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Author Topic: Classic and pre-renewal close-to-official servers not so official after all  (Read 9193 times)

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Offline Playtester

You know what really grinds my gears?

There are quite some servers that claim they are close-to-official (some even say 100% official) and they might be on some classic episode before episode 10.

You know the first thing I do? Check Wolf and Spore in their database, because as we all know (apparently not), in episode 10, Gravity "unbalanced" the game by giving very few monsters a huge exp boost, turning a fairly well balanced game with all maps about similar good exp to a game where you really just go to the same maps leveling up all the time. And so far, every single server I've checked used the episode 13.1 stats of Wolf and Spore (and all other mobs that were changed in episode 10, there were about 20 changed).

For reference, before episode 10, Wolf had 405 HP and gave 45/32 EXP. Spore had 327 HP and gave 22/17 EXP.

After the "unbalance update", Wolf got 919 HP and gives 329/199 EXP. Spore got 510 HP and gives 66/108 EXP. Notably the damage was not increased (except slight increase of Spore's max atk). Their HP/EXP ratio turned into that of endgame content monsters, while they remained as weak as starter monsters. Gravity even put tons of both together on a single map. Everybody now just levels up on this one map all the time (and bots love it too).

Servers have neglected to revert this change for so long now, that now everybody thinks RO has always been unbalanced. So even if I visit the website of an actual customized server, I get haunted by this because the server owner would write something like "Official servers were never really balanced, only few maps were viable to visit".

tl;dr
If you are a server owner making a classic server and actually claim it is a 100% official experience, then please also provide 100% official monster stats.

(For those too lazy to do research: https://rathena.org/board/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=13212)

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Offline distilled1

Good point, Playtester!
I agree. Exploration and adventure of Ragnarok Online's entire world should be desired, and not just a few maps here and there.
I certainly was not aware of this unbalanced update you described, and as you suggest, apparently not many are.

I've just assumed Ragnarok Online was always this unbalanced, and left it at that.
I've sought other games when desiring more balance, such as Dungeons and Dragons or whatever else, and returned to Ragnarok when I missed it.
It would be nice to have a more balanced Ragnarok server.
DOWN WITH MULTI-CLIENTING!

Offline Kolby

Wow never knew this at all but I never levelled up there except for very rare instances always at payon dungeon lol. I guess its more relatable on low rates. Was there any other updates that caused a significant experience difference?
Searching for friends is hard
Searching for companionship is harder
Be grateful to those who accompany you
On this Road, like the Wayfarer(A Person Travelling) finding it's way back home!

Playing since: 2004

Offline Playtester

Wow never knew this at all but I never levelled up there except for very rare instances always at payon dungeon lol. I guess its more relatable on low rates. Was there any other updates that caused a significant experience difference?
Only new content.

Metaling and Geographers made leveling fairly easy for ranges classes, kind of also ruined early partying a bit because no Acolytes were needed to party up with anymore.

Of course the addition of Bio3 and Thor completely through over the usual HP:Exp ratio, but I guess you could argue those places are also harder than any other places ever before. Still it kinda changed the gameplay style from a group working together and player trying to exploit the mob AI to never be hit without protection (because otherwise you're dead).

The last one that comes to mind is the addition of Anubis. Traditionally undead monsters always gave significantly less Exp than other races due to Offensive Heal and Turn Undead being a thing (see e.g. Ancient Mummy 40000 HP -> 8000/3500 Exp, this was the maximum Gravity was willing to make undead mobs give back then), as Priest if you couldn't find a group you could still somewhat level up a little bit, but partying up was always more viable. With the addition of Anubis, suddenly there was no reason to party up at all anymore. Priests would just solo at Anubis forever (or at least until Rebirth).

These would be the updates I'd consider the most "unbalancing".


On a sidenote since you mentioned Payon Dungeon, the Episode 10 update also increased Exp of Munak (if you ever wondered why Munak gives more than Bongun even though Bongun is clearly harder) and also Nine Tail.

Not all of the Exp updates were bad or unreasonable. They were intended to make Rune-Midgard an interesting place to level again, but unfortunately, it was only done for a few monsters on a few maps. And for Wolves and Spores they simply went completely overboard.
« Last Edit: Dec 05, 2020, 05:22 pm by Playtester »

Offline Kolby

Only new content.

