Re-balanced and Re-purposed

[Mrew2]

Did my click-bait draw you in? Fantastic. Now, I know I will turn a lot of people away with this idea and I'm prepared for that but if you have an open mind, please read on.

I want to make a server with third jobs on pre-renewal. Now, I'll give you a second to immediately respond in whichever way you see fit. If you wish to click off, feel free.

Done? Good.

So, I want to change them from how they are now. From being the power houses they were to being more of opportune burst dps. Changing skills like Arrow Rain to have less AoE effect and a longer cooldown, (not after-cast delay, server creators know what I mean.) To change it to be a burst skill so that other skills, in party situations, are still just as relevant. Giving the ability some additional damage over others but not to the point of being overpowered. Adding both after-cast delay and cooldown together allows to create this interesting mechanic of fighting that I dubbed the burst mechanic, that not many skills make use of.

Now, as to not lose you in my own speak, after-cast delay is what pre-renewal was full of. You know when you revived someone and you couldn't use any skills for three seconds? Yeah, that's after-cast delay. After-cast delay is reduced by bragi. Cooldown is a skill specific delay. Something added in renewal, that most 3rd job skills have heavily integrated with them. But now, the difference I've made is actually reintroducing after-cast delay to skills with cooldown already. For example, Arrow Storm, has 0 seconds of after-cast delay and 3.2 seconds of cooldown, meaning the player cannot use Arrow Storm for 3.2 seconds but can use any other skill right away.

I want to introduce that after-cast delay as a more of a balancing factor and also a party mechanic. With how I tweaked Arrow Storm, lessening the damage from 1800% to 700%, 5 second after-cast delay and 5 second cooldown; it creates this new system of where your movements have more weight outside of parties, making party play more encouraged. Because of the damage reduction, you won't have power house rangers one shotting enemies but allows for people to better use their abilities in party play where bragi actually helps 3rd jobs. Now, in party situations, a ranger can arrow storm to start off with but, because of the bragi, now they can also double strafe, sharp shoot, etc. Now it's about working together or having a bragi slave.

I've done this to several 3rd job classes so far. I've only started this project a few days ago but I want to know, is this something that interests people and if so or if not, please let me know why. I'd love to hear feedback and suggestions.

[Wyvern]

I think it's an interesting idea considering how op 3rd jobs are compared to other jobs/mobs, and helps with partying. I have not fully played a 3rd jobs renewal server though, but I do hear things.

[snowblind]

Not interested because 3rd jobs are damn ugly

[Mrew2]

Hey, so I wanted to give people an idea of what I meant and made a video. I'm sorry it's not amazing but my head hurts and I'm really nauseous but I wanted to get something out there for you guys to see. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvQKg4y0A8E

The first part I showed the "standard" way that players would kill with Rangers using Arrow Storm and then I showed my new party way with the changes I mentioned. Arrow Storm is not the only skill effected in rangers. I have a list of changed I've made for the class.

Ranger:
      Aimed bolt: Now has a 5 second after-cast delay. (Affected by Bragi/Magic Strings) No cooldown. (Unaffected by Bragi/Magic Strings) Damage reduced from 1000% to 400%. Multi-hit mechanic unaffected.
      Arrow Storm: Now has a 5 second after-cast delay. 5 second cooldown. Damage reduced from 1800% to 700%.
      Warg Dash: Damage reduced from 200% to 100%.
      Warg Strike: Now has a 2 second after-cast delay. No cooldown. Damage reduced from 1000% to 300%.
      Warg Bite: Now has a 3 second after-cast delay. Retained cooldown of 12 seconds. Damage reduced from 1500% to 500%.
      Sensitive Keen: Retained after-cast delay of 3 seconds. Damage reduced from 350% to 150%.
      Cluster Bomb: Increased duration to 30 seconds.
      Firing Trap/Ice Bound Trap: Now has a 1 second after-cast delay. 1 second cooldown.
      Unlimit: Now has a 5 second cast time unreduced by anything. Reduced effect from 50% per level to 50% more ranged damage on all levels. Level now increases duration, 60 second at max from 10:20:30:40 to 60 at 5.
      All other skills are unaffected.

