Started by OldPoring, Jun 20, 2022, 01:43 PM
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Quote from: OldPoring on Jun 24, 2022, 06:23 PMIf you're talking about OriginsRO, then it was the most lively server I knew. in addition, it was is European, for me ping from the USA is a little frustrating. About 800 players were displayed on the server, so about 400-500 real persons, I usually played no more than 3 chars at the same time, in auto follow with priest and hunter or priest only for warp and buff/heal, sage waited in place for endow,and it died only because of the Gravity attack (or by another decision of their administration), but definitely not because it was unpopular!You can even say the opposite - OriginsRO could never have become so popular if it had forbidden a multi client ))I almost suggested it. Two windows without any restrictions on one IP. This is convenient at least for transferring money and things between merchants without mail. Yes, if there is no NPC healer on the server, it's just stupid to forbid multi client, anyway, ro nerds will make themselves a priest and you will not be able to do anything about it. Make an automatic temporary ban of the character when opening the third window. And programmatically disable auto-following, if possible - then it will be an equivalent position for everyone on the server and the cheaters will not have an advantage over "honest fools".----------------------English is not my language, when I created this, it was more correct not "to ban", but not "to forbid".Maybe the moderator can replace the "ban" in the topic name with a "forbid"?it is impossible to forbid what can be used easy. Old ro players know all the tricks.
Quote from: distilled1 on Jun 20, 2022, 11:55 PMWow. Time to rip into Xellie I guess. What a load of crap.No one said you had to socialize 24/7. Just when you want the most efficient party you should have to because it's a MMORPG and meant to be a social genre.You mean the way the game was meant to be originally? Wow. You realize that if a group of individuals is required to make the best potions, because people can't multi-client, everyone is still on the same playing field, right? There's nothing wrong with the best potions being more difficult to make than they would be from a spoiled multi-clienter's perspective. Just means they'll be used more sparingly by everyone.Sure you do. The reality is that players who have lost that much interest in RO aren't going to jump on at a moment's notice, every 30 minutes, to warp or endow others. They'll be playing something or doing another hobby they are actually interested in. Nice bad faith argument.Besides, can still do that without multi-clienting by switching to your priest/sage, or having a friend switch to their priest/sage for you. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with multi-clienting. If you're against people abusing that aspect of the game, you should be advocating for literally one character per IP address (I'd be down with that personally).Not the case. I've seen plenty of older players prefer partying when they don't feel the need to multi-clienting just to be on par. It's very liberating and fun.Only when you can multi-client. No one is soloing endless tower and sealed shrine. No one is hunting any MVP that can use Earthquake to 1 shot them except maybe an Asura spamming monk, but that's actually a map/class design issue allowing them to portal in, spam the skill, then tp away. Not a multi-client issue.So only priests should be able to experience fun parties? A social game mechanic the game was built around? Oh yeah cool multi-player game philosophy. "Hey let's play some D&D but every class has to solo except if you duo with a Cleric." Another bad faith argument from a priest no less.Well again, there's your problem. You're playing the wrong game genre then aren't you? You don't have to socialize "24/7". You can go chill, craft, quest, spam dead branches, etc, do your own thing while in the game but doing the more difficult content and leveling to 99 should require partying in a good MMORPG.Oh right cause the internet isn't yet tired of hearing Xellie fluff up her "mad priesting skills". I think you should go make another obvious priest guide to show us all the things we totally wouldn't have been able to figure out.It's definitely one of the major flaws. The original game had a subscription fee per account for a good reason.It's a good idea to limit party exp boosts to unique players, yes, but it doesn't need to completely replace multi-clienting, because many other problems arise when people can multi-client. The exp boosts work great alongside banning multi-clienting.Yeah partying has some issues in RO, but banning multi-clienting helps to encourage people to play together, literally alleviating one of the most prominent issues in most RO servers where people don't play together because it's more efficient to solo with yourself. What is "lazy and narrowminded" about that? Do you not understand this very basic player psychology?You probably should. You're an anti-social person playing a social video game genre and saying you don't enjoy socializing, and assuming no one else wants to.You couldn't be more wrong about many of your bad faith arguments.
Quote from: Insomnia2000 on Jun 21, 2022, 09:17 AM[/list]Why are these things things to begin with? Is it really socializing/partying if a sage is active in your party performing a singular endow on you once every 30 minutes? No, it isn't. It's no wonder endows are multi-cliented. Instead of saying "Endows are okay as long as you have a legitimate sage that comes into contact with you once every 30 minutes, but not okay if you're logging on a second character once every 30 minutes." We should be saying "something is not correct with the way endows work, what can we do to address it?"Either you dislike the way that the above functions and put some effort and thought into fixing it or you are okay with the above and leave it alone. Banning multi-client is the worst of both worlds: leaving a broken mechanic in place and banning players who try to make the broken mechanic not so crappy to deal with.
