It appears that some private servers are now asking for personal information. And I want to start a discussion to help players stay informed about some of the risk involved, so I will start by posing a few questions.
Should I give my personal information to a private server? If not, why?
Are private servers held accountable if they leak my personal information?
ive seen you in the other thread and you come across like a nut
pick a server that suits your sensibilities and call it a day. maybe one with no email and no password that lets you play from the public library (your unique ip is personal info that can be used to look up your house)
[Edit]
Your IP address will expose your country, city, and ISP.
You will be vulnerable to DDoS.
Your ISP may leak your customer information.
You can exposed your IP address by clicking on links through direct messaging, i.e. linking any account with an IP address.
Your private server may leak your IP address.
You can hide your IP address by using a VPN. And you can easily fake your email, username, and password.
In my opinion, private servers should only ask for username and password.
Quote from: Eiponpon on Feb 08, 2021, 08:03 PM
ive seen you in the other thread and you come across like a nut
+1 /no1
Quote from: Bue on Feb 08, 2021, 09:33 PM
Your IP address will expose your country, city, and ISP. And you can get doxxed if your ISP leaks your customer information. There are plenty of ways you can exposed your IP address, such as clicking on a link that was directly messaged to you. And private servers can collect your IP address when you visit their website or play the game. And if your private server is hacked, then they may get your IP address through logs.
Also, if you relied on the internet to do your job, then an attacker may pay a botnet to DDoS during work hours.
To protect yourself, you can hide your IP address by using a VPN. And you can easily fake your email, username, and password. In my opinion, private servers should only ask for username and password.
May, can, can, may, If, may, can, can.... that is a whole lot of uncertainties. Your IP address is pretty much everywhere if you use the internet at all without a trustworthy VPN.
Because we all know you saying "personal info" is referring to phone number i will be talking about that.
If for some reason you value your phone number more than playing a RO server that requires it, No you shouldn't give it out. But, If you follow safe online practices, then giving out a phone number should not be an issue for the majority of people. In fact id feel confident saying that the majority of online services nowadays ask for a phone number so a RO server should not scrutinized for doing the same.
Should a private server be accountable for leaking "personal information"? No. Ultimately if you gave them that info freely, you gave up all ability to hold them accountable. A RO server and a fortune-500 company are no different in that anything online is vulnerable and every organization has the possibility of having nefarious persons. Using service-specific email addresses, aliases and not reusing passwords is enough to keep yourself safe online in the majority of situations related to ragnarok online servers and websites.
Just use common sense, read all reviews and avoid anything that looks janky and you
should be fine. I obviously can't say for 100% certainty because everything in life comes with risks. How much you want to risk is up to you.
This is often asked by new players in SolaceRO. What I tell them is that they're free to enter fake details as long as they can remember them. It's only needed when players are requesting account-related assistance such as recovering an email address.
We follow certain standards to improve the security of our website and game servers. I believe the same practice is also being followed by servers with competent admins.
There was an instance in SEA where a server's database was hacked (to view the logs and expose the GMs' corruption) and the attacker later revealed that the players' details were not hashed.
I strongly advise that you stay away from shady servers. You can easily tell which is 'okay, this is fine' and 'stay away at all costs' by looking at their website.
Quote from: Neffletics on Feb 09, 2021, 09:30 AM
This is often asked by new players in SolaceRO. What I tell them is that they're free to enter fake details as long as they can remember them. It's only needed when players are requesting account-related assistance such as recovering an email address.
We follow certain standards to improve the security of our website and game servers. I believe the same practice is also being followed by servers with competent admins.
There was an instance in SEA where a server's database was hacked (to view the logs and expose the GMs' corruption) and the attacker later revealed that the players' details were not hashed.
I strongly advise that you stay away from shady servers. You can easily tell which is 'okay, this is fine' and 'stay away at all costs' by looking at their website.
Is that the one where someone posted a screenshot of user emails here on RMS? Or is that another incident?
Kinda hilarious how often it happens. I tend to think - would I give this info to a guy on the street? Would I be at risk if the owner decided to post my details for the world to see? Server owners are just random people, after all. Burner emails are the way to go, I pretty much have an email address I use solely to sacrifice for signing up to things and to eat up all the spam. Plus in this day and age I feel like people are more security conscious than ever.
I remember back in the day I had a proboards forum and as an administrator I could see everyone's emails and passwords. Man, can you imagine that now? Still, there is no guarantee that when you sign up for a server that the admin is storing your info securely. You have to just trust the dude on the other side, which is why I recommend everyone use a password manager.
Quote from: LavosRT on Feb 09, 2021, 09:16 AM
Because we all know you saying "personal info" is referring to phone number i will be talking about that.
Your real phone number will expose you to real life harassment through phone calling and text messaging.
Your mobile carrier may leak your customer information or SIM swap your phone number.
Your phone number may be linked to your personal information in a directory service.
Your private server may leak your phone number.
Your private server administrator can dox or harass you. Don't write a bad review.
Lavos, I would also want to point out for the sake of your benefit, that your cavalier attitudes towards your own information and willingness to absolve responsibilities for your potential leakers makes you very vulnerable. You are telegraphing to people that you are a leaker for your own information and you don't care who leaks your information.
Quote from: Neffletics on Feb 09, 2021, 09:30 AM
We follow certain standards to improve the security of our website and game servers. I believe the same practice is also being followed by servers with competent admins.
While this might sound reassuring for your players, this does not tell them how you are protecting their personal information. It is very vague to say: we follow certain standards, just trust us. 4Head
Also, can you be held accountable when your server / staff leaks your player's personal information?
I applaud you for trying to do a positive thing by trying to make the RO community more aware of potential threats involved with giving out personal information online.
I must say thought that your argument at this point is just a giant web of conspiracies that have such a low chance of ever happening that its not a sound explanation to why someone should not give this info to a private server and just serves the purpose of making you sound crazy.
https://www.addictioncenter.com/drugs/conspiracy-theory-addiction/ (https://www.addictioncenter.com/drugs/conspiracy-theory-addiction/)
Get help my dude.