Metaling and Geographers made leveling fairly easy for ranges classes, kind of also ruined early partying a bit because no Acolytes were needed to party up with anymore.

Of course the addition of Bio3 and Thor completely through over the usual HP:Exp ratio, but I guess you could argue those places are also harder than any other places ever before. Still it kinda changed the gameplay style from a group working together and player trying to exploit the mob AI to never be hit without protection (because otherwise you're dead).

The last one that comes to mind is the addition of Anubis. Traditionally undead monsters always gave significantly less Exp than other races due to Offensive Heal and Turn Undead being a thing (see e.g. Ancient Mummy 40000 HP -> 8000/3500 Exp, this was the maximum Gravity was willing to make undead mobs give back then), as Priest if you couldn't find a group you could still somewhat level up a little bit, but partying up was always more viable. With the addition of Anubis, suddenly there was no reason to party up at all anymore. Priests would just solo at Anubis forever (or at least until Rebirth).

These would be the updates I'd consider the most "unbalancing".


On a sidenote since you mentioned Payon Dungeon, the Episode 10 update also increased Exp of Munak (if you ever wondered why Munak gives more than Bongun even though Bongun is clearly harder) and also Nine Tail.

Not all of the Exp updates were bad or unreasonable. They were intended to make Rune-Midgard an interesting place to level again, but unfortunately, it was only done for a few monsters on a few maps. And for Wolves and Spores they simply went completely overboard.
lol yeah I remember that now you mention bongun having lesser exp haha

When was Anubis actually released? I remember grinding ancient mummies on high rated servers if I went low rate always went to the seals. Didn't even know Anubis was a thing until years later people abuse it in mid-rates.

Yeah it's sad nobody parties with acos anymore. I remember it was such a relief to see one, or rather it was a critical component on your party. Thankfully my guild leader was an OP alcolyte with a ghostring card haha.

Oh dude I remember the Bio3 days, it was so difficult to get the pass but once you get it it was worth it! We were leeched by a champion who had a Garm card(still have no idea how he got it) and he was just helping everybody level at bio3. The mobs would just froze when he came and he would asura them no problem. took me around 7 years to finally figure out how to beat 1646 aka seyren windsor and his goons tho lol
Searching for friends is hard
Searching for companionship is harder
Be grateful to those who accompany you
On this Road, like the Wayfarer(A Person Travelling) finding it's way back home!

Playing since: 2004

Offline Playtester

Fairly sure Anubis was added in episode 11.3.

In fact Anubis is actually a pretty old monster that existed before but was removed.

Of course back then Anubis was more balanced with 12359 HP and giving 2906/2700 EXP.

Offline Xellie

I'm really glad to see this topic from someone who isn't me! (I think we've met in other places where there were *ahem* differences of opinion on what official means.)

I'm actually going through the process of collecting up such things, all the lost stuff. Spawn changes are one that really get to me. Some of the skill changes through the game's progression and there's no real good source of it all out there for server owners, I think.

Offline Playtester

I'm really glad to see this topic from someone who isn't me! (I think we've met in other places where there were *ahem* differences of opinion on what official means.)

I'm actually going through the process of collecting up such things, all the lost stuff. Spawn changes are one that really get to me. Some of the skill changes through the game's progression and there's no real good source of it all out there for server owners, I think.
Feel free to contact me, if you need any help.

Unfortunately, it's gotten really hard to dig up the information with many of the places that had the information closing down, most of Doddler's episode update stuff is really hard to find now too and Warp Portal forums are blocked from Europe. So I have to mostly go from memory and old files I still have.

There are still sources on the old spawns, though, so that could definitely be restored.

Offline Tenuguu

I would really love to see a central point of information like a database/wiki for changes throughout the ages, something definitive and comprehensive all in one place. All information is so fragmented now, piecing together what you can from archived sites such as doddlers, forum posts, etc, and information on update changes seems to change from one list to the next. How cool would it be to have a database where you can change the "version" you're on and have the information change accordingly? Can only dream, lol.
Current Server(s):
RetRO - 1x/1x/1x
Ragnarok Roleplay Online - 0.75x/0.75x/1x

Offline Xellie

Feel free to contact me, if you need any help.