Quote from: Xellie on Jun 27, 2022, 01:19 AMI'll stand by the meat of what I was pointing out. RO is designed in ways that it blows multiclienting into being almost necessary, and if you don't, it moves into unfun mechanics. Linkers, sage endows, there's some other class that usually comes to mind, I can't think what it oh yeah marionette control good fun gameplay amazingly engaging much button pressing wow.Speaking of brewing, material requirements being almost doubled by not using MC (anyone wanna MC for me overnight?) + lack of buffs pulls players into hunting over creation or hunting over partying. Because playing without materials isn't actually that fun. Nobody is gonna party to hunt... stems? It's the consumption of time into grinding things on non viable party maps that are the biggest killer IMO. Multiclienting, for the information of those that don't know, was made legal very, very early on in the game's life. I can remember the exact patch, because I had lobbied the iRO produce the week before to allow it, because not multiclienting was leading to people editing their clients and finding worse things like... true sight edits. It was before trans. (I'm here with my laptop dual clienting, these people are finding cheats, this is dumb, please end it)Regardless of the reasoning of them not being able to prevent cheats (and a valid reason since private servers can) the point here is purely that:it was allowed VERY early onand then a lot of the later game was either built to use that fact (paying for 2 subs for more $$$)or issues that should have been fixed in a single player environment were not fixed.Unless these things are addressed in concerns about multiclient, there's no reason to regard it as a good thing to ban them. People can't talk about Gravity's intentions unless having actually sat around a table with them (I have - yes this is a weird flex - and sometimes they were clueless about how the game is played anyway) and even then, some skills and classes make you question the very concept of single client play anyway. I'd love to see the game altered to provide a solo client experience that is enjoyable, and viable. But I never see mention of any fixes to any of the things raised - and perhaps at that point the game would be altered so far, it wouldn't be the vanilla experience people think early RO was.
Quote from: Playtester on Jun 27, 2022, 01:34 PMXellie, I want to point out that on official servers no multi-clienting was mostly enforced by the game being P2P. Not many people could afford to pay more than $15 a month to play a game, and thus most people didn't multiclient and there were many many people looking for priests to party with.
Quote from: Xellie on Jun 27, 2022, 01:00 PMI'm not gonna say it to be mean, but there's a reason I don't play Oath. And that is because I hate being forced into social interaction"But why are you playing an MMO then?"I didn't say no interaction! Anyway, I like that you're solving some of the things - but I'd like to know how me, someone who likes to play assassin, is going to be wanted in parties without playing a mobber that any class can do that. Some classes are just literally designed to play alone. They get hit by a huge disparity or left behind in comparison to groups (that's the choice of playing alone, but takes the class out of being wanted). There's also... what do you do when new/low level players/new char players dry up? People who are stuck without parties in the "unfun" section of the game (I don't find much below around level 85 to be fun because of burnout I guess). There are a lot of things that multiclienting solve that I just wanna see answers to.Also I'm 100% accepting that it's a playstyle people might like or prefer. I don't really nostalgia seek for that era, I've done kicking rocks so I can kick bigger rocks to death, multiple times, on 1x without multi. I've never made a b**** slave priest. I just level things solo until I reach engaging party level (thana/bio/nid/thor) but anything before that (to party) is boring af to me. (Fyi soloing to me really is just running my HP in town for warps and endowing myself, I never do the autofollow train because walking is frustrating and boring to me. Idk how the multi client train people do it. I'd be bored in 3 mins and I find it... inefficient.) tbh, it gets dull after a while - hence each to their own. That is the point, right? But I'll full stand my ground against anyone who says multiclient is the reason partying dies. Cuz it's not. There's a plethora of issues that cause that to happen and blaming multiclients is lazy and poorly thought out. (btw honest opinion on the alchemist plat skill - that's great but people who play other classes need to take them materials to get their items made too. So unless they make an alche (time drain) they will drain time on mats. Just a thought. It's a good direction you're going in tho )
Quote from: Playtester on Jun 27, 2022, 01:34 PMXellie, I want to point out that on official servers no multi-clienting was mostly enforced by the game being P2P. Not many people could afford to pay more than $15 a month to play a game, and thus most people didn't multiclient and there were many many people looking for priests to party with.Assassin are good mobbers in parties because they have high flee and thus are not stopped when attacked most of the time. They can also take the role of tank in most regions.Also a server with mostly party-loving players usually wouldn't mind even partying up with new players. If there's no multiclienting, you can also remove some restrictions such as Exp share limit which makes it even easier to party (this is what I'd do if I made a server, keep the rates at 1x but Exp Share without limit, but admittedly I didn't see any other server do that yet).But as said this does not depend so much on if multi-clienting is allowed or not, but rather on how competitive a server is. No competition means that all players just play for fun. And it can be fun to party up with a new player and show him around. Or just go to some easier regions where you need the drops in (such as hunting Stems as you mentioned).I feel like many RO players are just purely competitive and never really experience how it is like to just party for fun.