Any internet troll can do what I am talking about.
spoilers: the game was rigged from the start in favor of corporations and the govt, they have your information and s*** anyways
this thread is stupid
Pathetic and paranoid.
Is this thread even serious? Seems like a troll thread especially after posting the exact same paranoid things in a previous thread.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 09, 2021, 03:06 PM
Your mobile carrier may leak your customer information or SIM swap your phone number.
Then your mobile carrier is trash. Get a better one that only believes you are who you say you are after seeing proof of identity, which is the standard at least in my country. If someone gets your sim, call your carrier, tell them they made a mistake, and have them switch it back? So unlikely to happen though I don't even know why I'm discussing this.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 09, 2021, 03:06 PM
Your phone number may be linked to your personal information in a directory service.
May be. May not. Most mobile numbers do not have this information linked to them like landline numbers do. If so though, then what? Absolute worst case scenario, someone finds out that you may have played on a ragnarok online server. Uh ohhhh. Simply say "must have been the previous owner of that number. I recently got mine". Like who would give a s***? Seriously.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 09, 2021, 03:06 PM
Your private server may leak your phone number.
May leak. Most likely won't. If so, then what? Absolute worst case scenario, someone finds out that you may have played on a ragnarok online server. Uh ohhhh.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 09, 2021, 03:06 PM
Your private server administrator can dox or harass you. Don't write a bad review.
Could? sure. Likely won't. ANYONE who finds out you have a phone number through various means, or follows you home can harass you. Harassment is still against the law though and is easily dealt with unless you're a big baby.
It's called blocking a number, or calling the police if the harassment becomes a crime. Being paranoid of someone "harassing" you just for having a phone number? Never heard of a prank caller?
Are you afraid of giving your phone number to a restaurant for a take out order? Don't leave them a bad review, or they might harass you, right?
Don't look at them funny when you pick up your food or you could get stalked in real life.
Where is your tinfoil hat to go with that paranoia?
I think you do need help, buddy. Or you're a big troll.
I'd bet on the latter.
One of those "I WAS ONLY PRETENDING TO BE STUPID! HAHA GOT EM" kinda guys.
You are naive if you think internet trolls are not a real threat.
For example, look at how the URL is hidden behind a link in this post (https://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-reviews/ragnarok-travels/msg200733/#msg200733). I could have gotten a list of IP addresses from the people that clicked on that link. Then I could have gotten your IP address by filtering that list using the country and province you have listed on your RMS profile.
In this article (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/the-serial-swatter.html), an internet troll use a Skype exploit to get the IP address of a streamer. And it was a Canadian ISP that leak the streamer's home address and a Canadian SWAT team that raided the streamer's home. The streamer tried to prove that it was a hoax by showing the text messages that the internet troll was sending as the raid was happening.
This doesn't just happen to popular streamers. An internet troll got an innocent person killed because he had an argument with someone in a CoD game. https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/14/us/swatting-sentence-casey-viner/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/14/us/swatting-sentence-casey-viner/index.html)
I started this thread to help players understand some of the risk involved with exposing their personal information. I have also heard of a case where a private server warlord was bullied into closing down his server because internet trolls found out his real name and address. It is an underhand practice that some private server warlords use when another private server warlord tried to poach their players. So private server warlords should also be careful.
You don't seem to understand what odds and chance are.
The odds of any of that happening to the average person are practically zero. You're pulling the rare cases you've seen from news stories, like a paranoid old boomer who watched too many rare murder cases on the news, and are believing these are common incidents that happen all the time.
They are not.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 10, 2021, 07:33 AM
I started this thread to help players understand some of the risk involved with exposing their personal information.
Well thank you, captain obvious, for telling us that life has bad people in it on rare occasions. If you're talking about exposing a phone number though, I wouldn't call that risky unless your phone carrier is unprofessional as hell and gives out customer information to any idiot without proof.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 10, 2021, 07:33 AM
You are naive if you think internet trolls are not a real threat.
No I'm just not paranoid. Internet trolls are some of the most harmless "threats" in existence, unless you're a big baby.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 10, 2021, 07:33 AM
For example, look at how the URL is hidden behind a link in this post (https://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-reviews/ragnarok-travels/msg200733/#msg200733). I could have gotten a list of IP addresses from the people that clicked on that link. Then I could have gotten your IP address by filtering that list using the country and province you have listed on your RMS profile.
Could have. Then what? You have my IP address... and? You're going to commit a crime with it? Get real.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 10, 2021, 07:33 AM
In this article (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/the-serial-swatter.html), an internet troll use a Skype exploit to get the IP address of a streamer. And it was a Canadian ISP that leak the streamer's home address and a Canadian SWAT team that raided the streamer's home. The streamer tried to prove that it was a hoax by showing the text messages that the internet troll was sending as the raid was happening.
Go to that link and read
Okay I did read it. "her address and apartment number, which he had filched from her Internet provider, Cox Communications, by pretending to be a company technician."
Now what are the odds of that ever happening to the average person? None I'd say, because the troll targeted a famous person to get some fame themselves, and also most internet providers aren't retarded like Cox Communications.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 10, 2021, 07:33 AM
This doesn't just happen to popular streamers. An internet troll got an innocent person killed because he had an argument with someone in a CoD game. https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/14/us/swatting-sentence-casey-viner/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/14/us/swatting-sentence-casey-viner/index.html)
"This doesn't just happen to popular streamers?" "This?" as in the above story? They're two different stories where one got the address from a stupid internet provider, and one gave the address willingly.
"During their argument, Viner threatened to swat the teammate – and the teammate responded by providing an address and saying, "Please try some s–t,"".
This second story is the
only legitimate threat to the average person you've posted so far, but only if you're dumb enough to provoke someone who was a violent/threatening person, literally telling them your address and invited them to try something. Even then, what are the odds of that person committing the crime with that information? Pracitcally none. What are the odds of a SWAT team killing you afterwards? Practically none.
