Do u think GM's should have their own WOE guild?

[Descent]

This topic is more about the gm being a guild leader of a woe guild, which is icky because leading a guild takes time and effort, not to mention woe is very competitive.

As for gm playing with legit altogether I've always been for it, as long as they are professional. By being inside the community you really get a feel of the beat of the server, you know your player base, you can find bugs if any. Getting to know the players can help a lot when comes the time to choose a new gm too. Overall I see mostly advantages to being amongst the players, you know what's going on from the inside, not just from a GM's point of view, if you find that something you've added is too good or too bad you can adjust it. etc.

Pandora, would you say that the gms should be allowed to tell people that they are in fact a GM? or they should try to keep it a secret? if a secret...what happens when people find out?

It's a delicate matter and both 'hidden' and 'public' name of the GM's legits displayed have their pros and cons.

I wanted mine to be secret, but people found out  eventually and now it's quite public. Sucked at first because I liked being seen as only myself, but it is what it is and I live with it, I got used to it by now.

I say it's better if players don't know who the GMs are, but on the other hand being upfront and honest about it can be good too, as long as it's not for fame that your GM wants to tell the whole server who they are.

Being part of a woe guild (different from being the guild leader) is icky but doable, half of my staff don't care for woe nor pvp (which is good), they are not entangled in the guild rivalries, however I don't prevent any of my GMs to woe on their legit if they want to, and I woe myself as well, I like woe (but oddly I strongly dislike pvp).

See, this statement couldn't have any more truth to it.

In the end, legit usage comes down to the Admin and how they check the logs. I used to check my logs DAILY when my staff started their legits, but now I couldn't be more proud of them: not ONE thing they have has been obtained by illegal means(myself included, my 216 LK's gear is all hunted, everything she has, is completely obtainable by any other player, up to and including player-level trading). Thankfully, nobody(if very few who may have figured it out) knows my legits(and their classes), and those that do respect the fact that I do NOT want to be asked server-related questions when I'm on one. Of course, if I see somebody in @main asking for a GM, I drop everything and jump on Descent(my Admin character) to give them support. Nine times out of ten, I don't end up going back on the legit until well after the problem has been solved.

As for a WoE Guild, I have to also stand by Pandora's sentiment(and that of other users in this thread), it's a touchy subject and for the most part, it should be avoided at all costs. If competition is at its lowest, I will jump in on my legit Sin X and poke some Emperiums, but I don't recruit players to the guild, nor do I recruit other staffers.

As for a player having to(or in some cases, being forced) to disband a WoE guild upon staff membership, that's a tricky subject as well. Though I do understand Zairik's reasons for doing so: Scythe is one of the best SHR servers out there in terms of ratings and player counts. He can't exactly afford to take any risks whatsoever, it's the mark of a smart Admin.

[Mamimi]

Having a GM's legit character to be in a guild makes matters even worse... you end up having players saying or calling out cheat.

I've said this once, and I'll say it again. If you can't trust your admin to watch the logs and trust your GMs to be legit, then you should find another server. :x

Lets assume the following.
Admin monitor GM logs periodically.
A GM is leading his first WOE guild. A nice, honest and respectable guy. The GM is seasoned enough to know the rules. During his first WOE, 5 minute before WOE ends, he noticed all his EDP supply has been depleted. Tried buying from vendors, could not find any. Asked around... no other members had any. Tick Tick Tick... With all the pressure of wanting to have a good start for his guild (i.e. able to secure a castle on its first WOE day) and adrenaline pumping;  he got caught up in the moment - and decided to log on his GM character spawn 1 EDP, transfer it to his legit character with the intention of replacing the EDP back to his GM character the moment after WOE. He then continues to rush into WOE, and managed to do a last minute emp break and secured a castle for his guild. His guildies was cheering him on... and the GM left on his legit character to gather some ingredients to hastily make an EDP to return back to his GM character as intended.

