Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.

[Rudolph Zyaber]

This would be the most boring piece of crap server in the world.  While I'm sure there are a few limited population of players that enjoy the classic pre-trans RO environment, there are way more people like me who look forward to the advancement and the pace of Transcendant class gameplay and the frequent and exciting updates that Gravity makes to the game.  I personally can't wait till all the 3-1 and 3-2 classes are complete and the renewal system is fully finished in its entirety. 

If memory servers me right when I played private servers back in the day, it would always end up who can Sonic Blow/Double Strafe the fastest anyway in PVP and WoE was just the same as it is now. It's probably better in a post-trans environment anyway because all the new magic defense and elemental resistance gears give you more of an edge against precast defenses in castles.

Feel free to make this server if you want but you've really gotta think back to when you first played RO for the first time.  Was it really all that balanced in the first place?  I'd personally say no.

[LiteX]

This would be the most boring piece of crap server in the world.  While I'm sure there are a few limited population of players that enjoy the classic pre-trans RO environment, there are way more people like me who look forward to the advancement and the pace of Transcendant class gameplay and the frequent and exciting updates that Gravity makes to the game.  I personally can't wait till all the 3-1 and 3-2 classes are complete and the renewal system is fully finished in its entirety. 

If memory servers me right when I played private servers back in the day, it would always end up who can Sonic Blow/Double Strafe the fastest anyway in PVP and WoE was just the same as it is now. It's probably better in a post-trans environment anyway because all the new magic defense and elemental resistance gears give you more of an edge against precast defenses in castles.

Feel free to make this server if you want but you've really gotta think back to when you first played RO for the first time.  Was it really all that balanced in the first place?  I'd personally say no.

Atleast back then we did not have skills that could double, triple and even quadruple our normal attack power...

[Poki]

The word "Balance" shouldn't coexist with RO, ever.  There's always something wrong.

[Ayu]

The word "Balance" shouldn't coexist with RO, ever.  There's always something wrong.

Balance exist. It's just subjective, that's all.

Some thinks that SinX is perfectly fine. Some thinks that it's not. If you think that they are fine, you don't need to find this server. If you think that they aren't, then you will look forward to try out this potential server without it and all the other variations of retro feel. I'm personally somewhat interested to see what it'll be like even though I don't pvp. The new mvp environment sounds interesting enough to me.

[horo]

This would be the most boring piece of crap server in the world.  While I'm sure there are a few limited population of players that enjoy the classic pre-trans RO environment, there are way more people like me who look forward to the advancement and the pace of Transcendant class gameplay and the frequent and exciting updates that Gravity makes to the game.  I personally can't wait till all the 3-1 and 3-2 classes are complete and the renewal system is fully finished in its entirety. 

If memory servers me right when I played private servers back in the day, it would always end up who can Sonic Blow/Double Strafe the fastest anyway in PVP and WoE was just the same as it is now. It's probably better in a post-trans environment anyway because all the new magic defense and elemental resistance gears give you more of an edge against precast defenses in castles.

Feel free to make this server if you want but you've really gotta think back to when you first played RO for the first time.  Was it really all that balanced in the first place?  I'd personally say no.

Had you read this thread, you would've noticed that it's not about debating whether advanced classes are better to have or not. You would've also read that we will have most of the gear available, and that RO was never balanced, and I don't intend to recreate the original RO, but to try and balance it somewhat to which one step is doing away with advanced classes.

Please make yet another thread about why advanced classes are amazing/horrible if you care to argue but don't derail this one about it, thanks!

I don't think most of the equipment really change how you build a character that significantly as most items don't have that severe +stat type of bonus except valk set so I don't think stat reset is much of a problem. Also, from a GM perspective instead of balance/player perspective, the act of gathering information and is on the initiative to discuss with the players first showers you in a greater light and earns authority/trust from your player base for what type of an admin you are.

Gravity releases new gears and they never provided reset even if that means they may have "oh no now I got 1 str too many!" Just live with it like any other regular server doing an update. No need the spoon feeding on that, imho.

Personally I still think that releasing items bit by bit (or episodes by episodes) make it easiest to balance, and ensure that the server got plenty of "new content" to look forward to.

Let's take for example Rachel, the two 2-H Axes that came with it changed WS' possibilities significantly, and moved him up a good deal on the damage ladder. Depending on your gear, WS can now lay down Atroce in 15-30 seconds (with priest), and outdamage almost any class at a bunch of MVP, whereas before you wouldn't even build your WS towards that. While no items ruined builds absolutely iirc, lots of equips and cards made a big difference, and I can't justify keeping it from players as they might grow tired of waiting for the update to be implemented so they can finally continue collecting their gear. Gravity did actually provide stat resets from time to time, and I don't want to have either a stat resetter, or card unslotter.

