Is Ragnarok dead?

Started by DeadOwnz, Apr 27, 2011, 12:05 AM

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snowblind

For competitive players, the game is pretty dead. WoE just feels pointless now. Install a bunch of tools, then stack up with some strangers and hold down this button for 1 hour. BG is slightly more interesting. You actually need to think for yourself and make the most of your class. Unless, ofcourse, you're a creo and there's no clown, then just turn on your afk script and wait for the badges. The game is broken beyond repair.

RO is just badly designed in general. It was only fun because of the people who played it, and the weird unique charm it had when we first started. If somehow you still find pvm entertaining after all these years, then I guess the game hasn't died for you just yet. But at some point you will ask yourself why you were wasting your time doing the same things over and over, trying to satisfy your nostalgia but knowing it will never feel the same.

Playtester

I'd claim the original RO had great game design. It's just that it was designed with different players in mind. Players that like to role play a character. Players that like to explore a huge world. Players that want to grow alongside the character they play.

I don't think the original design intended it to become a game where everybody only cares about winning and does everything to accomplish that.

Yuzo

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PM
I've been playing RO since early 2005, 9.5 years or so.  In the last decade I have gone through tons of servers, private and official. I feel like posting why the game is dead to me nowadays. I didn't draft this or anything, and I might not have all of my motor functions intact right now, so bear with me.

My background is primarily in competitive lowrate or official servers, and I feel like the golden age was really 2006-2008. Ever since then I have been desperately searching for a similar experience, but I've decided it really doesn't exist. While I love this game, I hate how it's played nowadays. I have other projects, ambitions, and games in life, so I can't spend all my time playing the s*** we see today.

There are two major issues: Player attitude and Renewal. I think player attitude is the one worth talking about more, but to touch on Renewal real fast...

It's bad. There's no good game design in Renewal. The classes added aren't well thought out, and skills don't mesh. Sprites and effects look out of place or messy, lots of effects are re-used. When transc came out, it was hailed as the end of RO. They got a bit more HP/SP, and some important skills central to how the classes were built, but it destroyed the game until proper balancing, updates, etc came into play. It took a bit of time for the meta to catch up with the new content transc brought - it got there, but it took time. Now check out how many new skills Champs got when transc came out, it says 4 here. Now check out Sura, I don't want to count. Add that onto stat rebalances, map changes, etc... all this new content coming in, none of it adding to the core design, all of it clashing with each other, none of it having time to develop on itself, it's just bad.

It was a poorly executed desperate attempt for Gravity to save officials, and it sort of worked on jRO, but overall it's just a horrible game. They adopted game design philosophy from other MMORPGs and created this weird mash-up of oldschool RO vs newschool quest systems and it is constantly clashing. I believe that the majority of players who play renewal will probably play just about anything. Fullscreen everything isn't exactly interesting, either. Of course renewal also means that pre-renewal doesn't really get updates, and when it does they're stupid and broken (scaraba), so yeah that's bad too.

With that out the way, what I actually want to talk about is the RO community's player attitude, which I believe has completely ruined all pre-renewal servers.

I don't think I'm just being a nostalgic old man when I call 2006-2008 the golden age. I'd probably extend that into 2009 with servers like ChronosV3 and EternityROv3, but those were the beginning of the end. Anwyays, at that time the game wasn't quite optimized yet but people were always genuinely trying to make new builds and playstyles, and they often did. The main component from back then, which is missing nowadays, is investment. Authentic investment in your character, guild, guildmates, castle, items, etc. RO's competitive aspects (and it is a competitive game) only work on low-rates. I mean, the whole game was designed to be experienced on rates 50-1000x lower than what we play now, and while sure hunting for a card for 4 weeks is retarded, don't you guys think the issue is a little more complex than that, and we might be pushing other aspects of the game out along with those cons?

