Reinventing Ragnarok - by a Game Designer

Started by ShadowLight, Aug 17, 2015, 12:19 AM

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vashgibz13

This guy voiced out my idea.

Mark my words I will make a better private server focusing on the problems stressed below

Well there is few flaw in original game design...

Flaws appear when news and updates keep pile up ...


RO original game design was simple but magnificient

Thief = Dodge , hard to hit
Swordman  = Hit hard, Tank
Mage = Easy to kill, Impossible to avoid
Archer = Long range, Run away
Acolyte = Can't be killed, Can't kill

The problem was : Acolty player couldn't level up alone .. so game content made sure, players couldn't play alone in higher level dungeon.
Because thief was abble to dodge unlimited monster, they were the perfect tank

So team was easy as a duo
thief+mage/archer
swordman+acolyte
mage+acolye

2 factors ruined the game ... when 2nd class appear
POTS and flee/def reduction. Because of those , most players could solo level and ended up the MMORPG concept.

When they added 2-2 class, they added new negatives factors
1 hit kill and bypass flee/def. Because of those, build like pure agi was nearly impossible for hunter/assassin, but also it make monk and crusader tremendously strong ( build like pure DEX/INT crusa was OVER killing everyone without a chance )

When 1 build can kill 99.99% of any others build, it kill the concept of variance that was so magnificient in Ragnarok.

They added again advanced class , buffed Assassin with also a 1 HIT KILL, pretty much all class went buffed with a 1 HIT KILL, killing the concept of build and render the game a course of balanced VIT+1 HIT KILL.


You should go back to the basis
no reduction of flee/def, no skill to bypass def or flee, no pot without skill recovery, no delay between respawn, less useless map and more monsters per map.

ShadowLight

#16
Yeah, potions in RO always made me cringe. This is one of my biggest challenge due to many reasons but mainly because players would go  /omg if something is drastically changed. This means that I would need a design a way to teach the players on the new potion mechanics (if I actually have one that is).

Talking about teaching, I'm quite disappointed with the game tutorial. I mean, do they really expect players to read those long text? They kept on adding new end-content but ignore updating the old ones. It felt as if they gave up on getting new players (well maybe they did). It would be my dream to remake the tutorial to make it more engaging than it is so that players would be able to learn better. But again, this takes too much time and effort for one man to do. What do you guys think about the training ground/tutorial (or did I miss any new updates on this)?

I, too, dislike the concept of 1-hit kills (not just in RO). PvP combat would feel like "who-can-hit-first while spamming potions" rather than using your strategy and skills. This is the reason why my main focus is to improve skills that were least used or considered "weak" and introduce a few more ways to play a class. All of this is done with minimal "nerfing" on skills that is considered too strong, so that players would still be able to play the old way if they prefer.

annaquin

#17
Changing potting in RO can't be done without balancing the "weak" class against the 1hit kill...

In very competitive area, ygg is the only way to retaliate from a 99.99% HP drop. The concept of Ranger -> you need to LOCK your opponent on a trap -> ankle Snare ->Arrow Shower-> Lex Scroll -> Aimed Bolt ( 1 hit kill ) is correct design

Some skill shouldn't even exist :
"Pinpoint LVL 3,4"
Pinpoint will break unprotected shield -> ( 30% dmg reduction gone ) .. technically it reduce the total list of shield available to only 1 "sacred mission[1]". For any others classes, having a shield is simply useless ( you either protect against break and don't reduce dmg, or reduc dmg and let it breakable ). No CHOICE = BAD DESIGN

"Dragon Combo, Fallen Empire, Gate Hell"
11% stun .. why adding this effect , where fallen empire will grant 2.5s LOCK status right behind , making the whole string a door for GateHell.
DG,FE,Ygg + GoH make all other build ridiculously useless and make no other choice for others to build a character ( you need to maximize your VIT in order to survive a full maxed GoH everytime ). No CHOICE = BAD DESIGN

"Oblivion Curse". The RETARD above all. The game is all based on skill but all of sudden, a simple PRESSURE+OC render all the game useless. And again all players MUST HAVE a Shura/Arcbishop/GX nearby. No CHOICE = BAD DESIGN

Edit :
I think potting should be allowed but from Alchemist only.