Also, how does this relate to giving out a phone number to a private Ragnarok server administrator? Oh yeah it doesn't.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 10, 2021, 07:33 AM
I have also heard of a case where a private server warlord was bullied into closing down his server because internet trolls found out his real name and address. It is an underhand practice that some private server warlords use when another private server warlord tried to poach their players. So private server warlords should also be careful.
Okay. How does this apply to giving a private ragnarok server administrator your phone number? Oh yeah it doesn't.
You could die by crossing the street or getting in a vehicle. Better not ever do those things.
Jesus. Chill out.
Quote from: Tenuguu on Feb 09, 2021, 11:34 AM
Is that the one where someone posted a screenshot of user emails here on RMS? Or is that another incident?
Kinda hilarious how often it happens. I tend to think - would I give this info to a guy on the street? Would I be at risk if the owner decided to post my details for the world to see? Server owners are just random people, after all. Burner emails are the way to go, I pretty much have an email address I use solely to sacrifice for signing up to things and to eat up all the spam. Plus in this day and age I feel like people are more security conscious than ever.
I remember back in the day I had a proboards forum and as an administrator I could see everyone's emails and passwords. Man, can you imagine that now? Still, there is no guarantee that when you sign up for a server that the admin is storing your info securely. You have to just trust the dude on the other side, which is why I recommend everyone use a password manager.
There are 'modern' ways to protect the data we're collecting from players like encryption. Many years ago, most platforms are only saving data in plain text. Unfortunately, some servers are still doing it. More reasons for players should stay away from shady servers.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 09, 2021, 03:06 PM
While this might sound reassuring for your players, this does not tell them how you are protecting their personal information. It is very vague to say: we follow certain standards, just trust us. 4Head
Also, can you be held accountable when your server / staff leaks your player's personal information?
Idk how to answer your question or I'm just too lazy to write in long paragraphs. But I recommend that you use fake information when joining private servers. If the server is not allowing you to use fake information, then don't play there.
Quote from: distilled1 on Feb 10, 2021, 11:22 AM
You don't seem to understand what odds and chance are.
The odds of any of that happening to the average person are practically zero. You're pulling the rare cases you've seen from news stories, like a paranoid old boomer who watched too many rare murder cases on the news, and are believing these are common incidents that happen all the time.
Whatever the chances may be. The risk of exposing your personal information still exist. That is the point that I am trying to make.
You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to justified it, but exposing your real phone number will always put you at risk of real life harassment through phoning calling and text messaging.
It is not entirely out of question for a private server warlord to have malicious intent or purposefully leak this information to intimidate players. That is part of the risk and why I want to players to stay informed.
Distilled, you are being way too narrow-minded, and Bue, a tad too far in the opposite direction.
The concern shouldn't be about random individuals "trolling" you, but the bigger scale of things. Sure, it's very unlikely that someone is going to find your info and target **you** specifically just to minorly annoy you, or phone you or anything else silly like you're suggesting. But if your data becomes breached, you become a name in a long list of names that bots will have a field day with. The more info you give to services, whether it be your average joe starting an RO server or a random-donkey forum on the internet with no real accountability - all puts you in a more dangerous position. Each layer of information you provide to people puts you at another level at risk. Sure, someone with just your email can't really do anything. But if they get your email from one source, phone no from another, date of birth from another, password from another - well, now you're in a real s*** position. When this sort of information gets compromised it gets distributed on huge scales, and people with malicious intent use bots to cycle through all of the information to try and see what they can get out of it. Origins was recently victim to a "hack" where user details leaked from non-oRO sources were used to steal game accounts. You can only hope that the "hacker" only bothered to steal items in a video game, and not get into peoples' emails or bank accounts. Yes, any service can be subject to breaches, but let's be real - million dollar companies that are severely accountable for data management are on a whole other level than a guy hosting a video game pserv. While it is also less likely that services like this will get hacked, it still happens, as does malicious admin / disgruntled GM leaks.
Neffletics has the best take in the whole thread. The user should always retain the right to submit fake information. Being mindful and cautious is something everyone should be a little bit more of.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 10, 2021, 12:14 PM
Whatever the chances may be. The risk of exposing your personal information still exist. That is the point that I am trying to make.
You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to justified it, but exposing your real phone number will always put you at risk of real life harassment through phoning calling and text messaging.
"
Whatever the chance may be"? Even if it's 0.000001%?
Whatever the chance, you say?
You're the one doing the mental gymnastics in attempt to worry people from playing on Ragnarok Travels. We all know why you made this thread, because you're repeating the same things you were just saying the other day in the Ragnarok Travels thread.
The point you're trying to make is dumb, obvious, and not even worth mentioning unless this thread is directed at 8 year olds or something. Then okay, I guess thanks for informing the young and extremely naive, except you didn't make this thread for that. It's obvious why you made this thread, constantly mentioning "warlords", as in "Warlord J", the admin of Ragnarok Travels.
You're a straight up troll, trying to project your paranoia on others for whatever reason.
Maybe you have a grudge against Ragnarok Travels for being banned, being unable to play due to not having a phone, or whatever else, but only an idiot would believe that you made this thread out of the kindness of your heart. You're so full of chowder, you should have a bread bowl for a beard!
You're more likely to get poisoned eating food than any of those things happening. Are you going to stop eating food? Hopefully not.
You're more likely to get killed in a car crash, or on a bicycle than any of those things happening. Are you going to walk everywhere for the rest of your life? I doubt it.
This is not some conspiracy against your server. You are being paranoid.
Everyone is in agreement that you shouldn't give private servers your personal information.
You are the one doing mental gymnastics to downplay the risk of having your personal information leaked.
I have also ran private servers and other services since high school. I know what kind of power I have over someone if they gave me their personal information, especially their phone number.
What if I leak your personal information to internet trolls? I don't have to take any risk. Do you think I would be responsible if I leak your information? Can you proved I leak your information? And what if the internet trolls actually harass you? There is always drama on private servers, you think people won't have the incentive to do it?