Quote from: Sairek Ceareste on Jun 27, 2022, 04:18 PMOn official servers, being able to multi-client back in the subscription model was basically pay to win. The more money you had to spend, the more advantage you had. If the game was designed for that, well, that kinda sucks, because not everyone can afford that. Kind of like why current official RO is garbage. You aren't able to get the full experience if you're not ripping out your credit card; and just being able to brute force your way through everything isn't very rewarding in my opinion, either.
Quote from: Styx on Jun 28, 2022, 03:39 PMYou should do serious research also. When exactly did Gravity start to ask a payment to play this game in a way it really made a difference direction P2P or P2W? You will learn it was quite possible to have mutliple accounts for free for many, many years. Then developpers were just busy just programming and offering services to attract players. Here is the problem, they never designed it in a way for just using a single account. That would even be ridiculous seen the differences and ability's certain classes have. That was also a major concern from developpers, they monitored how many players did choose a certain main class and they tried to put influence on those numbers getting it more equal by programming the game.The money machine came much, much later.So, whatever the reason to force using just one account, which is just an idea to try, maybe brilliant, maybe not but no way the source for it can be that Gravity did have P2P or P2W system from scratch. They didn't and that happened many, many years later.For instance. as an investor I wouldn't even consider to invest a dime in such an idea, because it is excluding potential players and the idea is to attract players, any player. Not all investors want to be super rich in no time at all, in fact most will like a more steady idea with a long future and keeping options open as much as possible.Having said that, the official Ragnarok is currently based in Russia these days? How long will that sustain?Maybe it is time to put pressure and crowd funding could very well make it possible to snatch that license, and meanwhile secure a license for a spin-off project that offers pre-renewal, even for free. Why not? Young players now eventually will in majority earn enough money for official Renewal and maybe it even could learn Gravity to drop the agressive P2W model.If you would think I am supporting Xellie, I am not! In fact I do believe we don't even like each other that much because of the different approaches we have but we do share a very vital thing. We both like this game. Over the decades, I am pretty sure we did manage to team up in some sort of party on occasion and beat the s*** out of most. Because there is no discussion about what would be efficient, just do your job in that situation. Then I have more eye for the players fooling around in circles and somehow still like to play the game. Even on Origins, such players were massive around 2021. Most were playing with max 3 accounts but there was no real future for them in development, outplayed by organized groups and the Origins system but still they never did give up anyway because they just liked the game but with just one account possible, I doubt they will ever join such a server.If you have a headache, shoot your head off, problem solved. It's just a tunnel vision, showing the lack of imagination and ability for solutions, to my opinion.
Quote from: Sairek Ceareste on Jun 28, 2022, 04:53 PMBack then if you had low end hardware that couldn't run more client at once, and someone else did, and had multiple computers, therefore, they could run more clients then you, then is that not having an advantage? Doesn't matter if the company is receiving the money or not.Why should someone be able to farm six times better than someone else just because they have multiple computers who can run the game? Back in 2007, I could run two instances of the game at a good choppy 20 FPS -- sometimes. Any more than two and it was pretty much unplayable. This meant any server that allowed multi-clienting put me at a huge disadvantage.Now, this isn't usually an issue now because the game is 20 years old, but while it is more rare, people still have weaker hardware that can't run multiple instances of the game well, whether they are only able to afford work laptops or what-have-you. Someone's potential in game shouldn't be limited by their financial situation in my opinion; or hell, just doesn't want to run as many characters physically possible, because the less you use, the more of a disadvantage you are putting yourself in. I don't want to farm on two or three characters in separate parties at once whilst juggling a dozen clients for the maximum gains to be "competitive". That sounds far more stressful than just... y'know, finding a party to me.Again though, it's kind of moot. There's plenty of servers that allow multi-clienting. Some people like that, some people don't. Arguing semantics about it is like arguing which color is the best, or what type of music genre is the best, or what is the best Final Fantasy.