and make rules..and the player also plays the most imp part in maintaining the balance since they are the one who follows these rules and all of them are given equal chance, if not given equal chance then thats IMBA!!.....