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Server Discussion / Re: Is banning a multi-client stupid?
« Last post by Xellie on Today at 01:00 pm »
I'm not gonna say it to be mean, but there's a reason I don't play Oath.

And that is because I hate being forced into social interaction

"But why are you playing an MMO then?"

I didn't say no interaction!

Anyway, I like that you're solving some of the things - but I'd like to know how me, someone who likes to play assassin, is going to be wanted in parties without playing a mobber that any class can do that. Some classes are just literally designed to play alone. They get hit by a huge disparity or left behind in comparison to groups (that's the choice of playing alone, but takes the class out of being wanted).

There's also... what do you do when new/low level players/new char players dry up? People who are stuck without parties in the "unfun" section of the game (I don't find much below around level 85 to be fun because of burnout I guess).

There are a lot of things that multiclienting solve that I just wanna see answers to.

Also I'm 100% accepting that it's a playstyle people might like or prefer. I don't really nostalgia seek for that era, I've done kicking rocks so I can kick bigger rocks to death, multiple times, on 1x without multi. I've never made a b**** slave priest. I just level things solo until I reach engaging party level (thana/bio/nid/thor) but anything before that (to party) is boring af to me.  (Fyi soloing to me really is just running my HP in town for warps and endowing myself, I never do the autofollow train because walking is frustrating and boring to me. Idk how the multi client train people do it. I'd be bored in 3 mins and I find it... inefficient.)

tbh, it gets dull after a while - hence each to their own. That is the point, right?

But I'll full stand my ground against anyone who says multiclient is the reason partying dies. Cuz it's not. There's a plethora of issues that cause that to happen and blaming multiclients is lazy and poorly thought out.

(btw honest opinion on the alchemist plat skill - that's great but people who play other classes need to take them materials to get their items made too. So unless they make an alche (time drain) they will drain time on mats. Just a thought. It's a good direction you're going in tho :) )
2
Server Discussion / Re: Is banning a multi-client stupid?
« Last post by Sairek Ceareste on Today at 12:44 pm »
    I'll stand by the meat of what I was pointing out. RO is designed in ways that it blows multiclienting into being almost necessary, and if you don't, it moves into unfun mechanics. Linkers, sage endows, there's some other class that usually comes to mind, I can't think what it oh yeah marionette control good fun gameplay amazingly engaging much button pressing wow.

    Speaking of brewing, material requirements being almost doubled by not using MC (anyone wanna MC for me overnight?) + lack of buffs pulls players into hunting over creation or hunting over partying. Because playing without materials isn't actually that fun. Nobody is gonna party to hunt... stems? It's the consumption of time into grinding things on non viable party maps that are the biggest killer IMO.

    Multiclienting, for the information of those that don't know, was made legal very, very early on in the game's life. I can remember the exact patch, because I had lobbied the iRO produce the week before to allow it, because not multiclienting was leading to people editing their clients and finding worse things like... true sight edits. It was before trans. (I'm here with my laptop dual clienting, these people are finding cheats, this is dumb, please end it)

    Regardless of the reasoning of them not being able to prevent cheats (and a valid reason since private servers can) the point here is purely that:
    • it was allowed VERY early on
    • and then a lot of the later game was either built to use that fact (paying for 2 subs for more $$$)
    • or issues that should have been fixed in a single player environment were not fixed.
     

    Unless these things are addressed in concerns about multiclient, there's no reason to regard it as a good thing to ban them. People can't talk about Gravity's intentions unless having actually sat around a table with them (I have  - yes this is a weird flex - and sometimes they were clueless about how the game is played anyway) and even then, some skills and classes make you question the very concept of single client play anyway.

    I'd love to see the game altered to provide a solo client experience that is enjoyable, and viable. But I never see mention of any fixes to any of the things raised - and perhaps at that point the game would be altered so far, it wouldn't be the vanilla experience people think early RO was.


Plenty people have succeeded here so far without it being necessary, though. So is it necessary?

I guess multiclient can make some grind less laborious sure, but fun is subjective, so I don't feel that argument holds water.

For me for example, I got a baby mage (not wizard) to level 99. The first person to not only get a first-class to 99, but the first person to get a baby to level 99 at the same time. Some people don't find locking yourself to a baby first class fun, but I do, because I like that challenge, even if it is hell of a grind.