ONE HUGE FLAW in Ragnarok is the total unfair game content offer to assist.
Healing, Buff, Recover, Lock, etc... all those actions are assist but totally unrewarded. You could heal a tanker from millions of MVP and get nothing at all but beg the tanker for sharing MVP item.









Mary Magdalene

#18
Quote from: ShadowLight on Aug 19, 2015, 02:19 AM
Talking about teaching, I'm quite disappointed with the game tutorial. I mean, do they really expect players to read those long text? They kept on adding new end-content but ignore updating the old ones. It felt as if they gave up on getting new players (well maybe they did). It would be my dream to remake the tutorial to make it more engaging than it is so that players would be able to learn better. But again, this takes too much time and effort for one man to do. What do you guys think about the training ground/tutorial (or did I miss any new updates on this)?

IMO, even though we know that most people really don't read them, atleast there's a tutorial if someone might wanna read it. More like I'd say to a newbie player: " I've already included everything you need to know on the tutorial i made, all you need to do now is to read it ".

But ofc learning a game is easier while playing it, i could say tutorials are a big help for starters.

EDIT: So maybe making it like some sort of a NPC that says " Press ALT + E to open your inventory " stuff plus they won't be able to move to the next tutorial NPC until they've done that and once the player does it, the NPC will give him/her rewards (EXP, zeny or etc).
" Not hurting somebody is a children's nonsense because you will really gonna hurt somebody even if you don't want to "

Playtester

The best tutorial is to start playing with an experienced player.

ShadowLight

Quote from: Mary Magdalene on Aug 19, 2015, 05:51 PM
IMO, even though we know that most people really don't read them, atleast there's a tutorial if someone might wanna read it. More like I'd say to a newbie player: " I've already included everything you need to know on the tutorial i made, all you need to do now is to read it ".

But ofc learning a game is easier while playing it, i could say tutorials are a big help for starters.

EDIT: So maybe making it like some sort of a NPC that says " Press ALT + E to open your inventory " stuff plus they won't be able to move to the next tutorial NPC until they've done that and once the player does it, the NPC will give him/her rewards (EXP, zeny or etc).

I've personally read a few papers and actually had a chance to discuss about it (game tutorial) with real game developers last year. Here are a couple of reasons why I believe the Ragnarok Tutorial should be updated/changed:

  • Too many long text: I brought a few of my friends to try Ragnarok Online last year and it is obvious that players will start to lose interest and spam next after 5 minutes in the training ground. This is definitely biggest mistake in the book to design any tutorial.
  • "What was the key again? Let me go back to .... oh wait!" : Whether or not the players read the text from the NPCs in the training ground (highly doubt it), it is almost certain that they won't remember it. And will they be able to go back to the training grounds? NO. And this is a BIG FLAW in the tutorial design.

Tutorial 101: Make the tutorial a fun experience, players would learn and remember better. And they should always be allowed to go back to specific sections in case they want to relearn specific mechanics. I can go on and on but I'll just focus on this one point for now.

Quote from: Playtester on Aug 20, 2015, 07:34 AM
The best tutorial is to start playing with an experienced player.
I have to agree that this is true for social games but sadly, Ragnarok Online seemed to be losing this. I used to remember back in the days where it is easy to party up or ask questions to strangers. But now, it feels more like a single player game (opinions & experience from my friends and I, doesn't apply to all). They were either ignored (probably bots), or the players would say they are busy with leveling. Players today seemed to move away from partying as it feels more punishing (for some reason) to do so. Just so you know, my friends are the friendliest bunch you can find, and they would never be rude to ask for help.

This is one of many reasons I would like to focus on re-ignite the social aesthetic of ragnarok online. Start to reward players for working together to solve problems/leveling - without punishing those who prefers playing alone.

Cheers,
ShadowLight

Playtester

Maybe you are just not playing on the right servers? I personally have introduced more than 100 people to the game by now.

RO generally is a very party-friendly game (pre-re anyway) with a very friendly community, so it isn't actually all that hard to find someone willing to help a new player.