Scenario A
After WOE, some of his members went to PVP,... one was full of pride and wanted to show off a bit... he accidentally slipped out that his Guild leader spawn an EDP using his GM character. Angry players started posting on forum and Admin came to know about it.

Scenario B
A week later, Admin looked at GM log, noticed a spawn during WOE time. Further investigation revealed that it was replaced right after WOE. Nobody else knows about it expect the Admin. Nobody might remember that WOE, since a week has passed.

The real questions to ask yourself
1. Do you believe that no matter what the Admin chooses to do, harm will be done to the reputation of the GM Team and the server? Of course in Scenario B, the Admin could opt for a cover-up, but if discovered later, would mean a bigger problem.
2. Could your server recover from this blow?
3. Would you risk it?

The GM knows it was wrong to do what he did. He was not acting himself when he WOEing, he got caught up in the moment. He was a WOE Guild Leader with the intention to win. He got desperate. And he strongly belives if he replace the EDP later, it will not be a big deal. It's just an EDP after all.

- If GM is nice, honest, and respectable, he wouldn't @item himself EDP. He be either fired or put on hiatus, the castle would go back to whoever had it before he broke the emp.
- Most GMs [i hope] keep their legit and their GM separate in all counts, he shouldn't of even thought about using his GM for non-legitimate uses.
- Ewww, an EDP vender? :x

[Pandora]

In bleu's situation I think the admin should strongly sanction his GM (if not outright remove his gm status), I know it's 'just an edp' but it starts small and can escalate fast. Suggestion is also not to give @item to your new gms, start them with minimal power.

On my server a level 20 GM can't even drop or trade items, let alone make them, he can't storage (there is a setting you can use for that in eAthena and under a certain level gms they can't give anything to any players), can't create monsters either. Basically he can broadcast, do support, bot checks, and that's about it. Once they are more used to GMing and have proven trustworthy they go up to level 40 gm and now they can trade/storage/drop/vend, but they still don't have @item yet. We have a npc that the gm can use for handing out prizes to player (for event purpose).

@commands logs need to be checked, picklogs need to be checked (that includes trades), and in our server case the prize giver npc logs needs checked as well. If you check your GM carefully and let your players know, they are re-assumed that they can fully trust them.

[Poki]

I do agree, and I must say, it really depends on the admin.  Okay, so I do understand that GMs should be allowed to have legit characters, but the best course of action that I would believe a great admin should do is:

- Hire GMs that aren't playing the server already
- Check logs daily
- Have the GMs and the admin themselves to vouch they will not have a legit character

I honestly believe it's the better way to go and show that you're 100% dedicated to the server, and won't even bother playing on it just because you're the GM.  This way, there's hardly any suspicion and there's no proof that they are playing. Besides, there's plenty of fun being a GM.

What sucks is if players that know the GMs who have legit characters become jealous and grumpy over WoE.  It sucks knowing that the admin or a GM of the server is completely obliterating you in both PvP and WoE. Anyhow... I'm speaking from a player's point of view, not as a GM because I do personally want to play a server with a legit character where I am also a GM, however, as a player, there are few things that I am against.

To be more specific of what type of player I'm viewing this topic of, would be the competitive type. D:

"I've said this once, and I'll say it again. If you can't trust your admin to watch the logs and trust your GMs to be legit, then you should find another server. :x"

Ermm, trust is rather hard when proof isn't given.  I suppose you're right though, it's players like me that usually end up leaving because of responses like that, haha.  Kinda sucks when the admin isn't willing to make us players feel comfortable in the server Whar is the love?

[Pandora]

- Hire GMs that aren't playing the server already

Thing is, an outsider doesn't know the ins and outs and subtilities of your server, he doesn't know the quests, the playerbase, the guild friendship and rivalries, the trouble makers their previous actions and punishment, the history of the server, etc. Trust is also harder to achieve with a perfect stranger that you just recruit with an ad here or elsewhere. I like to recruit gm from the player base, those who've shown they like to help others, can express themselves well, and show overall potential for future gms.

