Would you say a GM is entitled to privacy as well? Such as, if a GM were to be playing on their player character, should players know this player character's name? Is a GM even entitled to playing normally as a player?
What if your player name, were to be linked with your full real name. Would it be right of a player to divulge your identity for everyone to see and potentially harass you in game and/or harass you in real life?
What is your take on it?
(Oh crud, posted this in the wrong section, can someone please move this to general discussion forum please? ^^)
i cant move it but Oo
if a gm have a legit account and plays there like a normal player without giving himself items or any other stuff then i would say he should keep his identity as a secret Oo
i mean i told my server that i have some legit accounts with no donation stuff or any other helpful stuff from my admin account and they asked me on the run whats the name of my characters and i just told them that i play as a normal player and such things and they accepted it
1 character is in a german guild 1 in an english guild and another in a spanish guild and no one knows that those 3 chars are my accounts because im good at hiding myself >3
its really funny to start conversations about the gms and to talk about yourself to get to know what they think about the server and the gms and players
but when a gm just uses is legit account to get free stuff on his acc with his gm then i would say he should be known in the server so that everyone can check him if he gives stuff away to other people to avoid corruption
i think its the only way GM's should play~
i mean if a GM is gona make a char i say they really shouldn't be letting anyone know their char is a legit......
if they do let ppl know they have a legit it leads to ppl screaming corruption and a lot of other things >.<
But isn't that WHY they should say what characters they used. Better to be upfront than to be "outed", people are going to assume you kept it secret cause you were giving the character stuff.
Wait, I know a way to solve the problem....no GMs! :)
Well, at least no item spawning/money powers. You are there to moderate the game, not to make armor poof into existence. (yes even event GMs, cheapskates, use your own money :p)
As for knowing thier real name...well only if it's a donation server, then obviously that is very important.
why shouldn't they be allowed to have legit chars? also if they want the privacy then why not? i myself didn't hide my legits but i didn't go around saying "OMFG KAETS IS MY LEGIT!! GO PM HIM" or whatever. people just eventually found out and i didn't care much. it is annoying to get PMs from people asking you questions or to do a bot check on someone if you're doing something with a few friends. but you got /exall for that.
so ya i think the GM should have privacy on his legit if he wants it.
real life name? lol. aris is my rl name and i use it whenever possible heh.
btw if you don't trust your GMs enough to not give them #item (well at least to the top rank GMs) then they shouldn't be GMs should they?
edit: also again. you people are confusing @item with #item...
I don't see why not.
The GM's of an RO server were also players once and they obviously like the game, so I don't see a problem with it. As long as they work for their gears like a normal player does and don't abuse any GM powers, it's all fine. There'll always be some players who will scream that you're using illegit gears, but you'll always have idiots on every server :)
About telling people about it...I guess you can look at it from two ways.
1. If you'd make it public that you are in fact a GM, you just know you will be bothered with what-not. Especially on a highly populated server as anthemRO, I don't think you can play in "peace" without having people spam you with questions.
2. If you would keep it hidden, you'd have to do it pretty damn good. As said at point 1, you're on a highly populated server, so if you are not careful enough, they will find out eventually. As there'll always be idiots, there'll probably be flaming about you "secretly" playing and such and rumours will cause more e-drama.
Eh, yeah...I guess if you'd do it, I'd go for the second option, to just keep it hidden and hope for the playerbase to not flame about it if they ever find out.
QuoteI don't see why not.
The GM's of an RO server were also players once and they obviously like the game, so I don't see a problem with it. As long as they work for their gears like a normal player does and don't abuse any GM powers, it's all fine. There'll always be some players who will scream that you're using illegit gears, but you'll always have idiots on every server Smiley
i were never a player on my server Oo from the start of the server i was a gm lvl 10 and went up to admin gm lvl 99 <3
nja, with my legits im always around the mainttown and on my main legit everyone knows me as the "lazy player lvl 100" who is sitting in pron
and if anyone asks who exkilla is i tell them that exkilla *me* will soon come online Oo but they never check it that i am the player Oo
they also said that i *my legit account* should be a gm on my server xD something funny
Quote from: JJJ on Apr 04, 2008, 06:50 PM
i think its the only way GM's should play~
i mean if a GM is gona make a char i say they really shouldn't be letting anyone know their char is a legit......
if they do let ppl know they have a legit it leads to ppl screaming corruption and a lot of other things >.<
They should not play.
Quote from: Leon.H on Apr 05, 2008, 01:04 PM
Quote from: JJJ on Apr 04, 2008, 06:50 PM
i think its the only way GM's should play~
i mean if a GM is gona make a char i say they really shouldn't be letting anyone know their char is a legit......
if they do let ppl know they have a legit it leads to ppl screaming corruption and a lot of other things >.<
They should not play.
Dx but thats not fair.....
what im saying is if they DO play then they shouldn't tell ppl who their legit is, or wat guild their in either
Quote from: Leon.H on Apr 05, 2008, 01:04 PM
They should not play.
People shouldn't get their panties in a knot over this and start thinking of GMs as humans, don't assume 100% of GMs are those irreverent kids or they'll all of a sudden with the snap of a finger be "corrupt" for god sakes ~~;.
Legit character? Why not, if they have the free time, it's not up to these zealous players to state how they do their actions, and if a GM DOES happen to abuse his power, it's pretty easy to fire them no? But unfortunatly....it's true, most of the time a GM, especially in the private servers slopped full of e-drama, they'd need it, hell, every person does. I just hate this prejudice going around where GMs are all of a sudden considered not an average player or human being.
Quote from: MrrgleCaek on Apr 05, 2008, 01:44 PM
Quote from: Leon.H on Apr 05, 2008, 01:04 PM
They should not play.
People shouldn't get their panties in a knot over this and start thinking of GMs as humans, don't assume 100% of GMs are those irreverent kids or they'll all of a sudden with the snap of a finger be "corrupt" for god sakes ~~;.
Legit character? Why not, if they have the free time, it's not up to these zealous players to state how they do their actions, and if a GM DOES happen to abuse his power, it's pretty easy to fire them no? But unfortunatly....it's true, most of the time a GM, especially in the private servers slopped full of e-drama, they'd need it, hell, every person does. I just hate this prejudice going around where GMs are all of a sudden considered not a average player or human being.
qft...
Some players seem to find it funny when they reveal identities, though, some player characters are linked to real names, and with that real addresses and such. Not only that but there are other people in some GM households, which makes it unfair to them because they also get harassed even though the others are legitimate.
I just think that if a GM would like privacy, they should be entitled to it just like any normal player. It's not like we run around telling everyone who is what gender, or what other characters this person has, etc /fsh
I don't know, I'm under the opinion that if a gm wants to play, they shouldn't be a gm. If they truly want to be doing their drop properly, they should be holding events/helping people or whatever job they are supposed to be doing, whenever they can be doing it.
A gm who takes their job seriously but also wants to have a l33t character is going to find this difficult unless they're spawning equips for themselves, because they can't keep up with 12 year olds that can devote all of their free time to leveling and nothing else.
^ there's always more than one GM on at once so GMs can fill in for each other when one wants to take breaks... I know I took a few breaks here and there by playing my legits with friends.
Quote from: Aris on Apr 06, 2008, 11:19 PM
^ there's always more than one GM on at once so GMs can fill in for each other when one wants to take breaks... I know I took a few breaks here and there by playing my legits with friends.
wat.
Haven't you admitted multiple times on the old Openkore forums that you bot? Quite contradictory.
Quote from: superja on Apr 06, 2008, 05:18 PM
I don't know, I'm under the opinion that if a gm wants to play, they shouldn't be a gm. If they truly want to be doing their drop properly, they should be holding events/helping people or whatever job they are supposed to be doing, whenever they can be doing it.
A gm who takes their job seriously but also wants to have a l33t character is going to find this difficult unless they're spawning equips for themselves, because they can't keep up with 12 year olds that can devote all of their free time to leveling and nothing else.
Have you ever GMed before? Of course it's the GM responsibilities to keep things in line, but hey, their job ain't 24/7, a little time to play the game doesn't hurt the server. Why does the dreaded 12 year old children, "l33t" characters, and "If a GM makes a legit character they're a terrible GM" come to mind? Like I said, don't assume 100% of GMs are going to be all set on leveling their legit character and making it "l33t" if they make one. What is with this blatant mistrust over this subject anyway? Just another catalyst for drama I guess...
On the other hand, it does become an issue when a server's staff spends more time playing the server than managing it, they just simply become a player that has a nice account with all the special @ commands on the side. But hey, it's the whacky world of private servers, unprofessionalism exists everywhere in it =B.
Ah, but have you ever GMed on an actual offical game before? Do people ever complain about GM corruption anywhere except for private servers? It seems to me that the lack of professional and mixing the duties of moderating a community with playing the game does just lead to trouble...as just glancing that these forums can tell you.
And even if there are a lot of professional GMs the fact is you really don't NEED them on servers which are a smll percentage of the size of an official server, and heck they don't even do the same things as GMs do on official servers.