Quote from: Bue on Feb 08, 2021, 06:47 PM
It appears that some private servers are now asking for personal information. And I want to start a discussion to help players stay informed about some of the risk involved, so I will start by posing a few questions.
Should I give my personal information to a private server? If not, why?
Are private servers held accountable if they leak my personal information?
maybe try playing on official servers if you dont like how accessible your information is to COMMON people
pardon my phrasing
Quote from: Bue on Feb 11, 2021, 04:45 AM
Everyone is in agreement that you shouldn't give private servers your personal information.
no we're not. most people here think you sound nutty
Id give to a private server over a soulless megacorp any day. and the info is hardly "personal". rms has your info btw. better delete your account
Quote from: Eiponpon on Feb 11, 2021, 03:12 PM
no we're not. most people that play TravelsRo and defend themself here think you sound nutty
uhm, i fixed your typing.
no offense, but while reading this thread, that came into my mind x)
i can totally understand Bues concerns. and they are kinda valid. but also applys to alot of other stuff aswell outside RO.
We all agree to this kind of stuff 1000 times in our lifes.
but there is no right or wrong here.
some ppls feel good to give out personal datas to a random company.
some doesnt.
some ppls feel good to give out peronal datas to a random guy setting up a RO server.
some doesnt.
its a personal choice of handling your own data.
u guys are taking it much to personally it seems.
bottom line is:
ITS A RNG GAME- like a card drop!
very small chance - maybe 0,01 ( /heh) of something "bad" happening with ur data.
j/k
everyone is free to take the very small risk in favor of a smaller chance of having multiclient abusers.
i guess i whould not care aswell, and do this phone number thing, but i whould just use a prepaid throwaway number.
Some people never had their accounts hacked.
Some people never had their personal information leaked.
And some people never caught the attention of internet trolls.
So I can understand why some people think that this could never happen to them.
However, the people that make the chance argument are suffering from cognitive dissonance.
They understand the risk, but they are desperately telling themselves that it could never happen to them.
If you been around the private server community for as long as I have, then you would never trust a private server warlord with your personal information. I have been in some of these development communities and they are usually a combination of immature, incompetent, or malicious.
There is also a long history of accusations made against private server warlords and their henchmens right here on RMS. And they always get away with it. It is funny how quickly we all forget.
In my opinion, private servers should never ask for more than your username and password and other information that can easily be faked. There is no need to expose yourself to risk.
QuoteIf you been around the private server community for as long as I have, then you would never trust a private server warlord with your personal information.
No offense, but being around for a long period of time does not necessarily mean that you are an expert in this field.
Anyway, at topic: I would never give any private ragnarok server my phone number. Not because I'd be afraid of them calling me but simply because I think this is way more information than a server should collect in the first place. Usernames, fine, passwords, fine, email address, fine (you can just register a disposable one, easy), birthdate, fine to a certain extend (if ppl can fake it, who cares). However, I see no need to drop them my address, phone number, shoe size or whatever elese. Why is that needed for their service? To prevent ppl from multi clienting? WHat stops me to ask my sister, mom, friend, whoever to "lend" me thier number so I can sign up ten time son the server? Or maybe I simply own more than one number. I used to have four numbers at some point because of work, etc. which I could have easily used to sign up multiple times.
Long store short, let's not be paranoid about leaked information. The moment you step on the internet you are at risk of getting hacked, leaked, exposed, ddosed, impersonated, harrased, etc. Don't like that? Sstay offline. Otherwise dela with it accordingly. Don't hand over your private informaiton to every retard on the internet. It's that simple.
Speaking of giving personal information over to RO servers, I was reminded me of a little anecdote. I remember as a kid getting banned or having my account locked on iRO and for some insane reason I had to send them a scan of my passport before they would unlock my account.
Still don't know why they wanted it. Or why I did it - I was only a kid and I remember having to beg my mum to do it, because she was quite rightly "why the f*** does a game want your passport.", but lo and behold after I did it I got my account back.
Thinking back that was incredibly stupid and careless and my thirteen year old face is probably in an archive somewhere from one of Gravity's many hacks. I want to say "thank god that doesn't happen these days" but YouTube it seems are doing something similar, blocking you from watching "age restricted" videos until you verify your YouTube account with a copy of your ID. I was really appalled that they were doing that.
But yeah. Don't be paranoid, but stay smart. Never give anything that you don't *need* to in this information age.
Quote from: Boreas on Feb 12, 2021, 07:54 AM
No offense, but being around for a long period of time does not necessarily mean that you are an expert in this field.
I have been playing on private servers since 2006 when servers were listed on voting websites.
And I have been posting on RMS since 2009 when I started experimenting with private servers.
I agree with this sentiment completely, but everything I have written so far is based off of my own experience with private servers and other activities.
Quote from: Boreas on Feb 12, 2021, 07:54 AM
Long store short, let's not be paranoid about leaked information. The moment you step on the internet you are at risk of getting hacked, leaked, exposed, ddosed, impersonated, harrased, etc. Don't like that? Sstay offline. Otherwise dela with it accordingly. Don't hand over your private informaiton to every retard on the internet. It's that simple.
I agree, but specifically, don't give your personal information to private servers.
They don't care about protecting your personal information and are not accountable for leaking your personal information.
And don't be stupid and give your phone number to private servers, especially if you rely on your phone.
Stay safe everyone.
kro requires a social security number. and big corp is even worse with your data because they have incentive to sell it. there is nothing wrong using your phone number for verification if the pserver is doing it to provide a better experience for the players. personally im glad that servers who care enough to do more than the bare min exist. means there is still hope
Quote from: Bue on Feb 08, 2021, 06:47 PM
Should I give my personal information to a private server?
No.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 08, 2021, 06:47 PM
If not, why?
Risk of hacks or of leaks.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 08, 2021, 06:47 PM
Are private servers held accountable if they leak my personal information?
I STRONGLY suspect it'd depend on the jurisdiction the server's in, and on any specific terms you agree to.
More than just accountability, the question is whether or not the private server administration can even reimburse you in the first place.