The server population you get at the very start is just too important to risk it by such a move, even if it has the chance to pay off.

[Rudolph Zyaber]

This would be the most boring piece of crap server in the world.  While I'm sure there are a few limited population of players that enjoy the classic pre-trans RO environment, there are way more people like me who look forward to the advancement and the pace of Transcendant class gameplay and the frequent and exciting updates that Gravity makes to the game.  I personally can't wait till all the 3-1 and 3-2 classes are complete and the renewal system is fully finished in its entirety. 

If memory servers me right when I played private servers back in the day, it would always end up who can Sonic Blow/Double Strafe the fastest anyway in PVP and WoE was just the same as it is now. It's probably better in a post-trans environment anyway because all the new magic defense and elemental resistance gears give you more of an edge against precast defenses in castles.

Feel free to make this server if you want but you've really gotta think back to when you first played RO for the first time.  Was it really all that balanced in the first place?  I'd personally say no.

Had you read this thread, you would've noticed that it's not about debating whether advanced classes are better to have or not. You would've also read that we will have most of the gear available, and that RO was never balanced, and I don't intend to recreate the original RO, but to try and balance it somewhat to which one step is doing away with advanced classes.

Please make yet another thread about why advanced classes are amazing/horrible if you care to argue but don't derail this one about it, thanks!

I apologize, I had assumed this was one of those threads reminiscing about the old days of RO and seeking to balance a server by denying players content and new classes to play.  Still, I can't imagine an RO server anymore without the use of the Transcendant classes.  Sorry about nearly derailing the thread.

[Descent]

In a sea full of "Classic" style servers, this one seems to have a shot. I say go for it.

[horo]

To come back to balancing advanced equips, do tell me what you think about these changes please (the servers droprate will be x10):

Item ID# 2000 (Destruction_Rod) â€" change droprate to 4%
Item ID# 2423 (Variant_Shoes) â€" change to 15% hp/sp and to 1% drop instead of 20%
Tidal + Wool - Reduce set bonus to max hp 5%
Item ID# 2115 (Valkyrja's_Shield) â€" change droprate to 2.5%, change defense to 1.
Item ID# 2114 (Stone_Buckler) â€" change droprate to 0.3%
Item ID# 2364 (Meteo_Plate_Armor) - change defense to 8 instead of 10.
Item ID# 1626 (Piercing_Staff) â€" change droprate to 0.05%
Item ID# 1624 (Lich_Bone_Wand) â€" take out completely.

[Pandora]

Do you really think non-trans can kill beelz? I'm honestly not convinced although it's not impossible.

Your change seem ok, but one thing you should know is that not all your players will think so, if you do start this server with lots of personally made modifications expect a LOT of whining, b****-ing and arguing from your player base, for each change you make some will like it, some will hate it. You'll hear them argue about such and such being balanced or unbalanced compared to X other item for Y class, I'm just saying be ready for it.

[horo]

Do you really think non-trans can kill beelz? I'm honestly not convinced although it's not impossible.

Your change seem ok, but one thing you should know is that not all your players will think so, if you do start this server with lots of personally made modifications expect a LOT of whining, b****-ing and arguing from your player base, for each change you make some will like it, some will hate it. You'll hear them argue about such and such being balanced or unbalanced compared to X other item for Y class, I'm just saying be ready for it.

Running one of the greatest (in both applications of the word) custom servers, few people probably know this better than you  . Should players overwhelmingly feel I screwed up an item and make a good argument for it, I'm not opposed to changing it...here's two I forgot:

Item ID# 2678 (Ring_of_Flame_Lord) â€" take out chance to cast random skill for both rings, and change the setbonus to something else.
Item ID# 2679 (Ring_of_Resonance) â€" Add: Increase resistance to Water property by 10%

plus I'll adjust Satan Morroc and Valkyrie drops slightly so they won't drop all their stuff 100%. To be fair I'd be surprised if 2nd classes could outdamage Beelzebub's heal especially considering his element, but rather be safe than sorry.

[Ayu]

Let's take for example Rachel, the two 2-H Axes that came with it changed WS' possibilities significantly, and moved him up a good deal on the damage ladder. Depending on your gear, WS can now lay down Atroce in 15-30 seconds (with priest), and outdamage almost any class at a bunch of MVP, whereas before you wouldn't even build your WS towards that. While no items ruined builds absolutely iirc, lots of equips and cards made a big difference, and I can't justify keeping it from players as they might grow tired of waiting for the update to be implemented so they can finally continue collecting their gear. Gravity did actually provide stat resets from time to time, and I don't want to have either a stat resetter, or card unslotter.

