Difference between pre renewal and renewal RO

[Fruit Pie~]

Fruit Pie, in pre-renewal you can actually survive those strong attacks even in the newer regions. I assume you are referring to regions like Thor Volcano and New World, right? Well I saw videos from Doddler where he fully geared only takes ~700 damage there. This is because of 65 DEF + Racial Reduction + Neutral Reduction + Assumptio. You can basically divide the damage by 10 with that.

Yes, admittedly, Doddler is super well geared (and plays really well, his videos are kind of inspirational). But you might notice in, say, his Nidhoggur or Thanatos solo videos, he gets one-shot from time to time. This is a man with some of the best possible gear on the highest HP character.

Also, I think he has Ghostring on when he's fighting the Kasas or their Spiral Pierce might be much weaker in official servers because there's no way he could be taking so little damage - Spiral Pierce on mobs, at least in private servers, uses the mob's maximum attack as weapon weight. Kasas are using a 3500 ATK Spiral Pierce with a 3500 weight spear.

This is mainly because on official servers there was so much gear and also MVP cards already, that the monsters were adjusted to work with that.

On low rate private server this is kind of problematic.

It would be an idea to manually adjust the damage on private servers to be more balanced, harder than renewal, but easier than official Thor/New World pre-renewal. The problem is, the moment you adjust something players will complain about it not being official and it's also hard to justify it. I myself could only accept it if there was a clear rule on how it is modified (e.g. 3x renewal damage), but even that feels too custom, so not sure...

You were SO CLOSE, then bam. No customs allowed. I dunno, man, surely you can agree the "RO experience" wouldn't be harmed by some number tweaking? Like Kasas doing, say, a little more than half damage. Or Cornus going down from 13k damage to something that's not entirely stupid. Just consider players with things you CAN reasonably acquire in low-rate servers when modifying their damage output and you're golden - I say +4 or +7 basic set, normal mob cards ie no MVP/miniboss, Assumptio in higher level dungeons (Thor, Scaraba, Bio 3).

Also, curiously, Kasas do 3x renewal damage right now, a bit less even! Renewal Kasa hits for 1300, regular Kasa hits for 3500.

[RoseTea]

The problem is, the moment you adjust something players will complain about it not being official and it's also hard to justify it.

Nobody would complain about this.  Also, it's easy to justify it, here, let me try to think of at least one reason...

This is mainly because on official servers there was so much gear and also MVP cards already, that the monsters were adjusted to work with that.

On low rate private server this is kind of problematic.

Oh.  Thanks for that.

but even that feels too custom, so not sure...

Don't focus on what is or is not custom.  Focus on what makes a solid, well-designed game.  If a change creates a better gameplay experience, absolutely nobody should care if it's official (Official by what year?  What episode?  What nationality of "official" server?  What [arbitrary distinction]?) or not.

[Hermos]

If you think partying doesn't work with MvPs, you either don't have enough gear (yes, MvPing should be an endgame activity and no, I'm not talking about using MvP cards/custom godlike equipment) or you don't know how to play. Party works really well against MvPs if you and your party knows what to do. I find it really difficult to understand how you can say that.

[Fruit Pie~]

Well, MVPing was always an endgame thing. It's just that you could reasonably solo many MVPs pre-Einbroch with the right class and the right gear. Even post-Einbroch small parties were good, you could definitely duo or trio most stuff, and some were still soloable.

Post-Veins, though? I can't imagine how you beat Ifrit without the age old trick of taking a large group of people to just stand around and take EQ damage while a Star Gladiator and a Professor (both with Ghostring) glitch him to death with Heat. And that's after they nerfed the Ankle Snare bug that allowed you to MVP quickly and easily. And the Ice Wall bug that did the same. Unless, of course, that's "knowing what you're doing". If so, fair enough, but it's always great when a game relies on you abusing bugs to actually beat content.

But let's assume something not as absurd as Ifrit. Orc Hero's Spiral Pierce is going to mess you up and they fixed the Safety Wall bug that blocked it at melee range (which made it entirely doable as a duo). The best non-Creator party to take down Orc Hero is a few Champions and a Bragi'd (or Kiel'd) High Priest, by abusing his relatively low HP count to three-shot him before he can one-shot you. Or you could just make a Creator and solo AD every oldschool MVP by abusing damage delay and fly wings to bug your way out of Earthquake/Hell Judgement. Exciting boss fights!

tl;dr : I enjoy PVE content that doesn't require boss cards, bug abuse, entire guilds or all three. RO was much better before the absolute pits of despair that were episodes 10 and 11. (have I mentioned this yet?)