Quote from: bulbasteve on Apr 07, 2008, 02:22 AM
Ah, but have you ever GMed on an actual offical game before? Do people ever complain about GM corruption anywhere except for private servers? It seems to me that the lack of professional and mixing the duties of moderating a community with playing the game does just lead to trouble...as just glancing that these forums can tell you.
And even if there are a lot of professional GMs the fact is you really don't NEED them on servers which are a smll percentage of the size of an official server, and heck they don't even do the same things as GMs do on official servers.
True Q_Q, but than again, people assigned as GMs on private servers don't get paid as they would on an official server, nor write an actual detailed resume to apply, so things aren't as "formal" as they would be.
Also true on GMs not being needed for small population servers, except for that 1-2 GMs (one for server ingame maintainence and another for event/police/whatever) be around not exactly all the time but pose as somewhat as an authority in the server to keep it relativly organized.
So....why is it a big deal to play even a little bit on a server you GM on? (besides the whole "corruption" issue, irresponsibilities of poor GMs...), if they played on another server people wouldn't make such a big deal anyway.
And yes...yes...glancing at these forums have told me much >_>, I am aware of all the bs that goes on in all those ill fated servers.
Yes,
but the average player will never understand and corruption is always the first assumption to everything.
if people werent nubs and gave random gms or idiots risky commands then corruption will ensue.
Quote from: dook on Apr 08, 2008, 01:10 AM
if people werent nubs and gave random gms or idiots risky commands then corruption will ensue.
Dx not entirely true... i know some pro GM's that "went to the dark side" for reasons like guild mates, friends, or girls =/
Actually, I have heard of corruption on official servers by the GMs there, in some countries GM do shaddy business and sell items to players for real cash, not in all official servers obviously, places like pRO and bRO came to my ears. Don't know how true it is, but it wouldnt surprise me too much, salaries there aren't exactly high.
As for players, like Itakou said, they will always assume there is corruption. In an immature mind, it's much easier to blame corruption rather than admit defeat if they are beaten by a gm's legit character, specially if they've seen corruption on other servers people are fast to make the wrong conclusions or associations.
As for keeping a character secret, it's not as easy as it can seem, specially if you wanna play with your friends. And this kind of information spreads like forest fire, once you tell someone, if they tell someone the word gets out madly fast. My legit on my server was secret for almost a year, but eventually it got out. Once people know, expect to be bothered ever so often for GM questions while you're playing.
Quote from: Jayne Cobb on Apr 06, 2008, 11:58 PM
Quote from: Aris on Apr 06, 2008, 11:19 PM
^ there's always more than one GM on at once so GMs can fill in for each other when one wants to take breaks... I know I took a few breaks here and there by playing my legits with friends.
wat.
Haven't you admitted multiple times on the old Openkore forums that you bot? Quite contradictory.
i only botted after i quit gming and you should know that if you read the ok forums.
Quote from: Aris on Apr 08, 2008, 08:23 AM
Quote from: Jayne Cobb on Apr 06, 2008, 11:58 PM
Quote from: Aris on Apr 06, 2008, 11:19 PM
^ there's always more than one GM on at once so GMs can fill in for each other when one wants to take breaks... I know I took a few breaks here and there by playing my legits with friends.
wat.
Haven't you admitted multiple times on the old Openkore forums that you bot? Quite contradictory.
wat does that have to do with my post?
I guess he's questioning the word "legit" that you put in your post (so it
is relevant to your post), because he claims you bot.
lmao read edited post. that was only till after i quit. i was talking about my time when i gmed which i didn't and like i said in my old original post.
what does it have to do with anything?
Quote from: Pandora on Apr 08, 2008, 08:18 AM
Actually, I have heard of corruption on official servers by the GMs there, in some countries GM do shaddy business and sell items to players for real cash, not in all official servers obviously, places like pRO and bRO came to my ears. Don't know how true it is, but it wouldnt surprise me too much, salaries there aren't exactly high.
As for players, like Itakou said, they will always assume there is corruption. In an immature mind, it's much easier to blame corruption rather than admit defeat if they are beaten by a gm's legit character, specially if they've seen corruption on other servers people are fast to make the wrong conclusions or associations.
As for keeping a character secret, it's not as easy as it can seem, specially if you wanna play with your friends. And this kind of information spreads like forest fire, once you tell someone, if they tell someone the word gets out madly fast. My legit on my server was secret for almost a year, but eventually it got out. Once people know, expect to be bothered ever so often for GM questions while you're playing.
*laughs* looking at the US salary as a GM ranging at 38k (per year), doesn't sound like something I'm going to set my future on =v. They must've been really desperate to make items for money on players, than again those countries you said where it's happened has a fair amount of poverty in them =\. It really sucks to see these "corrupt" servers run by some half-twat GMs create a bad image for everyone else, I just find it outrageous how these kids make SUCH a big deal over whining "corruption!", and ruining the game experience all together for others and themselves. So what now? I guess there's really no solution for GMs to attain some sense of privacy without completly making themselves another persona so people do not know?
i find it hilarious how i've been accused for iteming for a certain guild lro a while ago when i don't know ANYONE in the guild or even talked to any of them... people need to fix their brains imo
Quote from: Aris on Apr 08, 2008, 12:57 PM
i find it hilarious how i've been accused for iteming for a certain guild lro a while ago when i don't know ANYONE in the guild or even talked to any of them... people need to fix their brains imo
I no one deserves to be accused in that way without decent evidence...let me guess, they stalk you? ~~;
na lmfao. was a big rumor for a certain time amongst big guilds. i even joined a vent chat (didn't say it was my ofc) and they eventually started talking about me and s*** regarding that. was hilarious.
i actually posted this before in that lro is corrupt thread lol.
Well from my experience keeping legits secret only leads to much controversy, it would be far better for such things to be public.
For a few reasons I can think of, if a GM is suspected of corruption, it would be far more easier for players to spot it if they know who they are dealing with. You can make an easier judgment on whether that GM may be favoring a specific guild or group of friends by how they allow them to violate rules.
Whether or not they are keeping their legits secret, I think we can all agree on this... That Admins/GMs/Developers legits should ALWAYS remain unsecret between staff members.
In my honest opinion, you should either run the game or play the game. But I don't think you should do both. I came from a server where one GM had a legit account. Everyone knew and seemed cool with it. Then people started questioning where he got a card. And I had noticed little things and I promptly reported him to the other GM who never played in game because he knew it would be questionable. Well nothing was done forever about this corrupt GM. Then many months later he was banned and all the evidence was on his account.
And maybe I've just been burned in the past, but I think with power comes a huge responsibility and I've seen so many people abuse this power. Even the lvl 3 GM's abused power, so that is why I say no legit accounts if you are a GM.
And also, just because a GM of a private server doesn't get paid officially, doesn't mean he doesn't get paid. ;) There is a little thing called donations.
If you don't trust the GMs this much, don't join private servers.
Honestly, these people have access to high level commands and possibly the database itself. If they wanted to f*** around, they have one thousand ways to do it without even creating a character. So let them play.
And let them play Anonymously. Why? Putting OMG WHER U GOT DAT ITAM drama aside, GMs are player magnets, everyone runs to whine about most inane things to them. If it's known the GM has a legit character, he will probably spend half as much time dealing with people as he will actually playing.
Quote from: Imago Dei on Apr 11, 2008, 03:15 PM
In my honest opinion, you should either run the game or play the game. But I don't think you should do both. I came from a server where one GM had a legit account. Everyone knew and seemed cool with it. Then people started questioning where he got a card. And I had noticed little things and I promptly reported him to the other GM who never played in game because he knew it would be questionable. Well nothing was done forever about this corrupt GM. Then many months later he was banned and all the evidence was on his account.
And maybe I've just been burned in the past, but I think with power comes a huge responsibility and I've seen so many people abuse this power. Even the lvl 3 GM's abused power, so that is why I say no legit accounts if you are a GM.
And also, just because a GM of a private server doesn't get paid officially, doesn't mean he doesn't get paid. ;) There is a little thing called donations.
What?! GMs get paid from donations?! And here I thought donation money was spent on paying the fees for hosting and internet costs...silly me. (That was sarcasm in case you missed that).
I'm gonna repeat myself again, don't assume that GMs are all the same friggen type of person. That GM "broke" rules big whoop, move on, stop fueling the E-drama plagued on private servers ~~;.
Sorry if I sound insulting but
come on, this is the reason GMs need privacy in the first place, so they don't get pounded by inane zealot child-players to ruin their fun when they aren't GMing, it's not that hard to treat them like a normal player.
Denia: Yes, GMs are entitled to privacy. However, it doesn't mean they should go ahead and lie to their friends about stuff that doesn't matter, and try to be corrupt.
Quote from: Anti-Static Foam Cleaner on Apr 11, 2008, 05:29 PM
If you don't trust the GMs this much, don't join private servers.
What is with this assumption that keeps popping up that you need GMs? If they don't just GMs they should just join onr of the many private servers which do not do any moderation.