Unfortunately, it's gotten really hard to dig up the information with many of the places that had the information closing down, most of Doddler's episode update stuff is really hard to find now too and Warp Portal forums are blocked from Europe. So I have to mostly go from memory and old files I still have.

There are still sources on the old spawns, though, so that could definitely be restored.

Shooting you my discord info in DM

Offline Nova

Feel free to contact me, if you need any help.

Unfortunately, it's gotten really hard to dig up the information with many of the places that had the information closing down, most of Doddler's episode update stuff is really hard to find now too and Warp Portal forums are blocked from Europe. So I have to mostly go from memory and old files I still have.

There are still sources on the old spawns, though, so that could definitely be restored.
https://www.torproject.org/download/ to access warpportal.
I am not associated with NovaRO.

Offline Neffletics

After seeing this topic, I felt the need to share my old database.

https://rathena.org/board/topic/126711-episode-5-mob-spawn-and-mob-database/
www.solaceragnarok.com | The only server worth playing in SEA | Started in December 2019
Pre-Renewal | No Dual Logging | 2,000+ Players Daily | Best Economy | Best WoE

Offline Playtester

After seeing this topic, I felt the need to share my old database.

https://rathena.org/board/topic/126711-episode-5-mob-spawn-and-mob-database/
That mob database is at least episode 13.1.

The spawns are somewhat close to episode 5, but there are some differences too.

And you made some mistakes for example you defined the spawns for gef_dun02 twice, so all the spawns are double as high as they should be, then you commented out Doppelganger... but it actually spawned there (once).

Offline Neffletics

I believe most of the boss monsters were commented because I used to have a script that activates PK when an MVP is alive.

As for the mob_db, we followed the stats and drops of a hardbound guidebook based on pRO.

 /wah
www.solaceragnarok.com | The only server worth playing in SEA | Started in December 2019
Pre-Renewal | No Dual Logging | 2,000+ Players Daily | Best Economy | Best WoE

Offline distilled1

I believe most of the boss monsters were commented because I used to have a script that activates PK when an MVP is alive.

As for the mob_db, we followed the stats and drops of a hardbound guidebook based on pRO.

 /wah

What is this "hardbound guidebook" you speak of? A physical guidebook you own in real life? It sounds interesting.
DOWN WITH MULTI-CLIENTING!

Offline Neffletics

What is this "hardbound guidebook" you speak of? A physical guidebook you own in real life? It sounds interesting.

Yeah, I referred to the following guidebooks.




Before ratemyserver and irowiki were born, we had these.
www.solaceragnarok.com | The only server worth playing in SEA | Started in December 2019
Pre-Renewal | No Dual Logging | 2,000+ Players Daily | Best Economy | Best WoE

Offline Tenuguu

Yeah, I referred to the following guidebooks.

Before ratemyserver and irowiki were born, we had these.

That is awesome!!
Are there scans anywhere for this?
Current Server(s):
RetRO - 1x/1x/1x
Ragnarok Roleplay Online - 0.75x/0.75x/1x

Offline distilled1

That is absolutely legendary, Neffletics!
What a magical relic to behold
DOWN WITH MULTI-CLIENTING!

Offline Neffletics

That is awesome!!
Are there scans anywhere for this?

I will take photos of each page when I have time. I'll share the pdfs here. ~

That is absolutely legendary, Neffletics!
What a magical relic to behold

It is. I kind of regret I didn't take good care of it. I should've covered it with plastic. /heh
www.solaceragnarok.com | The only server worth playing in SEA | Started in December 2019
Pre-Renewal | No Dual Logging | 2,000+ Players Daily | Best Economy | Best WoE

Offline Playtester

Would be interested in the scans as well.

But the mob_db you uploaded in that zip is basically just the rAthena pre-re mob_db. For example look at Wolf, Spore and Anubis stats.

Offline Neffletics

Would be interested in the scans as well.

But the mob_db you uploaded in that zip is basically just the rAthena pre-re mob_db. For example look at Wolf, Spore, and Anubis stats.

