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Offline CryingBabies

RMS: A platform for the toxic
« on: Jul 17, 2022, 05:44 pm »
Hello everyone.

It's time we discussed this issue. And in this case this post is deleted, I will create another account and post it again, then again, and again. It's time someone talks truthfully about what the RMS Reviewing System has become.

I mean, most RO players use RMS to find out about servers to play in. Some users will access it everyday because they have nothing better to do, but there are others who don't even have an account and create one for the sole purpose of leaving a fake review with the intent of tainting a server's reputation.

And what annoys me the most? yC allows these fake reviews to stay there. Even if they go against RMS's "Guidelines". These "guidelines" have already proven to be there just so they "exist", but yC's decisions are not based on that, quite on the contrary, are very, very arbitrary.

The fact that the most "Recent News" on RMS are from 2017 shows how much yC cares about updating the platform.

The only thing yC really cares about is the money coming in from ads, let's be honest. yC doesn't want to get involved because they don't want to have to deal with the backlash they know will happen afterwards.

RMS's Discord Server? Full of people that hate RO or don't even play it anymore and are just there for the drama.

My suggestion for you, yC? You either disable the Review System or start taking it more seriously, and by it I mean really READ the reviews that are reported and really DELETE them when they go against your "Guidelines".

Because what happens now is players use your Review System (and also the Forum), to turn small frustrations that they felt on a server into FAKE reviews, leaving wrong scores merely to decrease a server's ranking. I mean, if you take a look at a review with a really low score, with hateful content, among other good, legit reviews, and these bad reviews are usually written by someone who created an account on the SAME DAY, it's CLEAR that the purpose of that person is to damage the server's ranking.

And what does yC does about that? NOTHING! She doesn't want to have to bother with that, again, she only cares about the money coming in from ads, so she acts upon reviews as LITTLE as possible because she needs the money from ads and is AFRAID of the backlash players who get their reviews deleted might come with.

This is a message to you, yC: If you intend to keep your Reviewing System the way it is on RMS, then you'd better start paying more attention to it and start deleting that reviews that are FAKE and/or merely done with the purpose of damaging a server. Start reading the other reviews for the same server and really analyze them. Or just get rid of the Reviewing System altogether.

Cause the way it is now, it's a tool that butt hurt players use to transform minor frustrations into a fake, hateful comment, which they know the "admin" of this platform will do NOTHING about.

I'm sad with you, yC. You are in fact very biased on the decisions you take on this platform and you allow toxicity to flourish here.

You either pay more attention to the review reports on your platform, or you can expect us to come soon with full force and we'll make sure to shut you down.

Also, having boards like "Rant and Rave" and "Hall of Shame" is also another way to encourage players to be hateful.

Shame, just a shame.

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Offline distilled1

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #1 on: Jul 17, 2022, 06:13 pm »
There should still be a rant and rave section. People should be able to make public criticisms of poorly behaving servers or GMs as a warning to other players.

That said, yeah the reviewing on this website is clearly not moderated to the extent it should be.
These are the review guidelines


Yet, nearly every review in existence on this website are various versions of "Join Join <3" or "This server SUCKS!" without giving any explanation for the score given (the very thing that goes against review guidelines).
So if these guidelines aren't enforced, why even have them? The reviews which break these guidelines aren't being deleted as they should be.

Furthermore, and this is more of a personal opinion, why are we even giving scores for things that are unrelated to the quality of a Ragnarok server anyways?
Things such as rating a Game Master's friendliness or availability on a scale of 1 to 10. Who even cares about that as long as the GM is doing their job. They don't need to be available to answer every stupid question a player can simply find online. The server can still be of great quality regardless of this.
Eventfulness? Events do not equate to quality. Lots of players, myself included, do not like events as they feel more like a forced and fake way to provide feelings of community.
I prefer servers without events. Again more of a personal opinion though.

A better category to rate a server on would be its fairness to all players like how pay to win it is. How pay for convenience is it? Something more important and directly related to the quality of a server.
DOWN WITH MULTI-CLIENTING!

Offline yC

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #2 on: Jul 17, 2022, 07:35 pm »
Hello, someone hiding behind CloudFlare Inc. is considered hiding real IP isn't it?  Let's be honest, what do you have to hide?

Quote
I will create another account and post it again, then again, and again.

Everyone can say this, why do you think something you can do and others can't do?  This include those that believe their voice should be heard in reviews, not just your voice.  You are being ignorant and selfish if you believe only your voice need to be heard and no one else.

Let say this is your "review", I delete this and you will post it again and again.  Does this mean I do nothing? Let say this is your 10th post already, I deleted your post 9 times and you post a 10th times.  So you expect me to delete things and I did and you come back again.  This could be the answer to your post.  You just shown us what you mean by toxic?