Shocking secret? It works perfectly fine.
Quote from: Leon.H on Apr 05, 2008, 01:04 PM
Quote from: JJJ on Apr 04, 2008, 06:50 PM
i think its the only way GM's should play~
i mean if a GM is gona make a char i say they really shouldn't be letting anyone know their char is a legit......
if they do let ppl know they have a legit it leads to ppl screaming corruption and a lot of other things >.<
They should not play.
If you're Leonheart from KeanFlow, f*** you, you owe me $300.
However I feel ONE HUDRED PERCENT that GMs and staff should not have legits.
I never did on the servers I GMed for, and not once was I involved in any drama.
Quote from: bulbasteve on Apr 12, 2008, 03:33 PM
What is with this assumption that keeps popping up that you need moderation in a competetive game full of 13-year old kids?
Obviously people must be just crazy
Quote from: Anti-Static Foam Cleaner on Apr 11, 2008, 05:29 PM
And let them play Anonymously. Why? Putting OMG WHER U GOT DAT ITAM drama aside, GMs are player magnets, everyone runs to whine about most inane things to them. If it's known the GM has a legit character, he will probably spend half as much time dealing with people as he will actually playing.
tell me about it... why i got a name change once on my legit. but people eventually just told others who i am so i didn't bother anymore...
and people asked why i have /exall on all the time. get a brain imo.
yesh i dun see wat the big deal is? so GM's have legits? as long as theres no corruption i see nothing wrong with it
the only prob is keeping it hidden from everyone else >.<
Wow okay, this discussion seems like it's going in a loop with everyone's opposing views (including me), imo on this discussion...I will say that I don't agree that "GM" people should not have a "legit" character, however I can understand why people would not want a person to do so and I'll accept that. Bulbasteve's solution just seems like the other extreme to me...I could only see it appealing to those "GM-hunters" that suspect corruption with every single person branded the title GM; GMs have uses as to reloading scripts, ingame assistance for characters, and-well, the usual reason people probably told you. People misuse a GM account? Oh well, every system of government has been misused, but it's still around.
That's my final rant on this bloody discussion >_>.
In the iRO GM Rules of Conduct, i believe it states that no GM shall play in the same server he moderates. Wise decision no?
but the GM's on IRO get paid no? =P
I'm just saying its better not to play the server you run.
Too many problems can arise from players. Accusations, drama, etc. In the end, all it takes is one person accusing you of @item-ing something for the whole community to go into turmoil. Its tried and true.
And yea, i guess admins do have the right to play on the server they run but if they do, they sure as hell shouldnt tell anyone. eh?
true true i see your point there
and super true that they shouldn't tell anyone...
like one server i know the GM's characters and their legit characters basically have the same name only one doesn't have the GM min front of it....
thats something i highly disagree with.... if a GM's gona play on their own server they really really shouldn't tell everyone >.>
Quote from: JJJ on Jun 26, 2008, 03:41 PM
true true i see your point there
and super true that they shouldn't tell anyone...
like one server i know the GM's characters and their legit characters basically have the same name only one doesn't have the GM min front of it....
thats something i highly disagree with.... if a GM's gona play on their own server they really really shouldn't tell everyone >.>
=high-five=
What if you were secret and not telling everyone that you're the admin... but suddenly 1 person knows and they blow your cover and tell everyone, would you really wanna stop playing after putting hours of work into a character? :(
Quote from: Pandora on Jun 26, 2008, 04:17 PM
What if you were secret and not telling everyone that you're the admin... but suddenly 1 person knows and they blow your cover and tell everyone, would you really wanna stop playing after putting hours of work into a character? :(
deny it.
Fake screenshots, get pretend angry, get pretend hurt. Be creative, theres no need to give up your char.
Since the word spread fast and everyone knew about it I just kinda decided to go "overt", and although I don't advertise myself as being the admin most people know. I've since created other char that I can go play in peace when I need some quiet time, but I don't have the time to level another trans.
Quote from: Lore on Jun 26, 2008, 06:15 PM
Quote from: Pandora on Jun 26, 2008, 04:17 PM
What if you were secret and not telling everyone that you're the admin... but suddenly 1 person knows and they blow your cover and tell everyone, would you really wanna stop playing after putting hours of work into a character? :(
deny it.
Fake screenshots, get pretend angry, get pretend hurt. Be creative, theres no need to give up your char.
Personally, I gave up on my character and got rid of everything, along with all my significant others things. Honestly leaves you feeling a bit of an empty shell of a GM. And either way, players will still scream corruption at you even if you have done all this. There isn't any use - but it still doesn't negate the fact that it'd be nice to have some privacy and not be harassed (not just myself, but for others around me as well.)
i guess there are some ways to hide the fact that your a GM
Like modifying the your speech patterns to make you less distinguishable.
Yet, even when most people attempt this it is not completely successful.
but if you ask me the best way is just to play your own character, and if someone has a problem with it tell them to shut up, and if necessary show them proof that your not corrupt...... ie. your gears (most GM's i know hardly have the time to get gears or lvl's), or your level, or even the logs if you have too
but even with all that their are some that still won't believe you... you just needa smack em once i guess
But I can't reach my arm into my ethernet cable to do that JJJ :(
From my P.O.V. it's no use to hide it.
Just tell the players straight from the beginning who you are and things will go fine.
People will always, really always find ways to reveal your real identity, so it's no point in hiding it. If they find out when you desperately try to hide it, it will only create drama.
It's pretty annoying when you're on the 10th floor of Thanatos Tower with 7 other people and a players PMs you and expect you to make the whole party wait while you switch to your GM char to assist his problem, but aside from those occurrence where players just "dont get it", it's not too bad. I haven't gotten that much drama from me playing, which I don't have much time for anyway XD
So yeah, I think GMs are entitled to some privacy and some quiet time too, when they're not on their GM, players should only PM them in case of real emergency, not for silly stuff.
How is it possible for other players to find out who you are? Unless you explicitly tell them, the best they can do is guess.
Sure someone could say "Oh hey you sound a lot like GM Pandora!" from the way you speak, but you sure as hell aren't gonna say, "Ahaha~ You sure got me! I AM PANDORA!"
I've played tons of characters in my RO career and its pretty much impossible to figure out who people are unless you reallllllly get to know them. In one case one of my buddies even tricked me for a week by using a different character. Sure i suspected it was him, but who the hell can be sure? And i wasnt about to insult him by asking "ARE U TARG IN DISGUISE?!" Either way, be careful and no one will ever find out.
Perhaps you should tell me the story of how you were exposed...
Same way of talking, way less active on normal ingame chars, way less inactive on old forum account, and so on. In small servers it won't be too hard to hide it, but in a rather big server, it's hard to hide it.
Quote from: DeePee on Jun 27, 2008, 02:53 PM
Same way of talking, way less active on normal ingame chars, way less inactive on old forum account, and so on. In small servers it won't be too hard to hide it, but in a rather big server, it's hard to hide it.
lol there was one case where a GM wanted to report someone (they were on their legit) the only mistake they made was that both the GM and legit had the same skin (it was a totally customized one... probly one of a kind)
No they are not entitled to it as well.
Quote from: Denia on Apr 04, 2008, 03:27 PM
Would you say a GM is entitled to privacy as well? Such as, if a GM were to be playing on their player character, should players know this player character's name? Is a GM even entitled to playing normally as a player?
What if your player name, were to be linked with your full real name. Would it be right of a player to divulge your identity for everyone to see and potentially harass you in game and/or harass you in real life?
What is your take on it?
I'm the Admin and Server Developer for my server. I also play a legit, and enjoy it. There's nothing ever wrong with wanting to play on your own server...if you didn't, RO would be less of a game and more like...well...work.
As far as players knowing identities, that's up to the GM/Admin's discretion, I guess. By divulging their identity, they're waiving their privacy. It's not right for a player to divulge that identity to *anybody*, but making a rule about it seems very extreme. I guess it's a matter of trust.
As for the "Should a GM be allowed to play a legit" question, I say, yes. In fact, I encourage it. Legits are strictly legitamate. Staffers(that choose to have legits) must hunt and procure their own gear, and they must level their characters on their own.
The only anti-drama rule I have is that no staffer on a legit is allowed to *lead* a guild. I've seen it happen on other servers and that staffer got eaten alive for "being corrupt" because they led a good WoE guild.
Just my take on it. By the way, I've read the posts about you, Denia; I really feel for you. :X I hope things get better for you in the future. Good luck.
You can't always hide it. What if you're the only GM online but on legit and partying in a dungeon, and then suddenly the server is looking for GM because they found a botter? I had no choice but to immediately hop off my legit, get on GM char and carry out the ban. Of course the timing of how you log off, only to see a GM log in, then to see you back again, blows every cover you got in front of that party group.
Sometimes priority just forces you to reveal your legit char, because there are other things before hiding your identity.