[Poki]

True and true.  However!  There's plenty of people out there who are willing to commit into learning the specific details of a server.  It doesn't take long for one to understand the server and get to know players and of course, it takes professionalism as a GM to get along with others who've been playing for a while.

I'm sure if you were dedicated in to making a server successful as a GM who has just begun their adventures in the server, it would take a while, but it won't be difficult to learn who the trouble makers are, the rivalries, the quests, and getting trust from the players.  Or at the very least... It doesn't appeal to me to be that difficult seeing as I've been through it.

Also, if you personally are the type of admin who would like to be a good friendship with your "future GM", give the GM low powers and see how dedicated he/she is.  Learn about them, ask them questions, see if they fit in well! It's all part of building that trust , and hey, new GMs who haven't been in the server might be awesome as prove to be of worth and could possibly help the server a lot.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with hiring GMs that are playing the server.  The only reason I've posted that bit was because it's better off if you didn't.  I wouldn't want them to give up their hard work for their legit character just to be a GM in the server. Fact is, they'll probably be on their legit character more than their GM character.

It appeals to new players when they see an active GM who's willing to improve their game play in the server instead of having to learn it the hard way that certain GMs were on their legit characters the entire time.  Some players might be thrown off from the fact that a player is walking around with signs that tell them they are a GM.

If you were to keep as many players in the server, those would be the best course of actions to take.  I must say though, there are other ways such as your thought and ways and there's nothing wrong with it.

Basically, I've already agreed that a GM having a woe guild isn't wrong or they shouldn't, it's just not the best action that I would expect.

[Pandora]

I understand your point and respect it.

Actually, in an ideal world GMs would probably not woe on their legit, that keeps away corruption rumors, most of it at least. In an ideal world staff would be 100% professional and ideally paid for the job they do because they work hard ^_^

[Brian]

I personally think they should not because players will think that the server is corrupted.

[laoganma]

exactly whats happening to Noob Fury RO, i made topic about it please search, server Admin created a guild and he has 2 chief GMs in it.

plenty of "hidden" corruptions going on, dare to speak up they will simply ban u and close the topic, u post a link to show evidence they will delete it thus the "clean" looking forum.

i dont mind GMs play woe just dont take it too personal, they lost 1 (one) castle one GM turned GvG on in a city and kill the competitor guild when they r handing out salaries.

[Magnus]

Do u think GM's should have their own WOE guild?

That will be the most stpdst decision if ever a server really implemented it. I mean, wth? GM's participating in WOE's instead of advertising, fixing and supporting server issues? That will be a big NO.

[Hutchy]

Coming from a server where the staff WoEs, it causes a LOT of problems, and a LOT of suspicion.

[Pheonix]

HELL NO! Maybe on their Legit But not as their GM character think of the items and things they can get it would be VERY unfair people would complain if that happened on my server id leave that is not good at all gms could easily kill anyone they wanted T_T my answer is no way!

[Hutchy]

HELL NO! Maybe on their Legit But not as their GM character think of the items and things they can get it would be VERY unfair people would complain if that happened on my server id leave that is not good at all gms could easily kill anyone they wanted T_T my answer is no way!

Even on the legit, people will inevitably start throwing around corruption accusations.

[chenn]

just leave the server if u find admins on one side of woe, they could have some legits with "funny" stats u can never proof it, u show screenshots/videos they can easily counter it with "edited"

im speaking from experience (3 years RO), if u got some extra money and thinkin about "donating", trust me, just play iRO.

so yeah its a big NO

[Hallos]

I think it's perfectly fine. I've seen it on a lot of servers and none of them ever had accusations made against them, except by these losers on nfRO. But on the other servers I have joined, there have never been complaints made against the GMs for corruption in WoE guilds. It really just depends on how mature, or immature, your players are. But I think it should be allowed.