Most probably not; while not literal men of straw I don't expect most to have real lawsuit-deep types of pockets.
no you shouldn't, even if some people in this forum will say it's paranoid. It's just common sense.
Ragnarok Online Servers come and go all the time - most of the time there is also 1-2 people behind, who don't really care about data privacy or law at all.
I'll even don't like giving a mail adress out, because they can spam me then and i hate changing mail adresses - so i often use temporary Mail-Adresses if I create an account on those sites.
Phone Number? Never. Ever. You never know what those guy(s) are up to.
Just imagine: you'll join on a small RO server - the Admin wants your phone number for "security" reasons
You quarrel with the Admin - you get banned/leave - and the admin still has all your phone number and can harass you however he wants.
And why would they even need it? Donations work regardless, so they dont need it for cash-grabbing, which often is the number1 of reasons to open a server
"no you shouldnt, its just common sense" says man who gives number to every app on his phone, all of them purely financially motivated and willing to sell his info
most servers do not verify accounts at all, coincidentally most servers are full of cheaters. kRO is right on this and so is any server that cares enough to do more than the bare min
Quote from: Eiponpon on Feb 18, 2021, 01:26 AM
"no you shouldnt, its just common sense" says man who gives number to every app on his phone, all of them purely financially motivated and willing to sell his info
most servers do not verify accounts at all, coincidentally most servers are full of cheaters. kRO is right on this and so is any server that cares enough to do more than the bare min
Most apps never verifies with SMS anymore. They most likely ask for an email to associate a unique ID of your phone. Not your actual number.
Here's what you don't understand about giving your personal info however small it might be, can greatly risk a danger for your personal life.
When a big mega evil corp such as kRO that you constantly keep describing leaks your data they can be caught accordingly and be sued harshly as there's always a log or a security breach that shows which registered user do what and when they did it. When a company does it, it is logged. Meaning that should you catch them doing this, then you have the advantage of disrupting their work ethics. Those employees can be jailed, or be permanently fired while also being filed in their records for breaking the law. And not only that, but the traffic sellers do not gain any privatized information. A number for them only means potential
scam sales increase. That's why the
scam salesman wants you and only you to give out information in good faith. That's to argument that they never fished out any details from you.
In Korea you can gain exorbitant punishment for even leaking the slightest of personalized data whether it comes from a legal development team or a private citizen. While worldwide isn't so harsh on these laws, it should give you an example of how much of a difference it makes when these people gets caught.
When an
unregistered company, whether they take money or not does this, it is
not logged. They are not registered in the system. They use heavy security measures to ensure to avoid being caught. It is extremely hard to prove that they stole from you, and it becomes especially dangerous if those that holds your personal data happen to have -funny- ideas such as finding your home address to send a SWAT team to you as a "prank". And yes, this is a thing now with Indian scammers whom disguises themselves as authorized in-house firms trying to trick you into downloading/running executables to downright gaining remote access to your computer without you even knowing about it. Purposely calling the police to victims if their threats of blackmails to get money do not work. People have died over these "pranks". And that's from fully trusting those individualists that claims total privacy for not being a part of the
big evil corporation elitists. If private server owners wanted to they could do equally if not even bigger damage as they're under the radar.
That's the problem. So far this hasn't happened. I sincerely hope this will never happen or be expanded upon.
I want to preface that I am not saying or believing that your server does this. But you've got to understand why some people do not want to give their information out and why these constant hit and miss comments makes people all the more skeptical of you.
If you don't care about these things that's fine. You can do whatever if that's what you want. It's your choice. There's always a
small risk when doing something. I personally don't think you should live in fear of something always happening or think of immediate worst case scenario. I do not think giving away emails leads to much if you're careful. If your instincts do tell you anything feels off, don't do it. It is in their full right to choose not to out of concern. Just as it is your right to share the information if desired.
Quote from: Eiponpon on Feb 18, 2021, 01:26 AM
"no you shouldnt, its just common sense" says man who gives number to every app on his phone, all of them purely financially motivated and willing to sell his info
most servers do not verify accounts at all, coincidentally most servers are full of cheaters. kRO is right on this and so is any server that cares enough to do more than the bare min
can you clarify what you want to say? your post is just nonsense.
do you want to tell me that I give my phone number around everywhere, even after i posted that i don't ?
or do you want to tell me that cheaters on RO servers are depending on the phone number?
What I'm about to say regards only giving your mobile phone number to a private server owner, and maybe your email address, but no other personal information such as real name or address.
Note that mobile numbers can not be looked up on a directory for their corresponding address like landline numbers can.
The only legitimate arguments against this is that the server owner could potentially use your mobile number to harass you via texts or calls, or worse case scenario, they find out your real name and call the phone company linked to your phone number, and to pretend to be you.
In the last case, the phone company needs proof that you are who you say you are before divulging any sensitive information, and before making any changes to your account.
In the first case, yes you could potentially get "harassment" via texts or calls, but you could also have the same thing happen from a prank caller or from a scamming company simply choosing your existing number at random. Both have about equal chances of happening, and both are easily dealt with via hanging up the phone, and blocking a number.
Unless you're an enormous coward who can't handle potentially needing to hang up your phone on someone attempting to "harass" you, I seriously do not see a problem with giving your mobile number to a private server owner.
What other, actual legitimate concern is there? Honestly. I haven't heard a legitimately realistic concern against this yet.
You must have a very crappy and insecure phone company if you actually fear someone being able to gain leaked account information from them so easily.
If you fear your phone company doing this so much, change your phone company to one that is more secure, then you don't have to be so afraid of giving your number to places.
If the extremely unthinkable happens, and some server owner ends up hating you so much that they go through all this trouble, and miraculously get your real life info from your insecure phone company, and unthinkably decide to perform a crime on you in real life, then that's a matter for the police just like anyone crazy enough to stalk you in real life, following you home, etc.
If you actually fear this reality happening though? I don't know what to say to you. You are freaking paranoid. Sorry but it's true.
You might as well fear every stranger you see as a potential threat against your life because they could spy on you, follow you, murder you, etc.