Some people are doing "hardcore baby novice perma death" runs. Where they can't trade, buy from NPCs, or use storage, and if they die, they delete the character. I don't find that fun. Those people do.

I don't find WoE fun. Some people do.



In other words, the argument really shouldn't be if banning multi-client makes the game impossible to play, because well, people are playing on OathRO without it just fine (granted the server has some changes for quality of life that makes one-client play less annoying, like reducing resting down time). The argument is does banning multi-client make the game not fun.

That answer is subjective, because fun is subjective, and so the answer will change based on a person-by-person basis. I personally say it's not bad, considering I like actually being able to interact with people and I like chilling on just on one toon without having to spam the alt-tab button constantly, and like actually having to play some classes instead of just leeching them up levels. Some people don't like that sort of thing, and that's okay too, but then OathRO probably isn't the server for them, and that's completely fine. The glory of private servers is that if one option doesn't fit you, there's a hundred other options that might.

The ultimate goal of a game existing isn't if it's possible to easily reach maxed out everything efficiently. The goal of a game should be that you can have fun with it, first and foremost before anything else. A game that can be played, but isn't fun, is not a good game that holds much value in my opinion. If the goal is to reach maxed out everything super easily, then you may as well play a super highrate, in my opinion.

Our goal with the server is to keep it somewhat nostalgic, but also fresh and new. Through this, we hope to try and re-live that fresh RO feel people first had 20 years ago, before the game was "solved". People can theory-craft builds again, go on new adventures they haven't seen before, and they can experience that with the rest of the community. We're trying to craft a journey, because to us, that is fun and that is our goal. It would not be much of a journey or experience if people just multi-cliented and powered through everything and quests via sheer number of toons instead of experiencing them with other people, and it's very hard to balance gameplay to someone who multi-clients two accounts, versus someone who decides to multi-client a dozen toons for a full party. You can't really balance for that. At that point, people who don't have the best hardware or internet, or simply don't want to do that are going to fall behind extremely hard and have difficulty playing. But again, some people will value that and have fun with it, and some won't, and they should probably find a different server if it's not what they're looking for.  But I would definitely argue it's not "wrong".

Ultimately, if something is unfun and balanced badly, then our goal is to make it less bad and more fun, but super rewarding things should still be hard so they still have that high value to them. Getting card drops after all would be far less exciting if they just dropped like nothing, but there is also a thing as "too rare". The stress of farming things like stems can easily be fixed by just giving more mobs, even in later content, stem drops, so you're gaining stems whilst doing something else that isn't just killing low level mobs for hours on end all day. We've already done this for witch star sand by expanding the drop to other mobs (some mobs being custom) as just one example.
We've also given alchemists a new platinum skill that allows mobs they defeat to have a chance to drop an alchemy materials, just for them being them, so they're rewarded by just playing, no matter where they are. It isn't much, but it alleviates that frustration a little bit.

Stuff like this helps chip away the grind to feel more manageable, but doesn't invalidate the value and reward of someone who goes hard into it. Releasing the tension at certain frustration points the original game has without outright removing the challenge helps keep the game from becoming annoying and keeps it being fun as the player feels like their time is being rewarded for the amount of work they are putting in.


Again, needing to rest is fine, but having to rest for 3+ minutes straight without HP/SP items or a support duo isn't difficult or challenging; it's just annoying, especially when you're just starting out fresh. However, having moments of downtime and having to resource manage your HP/SP is still an extremely important game element to have, so removing it entirely is out of the question.
Reducing the HP/SP wait time reduces the frustration and the "requirement" of multi-clienting with an acolyte auto following you, or even having a duo in the first place.

These are the kind of changes we're making on the server, aside from the custom content, of course.[/list]
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Server Discussion / Re: Oathro, It's a garbage server.
« Last post by Jem x Rem on Today at 12:30 pm »

I don't ban people I am friends with? /hmm

This is news to me. Who am I apparently friends with, if I may ask?

Definitely not me

lol no friends + L + Ratio + Baby Mage Death  /heh /gg
4
Server Discussion / Re: Oathro, It's a garbage server.
« Last post by Sairek Ceareste on Today at 11:28 am »
This server is a garbage server where only people you know can use dual clients.