[Playtester]

So basically you would want a server that is basically pre-renewal but rebalances the later episode monsters (and MVPs) to not expect people having boss cards?

Yeah if you allow yourself unlimited freedom, you basically can make RO a greater game, but I don't really see the majority of the players actually wanting that. The big servers also are already pretty custom so might as well play on those. TalonRO made a different approach by just giving easy access to Kaho's Horns and MVP cards.

Why I still prefer official is because first of all if I check databases and stuff on the internet they will of course only contain official stats. And secondly, if I play on a server and say he gave new world mobs 1000~1500 damage I'd think "how did he calculate thosen numbers? why not 2000~3000?".

[RoseTea]

And secondly, if I play on a server and say he gave new world mobs 1000~1500 damage I'd think "how did he calculate thosen numbers? why not 2000~3000?".

This is amusing because I can play on official servers, ask the same question and it'd be equally legitimate.  Why is the Gold Acidus so much higher HP than the Blue Acidus?  Why is it, apparently, more XP-HP efficient to kill?  Why does Eddga have exactly 7o Str and do 1215-1565?  Couldn't they smooth that out to 1200-1500?  Why does it drop Elunium at exactly 23%, was 25 too overpowered?  Heck, why do Porings have a chance to drop 2 apples and have a water-based attack?  Why are the 20k+ damaging Pom Spiders still only barely more HP:XP efficient as the much easier Stings?  Speaking of Stings, 4081 is quite a number to end up at for experience.  How'd they come up with it?

Your quote implies that A. You understand and accept how Gravity came up with their own numbers, and B. It's impossible for somebody else to re-create that.  Actually a better question: if somebody DID explain how they calculated their numbers, would you still find it objectionable?  Since I don't recall Gravity ever doing us even that favor.

[Hermos]

I believe he's talking about how a server would include renewal mobs on a pre-renewal mechanics. I mean, what's the justificative for having such values. In an official server, they are *meant* to be like that, thus there's no need to make such questions.

[Playtester]

Well I think basically when Gravity changes something like making mobs harder or changing the spawns. You change it on your server. Players will tell you "Why? Before it was much better." and then you can reason it with "It's an official update" and maybe provide some proof if you're cool and then players will accept it (at least not blame you, but rather Gravity).

However if you start and say: The monsters in the new world will now have 3x their renewal attack rather than their official pre-renewal values. Then you have players complain about this change and probably quit the server because it's too custom.

If the majority of players would favour something like completely rebalancing everything about RO to make it really balanced, then the majority would play on e.g. MouRO because Skotlex managed that really well. But yet he can still be happy if his playerbase goes into the 2 digit area.

On a sidenote, I really like the original RO design were all drop rates were pretty strange like 23.65% instead of rounding it, because that makes it simply more interesting. Since the original designer left RO all those values are pretty boring. =.=

I'm thinking about it a lot lately, because what I'm trying to do is writing a converter that converts renewal stats to the pre-renewal system and it works quite well for most stats by using statistical evaluation, but for those harder regions it doesn't fit. For example if you want a Scaraba Hole in pre-renewal that feels like the renewal one you would only need give them around 6000 attack but all the older new world monsters have 8000+ attack on pre-renewal and on renewal Scarabas actually have the highest attack in the whole new world, but 6000 is lower than 8000. So basically you'd now also apply a damage reduction on those older monsters so it actually makes sense, but then it'll be hard to explain that you are still a close-to-official pre-renewal server because "Gravity would have done the same". Even if your calculations are perfect player will still not believe you.

I personally am also very strict to the "close to official" principle simply because I often show RO to new players and I want them to experience RO the way I did when I played it the first time because RO is still my favorite MMORPG of all times and I don't think it would have been if I started playing it just now.

But even being strict I'd actually find that if at least Thor and New World were rebalanced, that would actually be a good thing. A server that feels like official pre-renewal server, but is still rebalanced to not consider everyone having boss cards. That's why I'm also interested in what you think about it, because I'm quite surprised that you really seem to be in favour of such a change because I still think most people don't like too many custom changes, especially if they mess with the core data like monster stats.

My favorite regions in pre-renewal RO are Thanatos Tower and Cursey Abbey, because they have exactly the difficulty I like. Really hard and you need to be scared to die on a single mistake, but still somehow doable with good non-boss gear.
In renewal everything is too easy for me.