Low-rates allow interaction between guilds to occur to PVM and drive investment in WoE by making castle invest matter. Guilds that are rival in WoE and PVM crossover a lot, and you get cool s*** like bio MVP competition or just general harassing in PVM, which is a blast. You also spend a lot of time with your guild mates and it creates a pretty strong bond there, nowadays you just BG together for a bit and that's about it. Much different than spending 12 hours a day grinding boring s*** on voice chat, just talking a bunch to get to know someone, for weeks and weeks on end.

Decent players got sick of starting over from scratch though – they played enough low-rates. Obviously, the end-game was the most fun part of the game, with all of its competitive aspects... so, people started making high-rate servers aimed at the competitive community so that they could just hop on, play for a couple weeks, be all geared up and ready to WoE/BG. This actually wasn't so bad at first – if anything it felt like a "short break" from low-rates.

Competitive high-rates did well for a little bit, super WoEs and servers like ChronosV2 or VisionsV1 were a nice break from low-rates (people usually played them in between versions of servers like Eternity). But inevitably those high-rates didn't last long, and eventually all the guilds and players who mattered just quit, or became relatively apathetic. BG supplier, healer, and warper destroyed partying, and at first it wasnt a big deal since everyone was a tightknit guild from lowrates, but nowadays it means PVM is straight up solo fest or dead. Half the game is gone.

PVM usually drives PVP, i.e. your pots, AD mats, etc all actually matter. Champs, when was the time you didn't asura a wizard because you thought "I dont want to waste the blues, a sin or something can take care of that." Hint: years ago. When was the last time you hit an LK or Pally, knowing it wouldn't die, but laughed on vent saying "haha, look at the whites he's wasting." When's the last time creators didn't control the whole f*** game because they only bombed when s*** got real, and it actually felt intense? Long, long ago.

Really ridiculous gear also became standard. Gear that was usually unavailable on private servers, and very limited on officials in the form of event prizes, has become widely available. Holy Marcher Hat [1], Sunnies [1], lower headgear that gives redux and stats, etc... it has become "If my creator doesn't have full redux set on, doesn't have unlimited bombs, AND can't stun, all after playing for 2 weeks or less, I don't wanna bother."

Then there's the blatant straight up cheating, which has made us all play like s***. I think RCX is a good tool. I think it should end there.

WoE GRFs showing dispells or removing all tiles from a castle, AHK, RO Medic, PotNDD with its hax-donkey freewalk s***, adelay, the list goes on. RO has had cheaters forever, people have been using AHK for a really long time, but it was something you wanted to hide. You didn't want to be blatant about cheating, so you toned down your hax. If you were labelled as a cheater, you were shunned; looked down upon as a s*** try-hard player trying to get an edge. It slowly became more accepted to where now the reverse is true; literally if you don't cheat your donkey off, even if you are a good player, you stand no chance against scrubby creators, and they will constantly kill you then call you a noob. It's so bizarre. Just because you can spam skills faster doesnt make the game more interesting, and it doesnt make you a good player. It just means you have some scripts. Good players were doing that long before you, without the crutches. Seriously, learn to play.

And that's the summary of the issue: try-hards. Try hard WPE wannabes is all that's left in RO. Everyone wants to be an e-super star, everyone thinks they're sweet. A lot of people are even imitating the way oldschool guilds TALK, and it's become sort of the "RO language", so they probably dont even realize it. This game has gotten pretty bad with all this, not to mention the competition isnt even good.

This post is too long so I'm gonna end it. Basically screw this game's current direction and f*** all you 3PP players, really ruined something interesting.

Here's to hoping Tree of Savior is fun!
Great post Sophia! I was involved with a few players who would go way way way out of their way to find any way to break the game. I'm talking about exploring every avenue to win: best mvping ways, best woe strategies, ways to get advantages (cheats).


These guys were often guild leaders or highly respected players, meaning their attitudes often rubbed off on subordinates. I myself am guilty for creating a guild on a server after learning from the best (the worst) and leading my team down these footsteps.