As a long runnign moderator, recently having retired from a rather inadequate server, I must admit I highly approve of moderator privacy, even int heir GM accounts. They need breaks, and sometimes just to enjoy the game. as a mod I sometimes spent a few minutes hidden in payon just listening to them music to relax so I wouldn't strangle some of the more obnoxious players and drown them alive e_e;
Mod peace, for the win D< Nuff said from me.
Quote from: Pandora on Jun 27, 2008, 02:38 PM
It's pretty annoying when you're on the 10th floor of Thanatos Tower with 7 other people and a players PMs you and expect you to make the whole party wait while you switch to your GM char to assist his problem, ...
Make a rule: When you are not in your GM char, you are off-duty, you are not working, you are under no obligation to reply, you are on your break. You may at most make a mental note, but no response should be expected.
Being a GM is not being a doctor where they can call you into duty anytime of the day, regardless of what you are doing. When you are playing, for $Deity's sake, PLAY, and forget about work. It is your only chance at sanity now that people have gotten hold of who your char is. And if people insist in bothering, use /exall.
Thats why I don't bother logging on my normal characters anymore.
Its sad but becoming a GM changes your whole gameplay alot. ~_~
Quote from: DeePee on Apr 05, 2008, 05:40 AM
I don't see why not.
The GM's of an RO server were also players once and they obviously like the game, so I don't see a problem with it. As long as they work for their gears like a normal player does and don't abuse any GM powers, it's all fine. There'll always be some players who will scream that you're using illegit gears, but you'll always have idiots on every server :)
About telling people about it...I guess you can look at it from two ways.
1. If you'd make it public that you are in fact a GM, you just know you will be bothered with what-not. Especially on a highly populated server as anthemRO, I don't think you can play in "peace" without having people spam you with questions.
2. If you would keep it hidden, you'd have to do it pretty damn good. As said at point 1, you're on a highly populated server, so if you are not careful enough, they will find out eventually. As there'll always be idiots, there'll probably be flaming about you "secretly" playing and such and rumours will cause more e-drama.
Eh, yeah...I guess if you'd do it, I'd go for the second option, to just keep it hidden and hope for the playerbase to not flame about it if they ever find out.
Agreed.
Quote from: Skotlex on Jun 28, 2008, 04:12 AM
Make a rule: When you are not in your GM char, you are off-duty, you are not working, you are under no obligation to reply, you are on your break. You may at most make a mental note, but no response should be expected.
Being a GM is not being a doctor where they can call you into duty anytime of the day, regardless of what you are doing. When you are playing, for $Deity's sake, PLAY, and forget about work. It is your only chance at sanity now that people have gotten hold of who your char is. And if people insist in bothering, use /exall.
Ya, we got a sort of guideline that goes like "only pm gm on their legit if it's an emergency", but player's conception of what constitutes an "emergency" sometimes greatly differs from my personal opinion >_<
Usually if you politely explain that you're not available most will understand, only a few buggers will insist. /exall works well too, and I've made use of it sometimes if I'm really not in the mood, best to ignore rather than to lash out at people ^^
lol @ $Deity XD
GMs should not be allowed to have legits, regardless of their GM levels (whether or not they can spawn items, give levels, etc). Many players don't have an understanding of the GM level system, and so they might fear that any GM with a legit character might actually have an illegit character. Also, a GM may become too attached to his character, and may begin to neglect his duties as a GM.
Despite how much a person says they will have self control, it usually turns out for the worse.
It's for the sake of the server for GMs to be fully committed to their job. They should be fully aware of the consequences of their commitment, and if they're not ready to accept the consequences, they're not ready to make that commitment.
That's when GMing becomes work. All work and no play makes for a dull experience.
I'm not ready to make that sacrifice (stop playing entirely) and I consider myself to be pretty hardcore dedicated and committed to my server. I work on it about 30 hours weekly and get to play about 10~15 hours I'd say, and I need that play time.
In addition, playing keeps me in the beat of the server, I can see things from a player's perspective. Anyhow, to each their own opinion, I don't hide the fact that I play, so hopefully someone who dislikes it doesn't join and finds themselves a server where gm don't play at all (good luck).
What's the use of server owners if they can't control their GMs and let alone the server?
GMs should be allowed to have a legit and the server owner should be alert to any unlegitness.
Quote from: ulzimate on Jul 04, 2008, 06:54 AM
GMs should not be allowed to have legits, regardless of their GM levels (whether or not they can spawn items, give levels, etc). Many players don't have an understanding of the GM level system, and so they might fear that any GM with a legit character might actually have an illegit character. Also, a GM may become too attached to his character, and may begin to neglect his duties as a GM.
Despite how much a person says they will have self control, it usually turns out for the worse.
It's for the sake of the server for GMs to be fully committed to their job. They should be fully aware of the consequences of their commitment, and if they're not ready to accept the consequences, they're not ready to make that commitment.
I have to strongly disagree. The allowance of legits is purely a trust issue, and if you can't trust your staff to control themselves whilst on a legit and not fall victim to the temptation of generating items and hacking their stats, then you obviously can't trust your staff to handle issues in a professional manner, work with updates, scripting, et cetera.
It kind of helps too that the staff of my server isn't all children(no offense to anybody here who are under 18). I'm the Admin/Server Developer of my server, and I'm 26. My head GM is 24. The youngest member of the team is 19. There have been absolutely no trades to and from GMs to legits, no @iteming anything that isn't mean to be an event prize, and every staffer who has a legit on my server still builds with 7237 points like everybody else, gets killed in PVP and WoE like everybody else, and plays the game like everybody else.
If you can't trust your staffers to have a legit, then the server's staff definitely has a problem.
Quote from: Loki on Jul 04, 2008, 08:06 AM
GMs should be allowed to have a legit and the server owner should be alert to any unlegitness.
No, they should not have one. It's a matter of being proffesional.
A GM Legit equals an unfair advantage in some way or another. It can be just the fact that he can warp to check if the mvp is still alive or not and he can also tour & see what ppl are doing in castles inside of WOE. as it can expand to other stuff as we've seen on the ro servers these last years.
well theres this problem though
if a GM never plays a legit, they never have to go out, make money, and level, then when it comes to possibly nerfing things if ppl ask they'll have absolutely no experience with the item/thing in question which makes nerfing it incredibly hard for them to do
not to mention professional GM's get paid real money to do their GM jobs, on our private servers we its extremely rare to see a GM who gets paid real cash
so to sum it up i think that: GM's can have legits, but they shouldn't make it public, and they have to have very strict rules set to what they can do as a GM
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 04, 2008, 10:04 AM
Quote from: Loki on Jul 04, 2008, 08:06 AM
GMs should be allowed to have a legit and the server owner should be alert to any unlegitness.
No, they should not have one. It's a matter of being proffesional.
A GM Legit equals an unfair advantage in some way or another. It can be just the fact that he can warp to check if the mvp is still alive or not and he can also tour & see what ppl are doing in castles inside of WOE. as it can expand to other stuff as we've seen on the ro servers these last years.
Being a legit means he DOESN'T use those things. He/she only uses what any normal player can use.
Also its all about trust. I personally don't care if a GM has a legit or not as long as its actually a legit.
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 04, 2008, 10:04 AM
No, they should not have one. It's a matter of being proffesional.
A GM Legit equals an unfair advantage in some way or another. It can be just the fact that he can warp to check if the mvp is still alive or not and he can also tour & see what ppl are doing in castles inside of WOE. as it can expand to other stuff as we've seen on the ro servers these last years.
I think you need to go back and learn the definition of a legit, Rehael. A legit account is in the server's login SQL and CP as a "Level 0", or a normal player account. I fail to see the lack of professionalism for playing the game.
There's no such thing as a "GM Legit", unless if you're referring to characters that the Admin gives GM commands on a Player's Sprite.
QuoteNo, they should not have one. It's a matter of being proffesional.
Its a matter of you dont have crap idea of what you are talking about.
Period.
I seriously despise any server owner AND/OR game-master that dont play their own server, that shows up how much they care about it.
I have seen to many instances of servers that their gms were playing something else (wow, lineage, or whatever uber-3D crap is on high at the moment), and only attending to their player needs on a week basis (on the best scenario), lacking on updates, letting their server to be hacked and exploited by people and do nothing about it.
Being honest, do you REALLY believe that if you dont trust the owners of the server your play to be honest with their characters and not @item themselves, that they wont have a "legit" (how i hate that word) character and not do stuff behind scenes? If so, you really need to grow up, the world doesnt spin that way.
Again, you should review your concepts about what are you looking for when playing a game. Do you really think that being the best at some unknown private server pvp ranking makes you any important? So what if the server owner @item'ed himself and beats you on pvp (or woe, for all i care), does that make him better than you enough to hurt your e-ego (to not call it e-penis) and you must hate him for having fun on his OWN server the way he WISH to?
There's no law against GMs having a legit. Its a matter of trust and opinion too. If you don't trust the GMs who have legit, don't play the server. I once played a community server where the GM @item himself and joined a guild. I personally don't give a crap because even with @item, he still gets 100k+ SBK from my guild mates (Note: This was a blvl 255 HR PvP and WoE base server. You can pretty much get anything without grinding too much; Thanatos ftw).