Mary Magdalene

Quote from: ShadowLight on Aug 20, 2015, 02:47 PM
I've personally read a few papers and actually had a chance to discuss about it (game tutorial) with real game developers last year. Here are a couple of reasons why I believe the Ragnarok Tutorial should be updated/changed:

  • Too many long text: I brought a few of my friends to try Ragnarok Online last year and it is obvious that players will start to lose interest and spam next after 5 minutes in the training ground. This is definitely biggest mistake in the book to design any tutorial.
  • "What was the key again? Let me go back to .... oh wait!" : Whether or not the players read the text from the NPCs in the training ground (highly doubt it), it is almost certain that they won't remember it. And will they be able to go back to the training grounds? NO. And this is a BIG FLAW in the tutorial design.

Tutorial 101: Make the tutorial a fun experience, players would learn and remember better. And they should always be allowed to go back to specific sections in case they want to relearn specific mechanics. I can go on and on but I'll just focus on this one point for now.

Uh, so i dunno how would i teach people in-game without any written text stuff unless you go make your own RO video tutorial if you don't want them to ' read long text's ' and instead ' watch ' it. And i guess making some sort of reminding-tutorial NPC so they wont go back to training grounds in case they forgot some game mechanics? There's really lots of simple way for that. . .

I guess one thing that could help you with this tutorial you're planning is visit other MMO games and see how their tutorial system works and get some ideas from it.
" Not hurting somebody is a children's nonsense because you will really gonna hurt somebody even if you don't want to "

ShadowLight

Quote from: Mary Magdalene on Aug 21, 2015, 09:21 PM
Uh, so i dunno how would i teach people in-game without any written text stuff unless you go make your own RO video tutorial if you don't want them to ' read long text's ' and instead ' watch ' it. And i guess making some sort of reminding-tutorial NPC so they wont go back to training grounds in case they forgot some game mechanics? There's really lots of simple way for that. . .

I guess one thing that could help you with this tutorial you're planning is visit other MMO games and see how their tutorial system works and get some ideas from it.

Here's a pretty good video on tutorial that I like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCPcn-Q5nKE

Let me know what you think.

Mary Magdalene

Quote from: ShadowLight on Aug 21, 2015, 11:32 PM
Here's a pretty good video on tutorial that I like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCPcn-Q5nKE

Let me know what you think.

Well i just seriously dunno what kind of tutorial do you want, it sounds like you want your tutorial stuff to be that 100% perfect where i can't even expect that ALL of the players will read / use it or whatever you want it is to make and also because players have their own style of playing [ to be solo, with friends or whatever ] and you can't do anything about it.

but in my own opinion as a player i seriously don't care if the tutorial text is long / time-taking or what as long as it teaches me the BASICS of the game because with just the basics i could already start over and i could learn more while playing it further or like Playtester said, ask an experienced friend on the game or someone experienced to teach you more of it.
" Not hurting somebody is a children's nonsense because you will really gonna hurt somebody even if you don't want to "

Bue

Here is my thought for tutorials:

Create a leader-board for the tutorial and rank each players based on proficiency.

Then integrate the leader-board on the website for all to see. (very important)

Call the tutorial location a 'academy' or 'university' or any academic facility.

Reward players with 'praise', item packages, and level boost on tutorial completion.

Reassure players that ranked low on the leader-board.

Script the NPC dialogue to be 'displease' with players opting out of the tutorial, then allow them a chance to take the tutorial.

Last and most importantly, make sure the tutorial isn't garbage and that it is written by someone who mastered the game as a player.

Make sure you can assign points per completed exercise to perform the rank calculations.

This works by manipulating players on a psychological level; their fears on failing in academics (tutorial location), fears on being a loser (rank low on leaderboard), and fears on displeasing authority (the NPC); supposedly aim at students, arrogant men, and submissive men / female respectively. (students and arrogant men make up a very large population of the game). Again, don't forget to reward and reassure players on tutorial completion.

Don't worry about writing tutorials for pinoy and brs. They won't understand it anyways. Plus their XYZ friend or cousin is already a 'pro' hacker.