Btw, I'm sorry for the click and the keyboard and the cat noises you may here in the video. I didn't realize it would take the audio from my headset. I can put a better video tomorrow when I'm feeling better.

[Blinzer]

Did my click-bait draw you in? Fantastic. Now, I know I will turn a lot of people away with this idea and I'm prepared for that but if you have an open mind, please read on.

I want to make a server with third jobs on pre-renewal. Now, I'll give you a second to immediately respond in whichever way you see fit. If you wish to click off, feel free.

Done? Good.

So, I want to change them from how they are now. From being the power houses they were to being more of opportune burst dps. Changing skills like Arrow Rain to have less AoE effect and a longer cooldown, (not after-cast delay, server creators know what I mean.) To change it to be a burst skill so that other skills, in party situations, are still just as relevant. Giving the ability some additional damage over others but not to the point of being overpowered. Adding both after-cast delay and cooldown together allows to create this interesting mechanic of fighting that I dubbed the burst mechanic, that not many skills make use of.

Now, as to not lose you in my own speak, after-cast delay is what pre-renewal was full of. You know when you revived someone and you couldn't use any skills for three seconds? Yeah, that's after-cast delay. After-cast delay is reduced by bragi. Cooldown is a skill specific delay. Something added in renewal, that most 3rd job skills have heavily integrated with them. But now, the difference I've made is actually reintroducing after-cast delay to skills with cooldown already. For example, Arrow Storm, has 0 seconds of after-cast delay and 3.2 seconds of cooldown, meaning the player cannot use Arrow Storm for 3.2 seconds but can use any other skill right away.

I want to introduce that after-cast delay as a more of a balancing factor and also a party mechanic. With how I tweaked Arrow Storm, lessening the damage from 1800% to 700%, 5 second after-cast delay and 5 second cooldown; it creates this new system of where your movements have more weight outside of parties, making party play more encouraged. Because of the damage reduction, you won't have power house rangers one shotting enemies but allows for people to better use their abilities in party play where bragi actually helps 3rd jobs. Now, in party situations, a ranger can arrow storm to start off with but, because of the bragi, now they can also double strafe, sharp shoot, etc. Now it's about working together or having a bragi slave.

I've done this to several 3rd job classes so far. I've only started this project a few days ago but I want to know, is this something that interests people and if so or if not, please let me know why. I'd love to hear feedback and suggestions.

I just want to let you know that aftercast delay plays a huge factor in making ragnarok unique and balanced, so before you touch it make sure you have a very good plan.


If you make too many skills not have aftercast delay and have cooldowns instead, you get a bunch of characters spamming different skills while standing still instead of a bunch of characters spamming the same skills while standing still. It makes no difference, and probably ends up dumbing down the game to a circus juggle rather than enhancing it.

You need to balance the skills to make sure it's important and more dangerous to use different skills in different parts of a fight, and that is not an easy task for a game which, in its vanilla form, is based off of spamming the same skill with no delay or cooldown. However, it is possible. It's good that you are taking it upon yourself to change third classes to reflect the mechanics which make ragnarok good, realizing that the field of play is an important factor to respect and build around. This is something that third jobs do not do.

[Mrew2]

I just want to let you know that aftercast delay plays a huge factor in making ragnarok unique and balanced, so before you touch it make sure you have a very good plan.


If you make too many skills not have aftercast delay and have cooldowns instead, you get a bunch of characters spamming different skills while standing still instead of a bunch of characters spamming the same skills while standing still. It makes no difference, and probably ends up dumbing down the game to a circus juggle rather than enhancing it.