That's a sad life to live.
Quote from: distilled1 on Feb 18, 2021, 01:46 PM
What other, actual legitimate concern is there? Honestly. I haven't heard a legitimately realistic concern against this yet.
actually, i don't know
any valid reason for a server owner to get my phone number.
What will the owner do with the phone number?
Sending Spam? Marketing? Yes, a very good reason not to give it.
Talking to me? He can do this within the game. That's exactly what he should do, because i don't care about him anywhere else.
He doesn't want to do anything with it? ok, then WHY would he even want it in the first place?
And don't give me that security s*** for a private unimportant Ro server. For Accounts, there is username and password - and mail adress. what else do they need?
Not even Final fantasy14 or other MMOS want my phone number, and they would have more valid reason to do so.
If you make a server and still want more security, you have so many alternatives - you don't have to collect personal private data.
Heck, even a 2nd password would be more sensible than that.
So you can call me coward all you like, but I don't give strangers my phone number. period.
And i'm not afraid of strangers, i just want to avoid the hassle of getting a new phone number if someone wants to be a d*ck.
PS: If a Server owner or Mod wants private data from me like a phone number, and tells me I shouldn't be careful with my data and calls someone coward that's a REAL RED FLAG.
Then they don't even know about data privacy, one of the MOST IMPORTANT TOPICS on the Internet for already quite some time.
Quote from: yennar on Feb 18, 2021, 02:31 PM
PS: If a Server owner or Mod wants private data from me like a phone number, and tells me I shouldn't be careful with my data and calls someone coward that's a REAL RED FLAG.
Then they don't even know about data privacy, one of the MOST IMPORTANT TOPICS on the Internet for already quite some time.
Are you implying that I'm a server owner asking for phone numbers? Or just saying that in general. I'm not a server owner, and I also would never tell people they shouldn't be careful with their data.
Quote from: yennar on Feb 18, 2021, 02:31 PM
Spoiler
actually, i don't know any valid reason for a server owner to get my phone number.
What will the owner do with the phone number?
Sending Spam? Marketing? Yes, a very good reason not to give it.
Talking to me? He can do this within the game. That's exactly what he should do, because i don't care about him anywhere else.
He doesn't want to do anything with it? ok, then WHY would he even want it in the first place?
And don't give me that security s*** for a private unimportant Ro server. For Accounts, there is username and password - and mail adress. what else do they need?
Not even Final fantasy14 or other MMOS want my phone number, and they would have more valid reason to do so.
If you make a server and still want more security, you have so many alternatives - you don't have to collect personal private data.
Heck, even a 2nd password would be more sensible than that.
So you can call me coward all you like, but I don't give strangers my phone number. period.
And i'm not afraid of strangers, i just want to avoid the hassle of getting a new phone number if someone wants to be a d*ck.
That's a lot of text just to say "You shouldn't give your phone number to a server owner for no good reason", which I agree with.
But some servers actually have a good reason, for example, what I've already explained in other threads regarding the Ragnarok Travels server and their verifying of player accounts via a confirmation text message to player's mobile phones. I shouldn't have to repeat myself here, but it's an extra measure taken in order to prevent players from making many different accounts using VPNs and multiple devices/virtual machines, and then multi-clienting.
This is an extra measure that, for a lot of people including myself, is appreciated, as it gives them better peace of mind knowing that the game they are playing has more defence against multi-clienters, and allows for a more even playing field.
If you personally don't care for that reason, and don't think it's a good enough reason to justify giving the server owner your mobile phone number so you can register your account, then that's fine. Simply do not play on that server, but you're a straight up liar if you say no one sees that reason as a good one, or a justifiable one. Many people enjoy and benefit from this.
You're also paranoid if you believe doing so will endanger your life.
I agree you could
potentially get "harassed" or "spammed by marketing" or whatever, but that's a very very unlikely scenario that is easily dealt with by blocking a number or two, and being fearful of that happening is almost equally as paranoid as believing it will lead to endangering your life.
Quote from: distilled1 on Feb 18, 2021, 03:46 PM
If you personally don't care for that reason, and don't think it's a good enough reason to justify giving the server owner your mobile phone number so you can register your account, then that's fine. Simply do not play on that server, but you're a straight up liar if you say no one sees that reason as a good one, or a justifiable one. Many people enjoy and benefit from this.
You're also paranoid if you believe doing so will endanger your life.
I agree you could potentially get "harassed" or "spammed by marketing" or whatever, but that's a very very unlikely scenario that is easily dealt with by blocking a number or two, and being fearful of that happening is almost equally as paranoid as believing it will lead to endangering your life.
Unfortunately i don't think you're getting through their thick skulls, the reason this thread got started and the reason my review was flamed is because a few people are trying to keep other from playing Ragnarok Travels. What other reason do they have to make something like this? I do not genuinely believe for one pico-second that anyone is honestly trying to be the "savior" of the RO community and save everyone from leaking personal info and doing so out of the kindness of their heart. This post, the post i shot down on reddit and the backlash i received on my review is just a giant smear campaign against Ragnarok Travels by a few people who think servers are like political parties to get behind... No matter what good evidence you provide to contest their arguments, someone from the campaign will pull another stupid outlandish reason out of their donkey to keep this thread going.
Like the admin who locked my review thread said "User who value their privacy may choose what information they share with any online services they sign up for. Let's just leave it at that."
Quote from: distilled1 on Feb 18, 2021, 03:46 PM
If you personally don't care for that reason, and don't think it's a good enough reason to justify giving the server owner your mobile phone number so you can register your account, then that's fine. Simply do not play on that server, but you're a straight up liar if you say no one sees that reason as a good one, or a justifiable one. Many people enjoy and benefit from this.
You're also paranoid if you believe doing so will endanger your life.
I agree you could potentially get "harassed" or "spammed by marketing" or whatever, but that's a very very unlikely scenario that is easily dealt with by blocking a number or two, and being fearful of that happening is almost equally as paranoid as believing it will lead to endangering your life.
I read the other thread now - I didn't know there was another discussion about this topic.