So...GM can have a legit if they want to. I think with legits and people not knowing they have one, the GMs would have a better insight on the community.
Wow, you guys are so aggressive.
But alright.
So i'm talking crap heh?, i don't know what's the definition of legit ?
Skip the word legit & let's go straight to the definition of the word FAIR PLAY :: That means that NO PARTICIPANT IN THE GAME OF ANY KIND should have ANY KIND OF ADVANTAGE NO MATTER HOW SMALL IT IS OVER ANOTHER PLAYER
And a Game Master who also plays in the game with another character even if it is an account with 0 Powers, still has a lot of advantages that can reach a very high level.
Not necessarily giving items,not really killing everybody with his GM Char. Just spying in castles or maybe warping his char & his girl friend & his whole damn guild or maybe tanking an mvp.
Now if you don't agree, then it is you crap tards shouldn't administer a server for other people because it would seem to me, here in this topic that you just want to "standardize" the GM legit thing' so you can do it too.
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 08:58 AM
Wow, you guys are so aggressive.
But alright.
So i'm talking crap heh?, i don't know what's the definition of legit ?
Skip the word legit & let's go straight to the definition of the word FAIR PLAY :: That means that NO PARTICIPANT IN THE GAME OF ANY KIND should have ANY KIND OF ADVANTAGE NO MATTER HOW SMALL IT IS OVER ANOTHER PLAYER
And a Game Master who also plays in the game with another character even if it is an account with 0 Powers, still has a lot of advantages that can reach a very high level.
Not necessarily giving items,not really killing everybody with his GM Char. Just spying in castles or maybe warping his char & his girl friend & his whole damn guild or maybe tanking an mvp.
Now if you don't agree, then it is you crap tards shouldn't administer a server for other people because it would seem to me, here in this topic that you just want to "standardize" the GM legit thing' so you can do it too.
I was going to take this as a valid argument until you said the word "Crap tards". Really professional behavior for a server administrator, spot on.
If you're that paranoid about people using their GM characters to recall their friends and spying on castles, then best of luck running the server completely by yourself, because that's what you're insinuating: Everybody who has a legit character uses a GM to get an informational edge over others. Which really isn't the case in this thread. Nowhere in this thread did Denia or anybody else say "Hey, let's standardize this whole legit thing and make it so everybody does it!". It was merely a question of opinion on the matter, legits, legit usage, and the privacy therein.
By the way, thanks for telling me that I shouldn't admin my server because I choose to play a legit. That's a lot coming from somebody whose site and server isn't even functional, directed at me, whose server has been up and fully functional since April.
I was going to avoid taking personal digs at people, but unfortunately, it can't be helped. Oh well. If you can't debate like a big boy, please, don't post in here.
Quote from: Descent on Jul 05, 2008, 01:10 PM
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 08:58 AM
Wow, you guys are so aggressive.
But alright.
So i'm talking crap heh?, i don't know what's the definition of legit ?
Skip the word legit & let's go straight to the definition of the word FAIR PLAY :: That means that NO PARTICIPANT IN THE GAME OF ANY KIND should have ANY KIND OF ADVANTAGE NO MATTER HOW SMALL IT IS OVER ANOTHER PLAYER
And a Game Master who also plays in the game with another character even if it is an account with 0 Powers, still has a lot of advantages that can reach a very high level.
Not necessarily giving items,not really killing everybody with his GM Char. Just spying in castles or maybe warping his char & his girl friend & his whole damn guild or maybe tanking an mvp.
Now if you don't agree, then it is you crap tards shouldn't administer a server for other people because it would seem to me, here in this topic that you just want to "standardize" the GM legit thing' so you can do it too.
I was going to take this as a valid argument until you said the word "Crap tards". Really professional behavior for a server administrator, spot on.
If you're that paranoid about people using their GM characters to recall their friends and spying on castles, then best of luck running the server completely by yourself, because that's what you're insinuating: Everybody who has a legit character uses a GM to get an informational edge over others. Which really isn't the case in this thread. Nowhere in this thread did Denia or anybody else say "Hey, let's standardize this whole legit thing and make it so everybody does it!". It was merely a question of opinion on the matter, legits, legit usage, and the privacy therein.
By the way, thanks for telling me that I shouldn't admin my server because I choose to play a legit. That's a lot coming from somebody whose site and server isn't even functional, directed at me, whose server has been up and fully functional since April.
I was going to avoid taking personal digs at people, but unfortunately, it can't be helped. Oh well. If you can't debate like a big boy, please, don't post in here.
Don't count on me for being professionals or even nice with you guys after the previous posts. Plus i'm running the server with other people who value the
fairness of the game.
Then if you defend something that includes that you agree & probably also do it.
Since the point was raised, as an admin/Gm who plays in his own server ::
you need to hurry and try to standardize, or make it normal or perhaps make it a 'RIGHT' to have a legit.Again :
You are crap if you play & GM/admin your own server because that's simply s*** to the other party (the players)On a side note, this is my opinion as a former ragnarok online player who grew to hate the " GM's legit ". Not as ValiantRO's admin.
Oh yeah, don't compare yourself to me like that, we're kinda on different levels :/
Rehael... this is something I do not understand. If you are so sure a GM will help his legit with his other GM account, then what is to stop them from aiding any other friend or person they like in the same manner? If they have a girlfriend who also plays, I am pretty certain they would not hesitate to help her in any way they would help themselves.
So your argument pretty much is "power corrupts, you can't trust them", but if that is the case, then you can't trust that the corruption will extend to their friends as well, so you are basically saying GMs can't be trusted. Regardless of them having legits or not.
Quote from: Skotlex on Jul 05, 2008, 02:18 PM
so you are basically saying GMs can't be trusted. Regardless of them having legits or not.
That's only natural. As you said corruption can extend to their friends, one would need to regularly check them & constantly keep an eye on them legit or not legit.
However, when you ask an applicant for a GM this question.
" If you want to gm here, you won't have the right to have a legit character .are you in? "
Their answer clearly determines their intentions.
But some rather foxy ones might say YES & tag along in order to make a legit afterwards without telling me, that's where my vigilance comes in action.
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 08:58 AM
Don't count on me for being professionals or even nice with you guys after the previous posts. Plus i'm running the server with other people who value the fairness of the game.
Then if you defend something that includes that you agree & probably also do it.
Since the point was raised, as an admin/Gm who plays in his own server :: you need to hurry and try to standardize, or make it normal or perhaps make it a 'RIGHT' to have a legit.
Again :
You are crap if you play & GM/admin your own server because that's simply s*** to the other party (the players)
On a side note, this is my opinion as a former ragnarok online player who grew to hate the " GM's legit ". Not as ValiantRO's admin.
Oh yeah, don't compare yourself to me like that, we're kinda on different levels :/
Are you serious, you talk that way and you don't even know me or how my server is run. Are you trying to start a flame war? Because the thread was doing perfectly fine until you showed up and started ripping people for their choices. There's no right or wrong for this, just different perspectives. However, judging by your posts, you feel that your way is the only right way and everybody else is an idiot.
I'd rather not compare myself to you, because I'm not an childish, close-minded zealot. So yes, I guess you're right, we are in fact on different levels. You do realize the more you call people "s***", "crap tards", so on and so forth, you are essentially lowering yourself, and keep in mind too: This thread isn't restricted. What if your potential players, looking to join your server, see you having a childish tantrum over a difference in opinion? Sure going to make me want to join ValiantRO.
Class act, Rehael. Class act.
This whole thing could have been avoided, too, if you just simply said "I disagree and disallow my staff to have legits" rather than go on this holier-than-thou tangent you seem to be reveling in.
Edit: If you want to go ahead and flame me, go ahead and do it in my PM inbox. This thread doesn't need this rubbish.
Looks like you somehow erased the previous topics from your memory when typing your posts. :/
Plus over the years this has taken a far more important direction than just an " opinion ". This is what has ruined 10's of servers & made Thousands of players leave RO.
Simply because of the selfishness of some kikoo admins who want to enjoy the game using their powers as a GM.
However they forget how they felt when they were playing legitimately on a server & then found that all their efforts amounted to nothing because the GM always powered up his char or the opposing guild.
For some of us RO, is just a passive entertainment source where you spent an hour or 2 a day to levelup a character a bit; but for some it can radically become a sport or a competition.
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 03:10 PM
Looks like you somehow erased the previous topics from your memory when typing your posts. :/
Plus over the years this has taken a far more important direction than just an " opinion ". This is what has ruined 10's of servers & made Thousands of players leave RO.
Simply because of the selfishness of some kikoo admins who want to enjoy the game using their powers as a GM.
However they forget how they felt when they were playing legitimately on a server & then found that all their efforts amounted to nothing because the GM always powered up his char or the opposing guild.
For some of us RO, is just a passive entertainment source where you spent an hour or 2 a day to levelup a character a bit; but for some it can radically become a sport or a competition.