So, first, you have to answer yourself, how should I stop you from reposting your post once it gets deleted without causing problem to our services and other users.  -- Point A

No, this does not mean we let anyone post anything.  But all I have to do is answer your question.  I do not have to care if you like my answer or not, it is still an answer.  You can take it or leave it.  I let the reader decide on their own which side they want to believe.

This is the same as in the review system or in any forum rant posts, there is always two sides to the story.  What's so bad about making a reply to counter the review if the owner believe there is an misunderstanding.  In negative reviews, there is a reply function and we always recommend server owner to reply to share their side of the story then let the reader decide.  In many cases, we normalize the review score to  "let the voice be heard" but the score must be reflecting the review content.  Otherwise, go back to answer Point A.

RMS is not the server police, we do not go into each server to verify which side is right or wrong.  Everyone's experience can be different and looking for different things in servers, there is no guarantee one player have a positive experience mean the next one will share the same experience.

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My suggestion for you, yC? You either disable the Review System or start taking it more seriously

In all seriousness, the goal of the review system and this forum is to let everyone to voice their experience / review / opinion.  You are a big contradiction to the point of bipolar since the start of the post.  Your post is like "DO NOT DELETE ME" but "GO DELETE THE OTHERS".  Like I always say, it is just "word vs word" what make your word weight more than those review you claim that are fake? 

So you don't want to see something?  Maybe it is easier for you to not see it by walking away.  No, the review system is not going away.

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I mean, if you take a look at a review with a really low score, with hateful content, among other good, legit reviews, and these bad reviews are usually written by someone who created an account on the SAME DAY, it's CLEAR that the purpose of that person is to damage the server's ranking.

I mean, if you take a look at a review with <any> score, many are written by someone who created an account on the SAME DAY.  It is not limited to cases with negative review.  You only say this to make it sound like you found this a trend without looking at the big picture.  We have daily new account creation to write new reviews, this is how the system been like for years.  People create an account to write review, people do not (normally) create an account and write a review a year later.

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The only thing yC really cares about is the money coming in from ads, let's be honest. yC doesn't want to get involved because they don't want to have to deal with the backlash they know will happen afterwards.

Do you realize how bad you contradicted yourself there?  Just answer these simple questions:

Who pay to advertise? Server owner.
Who do not want negative review?  Server owner.

If all I care is the money, you wouldn't ever see a single negative review or negative post of servers in the whole RMS. 
If I am the one in the greedy picture you are trying to paint me into, why wouldn't someone just pay to have these "false" negative review removed? 

The fact that you see these "truth" reviews/posts since the start of RMS shows that we are clean.  We do not take bribe and we might be the only neutral ground for players and servers to share/resolve their problems. 

To stay as neutral ground means we do not try to get involved and making a judgement without verifying the fact. 
RMS is a free system for player to share their experience.  What do we gain from RO players?  Nothing but loyalty.

I should also use this opportunity (since today is Sunday) to clear some false information posted around the internet that have been trying to attack us for unknown reason lately:
(You know that long as f post about a closed server.)

1. Part of it claims server owner can see reviewer IP, maybe that's why we have been seeing a lot of people hiding their IP lately?  That's completely false, anyone can go try to create a server owner account and verify that this is false.  Nobody can see reviewer IP except me.  Who would be so stupid to create a system where reviewer could risk getting banned by server for voicing their opinion. 

We respect our user's privacy and would never disclose identifiable user information without proper legal authority request.  We understand the risk of server could go after player or trying to "get back at them".  It is also a violation of our terms if players are found to be banned for making a negative review.

2.  We never seen that long post in our forum, don't know how it claim they been trying to post it here for 20 years lol.  But then with the above false information about RMS I would definitely ask them to correct it first.  So that lead to another false information where it claim we get paid to delete the post, already explained that we do not take bribe ever. 

If he want to make the post, come and do it, remove the false information about RMS first, then let see how the related server  (now closed) bother to response.  (Do not try to hide IP nor email, we will delete it for being a spam bot).

Many of you think we delete posts/topics and siding with server owners.  Then now here we have this new post about how we are not doing enough to protect server owners.  I will repeat this, we are a neutral ground, we take no sides.  That lead to word vs word and so be it.

If you believe we deleted some legit topics that are trying to reveal things lately, maybe you can find them in the junk yard.  Many of which are hiding their IP / email etc, so why should we trust them?  They will get the same status as a spam bot.