The description of the system itself sounds like a creative solution for multi clienting, but not without issues.
At the moment I have 3 different phones (due to my work), so the solution alone would not work with me - which means the Server is still depending on reporting/manual watching from other players or mods.
I won't say that I like the solution but i can see the added-value of the server.
I also understand the heated discussions here now a bit better - people already flamed themselves on the other thread.
Quote from: LavosRT on Feb 19, 2021, 07:56 AM
Unfortunately i don't think you're getting through their thick skulls, the reason this thread got started and the reason my review was flamed is because a few people are trying to keep other from playing Ragnarok Travels. What other reason do they have to make something like this? I do not genuinely believe for one pico-second that anyone is honestly trying to be the "savior" of the RO community and save everyone from leaking personal info and doing so out of the kindness of their heart. This post, the post i shot down on reddit and the backlash i received on my review is just a giant smear campaign against Ragnarok Travels by a few people who think servers are like political parties to get behind... No matter what good evidence you provide to contest their arguments, someone from the campaign will pull another stupid outlandish reason out of their donkey to keep this thread going.
Like the admin who locked my review thread said "User who value their privacy may choose what information they share with any online services they sign up for. Let's just leave it at that."
It's funny, because i didn't even know ragnarok travels before this discussion.
What other reason would I have to tell people to be careful about private data? There are many.
I'm someone who was trained to exercise the GDPR while at work, so i may be a bit more sensible about this topic.
This may also be the reason that I can see why Data Privacy is such a huge topic - and many people that doesn't live in a democratic country with free-speech and human rights knows the actual worth of this.
You talk about "political parties", about an agenda.
Inversion of the argument: your first post with your account was a review how your server is the best one, and how good it is - isn't that exactly that? Just an agenda to push the server you're playing on? Why else create an account here?
I don't even care about it - I started here on this forum too like that years ago. It's fine, it's legitim, but it's also legitim to critize a server for things it does.
But even if there are "political parties" against you, to use that as that an automatic disqualification for every argument that goes against your own agenda seems cheap to me.
Neverthless - the admin himself should already know that he won't reach everyone with his server. If it's acceptable for him, that's fine then? A good Ro server chooses it's own niche, it doesn't need to reach all.
PS: I looked up the TravelRo site now - When i click on "Register", there is nothing to put in your mobile phone number, also the Terms of Service aren't mentioning phone numbers at all (?) when do you even put in your phone number?
Quote from: yennar on Feb 19, 2021, 09:41 AM
You talk about "political parties", about an agenda.
Inversion of the argument: your first post with your account was a review how your server is the best one, and how good it is - isn't that exactly that? Just an agenda to push the server you're playing on? Why else create an account here?
I don't even care about it - I started here on this forum too like that years ago. It's fine, it's legitim, but it's also legitim to critize a server for things it does.
But even if there are "political parties" against you, to use that as that an automatic disqualification for every argument that goes against your own agenda seems cheap to me.
Neverthless - the admin himself should already know that he won't reach everyone with his server. If it's acceptable for him, that's fine then? A good Ro server chooses it's own niche, it doesn't need to reach all.
I'm sorry if you took my comment the wrong way as you kind of joined this whole discussion late in the game and tbh I haven't been keeping up to date with it so forgive my ignorance, I am sure you had perfectly valid things to say. I was more referring to OP and his intention for starting this topic.
My review was intended to just be an honest review of the server. i pointed out its up and downsides, arguments for and against it in an attempt to have others make the decision for themselves if they want to join it or not. Saying things like "is the best" is a bold statement and yes, you can absolutely say i was pushing an agenda by doing so. I also agree to some extent that yes i could also be ignorant to the opposite side of the argument because of unavoidable bias. but I in no way disqualified every argument against the server and its "features", its just all of the arguments being put forward were all very unlikely scenarios and conspiracies like "your mobile carrier is going to rat you out and sell your data" that bring nothing to the unique context of a private RO server and are just general online privacy concerns that should be up to everyone to decide for themselves.
The review thread was locked, and this thread took over the "discussion". At the same time multiple posts on reddit appeared by some of the same people claiming the server had bugs with its firewall mechanics that were false and disproven (the OP choked on his own words and got banned, it was glorious). So it makes it all seem like the intention behind this thread and others is a spreading misinformation and making travels seem nefarious for its way of handling anti-cheat because it just so happens that another 1x server opened right before i made my review that some of the players making the initial arguments against my review all flocked to, giving them a reason to try and make it look as bad as possible in hopes more people flock there with them.
Now maybe you understand why i refer to politics a bit better. Negative attack ads are toxic, but effective and this thread is just one in disguise my friend. OP is far from being the "people's hero" he 's trying to be by spreading awareness to online privacy concerns.
this thread was definitely made with a very obvious ulterior motive. 2FA is not some radical idea. even ppl who live in caves have heard of it.
Quote from: yennar on Feb 18, 2021, 02:31 PM
actually, i don't know any valid reason for a server owner to get my phone number.
Quote from: yennar on Feb 18, 2021, 02:31 PM
And don't give me that security s*** for a private unimportant Ro server.
huh, so you do know one. interesting
Quote from: LavosRT on Feb 19, 2021, 07:56 AM
Unfortunately i don't think you're getting through their thick skulls, the reason this thread got started and the reason my review was flamed is because a few people are trying to keep other from playing Ragnarok Travels. What other reason do they have to make something like this? I do not genuinely believe for one pico-second that anyone is honestly trying to be the "savior" of the RO community and save everyone from leaking personal info and doing so out of the kindness of their heart. This post, the post i shot down on reddit and the backlash i received on my review is just a giant smear campaign against Ragnarok Travels by a few people who think servers are like political parties to get behind... No matter what good evidence you provide to contest their arguments, someone from the campaign will pull another stupid outlandish reason out of their donkey to keep this thread going.
Like the admin who locked my review thread said "User who value their privacy may choose what information they share with any online services they sign up for. Let's just leave it at that."