Social aspect was definitely the best part of RO. Have to say I miss the chat in-game and especially on the forums (I'm looking at you off-topic forum and guild trash-talking!).

SupremusRO

Nope not dead, if you are referring to the original servers. But most of the private server out there wont even last for 2months.

newalex

Quote from: SupremusRO on Oct 14, 2014, 07:24 PM
But most of the private server out there wont even last for 2months.

there are at least 1 big known company offering free vps 1 year and can handle 500-1000 players at same time, so basicaly u can have free host for ever if ur smart enough.

Playtester

I don't think it's a financial problem that so many servers go down so fast.

globalro

 /omg Ragnarok died?  /heh we have to make him still alive  /no1

Oniichan

Quote from: SupremusRO on Oct 14, 2014, 07:24 PM
Nope not dead, if you are referring to the original servers. But most of the private server out there wont even last for 2months.

Yeah, it's sad. most admins nowadays are either lazy, money-hungry or just plain corrupt. :\

Rider

RO is not dead but it's not what it used to be anymore. I used to enjoy WoE a few years back until cheats spread out like wildfire and everyone started using all sorts of 3pps to win it, desperate much? They call it the new meta these days and anyone not using a macro for classes like chemist is called a loser. Even the people who try to bring back the nostalgia in the game are not very strict about the use of 3pp because they are scared of losing players or pissing off some big guild. But we can't blame the players who use it alone, look at those stupid servers that openly allow the use of 3pp because all they care is player count and not running a proper game.

MrMystery

Quote from: Playtester on Oct 20, 2014, 06:59 AM
I don't think it's a financial problem that so many servers go down so fast.

If anything, this might be part of the problem. Everyone and their mother can open up a server with how cheap it is now. Just further dividing what's left of the RO population.

Orange

Quote from: Rider on Feb 17, 2015, 08:23 PM
RO is not dead but it's not what it used to be anymore. I used to enjoy WoE a few years back until cheats spread out like wildfire and everyone started using all sorts of 3pps to win it, desperate much? They call it the new meta these days and anyone not using a macro for classes like chemist is called a loser. Even the people who try to bring back the nostalgia in the game are not very strict about the use of 3pp because they are scared of losing players or pissing off some big guild. But we can't blame the players who use it alone, look at those stupid servers that openly allow the use of 3pp because all they care is player count and not running a proper game.

Yeap, all the pro's have adapted to
:3

GM TruFlip1011

graphic wise, ragnarok had a greatest idea of making this 2d. and animeish. i personally love the graphics. artworks. all of it. i wouldnt even wanna play a server with 3d sprites. it just kills "RO" for me that's one thing that's always made RO unique. and that is going to live for a very long time.

IvoryMouse

RO isn't dead. The game has been running for over 10 years strong and will continue to prosper. Renewal is like the problem child apart of a 3 child house hold. You have the first child, which was base classes, the second child which was 2nd Jobs, then the third whiney totally bratty and spoiled child which is Renewal. Renewal tossed balance out of the window and replaced it with one word. "Global Cooldown." Every class has it now, which is what ruined the game entirely. RO is supposed to be fast paced, not like WoW where you're waiting on skills. But I digress.

Another thing, a lot of servers don't last due to the racial diversity. The "international" servers being the biggest culprits of this. It just attacks one of two crowds. The Indonesian players or the Brazilian players, neither which hold a very good reputation among English speaking players. There is a fine line drawn between all three, I hate to say it but I don't like playing with either player, but I put up with it. Every server I go to is swamped with either A or B. The lack of actual English speaking players is amazing, considering how many of us speak English on these forums. It also amazes me how an English Only server doesn't even enforce their rules and it draws in the worst of those players who are insubordinate towards rules.