If you know or are friendly with the CM or GM, you can conveniently use the buff, warp, coating, and sage attributes at any time as a dual client.

Large guilds and newbies looking for new servers, never do this. garbage server.


I don't ban people I am friends with? /hmm

This is news to me. Who am I apparently friends with, if I may ask?
5
Server Discussion / Re: Oathro, It's a garbage server.
« Last post by Oathkeeper on Today at 11:11 am »
Dual clienting is strictly forbidden on OathRO and staff treats each case, no matter the individual, in the same way. If dual clienting is required when you select a server, OathRO is not the appropriate server for you.
6
Server Discussion / Re: Oathro, It's a garbage server.
« Last post by asdf12345 on Today at 10:52 am »
Don't fool people, Oathro is a garbage server
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Server Discussion / Re: Oathro, It's a garbage server.
« Last post by Rayeth on Today at 10:18 am »
Pls read the rules before joining a server and stop retaliating here when you get banned.
8
Server Discussion / Oathro, It's a garbage server.
« Last post by asdf12345 on Today at 10:14 am »
This server is a garbage server where only people you know can use dual clients.

If you know or are friendly with the CM or GM, you can conveniently use the buff, warp, coating, and sage attributes at any time as a dual client.

Large guilds and newbies looking for new servers, never do this. garbage server.

9
Server Discussion / Re: Pre renewal official server
« Last post by Xellie on Today at 04:00 am »
So what does "Revo-Classic" actually mean. i still dont understand it.

Renewal, but without content.
10
Server Discussion / Re: Is banning a multi-client stupid?
« Last post by Xellie on Today at 01:19 am »
    [/list]

    Why are these things things to begin with? Is it really socializing/partying if a sage is active in your party performing a singular endow on you once every 30 minutes? No, it isn't. It's no wonder endows are multi-cliented.

    Instead of saying "Endows are okay as long as you have a legitimate sage that comes into contact with you once every 30 minutes, but not okay if you're logging on a second character once every 30 minutes." We should be saying "something is not correct with the way endows work, what can we do to address it?"

    Either you dislike the way that the above functions and put some effort and thought into fixing it or you are okay with the above and leave it alone. Banning multi-client is the worst of both worlds: leaving a broken mechanic in place and banning players who try to make the broken mechanic not so crappy to deal with.

    I'll stand by the meat of what I was pointing out. RO is designed in ways that it blows multiclienting into being almost necessary, and if you don't, it moves into unfun mechanics. Linkers, sage endows, there's some other class that usually comes to mind, I can't think what it oh yeah marionette control good fun gameplay amazingly engaging much button pressing wow.

    Speaking of brewing, material requirements being almost doubled by not using MC (anyone wanna MC for me overnight?) + lack of buffs pulls players into hunting over creation or hunting over partying. Because playing without materials isn't actually that fun. Nobody is gonna party to hunt... stems? It's the consumption of time into grinding things on non viable party maps that are the biggest killer IMO.

    Multiclienting, for the information of those that don't know, was made legal very, very early on in the game's life. I can remember the exact patch, because I had lobbied the iRO produce the week before to allow it, because not multiclienting was leading to people editing their clients and finding worse things like... true sight edits. It was before trans. (I'm here with my laptop dual clienting, these people are finding cheats, this is dumb, please end it)

    Regardless of the reasoning of them not being able to prevent cheats (and a valid reason since private servers can) the point here is purely that:
    • it was allowed VERY early on
    • and then a lot of the later game was either built to use that fact (paying for 2 subs for more $$$)
    • or issues that should have been fixed in a single player environment were not fixed.
     

    Unless these things are addressed in concerns about multiclient, there's no reason to regard it as a good thing to ban them. People can't talk about Gravity's intentions unless having actually sat around a table with them (I have  - yes this is a weird flex - and sometimes they were clueless about how the game is played anyway) and even then, some skills and classes make you question the very concept of single client play anyway.

    I'd love to see the game altered to provide a solo client experience that is enjoyable, and viable. But I never see mention of any fixes to any of the things raised - and perhaps at that point the game would be altered so far, it wouldn't be the vanilla experience people think early RO was.
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