I didn't bring up your server in this thread because it isn't the only server that is asking for personal information.
And we have gone over all the reasons why you shouldn't trust private servers with your personal information.
This is not about your server and I have no reason to go after your server.
If anyone is making your server look bad, then its you.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 20, 2021, 10:43 AM
I didn't bring up your server in this thread because it isn't the only server that is asking for personal information.
And we have gone over all the reasons why you shouldn't trust private servers with your personal information.
This is not about your server and I have no reason to go after your server.
If anyone is making your server look bad, then its you.
You absolutely have a undeniable motive to try and ruin Ragnarok Travels and you have tried to do so time and time again. The fact this thread and the reddit posts all popped up the second my review was locked is because you weren't finished with your childish temper tantrum after Lord J banned you from the discord. Don't play innocent, anyone with at least half a brain cell can see through your façade and discern your true intentions.
Quote from: LavosRT on Feb 21, 2021, 10:35 AM
You absolutely have a undeniable motive to try and ruin Ragnarok Travels and you have tried to do so time and time again. The fact this thread and the reddit posts all popped up the second my review was locked is because you weren't finished with your childish temper tantrum after Lord J banned you from the discord. Don't play innocent, anyone with at least half a brain cell can see through your façade and discern your true intentions.
No offense, and I don't even know the server you are talking about, but you are the only one who keeps bringing up that server in this thread. :/
If I wanted to take down Ragnarok Travel, then it would have already been gone.
You must be new here if you think a thread on RMS is going to ruin your server.
And you are getting so caught up in your drama that you are confusing me for someone else.
I don't know who is manipulating you and what is making you so zealous, but you need to start thinking for yourself.
It is clear you understand the importance of data privacy, but that contradicts your server's policy of requiring players to verify themselves with their phone number. And the only way for you to resolve this contradiction is by accusing me of attacking your server because you can't make the argument against data privacy.
That is not the way.
Quote from: Boreas on Feb 21, 2021, 02:43 PM
No offense, and I don't even know the server you are talking about, but you are the only one who keeps bringing up that server in this thread. :/
https://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-reviews/ragnarok-travels/ (https://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-reviews/ragnarok-travels/)
https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lhwu72/dont_play_travels_ro_the_owner_and_only_admin_of/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lhwu72/dont_play_travels_ro_the_owner_and_only_admin_of/)
https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lihfn9/travels_ro_firewall_bug_explained_again/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lihfn9/travels_ro_firewall_bug_explained_again/)
Here is the backstory for you. TL;DR: guy got banned from travels for being an idiot in discord, threw a hissy fit, decided to try and burn the server and these posts/threads including this one is the result.
Yes i understand some of you might have no clue what TravelsRO is, because this post doesn't seem like its directed at any specific server and a is general question/discussion but i assure you OP had very decisive intentions when he made it.
Quote from: Bue on Feb 21, 2021, 02:58 PM
If I wanted to take down Ragnarok Travel, then it would have already been gone.
You must be new here if you think a thread on RMS is going to ruin your server.
And you are getting so caught up in your drama that you are confusing me for someone else.
I don't know who is manipulating you and what is making you so zealous, but you need to start thinking for yourself.
It is clear you understand the importance of data privacy, but that contradicts your server's policy of requiring players to verify themselves with their phone number. And the only way for you to resolve this contradiction is by accusing me of attacking your server because you can't make the argument against data privacy.
That is not the way.
"If I wanted to take down Ragnarok Travel, then it would have already been gone."
-Wow its almost like someone is showing their true intention finally.
But, just continue to play innocent /heh
This is your drama, not mine and until you stop i won't either.
I work as a System Admin for a big insurance company. I work closely from time to time with the Cyber Security Department, depending on the situation. I took a Cyber Security course, and right now I'm studying for CISSP in order to change my career path. Never give out your private information online if you can help it. This is especially true for small companies and websites. You don't know how they store the information, and even if they do maintain high standards (and trust me, they don't) - nothing is out of reach. Nothing. /ok
Quote from: LavosRT on Feb 22, 2021, 08:32 AM
https://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-reviews/ragnarok-travels/ (https://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-reviews/ragnarok-travels/)
https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lhwu72/dont_play_travels_ro_the_owner_and_only_admin_of/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lhwu72/dont_play_travels_ro_the_owner_and_only_admin_of/)
https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lihfn9/travels_ro_firewall_bug_explained_again/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/lihfn9/travels_ro_firewall_bug_explained_again/)
Here is the backstory for you. TL;DR: guy got banned from travels for being an idiot in discord, threw a hissy fit, decided to try and burn the server and these posts/threads including this one is the result.
Yes i understand some of you might have no clue what TravelsRO is, because this post doesn't seem like its directed at any specific server and a is general question/discussion but i assure you OP had very decisive intentions when he made it.
"If I wanted to take down Ragnarok Travel, then it would have already been gone."
-Wow its almost like someone is showing their true intention finally.
But, just continue to play innocent /heh
This is your drama, not mine and until you stop i won't either.
I would never verify my phone number with a private server or give any of my personal information to a private server. And there plenty of other people that have shared my concerns about data privacy and how our personal information can be use by internet trolls to harass us in real life or by hackers to compromise our accounts in other services.
So then, why would I argue about firewall mechanics on your server/discord/reddit when I have never even played on your server because it requires phone number verification?
Quote from: Kamik on Feb 22, 2021, 03:59 PM
I work as a System Admin for a big insurance company. I work closely from time to time with the Cyber Security Department, depending on the situation. I took a Cyber Security course, and right now I'm studying for CISSP in order to change my career path. Never give out your private information online if you can help it. This is especially true for small companies and websites. You don't know how they store the information, and even if they do maintain high standards (and trust me, they don't) - nothing is out of reach. Nothing. /ok
I used to write software tools for digital forensic investigators at my previous company. CISSP is legit. I have done a lot of email support and people with CISSP in their email signature tend to be easy to work with. I am glad someone else in the field can vouch for me on this. It is even worse for private servers since they are usually run by people that have no idea what they are doing.