No, I haven't erased previous topics from my memory. I've taken into account all the "avoid this server" and "*server name here* is corrupt, don't play!". I'll agree with you on the corruption factor: Corruption and favourtism has ruined server after server, many of them I was a proud player of up until I found out about said corruption.
But that doesn't exactly mean that *every* staffer of *every* RO Private Server out there is going to go down that same road. For example:
My legits are a 217 SinX and a 208 LK. I'm in the midst of a major server update, and if I'm lucky to even get on one of my two legits, I don't get very far due to the realization that I still want to work on the update, even if I'm "taking a break" by playing for a bit on the server I worked so hard on. Neither of these two characters have anything that can't be obtained by other players. Their weapons and armors come from mobs. I spent a lot of time breaking Pike[4] after Pike[4] until I finally got that one +10. I have 3 MVP Cards, one I purchased from a player's shop(Baphomet Card), the other two(Amon Ra and Osiris) were hunted over time. My zeny comes from selling my autolooted drops to NPCs. They(my characters) are in their own guilds so that people don't spam me with invites. Nobody(aside from staffers) know who they are. I don't PvP, nor WoE, neither does the rest of the staff(those that choose to do legits aren't exactly restricted, per se. But I do ask that they don't make a habit of PvP and WoE, and prioritizing both over their server duties). It's quite possible to create full legits, but what the staff needs is a leader(in this case, myself) to set an example of what is the right thing to do.
Even my Admin, who is a 255 Sin X at the moment, is still built fully legitamate, and I go into PVP and let players knock him around for laughs. He's as killable as anybody.
My point is that it is very possible to have a level-headed, mature team that can be responsible enough to handle legits, and at that point, they blend in seamlessly with players. I can have normal conversations with my community, keep an eye out for bugs, hell, I even caught a bot once while I was on my legit.
For those that take it to the extreme, letting personal issues override their duty to the server, and falling victim to the temptation of power, that's what RMS forums are for, and those fun topics about server corruption.
You can't make it a global standard of telling people they can't have legits, it's impossible. But you can set a great example for other servers(and their staff) out there by doing it right.
Quote from: Descent on Jul 05, 2008, 03:45 PM
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 03:10 PM
Looks like you somehow erased the previous topics from your memory when typing your posts. :/
Plus over the years this has taken a far more important direction than just an " opinion ". This is what has ruined 10's of servers & made Thousands of players leave RO.
Simply because of the selfishness of some kikoo admins who want to enjoy the game using their powers as a GM.
However they forget how they felt when they were playing legitimately on a server & then found that all their efforts amounted to nothing because the GM always powered up his char or the opposing guild.
For some of us RO, is just a passive entertainment source where you spent an hour or 2 a day to levelup a character a bit; but for some it can radically become a sport or a competition.
No, I haven't erased previous topics from my memory. I've taken into account all the "avoid this server" and "*server name here* is corrupt, don't play!". I'll agree with you on the corruption factor: Corruption and favourtism has ruined server after server, many of them I was a proud player of up until I found out about said corruption.
But that doesn't exactly mean that *every* staffer of *every* RO Private Server out there is going to go down that same road. For example:
My legits are a 217 SinX and a 208 LK. I'm in the midst of a major server update, and if I'm lucky to even get on one of my two legits, I don't get very far due to the realization that I still want to work on the update, even if I'm "taking a break" by playing for a bit on the server I worked so hard on. Neither of these two characters have anything that can't be obtained by other players. Their weapons and armors come from mobs. I spent a lot of time breaking Pike[4] after Pike[4] until I finally got that one +10. I have 3 MVP Cards, one I purchased from a player's shop(Baphomet Card), the other two(Amon Ra and Osiris) were hunted over time. My zeny comes from selling my autolooted drops to NPCs. They(my characters) are in their own guilds so that people don't spam me with invites. Nobody(aside from staffers) know who they are. I don't PvP, nor WoE, neither does the rest of the staff(those that choose to do legits aren't exactly restricted, per se. But I do ask that they don't make a habit of PvP and WoE, and prioritizing both over their server duties). It's quite possible to create full legits, but what the staff needs is a leader(in this case, myself) to set an example of what is the right thing to do.
Even my Admin, who is a 255 Sin X at the moment, is still built fully legitamate, and I go into PVP and let players knock him around for laughs. He's as killable as anybody.
My point is that it is very possible to have a level-headed, mature team that can be responsible enough to handle legits, and at that point, they blend in seamlessly with players. I can have normal conversations with my community, keep an eye out for bugs, hell, I even caught a bot once while I was on my legit.
For those that take it to the extreme, letting personal issues override their duty to the server, and falling victim to the temptation of power, that's what RMS forums are for, and those fun topics about server corruption.
You can't make it a global standard of telling people they can't have legits, it's impossible. But you can set a great example for other servers(and their staff) out there by doing it right.
Ah, a highrate... none needs to cheat there.
Try to set an example with that idea on your mind in a low rate server. , no even a pseudo LR 10x or 15x would be a great inspiration.
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 03:50 PM
Ah, a highrate... none needs to cheat there.
Try to set an example with that idea on your mind in a low rate server. , no even a pseudo LR 10x or 15x would be a great inspiration.
Similar results can be achieved no matter the environment. 8)
Quote from: Descent on Jul 05, 2008, 04:40 PM
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 03:50 PM
Ah, a highrate... none needs to cheat there.
Try to set an example with that idea on your mind in a low rate server. , no even a pseudo LR 10x or 15x would be a great inspiration.
Similar results can be achieved no matter the environment. 8)
Does your statement have any base <_<
Wouldn't it be great if someone thought to make it so that you can't dual client while logged into a GM account......it eliminates corruption and insures players of Legitness. Anyone know if this is possible, i've never seen it before?
Personally, I'm against duel clienting in it's entirety. o_O; Having access to free buffs and links without having to at least ask someone for a hand is kind of against my idea of being a fair playing style at all.
As far as I know, removing duel clienting from being possible at all is also the only way to make sure the GMs can't do it. o.o
Simple rules
1. A GM cannot be logged into their legit and GM account simultaneously no matter what circumstance.
2. A GM cannot participate in WoE on their legit, A GM cannot grant access to their legit/gm char to other players or GMs.
3. A GM cannot assist a player and or other GMs with the knowledge of the direction in which a WoE is going, this is including but not limited to, player coordinates, PVP, hidden players, monster locations, current player amounts on map, etc.
Rules that I have tried to implement on other servers, but some admins I have served "under" veto these rules even though it is clear that corruption tends to begin with WoE and there were other GMs noted abusing powers for WoE ( they were fired... but STILL ) .
As to Rehael's response, I've said this before, if a GM was looking to do corrupted activities... They'd find it no matter how many rules or unfair expectations you place on them. Infact placing unfair expectations will probably increase the chances of corruption rather than decreasing them.
As for hidden GM identities/legits, I cant remember if I said this... But I prefer that they are not hidden for obvious reasons. Although I can understand why some people would want to be hidden.
Mewi, i like your rules except for #2 obviously because WoE is the best aspect of RO. GMs should just follow the basic rules while WoEing like #3 and GMs should never run guilds (tho what decent GM has time to). And in large servers where everyone knows your legits name i'd advise not to WoE on an empbreaking class....
It all comes down to the Admins trust in his/her GMs whether or not he excludes them from WoE....but if he doesn't that just shows he/she doesn't have complete trust in the legitness of his/her GMs.
Quote from: GM Thorin on Jul 05, 2008, 07:55 PM
Mewi, i like your rules except for #2 obviously becuase WoE is the bet aspect of RO. GMs should just follow the basic rules while WoEing like #3 and GMs should never run guilds (tho what decent GM has time to). And in large servers where everyone knows your legits name i'd advise not to WoE on an empbreaking class....
It all comes down to the Admins trust in his GMs whether or not he excludes them from WoE....but if he doen't that just shows he does't have complete trust in the legitness of his GMs.
No that just shows how some of you gms & admins want to play,have fun at WoE with your legitness ~~~~ yummy.
and is that a bad thing Reheal......
Quote from: GM Thorin on Jul 05, 2008, 08:01 PM
and is that a bad thing Reheal......
Yep it's evil; should be as bad as the 7 sins :/
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 07:57 PM
Quote from: GM Thorin on Jul 05, 2008, 07:55 PM
Mewi, i like your rules except for #2 obviously becuase WoE is the bet aspect of RO. GMs should just follow the basic rules while WoEing like #3 and GMs should never run guilds (tho what decent GM has time to). And in large servers where everyone knows your legits name i'd advise not to WoE on an empbreaking class....
It all comes down to the Admins trust in his GMs whether or not he excludes them from WoE....but if he doen't that just shows he does't have complete trust in the legitness of his GMs.
No that just shows how some of you gms & admins want to play,have fun at WoE with your legitness ~~~~ yummy.
The simplest rule a GM/Owner SHOULD FOLLOW
Trust No One, always ask questions, always check the logs.