You need to balance the skills to make sure it's important and more dangerous to use different skills in different parts of a fight, and that is not an easy task for a game which, in its vanilla form, is based off of spamming the same skill with no delay or cooldown.

Skills usually have the same after-cast delay as they do cooldown. The cooldown is just to make sure that they don't just spam the 3rd job skills. Because 3rd job is higher than trans, the skills have to be more powerful but because of how they're set up, people would rather spam them and forget the old skills. At least with the cooldown, as well as aftercast delay, the old skills are still useful because of how they are different.

Someone with bragi can't spam arrow storm because it has a 5 second after-cast delay, as well as a 5 second cooldown. So, without bragi, you're waiting 5 seconds to use your next skill, but with bragi, you can still use double straffing or sharp shooting while your arrow storm is on cooldown. Makes for a different kind of system when partying than when soloing. So people have burst skills instead of just more spamming skills.

[Blinzer]

Skills usually have the same after-cast delay as they do cooldown. The cooldown is just to make sure that they don't just spam the 3rd job skills. Because 3rd job is higher than trans, the skills have to be more powerful but because of how they're set up, people would rather spam them and forget the old skills. At least with the cooldown, as well as aftercast delay, the old skills are still useful because of how they are different.

Someone with bragi can't spam arrow storm because it has a 5 second after-cast delay, as well as a 5 second cooldown. So, without bragi, you're waiting 5 seconds to use your next skill, but with bragi, you can still use double straffing or sharp shooting while your arrow storm is on cooldown. Makes for a different kind of system when partying than when soloing. So people have burst skills instead of just more spamming skills.

There are more ways to make a skill powerful than just increasing the damage ratios. Gravity has a bad tendency of doing this type of design, and generally it reveals itself to be irrelevant and flawed. If you look at the progression of monsters throughout the years, they have become more and more powerful up to the point where they are literally untankable under normal conditions. But does anybody care that Naght Seiger has 32000 attack, or satan morroc has 16000 atk? What about new world monsters? These are absolutely ridiculous numbers, and no player expects or should be expected to be able to tank these monsters. These details pass unnoticed only because the nature of ragnarok is to kite everything you see for your dear life, and every competitive strategy involves completely kiting in one way or another. These big numbers are supposedly there to represent how strong the monster is, but in reality end up being insignificant factors for how the game plays out. You're always doing the same action no matter how buffed up the monster in front of you is.

The same case is for skills, but because third jobs affect the PvP aspect of the game as well, it's no surprise that it completely turned the game upside down. Adding ridiculous ratios to their skills to compensate for their lack of skill design is typical of someone who is lazy. The focus of making a strong skill should be the utility it provides in a situation, not how much damage it does. You could easily argue that ragnarok, unlike other games, is highly based off of the fact that it is a damage centered world; but when you use damage as a supplement for good game design, you are inevitably creating your own demise. Oddly enough, third jobs completely ruined the game.

It's not easy to think of an effect a skill can have which will be well designed, useful, and fair all in one shot. By no means am I saying it is; but if you want to change third job skills, I would highly recommend doing some brainstorming to create new ideas for skills which you could potentially substitute with already existing skills to enhance the game.


As for what you said on arrow storm, I believe to have already assessed that in my first post.

If you make too many skills not have aftercast delay and have cooldowns instead, you get a bunch of characters spamming different skills while standing still instead of a bunch of characters spamming the same skills while standing still. It makes no difference, and probably ends up dumbing down the game to a circus juggle rather than enhancing it.

When you create a scenario you have to always account as if the factors are present. In this case, we assume bragi is here and see what the real difference is, evaluating the potential bad and good outcomes that may emerge. As you clarified, it's very clear this type of change would have a positive impact on party play. Now you have to consider the impact on the many other aspects of the game it may have.

[PlayRagnaOnline]

IMO, pre-re is decent but classic is the best. There were no OP stuff nor anything unbalanced. Everything was about partying up and building a good community with guildies.