« Last Edit: Jul 17, 2022, 07:44 pm by yC »

Offline CryingBabies

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #3 on: Jul 17, 2022, 08:10 pm »
Nah, I’m just using Tor Browser to access your platform, as everyone should. You call it hiding, I call it being prudent, as we know you can see users’ IPs and their locations. Are you suggesting I should have given this information to you so you could know a little more about me? You’re welcome to PM me if you want more info on me, honey.

My point here is very, very simple, yC. You’re just too lazy to review the Guidelines to review posting and/or really ENFORCING them.

You fail to delete reported reviews that CLEARLY go AGAINST the platform’s “Guidelines”. This is no secret to anyone. But then, why having the Guidelines/Rules if reviews that go against them are not deleted?

It just doesn’t make sense. Stop being so lazy and start applying the Guidelines or update the Guidelines so they are in tune with your current practice, which in short is: doing as little as possible, as long as the money from advertisements keep coming in every month. You know this is the truth.

But once you don’t enforce the Guidelines and allow for toxic/hateful reviews to remain there by not deleting them, you are being DISRESPECTFUL to the server owners that report them, the same server owners send you money monthly with advertising.

So, as long as you are getting money from server owners, it is your DUTY to ENFORCE your Guidelines or, as I said, at least review them so they are in tune with your practice.

The thing is that you don’t want to recognize that you are failing to analyze reported reviews. Fake reviews that clearly go against the Guidelines and are reported by server owners, as I said, the ones that pay you for advertisements.

So the one here contradicting herself is actually you.

You are failing to protect the ones who pay for your advertisements. Ever heard the saying “Don’t sh*t where you eat”? That’s what you are doing. Under excuses of “freedom of speech”, or stupid rethoric questions.

What we are asking of you is that you either review the Guidelines or start really enforcing them on fake reviews.

If you fail to do that, you can be sure we are going to mess up your platform way more than it is already. So you will allow fake and hateful reviews? Ok then, get ready cause they are coming. And they are coming galore.

Offline yC

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #4 on: Jul 17, 2022, 08:31 pm »
Quote
So, as long as you are getting money from server owners, it is your DUTY ...

This is totally not the platform you are looking for, please leave.  Money do not change our judgement.  If you want to pay your way out, go elsewhere.  We get no money from server other than any that are putting in an advertisement.  That does not mean they get any privilege over any other server listed.

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You are failing to protect the ones who pay for your advertisements....

Once again, this isn't your corrupted platform.  Advertisement does not equal to protection.  You have a complete different expectation, I do not have to get paid to keep the site alive or put food on the table.  So nobody can boss me around.  If you want to pay to get something done, hire your own team and create your own corrupted platform, good luck.

Offline CryingBabies

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #5 on: Jul 17, 2022, 09:06 pm »
Quote
Once again, this isn't your corrupted platform.

Your god damn right about that yC.

This is YOUR corrupted platform.

Offline yC

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #6 on: Jul 17, 2022, 09:22 pm »
On one post you trying to paint that we do not do enough to protect server owners.

On second post you say we should take money to serve server owners.

On third post you try to say we are corrupt.

----

Now, how can we be corrupt if we are not taking bribe to delete negative review.  Don't see how we are corrupt for not taking (your) money to delete review.

Are you the server owner that got a negative review and got angry about it because you afraid a negative review it will hurt your donation income?  You are that server owner that all care about the money only?  If that's the case, RMS definitely do not wish to send players to your server.

You are full of troll and can't make up your mind.



Offline Xellie

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #7 on: Jul 18, 2022, 01:14 am »
Hello everyone.

It's time we discussed this issue. And in this case this post is deleted, I will create another account and post it again, then again, and again. It's time someone talks truthfully about what the RMS Reviewing System has become.

I mean, most RO players use RMS to find out about servers to play in. Some users will access it everyday because they have nothing better to do, but there are others who don't even have an account and create one for the sole purpose of leaving a fake review with the intent of tainting a server's reputation.

And what annoys me the most? yC allows these fake reviews to stay there. Even if they go against RMS's "Guidelines". These "guidelines" have already proven to be there just so they "exist", but yC's decisions are not based on that, quite on the contrary, are very, very arbitrary.

The fact that the most "Recent News" on RMS are from 2017 shows how much yC cares about updating the platform.

The only thing yC really cares about is the money coming in from ads, let's be honest. yC doesn't want to get involved because they don't want to have to deal with the backlash they know will happen afterwards.

RMS's Discord Server? Full of people that hate RO or don't even play it anymore and are just there for the drama.

My suggestion for you, yC? You either disable the Review System or start taking it more seriously, and by it I mean really READ the reviews that are reported and really DELETE them when they go against your "Guidelines".