RO once again isn't dead, simply put, people grew up and found other games to play or moved on in their lives to start a family or pursue careers which would make them happy. RO was the game you'd come home to after a hard day of school, call up three or four of your friends and do three/four way calling and just hang out online. I know I did. RO was a game made for cooperation and fundamentals with your friends, but the way people act and the way this new generation of players are leaves much less to be desired. Making friends on Ragnarok Online has become a chore and it's even worse on private servers, since a lot of players are hermits and keep to themselves.

As far as admins go I've never had an issue except with iHeartRO and Boo Boo Kitty, she was the only real corrupt GM. She catered to a lot of her inner circle friends and did absolutely nothing about forum harassment/in-game harassment when it went down and even went as far to admitting that she allows trolling to a severe degree.  Luckily for me, her server no longer exist, but that is the only time where I saw a GM just not give a s*** about their players unless they were kissing taint and by kissing I mean tonguing. A lot of GM's I see are either AFK or answer basic questions. Never had any real issues with them on other servers, it's just people who run their mouths are the ones GMs go after either that or people who are pretty damn stupid and abuse bugs/exploits then come on RMS and cover up their lies with false reports claiming "they did nothing wrong". The game itself isn't dying, it's the community as a whole that is dying and at this rate the decay is going to continue into a downward spiral.

Overall the game itself is fine, there's plenty to do. It's just the community that makes the game unplayable for some.
Looking for: English/NA RO Server. 255/50 Pre-Renewal (Non-Kiel Based) Server OR Highly Custom 2nd Job Renewal Server. No Pay To Win.

Chojiro

#133
Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PM
Really ridiculous gear also became standard. Gear that was usually unavailable on private servers, and very limited on officials in the form of event prizes, has become widely available. Holy Marcher Hat [1], Sunnies [1], lower headgear that gives redux and stats, etc... it has become "If my creator doesn't have full redux set on, doesn't have unlimited bombs, AND can't stun, all after playing for 2 weeks or less, I don't wanna bother."
Gear is so ridiculous, but it still didn't drastically change the meta. And lol @ unlimited bombs, seems guilds had no problem farming for them on iro.

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PM
Then there's the blatant straight up cheating, which has made us all play like s***. I think RCX is a good tool. I think it should end there.
Blame the delays which make people use AHK, not the people. If anybody thinks smashing one button as fast as you can is fun then who cares. The funny thing is if the delay is increased people whine because that's the whole reason why RO is intense.

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PM
WoE GRFs showing dispells
Yeah, if you have effects on or use other things. RO looks like a mess with effects on and it's one of the bad points of the game, most spell effects are gigantic and block what you actually want to see - the characters.

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PMor removing all tiles from a castle
Because rotating the camera is so much fun and adds so much to the game.

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PMadelay
Actually this prevents some cheats.


Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PMeven if you are a good player, you stand no chance against scrubby creators
I have no idea what the context for this is, but a scrub creo is still s*** even with AHK.

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PMJust because you can spam skills faster doesnt make the game more interesting
But many people like it because it makes the game more intense. That is not my opinion btw.

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PMand it doesnt make you a good player. It just means you have some scripts. Good players were doing that long before you, without the crutches. Seriously, learn to play.
But a long time ago most people weren't even good. Where were the good players when the cheaters came along? The inferior players were always the one who got rekt unless there was gm corruption at hand. Most classes don't even need cheats. You are still s*** if you are a s*** player.


Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PMnot to mention the competition isnt even good.
I have no idea who you are talking about, but please, show me your epic play and your epic guilds.

Quote from: Sophia on Oct 10, 2014, 12:39 PMThis post is too long so I'm gonna end it. Basically screw this game's current direction and f*** all you 3PP players, really ruined something interesting.
zzzzz


If you are really so good, join a guild and show your performance, a lot of servers nowadays have ranking for woe.
beep beep

excellence.ragnarok

Quote from: Playtester on Oct 20, 2014, 06:59 AM
I don't think it's a financial problem that so many servers go down so fast.

The best answer is , how they make the players stay and loyal to your server ^^