Quote from: Mewi on Jul 05, 2008, 08:47 PM
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 07:57 PM
Quote from: GM Thorin on Jul 05, 2008, 07:55 PM
Mewi, i like your rules except for #2 obviously becuase WoE is the bet aspect of RO. GMs should just follow the basic rules while WoEing like #3 and GMs should never run guilds (tho what decent GM has time to). And in large servers where everyone knows your legits name i'd advise not to WoE on an empbreaking class....
It all comes down to the Admins trust in his GMs whether or not he excludes them from WoE....but if he doen't that just shows he does't have complete trust in the legitness of his GMs.
No that just shows how some of you gms & admins want to play,have fun at WoE with your legitness ~~~~ yummy.
The simplest rule a GM/Owner SHOULD FOLLOW
Trust No One, always ask questions, always check the logs.
Amen to your wise words little girl.
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 08:59 PM
Amen to your wise words little girl.
Em... little? I'm 23 years old ;\
Quote from: Mewi on Jul 05, 2008, 09:10 PM
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 08:59 PM
Amen to your wise words little girl.
Em... little? I'm 23 years old ;\
oh sowwy; you give a young impression ;p.
but i'm still older than so does that justify my calling you a lily girl x) ?
Rehael, seriously...I pity anybody who has the unfortunate experience of being on your staff and server with the way you talk down to people. :X
@ GM Thorin: No, it's not a bad thing. I'm just going to get into the habit of ignoring Rehael's posts from this point onward.
@ Mewi: That step is unnecessary if you have quality staff members employed. :X
Quote from: Descent on Jul 05, 2008, 09:22 PM
Rehael, seriously...I pity anybody who has the unfortunate experience of being on your staff and server with the way you talk down to people. :X
@ GM Thorin: No, it's not a bad thing. I'm just going to get into the habit of ignoring Rehael's posts from this point onward.
Ignoring =/= Proving one's point.
How did you get to the conclusion that i wouldn't respect other staff members ?
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 09:26 PM
Ignoring =/= Proving one's point.
How did you get to the conclusion that i wouldn't respect other staff members ?
I don't know. Probably around the time you stopped respecting people who don't share the same opinion as you do.
Good luck with ValiantRO regardless. Unlike you, I can at least deal with opposing parties with something called class.
Quote from: Descent on Jul 06, 2008, 01:44 AM
Quote from: Rehael on Jul 05, 2008, 09:26 PM
Ignoring =/= Proving one's point.
How did you get to the conclusion that i wouldn't respect other staff members ?
I don't know. Probably around the time you stopped respecting people who don't share the same opinion as you do.
Good luck with ValiantRO regardless. Unlike you, I can at least deal with opposing parties with something called class.
Class doesn't seem to get you that far :(
but anyway leaving that aside. let's get back to topic.
I hope some PLAYERS Will also share their mind on this.
Sometimes you just have to stop GMs from having a legit simply because players will create rumours which can do more damage to the server than any real corruption does :< Kinda unfair to GMs, really.
EDIT: And this can go so far, I have seen more than once reviews in RMS talking about "the GMs" in MouRO, yet they don't realize that from the get-go it is advertised that there are no GMs? They just automatically assume that some regulars in there that know well the server and help others are GMs. If they can assume this, you know just how much they will assume throughout time...
Quote from: Skotlex on Jul 06, 2008, 07:17 AM
Sometimes you just have to stop GMs from having a legit simply because players will create rumours which can do more damage to the server than any real corruption does :< Kinda unfair to GMs, really.
EDIT: And this can go so far, I have seen more than once reviews in RMS talking about "the GMs" in MouRO, yet they don't realize that from the get-go it is advertised that there are no GMs? They just automatically assume that some regulars in there that know well the server and help others are GMs. If they can assume this, you know just how much they will assume throughout time...
Precisely my sentiments.
I generally advise our GMs not to get involved with competitive play at all, rumours cause far more damage than its worth.
There will always be rumours, but there's no point in fueling the fire :-\
Quote from: Descent on Jul 05, 2008, 09:22 PM
Rehael, seriously...I pity anybody who has the unfortunate experience of being on your staff and server with the way you talk down to people. :X
@ GM Thorin: No, it's not a bad thing. I'm just going to get into the habit of ignoring Rehael's posts from this point onward.
@ Mewi: That step is unnecessary if you have quality staff members employed. :X
I do not make unnecessary 'steps' o.O All rules I suggest have a reason. Even good uncorrupt GMs can end up being corrupt, no matter WHO you hire, it is always a possibility and with possibilities you need protocols and regulations.
Quote from: Serenity on Jul 06, 2008, 09:30 PM
Mewi's been on a ton of servers where staff either turned over, ended up turning or were corrupt the entire time, or showed favoritism, etc. Some people call it paranoia, but she's right. As is Faith.
The wisest thing I've seen yet on this thread is, "trust no one".
I think most administrators, new ones at least, have their power trip phase, then it fizzles out. Once that's done and over with in my eyes, as I've been witness to it happening countless times myself, *those* admins turn out to be extremely wonderful. If the administrator doesn't hawk their logs, question their staff to make sure everyone's on the same page, and gather feedback from community members for evaluations, then as a player, I simply refuse to play on the server.
I myself personally review all logs nightly and question my GM's anytime something even minor comes up as a red flag in my eyes. I've dealt with corruption, I've done the whole favoritism phase, and I'm so over it all. If people are still power tripping over Ragnarok in 2008, then shame on them. It's a game for crying out loud. Just play, it's not necessary to cheat. And to those who DO cheat, oh, I bet you feel SO great about yourself. You're hardcore on a crappily made MMORPG where the only people who know you are the people you play with. You're all so badass, I don't know what to do with myself. Give me a break. ::)
I've dealt with the same thing as Mewi, and probably you and every other admin who runs their own server who used to be a player. I didn't just pop up with an idea in my head to make a server, I made one because I got tired of playing corrupt ones where the staff plays favourites, changes rules to benefit themselves and themselves only, use donation money purely to fund their drug habits, whatever. I made my server because I knew it was the only way I could probably make a difference, rather than spend the same song and dance of calling out a corrupt staffer and probably getting banned over it.
My view is that the paranoia and extremist views(Rehael?!) are only going to add to the stress of it all. I have the fullest of trust in both my sub-Admins and my GM, they have given me reasons to do so. Maybe I'm just the exception of the "don't trust anybody" rule, but that's also because this isn't my first server as a member of staff, I know logs, but to top it off: I know my staff.
I check the logs as well, though it tells me the same thing every time: Nothing's going on. Hence my usage of trust. It also helps to know the people on your staff very well, too. I don't exactly want to hire a new staffer for that simple fact. We are all in constant contact via MSN, the Staff Discussion sub-forum of our server forum, PMs, E-mails, and we all have each other's phone numbers.
I guess it's just a major difference in opinion. I never saw a problem with playing a legit, nor do I see one with any of my staff(those that choose to do so. One refuses to), so I really fail to understand how some people can call those that do "bad admins" or "bad staff". Nor do I think that anybody who even remotely gets close to playing the game can be labeled corrupt, bad experience or not. It's that generalization that gives all of us a bad name.
Just do what i did... I made it so gms cant make any items. nor can they boost their stats or gain all skills. only number 99 can do that. and i will be the only one with an number 99 account. i made it so that there cant be any corruption. hahahah!
Corruption is also considered using @hide, @recall, and all other GM commands for your personal gain or for the gain of a certian group.....it isn't all about @item.
any player with more power then others can always, no matter what abuse it if they want too
If you take anything that gives your an unfair advantage over other players as corruption, just by being a mere gamemaster and play on your server makes you corrupted.
You have a big advantage over everyone else, knowledge.
Quote from: Brainstorm on Jul 10, 2008, 02:57 AM
If you take anything that gives your an unfair advantage over other players as corruption, just by being a mere gamemaster and play on your server makes you corrupted.
You have a big advantage over everyone else, knowledge.
what knowledge would a GM have during WoE if they were on a legit, that normal players wouldn't?
The complete, fragmented details of coding the items? Not that many people can really read coding that well, so they don't know every last detail for every last formula.
However, there's still more to it than that. Say, you installed a new quest. If you want to do it, it won't take you much effort. =P You know where everything is, you all ready know what you have to do, so on and so forth. It might seem minor, but, as Brainstorm said, this is simply assuming that any advantage the GMs have is considered a corruption quality.
At least, that's the only way I can interpret Brainstorm's statement. xD
Quote from: Brainstorm on Jul 10, 2008, 02:57 AM
If you take anything that gives your an unfair advantage over other players as corruption, just by being a mere gamemaster and play on your server makes you corrupted.
You have a big advantage over everyone else, knowledge.
I fail to see how this qualifies as corruption. Knowledge? Of what? RO? The server's configuration? NPC's? Quests? Players know just as much as a GM does in that aspect when said GM is on a legit. Especially if that GM is still hunting gear, questing for customs, buying and selling cards with their OWN (read: OWN, not generated) Zeny...
I guess that must make me the world's worst Admin. Sigh.
Basically you know more about how everything on your server works, than normal players. all the custom quests, helpful modifications, and such that a normal player would have to spend time finding.