[Triper]

I'm thinking about it a lot lately, because what I'm trying to do is writing a converter that converts renewal stats to the pre-renewal system and it works quite well for most stats by using statistical evaluation, but for those harder regions it doesn't fit. For example if you want a Scaraba Hole in pre-renewal that feels like the renewal one you would only need give them around 6000 attack but all the older new world monsters have 8000+ attack on pre-renewal and on renewal Scarabas actually have the highest attack in the whole new world, but 6000 is lower than 8000. So basically you'd now also apply a damage reduction on those older monsters so it actually makes sense, but then it'll be hard to explain that you are still a close-to-official pre-renewal server because "Gravity would have done the same". Even if your calculations are perfect player will still not believe you.

Finally someone works on what I've been talked about for ages that was needed to fix the gap between pre-renewal and renewal ;o Kudos to you.

I always though that this was a necessary thing and dunno why nobody ever made it before[well, the reason it's pretty much what you already told up there, that weird thing between stats doesn't help but this is like a must to clean the gap of "no updates" between styles of servers - pre-renewal/renewal].

[Fruit Pie~]

I agree with you on wanting to experience RO the way it was, which is actually the reason I'm all for tweaking numbers. I got into RO way back in the Amatsu update, when the hardest mobs hit for less than 1k and the most damage an MVP could ever hit you for was Baphomet's absurd 16k damage Brandish Spear (you needed a Swordsman class to tank him!). You could do most content in the game naked and solo, but it took a lot of resources! Gear and support were the difference between spending millions of zeny in consumables or just a few thousand.

Nowadays, with Gravity being up-front about their utter hatred of melee classes and Priests, I just wish they'd go back to the old design of things that hit hard but not too hard and strained your resources depending on your setup, rather than being the boring, binary "you get one shot" or "you're unkillable" thing that the latest pre-Renewal content currently is. Renewal TRIED but ultimately went way overboard on the damage reduction, especially among regular mobs.

And about databases, it's relatively easy to set up your own database search for your custom database. Pre-Trans servers basically HAVE to do that, and in the ones I've played with a custom online database they seem to work pretty well!

I love Thanatos Tower as well, I feel it's the best dungeon in the game along with the Endless Tower. Why not balance damage around that dungeon? Nothing there hits so hard that a dedicated tank can't be healed/potted through it. The mobs that ARE exceedingly dangerous (Odium, Sentinel) are gimmick mobs that keep you on your toes, but are eminently counterable and will only ruin your day if you let them. It even offers decent rewards for the risks if you're in a party, which is more than you can say about Thor or the New World!

FAKE EDIT : Alas, poor MouRO. I knew it, Playtester; A server of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy; I have played it a thousand times, and now, abhorred in my imagination it is!

On a more serious note about it, I feel the difference between MouRO and what we're trying to get at here is the scope of changes - one's a sweeping, global customization to make RO feel like a different game (better in some regards, worse in others), the other is just number tweaking and balancing to change RO's PVM dynamic for a faster-paced, less gear-dependent experience more akin to oldschool RO.

[foodguy]

i would like to add on another question, are the stats and effects given by gears different in pre-renewal and renewal too?
unfortunately i cannot remember which gear was it that i saw

[Playtester]

Yes they are different. You get a lot more DEF in renewal than you got in pre-renewal for example, due to the different ways DEF works (in pre-renewal 100 DEF makes you basically invincible, in renewal you'd need 4000 DEF to get close to that).

Also some other bonuses have changed as well, for example refine bonuses have been added for refines above +10.

[holocauseRO]

playing more non renewal server cuz

3rd jobs have imbalance skill but i really like all of them

what i hate is how slow your cast will be

in renewal you can reach 190 aspd easily

and its a bit hard to unlock items since you need gears fo pref on a mr server for easy drops

stats are better and they balanced bleed chance

[Astraeos]

Completely different game mechanics. One of the largest charges in PvM was Physical Damage vs Magic Damage from monsters. Physical damage from monsters is almost non-existent, I take 80s from things in Scaraba on a Shadow Chaser/Creator as well as I usually have 80%+ flee without the flee reduction from multiple monsters. But take nearly 15k fireballs from Kasas without fire armor. Mental Strength is actually one of my favorite changes. Like Playtester said, PvM too easy. WoE is kinda retarded right now.

[sheena]

Who are the designers of RO? I know its Gravity but I'm looking for people accountable to it.