ShadowLight

Quote from: Mary Magdalene on Aug 22, 2015, 09:17 AM
Well i just seriously dunno what kind of tutorial do you want, it sounds like you want your tutorial stuff to be that 100% perfect where i can't even expect that ALL of the players will read / use it or whatever you want it is to make and also because players have their own style of playing [ to be solo, with friends or whatever ] and you can't do anything about it.

but in my own opinion as a player i seriously don't care if the tutorial text is long / time-taking or what as long as it teaches me the BASICS of the game because with just the basics i could already start over and i could learn more while playing it further or like Playtester said, ask an experienced friend on the game or someone experienced to teach you more of it.

Yes, sadly this is one of my many flaw  /sob (trying to be perfectionist - ended up wasting resources for it). Just wanted to hear you guys' opinion on this and I do understand more about how you guys feel about the tutorial. I'm about to start opening up the server soon and I just want to know more about what you guys think we should improve in the game.

FYI, building this server is not my primary goal. This is a platform for me to understand more about game design for my future original game. RO private server just happen to be one of the cheapest way for me to test out my ideas.

Quote from: Bue on Aug 22, 2015, 02:43 PM
Here is my thought for tutorials:

Create a leader-board for the tutorial and rank each players based on proficiency.

Then integrate the leader-board on the website for all to see. (very important)

Call the tutorial location a 'academy' or 'university' or any academic facility.

Reward players with 'praise', item packages, and level boost on tutorial completion.

Reassure players that ranked low on the leader-board.

Script the NPC dialogue to be 'displease' with players opting out of the tutorial, then allow them a chance to take the tutorial.

Last and most importantly, make sure the tutorial isn't garbage and that it is written by someone who mastered the game as a player.

Make sure you can assign points per completed exercise to perform the rank calculations.

This works by manipulating players on a psychological level; their fears on failing in academics (tutorial location), fears on being a loser (rank low on leaderboard), and fears on displeasing authority (the NPC); supposedly aim at students, arrogant men, and submissive men / female respectively. (students and arrogant men make up a very large population of the game). Again, don't forget to reward and reassure players on tutorial completion.

Don't worry about writing tutorials for pinoy and brs. They won't understand it anyways. Plus their XYZ friend or cousin is already a 'pro' hacker.

Yeah that is a good idea actually. I planned to do like a "Naruto-style" academy. Letting players get achievements for different level. Having "Proving Grounds" to let players get titles for finishing a challenge would make the player more desirable to be in a guild - who wouldn't want someone who's "qualified" as a good player?

I'm just thinking of making the tutorial part of the leveling process - or breadcrumbs (beyond novice training grounds). I am in no way trying to hinder player's creativity to play their style. Just to focus on the important aspect of the game (especially when a server is heavily customized).

NOTE: I'm NOT trying to make the tutorial compulsory by any means. Just an alternative for new or returning players to sharpen their basic skills.

Bue

#27
Do not call it a Naruto academy. (This is Midgard.) (How old are you?)
Do not reward achievements.
The point wasn't to make the tutorial mandatory.

You can treat it as a proficiency test to let players know where they stand.

New players can take the proficiency  test with NPC help, but penalty of ranking lower.

The point is to help all players get started on your server.

That was the point of the item packages and level or job boost.

(Let player choose job and graduate them to their first class at the end. This idea isn't new.)

Suspension

Quote from: Bue on Aug 22, 2015, 03:11 PM
Do not call it a Naruto academy. (This is Midgard.) (How old are you?)
He never said that he would call it Naruto Academy, he said he was planning to make a 'Naruto style' academy. The difference is clear.

Quote from: Bue on Aug 22, 2015, 03:11 PM
Do not reward achievements.
The point wasn't to make the tutorial mandatory.

You can treat it as a proficiency test to let players know where they stand.
Rewarding achievements is actually a good thing, it makes players think they're not losing time by learning how to play. Even more if they have never touched anything Ro-related.
Quote from: exii on Jun 27, 2015, 06:07 AM
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.

Bue

If the gaming content had any value, then it won't be a waste of time in the first place and you won't need to build an entire achievement system to provide players with an incentive to complete it.

Besides, the misused of achievements in games has made it a joke.