Quote from: GM Thorin on Jul 10, 2008, 08:17 PM
Basically you know more about how everything on your server works, than normal players. all the custom quests, helpful modifications, and such that a normal player would have to spend time finding.
But isn't it the job of the GM, to share the knowledge of say ... quests, modifications, and such to their players? I know I spend a lot of time personally answering questions and currently am working on a wiki which should help players a lot more.
Quote from: GM Thorin on Jul 10, 2008, 08:17 PM
Basically you know more about how everything on your server works, than normal players. all the custom quests, helpful modifications, and such that a normal player would have to spend time finding.
Yeah, this thread is done in my eyes. Last reply. :X
Let he(or she) who is truly without fault cast the first stone.
You know, it's quite sad, really...I want nobody to take this the wrong way, but I'm really disheartened at how little faith some of you have in your own staff. It's also quite saddening to hear things like "trust no one".
A Ragnarok Online server is like a business. An employer(Admin) must trust his employees to get the job done. Ever have a boss who's looking constantly over your shoulder while you're on a project?
That's called micro-managing, and it's a glaring trait of the power-trippy types who end up going through employees faster than a gas station changes its prices. So, in the end, some of you speak about power-trippy, corrupt staffers, when in reality, you're just as power trippy, only frighteningly paranoid to boot.
Again, I'm probably the exception to the rule, but who wants to work with an Admin who's questioning everything they do every second of every day? I know I sure wouldn't. I don't know what you all have gone through with "Corruption" war stories, but I will say this much:
I was subjected to what some call the worst of the worst as far as corruption: FaithRO High Rate, back when Carnage was still Admin. If I came out of that and retained this mindset I still have to this day(trust, whatnot), how bad could it possibly have been for some of you?
Again, not trying to offend anybody here, just my attempt at making a final point.
I trust my staff unconditionally.
If i hear reports of things going down that shouldn't be (as you invariably will get reports of it) then I investigate, but not before.
Descent is absolutely correct about the micro-management conclusion, no-one likes to work in that environment.
At the end of the day, every GM ever makes mistakes initially, every GM perhaps does things they shouldn't at first. But these can and will be ironed out in time, usually by themselves.
I share the exact same opinion as Descent.
Furthermore, if you can't trust these people unconditionally, what are they doing on your staff in the first place?
Quote from: GM Faith on Jul 11, 2008, 09:06 AM
Furthermore, if you can't trust these people unconditionally, what are they doing on your staff in the first place?
It's not as hard as you think to put up a facade so admins (even intelligent ones) will think you'll make a decent GM. Hell if you wanted to, couldn't you totally fake your GM application? There is no paperwork in RO, no trail you can follow, no previous employer you can refer to.
Basically, what i'm saying is it is freakishly easy to gain the trust of someone over the net. When you cannot see someone, observe their rl actions, or look them in the eye, how can you judge them as people? The only thing we can go on is "oh this guy sounds nice & helps players".
Now some may decide to hire people they know in real life. I.E. Girlfriends, boyfriends, husband, wife, blah blah. This creates a whole new (and probably worse) biased system.
I think you get the picture.
Fact is, "Unconditional" trust is something you should be wary of. You are the admin of the server; the money comes out of your pocket. These GM's dont lose a
goddam thing if the server dies the next day. Now imagine yourself in their position. They have gm commands galore, the ability to create any item in the game, and an Admin that trusts them unconditionally. The temptation is enough to drive good GM's corrupt. Trust me. The second your GM decides that he/she doesnt like you, you now have a corrupt GM.
In the end i think one should only hire people one has known (but has not dated >.>) for years (IN REAL LIFE) to be your GM's. Only give GM power to your inseparable buddies. That, or give players the GM status,
in name only. Do not hand them incredible power over
your server.
EDIT: after reading the topic title...i realize this is incredibly off-topic... /no1
Well its a little different for us.
We don't hire based on application,We did once, and 2/3 of the GMs ended up being eintirely unsuitable so i would never advise hiring a GM based on an application.
Also, it sounds obvious, but never hire someone who asks to be a GM.
Anybody who thinks they are suitable to be a GM invariably isn't.
Our staff are drawn from people i have been observing playing and in the community for over 2 years, In that sort of situation its very easy to see who you do and don't want on the team. Furthermore, as people who have played on a Low-rate server for said number of years they very much have a physical and emotional attachment to the server and stand to lose every bit as much as you do.
I would, however, strongly disagree with hiring your friends, or friends of any other staff members.
Giving friends GM positions smacks of corruption in itself, and can lead to incredibly damaging rumours at the very least.
Some of it is down to luck, we're blessed with what i believe to be the strongest, most intelligent (for the most part) community i have seen on any server. Perhaps thats a little biased, but all I mean to say is that I have a lot of great people to work with.
That isn't to say that we don't have people who ask to be made a GM for whatever reason, but it is very easy to avoid them.
The bottom line is to hire people that you trust, Observe their actions over a long period of time and get a good enough idea that they are every bit as passionate about the server as you are.
Sorry for the wall of text, but i enjoy talking about this stuff. :P
Quote from: GM Faith on Jul 11, 2008, 12:53 PM
Well its a little different for us.
We don't hire based on application,We did once, and 2/3 of the GMs ended up being eintirely unsuitable so i would never advise hiring a GM based on an application.
wise.
Quote from: GM Faith on Jul 11, 2008, 12:53 PM
Sorry for the wall of text, but i enjoy talking about this stuff. :P
Me too, though i don't really know why >.o
I never agreed with GM Applications. Two major reasons:
1: You can never tell if that person is fabricating their entire resume or not. Even if they leave references, you don't know the servers they have been on, what they've done, or even if they were on staff.
2: This happened to me on a server I played on, which turned me off to the whole idea in general. The staff put up an application thread to apply for a GM. EVERYBODY posted in it...except me. I wrote my GM Resume and asked if it was fine if I e-mailed it directly to the admin. She(the admin) said it was fine, so I did. Upon reviewing it, they said I "didn't fit the mold" and instead recruited the admin's guildmate(on her "legit") to be a GM. This guy failed in every possible aspect of the job, the players hated him, and in the end, the server was brought to a close on this and the admin's other stupid decisions.
The second reason is personal, but I feel that GM Applications have too high of a chance to be lied about.
Yes GM's are entitled to privacy. Why wouldn't they? Believe it or not, people don't like to be bugged by PM's all the time. I am fine with helping people out. It starts to get a bit much when they start asking questions that can be solved by searching RMS such as where do quests start and end, where certain NPC's are, and other information found faster than being able to type directions to.
I guess it comes into play if they GM is using their account to give out items, or do some underhanded activity under the guise of being a regular player.
Just like most people have said, yes. GMs do deserve their privacy, and they do deserve their off time. I guess it's a little different when the person is never active on the GM, yes, that's a different story. Though, GMs that do do their job are entitled to privacy, and having fun as a player, too.
The only problem, which has already been pointed out, is GMs that decide to abuse the powers entrusted to them, and decide it's alright to give themselves items, or any advantage at all, but if you think about it, that can be easily stopped. I've been on plenty of servers where the dropping of items on a GM/storage/trading is all disabled according to your level.
But, yes. Privacy of a GM (or just the allowance of having your own legit account to be on), I must say, is a must. Though, I don't believe that entitles them to ignoring people when asking for help. On a GM or on a legit, everyone should be just as willing to help.
Quote from: Auroraâ,,¢ on Jul 11, 2008, 08:20 PM
On a GM or on a legit, everyone should be just as willing to help.
Greatest Truth Ever!
I agree, GMs should put their GM duties before playing thier legits.
Deleted
no bcuz if ur a gm you should be open... (>.>)
Quote from: Aragorn on Jul 12, 2008, 11:33 PM
no bcuz if ur a gm you should be open... (>.>)
Being too open can lead to bad things =\
Yeah, no GM should be completely open with any legit characters they have. I think it's already been stated here, but I've seen a lot of players try to falsify GMs cheating if they won a PvP match, or helping with the GM character if their guild managed to keep a castle during WoE.
In all honesty, a lot of harassment and bad could come from being too open; that doesn't make it bad, however. Just need to be careful.
Quote from: Cady on Jul 13, 2008, 01:08 AM
Quote from: Aragorn on Jul 12, 2008, 11:33 PM
no bcuz if ur a gm you should be open... (>.>)
Being too open can lead to bad things =\
...
Quote from: GM Faith on Jul 11, 2008, 12:53 PM
Anybody who thinks they are suitable to be a GM invariably isn't.
Just like anybody applying to med school shouldn't be a doctor and anyone studying law shouldn't be a lawyer amirite?
If people were prepared to spend several years and several thousand of their respective currency to go to GM school, I'd consider it.
I should reword it to:
Quote from: GM Faith on Jul 11, 2008, 12:53 PM
Anybody who thinks they are suitable to be a GM based on thier own merit and opinion invariably isn't.
Better?
I know a GM who was too open and, people harassed her about getting her phone number. So she quit.