Because what happens now is players use your Review System (and also the Forum), to turn small frustrations that they felt on a server into FAKE reviews, leaving wrong scores merely to decrease a server's ranking. I mean, if you take a look at a review with a really low score, with hateful content, among other good, legit reviews, and these bad reviews are usually written by someone who created an account on the SAME DAY, it's CLEAR that the purpose of that person is to damage the server's ranking.

And what does yC does about that? NOTHING! She doesn't want to have to bother with that, again, she only cares about the money coming in from ads, so she acts upon reviews as LITTLE as possible because she needs the money from ads and is AFRAID of the backlash players who get their reviews deleted might come with.

This is a message to you, yC: If you intend to keep your Reviewing System the way it is on RMS, then you'd better start paying more attention to it and start deleting that reviews that are FAKE and/or merely done with the purpose of damaging a server. Start reading the other reviews for the same server and really analyze them. Or just get rid of the Reviewing System altogether.

Cause the way it is now, it's a tool that butt hurt players use to transform minor frustrations into a fake, hateful comment, which they know the "admin" of this platform will do NOTHING about.

I'm sad with you, yC. You are in fact very biased on the decisions you take on this platform and you allow toxicity to flourish here.

You either pay more attention to the review reports on your platform, or you can expect us to come soon with full force and we'll make sure to shut you down.

Also, having boards like "Rant and Rave" and "Hall of Shame" is also another way to encourage players to be hateful.

Shame, just a shame.

Username checks out

Offline Inspector Clouseau

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #8 on: Jul 18, 2022, 04:36 am »
I recall a certain someone who often called people babies, gigantic babies, etc and the username CryingBabies seems to fit that. He also zealously attacked multi-clienting, always railing against it. His current server location listed as "AnYtHinG thAt AlLoWs MuLtI-ClIenT AnD AuTo LoOt" shows this mocking hatred.

So I think this is just Lord J venting.  I'm sure he must be heartbroken that his server, which was propped up by fake votes, was delisted, and he's enraged that other servers that he is absolutely certain is guilty of the same thing are not punished.

Well, "CryingBabies", I think you have already had your behind handed to you by the rms owner, but I will reiterate the point that all the insults and threats to post the same deleted stuff over and over again is by far one of the most toxic things on this entire website.

Offline Butt Force

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #9 on: Jul 19, 2022, 08:03 am »
Okay, devil's advocate here:  Crygasm over there does have one valid issue. 

Fake reviews are a thing, and if the Travels saga is anything to go by, there either is low to no effort put forward validating players, or no one has worked out a way of deciding if 1 of the 10 new accounts  all posting things about one server from known proxy IPs with similar typing styles and identical registration dates might possibly include one real person, and therefore none can be deleted.

I mean, yC, come on.  It gets obvious.  Your user base knew Travels was a Potemkin village peopled by sock puppets for almost a full year before you did anything about it.

Maybe new accounts shouldn't be allowed to use the site-based rating system at all without some level of obvious human forum activity and a registration date of a certain age?

Offline Oathkeeper

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #10 on: Jul 19, 2022, 11:42 am »
Sure RMS is a bit dated and still lives in Web 1.0 land for the most part, but it I truly believe without it, the RO community would have died long ago. I can't say how much yC profits off of it, but I'm going to guess not much.

The reviews are always going to be somewhat low quality on any aggregation site and based on what this site is, it's more like an aggregator for server discovery rather than a place to determine which servers are of any actual quality. Determining quality is left up to the player. As for special treatment, OathRO paid for advertising in the past and received no special treatment, that much I can assure you.

Offline Butt Force

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #11 on: Jul 19, 2022, 05:46 pm »
Yo Oath - hypothetically, if you had nothing else in your life but ragnarok server rating quality control (and you somehow managed to endure the hilariously overpowering urge to todestrieb ASAP), how would you vet user ratings?  Or are you thoroughly convinced the task can't be practical?

Offline neethree

Re: RMS: A platform for the toxic
« Reply #12 on: Jul 20, 2022, 06:47 pm »

Maybe new accounts shouldn't be allowed to use the site-based rating system at all without some level of obvious human forum activity and a registration date of a certain age?

I think it's never a good idea to restrict reviews like that, for as much as it's abused there's always people who have not used RMS before that sign up to make a review when prompted.  And you'll never be able to stop fake reviews.

However what you could do is make it more recognisable to readers. Many people looking for server info just take what they see at face value, people don't examine the history of every account reviewing when they're just browsing. A flag or something next to reviewers who are newly registered or have only one review would be a good idea to identify to a reader that the review might be made by a burner account and to exercise caution when forming an opinion.
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