We might have overlooked it. Anubis was left untouched since they're not available on our server back then.

I'm pretty sure the mob drops are at least accurate to the official server except for their drop rate. ~
www.solaceragnarok.com | The only server worth playing in SEA | Started in December 2019
Pre-Renewal | No Dual Logging | 2,000+ Players Daily | Best Economy | Best WoE

Offline Playtester

We might have overlooked it. Anubis was left untouched since they're not available on our server back then.

I'm pretty sure the mob drops are at least accurate to the official server except for their drop rate. ~
If you're interested you can take a look at the file I liked in the opening post and compare it with your mob_db. :-)

Offline Kolby

If you're interested you can take a look at the file I liked in the opening post and compare it with your mob_db. :-)
I told you man there was no anubis before my memory was right haha that was why we grinded ancient mummy or seals
Searching for friends is hard
Searching for companionship is harder
Be grateful to those who accompany you
On this Road, like the Wayfarer(A Person Travelling) finding it's way back home!

Playing since: 2004

Offline Playtester

I told you man there was no anubis before my memory was right haha that was why we grinded ancient mummy or seals
Yeah, Anubis was only there on episode 1+2 I think, then got removed. Then added again in 11.3 but with completely different stats.

But there are tons of differences so I thought if he wanted to have official episode 5 he might be interested to check what's all wrong in his file.

Offline Imperial Regalia

Ragnarok Travels has authentic classic stats for every monster mentioned in this thread (and more).
Official rates | Episode 7 | Authentic mechanics (no emulation bugs) | No multi-clienting | No donation gear | English speaking

Visit Ragnarok Travels and learn more.

Offline Wosi2

Only after month of begging from Players and MVPs are still not changed...
 You should have had authentic Monster stats from the start or not at all...
New Players will be at a big disadvantage now in my opinion.
« Last Edit: Dec 21, 2020, 12:52 pm by Wosi2 »

Offline Imperial Regalia

None of that is correct information.

(For full disclosure for everyone, and he will deny this, Wosi disagrees with our stance on god items as well as multi-clienting and is affiliated with a competing server project)
Official rates | Episode 7 | Authentic mechanics (no emulation bugs) | No multi-clienting | No donation gear | English speaking

Visit Ragnarok Travels and learn more.

Offline Wosi2

I am a bit surprised. So you did change the MVP stats as well? I would have looked it up, but your website does not give this information. Feel free to share new information here.

The rest of my post was my opinion. Nothing about an opinion can be correct or incorrect, you can just share it, or your dont.

And why on earth would I deny, that I dont share some of your opinions? Yes, I think God Items are a valid way to give an incentiv to players to play competitive WoE? Concerning Multi-Clienting, I prefer a restriction to 2 clients. But I played on your server anyway, because I am also okay with one client and no God Items. And lastly, I am helping an competing server project gather information and do some research for them, because I think this could be the server for me, when it is finished. So if this means, I am affiliated, then yes. I cant see anything wrong with that or why it would invalidate my opinions...

If I was wrong about your MVPs stats, then I apologize. I did not want to share wrong information, but as far as I knew, you do not have authentic MVP stats.

Lastly, I think that new players are at a disadvantage, because you changed monster stats so late. Older players, like me, had the chance to easily lvl their chars at wolfes to second class. It will be much harder for others...
But again, thats just my opinion and you are of course entiteld to your own.

Offline Playtester

Lastly, I think that new players are at a disadvantage, because you changed monster stats so late. Older players, like me, had the chance to easily lvl their chars at wolfes to second class. It will be much harder for others...
That's by the way the reason why I don't just register at all those servers that have the stats wrong and post about the monster stats on there. I think fixing them while the server is already running for a while would be too late and I don't want to hurt the servers.

Offline Imperial Regalia

The stat changes aren't just a low level thing. They actually apply to monsters across the entire leveling spectrum. In our case, it was an intentional decision.
Official rates | Episode 7 | Authentic mechanics (no emulation bugs) | No multi-clienting | No donation gear | English speaking

Visit Ragnarok Travels and learn more.