Made a difference? Yes.
Need to change build/re-stat to use it or fight against it? I doubt that re-stat is necessary to use Bardiche or Hurricane Fury.
(Plus both are inferior to orcish axe[4] because losing a shield is tremendous loss for a whitesmith. I honestly wonder even with HP how does the WS survive Atroce for 30 sec using a 2h axe.)


Like what Descent said, this server seems interesting that you don't finish all that you can do within 2 weeks. And I really don't see why Beelzebub won't go down here... maybe nowhere close to first month, but it'll happen (that's the point of this server right?)

Be sure to make a clear accessible list for players to check on the change logs, but I really encourage you not to do all the changes at once. Give time for players to digest and adapt to the server's custom atmosphere due to the changes, or else you may sort of suffer from a MouRO type of shock where you lose potential player base because there's just so many customization, they won't bother reading it all or feel "it's too different for this to be RO." You aren't the only one who need time to think of the customs. Your players need time to learn and adapt (and think of their builds) on how to utilize these changes.

[horo]

Made a difference? Yes.
Need to change build/re-stat to use it or fight against it? I doubt that re-stat is necessary to use Bardiche or Hurricane Fury.
(Plus both are inferior to orcish axe[4] because losing a shield is tremendous loss for a whitesmith. I honestly wonder even with HP how does the WS survive Atroce for 30 sec using a 2h axe.)


Like what Descent said, this server seems interesting that you don't finish all that you can do within 2 weeks. And I really don't see why Beelzebub won't go down here... maybe nowhere close to first month, but it'll happen (that's the point of this server right?)

Be sure to make a clear accessible list for players to check on the change logs, but I really encourage you not to do all the changes at once. Give time for players to digest and adapt to the server's custom atmosphere due to the changes, or else you may sort of suffer from a MouRO type of shock where you lose potential player base because there's just so many customization, they won't bother reading it all or feel "it's too different for this to be RO." You aren't the only one who need time to think of the customs. Your players need time to learn and adapt (and think of their builds) on how to utilize these changes.

Before Hurricane's Fury, WS just wouldn't do sufficient damage to warrant a 90+ str/80+ agi/rest dex build, whereas now it makes them somewhat fragile, but able to dish out probably the highest consistent DPS in the game, especially coupled with SW tanking. I remember getting 13-14k CT's at 184 aspd vs Atroce without any fancy equipment.
Well, my point is, releasing the server up-to-date episode wise is far less of a risk than doing it your way, though I still like it.
I do hope that the overall increased difficulty of this server setup will challenge players more than just mowing everything down checklist-play style, and thus keep them interested for longer.

I do understand about weirding players out by a large amount of customization, and will do my very best to relay these in the utmost clarity, but I just feel like betraying players if I let them spend time collecting items inferior to some I could have released from the beginning and spared them from hunting for what is ultimately worthless compared to the new equip.
In related news, balancing out the 120+ or so headgears in the database both to each other, and the existing headgears, and then finding ways for them to be implemented in the game as to not be significantly harder or easier to obtain than comparable headgears is the most complicated thing 
I'm scared of overlooking, or making an adjustment that might end up unbalancing the server majorly, and keeping track of everything is certainly daunting, but I'm in no rush to get things right before I open the server.

[bleu]

To come back to balancing advanced equips, do tell me what you think about these changes please (the servers droprate will be x10):

Item ID# 2000 (Destruction_Rod) â€" change droprate to 4%
Item ID# 2423 (Variant_Shoes) â€" change to 15% hp/sp and to 1% drop instead of 20%
Tidal + Wool - Reduce set bonus to max hp 5%
Item ID# 2115 (Valkyrja's_Shield) â€" change droprate to 2.5%, change defense to 1.
Item ID# 2114 (Stone_Buckler) â€" change droprate to 0.3%
Item ID# 2364 (Meteo_Plate_Armor) - change defense to 8 instead of 10.
Item ID# 1626 (Piercing_Staff) â€" change droprate to 0.05%
Item ID# 1624 (Lich_Bone_Wand) â€" take out completely.