Offline distilled1

I don't know about Monster stat changes in Ragnarok Travels since I haven't got time to play, but I did notice that the Prontera church map was recently reverted back to the original style instead of the incorrect episode style it had in the beginning. I for one would welcome corrections like these any time, even if they are late.
There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. If you're of the opinion that there's something wrong with "better late than never", then that's fair, but mistakes happen. I've seen it happen in many other RO servers where they had to correct something after players had already "taken advantage" of it.

Even if it was something radical like 999x more exp from the beginning, then a month later corrected down to 1x exp, it's still better late than never. At least I believe it is.
Should new players feel entitled to be on the same level as those who began a month earlier than them anyway? No, and Ragnarok Online shouldn't be a rush to the end of the game anyway. It's not supposed to be a race, and once people reach max level, it's not supposed to be over and done with. It's supposed to be a social game of cooperation to take down giant monsters or conquer WoE castles for your guild which you can always get to eventually, regardless of when you joined.
With any half-decent community, the ones at higher levels would want to help out new players most of the time anyway. Giving them help leveling or in WoE. Maybe even giving them items.

Even players who all joined at the beginning can have vastly different amounts of spare time to play, giving some players more advantage than others to progress faster. Some players are level 50 by the time others are still level 20 for example. Nothing wrong with that, and it shouldn't deter anyone from playing.
DOWN WITH MULTI-CLIENTING!

Offline Playtester

Even if it was something radical like 999x more exp from the beginning, then a month later corrected down to 1x exp, it's still better late than never. At least I believe it is.
If something like that happened, then the server should definitely wipe. Maybe give existing player a small compensation, but definitely revert them back to level 1/1.

Ragnarok Online is mainly alive these days because of the competition, if you give players who start early an advantage, it will stop more players from joining and eventually the server will die.

If you are afraid that you might not be 100% accurate at launch, you could however put lower rates at first. Or go by the "when in doubt always pick what's more disadvantageous for the player" rule. Because then you could increase the rates after a fix so get new players.

Offline distilled1

Ragnarok Online is mainly alive these days because of the competition
While I do disagree with that, maybe I'm thinking of RO from a female perspective too much. Personally, I never cared for the competitive side of RO, but you're right, competition is a major part of it, equally as important as socializing and cooperation.
However, I'd say the reason RO is alive these days is nostalgia more than anything. Just to be immersed in that old world we remember fondly. I think players who want a good, competitive gaming experience these day go to games like Fortnite, or League of Legends, no?
DOWN WITH MULTI-CLIENTING!

Offline Playtester

While I do disagree with that, maybe I'm thinking of RO from a female perspective too much. Personally, I never cared for the competitive side of RO, but you're right, competition is a major part of it, equally as important as socializing and cooperation.
However, I'd say the reason RO is alive these days is nostalgia more than anything. Just to be immersed in that old world we remember fondly. I think players who want a good, competitive gaming experience these day go to games like Fortnite, or League of Legends, no?
Don't get me wrong, I don't care about PVP either, but you will not get 1000+ players on your server without getting some strong competitive guilds to join at launch.

Offline Imperial Regalia

Official Ragnarok Online had many buffs and nerfs throughout its history. Kafras used to warp to dungeons, Double Strafe used to cost no arrows, Claymore used to be significantly more powerful of a skill, drop rates went down and then up, spawn density went down and then up, and so on. The nature of an episodic server will ultimately involve changes like these. I am also idealistic enough to believe that owners of non-episodic (static) servers should not be afraid to issue changes if they need to be done, but I digress.

We were aware of these differences before starting and our decision to add them in was intentional. We did so based on the fact that the scope is not too large, we are a very young server, the changes are actually dispersed throughout the entire leveling spectrum (they affect all players), and quite simply because the community wanted it. New and old players alike are enjoying the greater leveling diversity.
Official rates | Episode 7 | Authentic mechanics (no emulation bugs) | No multi-clienting | No donation gear | English speaking

Visit Ragnarok Travels and learn more.

Offline iceman

This why I always checkout mob and item database before we jump in :D  Lot's of server we tried offering they said Classic but yet its not so classic when you play it. I am particular with episodic events. Me and my friends testing from server to server so far ok with the current server play-retro . n e t but we still continue to evaluate because it is new.