The information provided is incomplete. So, does this means Bleezebub will only drop two items- only being Destruction Rod at 4% and the other being Variant Shoes at 1%. If that is the case, it's very discouraging to even attempt a Bleezebub MVP Party. As a player, I want to be rewarded for my efforts (or team efforts). It's hard enough that they don't have any Trans/Extended class skills like Assumptio, Kahii, etc... and yet you want to further discourage any Bleezebub MVP attempts by further reducing the drop rate in the name of "balance". Even on normal servers, it takes many long hours of careful planning and attempts to successfully kill a Bleezebub and there's no guarantee of any nice drop; even if there are good drops; it will most likely need to be split up and shared among the party members of 12-20+ members. Not to mention the countless of deaths and supplies used. Are there any discussion in tonning down Bleezebub and other high level MVPs; which were designed for Trans classes?


I am quite curious, why did you choose X2 X2 X10. It's quite unusual for a server to have a higher drop rates compared to experience rates.


Yes, you have to be "very prepared" to justify your changes to your players/potential players. For instance: Item ID# 2364 (Meteo_Plate_Armor) - change defense to 8 instead of 10? how much difference will a -2DEF do? How do you justify a -2DEF will upset the balance? Other people might not agree with your notion of what constitute balance.

[horo]

The information provided is incomplete. So, does this means Bleezebub will only drop two items- only being Destruction Rod at 4% and the other being Variant Shoes at 1%. If that is the case, it's very discouraging to even attempt a Bleezebub MVP Party. As a player, I want to be rewarded for my efforts (or team efforts). It's hard enough that they don't have any Trans/Extended class skills like Assumptio, Kahii, etc... and yet you want to further discourage any Bleezebub MVP attempts by further reducing the drop rate in the name of "balance". Even on normal servers, it takes many long hours of careful planning and attempts to successfully kill a Bleezebub and there's no guarantee of any nice drop; even if there are good drops; it will most likely need to be split up and shared among the party members of 12-20+ members. Not to mention the countless of deaths and supplies used. Are there any discussion in tonning down Bleezebub and other high level MVPs; which were designed for Trans classes?


I am quite curious, why did you choose X2 X2 X10. It's quite unusual for a server to have a higher drop rates compared to experience rates.


Yes, you have to be "very prepared" to justify your changes to your players/potential players. For instance: Item ID# 2364 (Meteo_Plate_Armor) - change defense to 8 instead of 10? how much difference will a -2DEF do? How do you justify a -2DEF will upset the balance? Other people might not agree with your notion of what constitute balance.

Those are just the items equippable by advanced classes only that I consider too good to leave in their original state, so Beelze will still drop the rest of his things at original rates x 10. I honestly can't envision how hard exactly Beelze will be on this server, so either the item droprates will be restored to their original values, which would make them 100% drops, or, and that I consider the preferable solution, Beelze will be nerfed appropiately. I'm definitely considering toning down the latter MVP, but it's a delicate issue and has to be coordinated with their drops.

I chose 2/2/10 as leveling 2nd classes to 99 with up-to-date maps is quite fast, but farming items hasn't become any easier really since the beginning of RO. I want players to be able to get good equipment along the way, and not have to tend to that only after hitting 90+, or 99. I'd prefer 1/1/10 actually, but that would probably deter too many players. Had the server advanced classes, and their heightened exp requirements, I would've certainly gone with higher exp rates to account for that.

My justification for Meteor Plate is as follows: It originally has the same defense as a slotted Full Plate, with 30% resistance to stun and freeze, which are two of the best status effects in game really, and on top of that it's equippable not only by swordsman classes, but merchant classes too, so carding it is less of a 'waste'. Definitely easier to obtain than a sl. Full Plate, it outclasses any other armor (including sl. Legion Plate), making them worthless. By reducing its def I restore value to Full Plate and Legion Plate as PvM armors at least, when in the original game, they have been made absolutely obsolete and worthless. Even with 8 def (or less), it would be the best reasonably obtainable WoE armor no question because of its resistances.

In kRo, these gears were justified by 'being for advanced classes only', (which is a cheat really since 2nd classes have become just as worthless as their gears with the advent of advanced classes), but I won't have advanced classes meaning no two classes of equip either, so they must all be somewhat balanced out.

[Ayu]

Hm decide on one thing first:

What do you think about equipments that can "replace" an existing item?

For example, for slotted garments, in the beginning we just have hood, muffler and manteau. Then Pauldron started coming in, followed by valkyrie manteau. Wool Scarf and Dragon's Breath joined, and now we have satan morroc dropping the newest available slotted garment.

If I recall what you mentioned before, you said that you don't want players to waste time hunting an "inferior" garment. So does that mean you want all garments to be usable on the same extent, or are you keeping some of the garments only as "stepping stones" to use before you reach the 'best equipment' stage?

Sorry if this post is confusing. Hope that you understand what I meant.