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Offline AnimaRagnarokOnline

[Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« on: Mar 11, 2016, 01:23 PM »
Hello guys, I want feed back with regards to some skill tweaks I've made to the assassin class.

NOTE: THIS IS CLASSIC, PRE-TRANS, NO ASSASSIN CROSS OKAY?

First, let's start with Dual Dagger Sins.

Venom Splasher
 - Removed HP Requirement
 - Lowered Explosion time from 9 seconds -> 5 seconds
 - Lowered Recast time from 12 seconds -> 7 seconds
 - Increased damage to 1200% ATK
 - Every level of Poison React improves the damage done by Venom Splasher (800% ATK on level 10)

Right Hand Mastery
 - Increase attackspeed by 35% on level 5 [ Includes Katar Weapons ]
Left Hand Mastery
 - Increase attackspeed by 35% on level 5 [ Includes Katar Weapons ]

--

Now for Katar Sins

Grimtooth Damage
 - Increased Damage done
 - The closer you are to the target, the higher the damage, the further you are, the lesser damage it deals

Sonic Blow
 - Increased Damage done

Crit Sins will love this

Poison React
 - 8% crit damage per level, up to 80% crit damage at level 10
Enchant Poison
 - 8% crit damage per level, up to 80% crit damage at level 10

-- Note COMBO Cards are disabled and Paper/Mobster cards are non existent, so no way to bolster your crit damage by using card modifiers at this server.


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Offline Blinzer

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #1 on: Mar 12, 2016, 12:07 AM »
Hello guys, I want feed back with regards to some skill tweaks I've made to the assassin class.

NOTE: THIS IS CLASSIC, PRE-TRANS, NO ASSASSIN CROSS OKAY?

First, let's start with Dual Dagger Sins.

Venom Splasher
 - Removed HP Requirement
 - Lowered Explosion time from 9 seconds -> 5 seconds
 - Lowered Recast time from 12 seconds -> 7 seconds
 - Increased damage to 1200% ATK
 - Every level of Poison React improves the damage done by Venom Splasher (800% ATK on level 10)

Right Hand Mastery
 - Increase attackspeed by 35% on level 5 [ Includes Katar Weapons ]
Left Hand Mastery
 - Increase attackspeed by 35% on level 5 [ Includes Katar Weapons ]

--

Now for Katar Sins

Grimtooth Damage
 - Increased Damage done
 - The closer you are to the target, the higher the damage, the further you are, the lesser damage it deals

Sonic Blow
 - Increased Damage done

Crit Sins will love this

Poison React
 - 8% crit damage per level, up to 80% crit damage at level 10
Enchant Poison
 - 8% crit damage per level, up to 80% crit damage at level 10

-- Note COMBO Cards are disabled and Paper/Mobster cards are non existent, so no way to bolster your crit damage by using card modifiers at this server.

not bad for your first balancing attempt, but you scaled venom splasher way too hard for such a clunky move

it would be better if you hit how fast it can be casted than make the damage insane

Offline AnimaRagnarokOnline

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #2 on: Mar 12, 2016, 06:23 PM »
Venom Splasher generally takes out any low hp class with one or two casts, of course to achieve this, the player will have full str build, and a dual dagger build as well. It's quite hard to achieve the maximum damage potential since they will be sacrificing tons of skill points to invest in this kind of build which is why I deemed it was balanced.

They will only be limited to one offensive skill, which is Venom Splasher, and that is it. I tested it on a no equip character, and it hit the character around 5~7k damage.

--

Still looking for a way to balance Venom Splasher more efficiently though

Offline Jessie Rocket

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #3 on: Mar 12, 2016, 09:48 PM »
I think we could more focus on what the Sin is already and could do with that skill.

For exemple, Venom Splasher could also have a debuff on the ennemy the time it's waiting to explode.

It could be a long hit as it already is, but which can be ended manually and of course, remove the HP condition, and then it would be like "For 7 seconds, the target has a reduce armor of 5*SkillLVL%DEF (so 50% max, not on Boss-Type monsters) and all physical attacks on the target improve the final damage of +30% dmg (or +60% dmg if the trigger is a Poison Property attack) the final dmg of the attack to a maximum of 1000% more dmg (so 2000% total dmg). Those dmg are improved by 10% of the removed HP of the target (so if someone has 20%HP, he loses 10% of 80% of his life, which means +8% max HP of the target (and on 20% left, it's a lot counting the others dmg". You can reactivate the skill before it stops by reselecting the skill (and even while Sonic Blow).

Well, it's just a try.


And if I had to buff something on the Sin, actually, it would be to make people able to select the SkillLVL of Grimtooth, because we are forced to use to max one we got, while the start of the skill is not range dmg but melee dmg. Which can add some depth to the gameplay.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2016, 09:56 PM by Jessie Rocket »

Offline AnimaRagnarokOnline

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #4 on: Mar 13, 2016, 10:12 AM »
The source for Venom Splasher is kind of different compared to the other skills and we are still making tests.

Offline Blinzer

Re: Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #5 on: Mar 15, 2016, 08:35 PM »
Venom Splasher generally takes out any low hp class with one or two casts, of course to achieve this, the player will have full str build, and a dual dagger build as well. It's quite hard to achieve the maximum damage potential since they will be sacrificing tons of skill points to invest in this kind of build which is why I deemed it was balanced.

They will only be limited to one offensive skill, which is Venom Splasher, and that is it. I tested it on a no equip character, and it hit the character around 5~7k damage.

--

Still looking for a way to balance Venom Splasher more efficiently though

So obviously you found the real problem here, but are reluctant to fix it?

Remove the ridiculous skill point requirement if that is the main thing impeding balance

...

Offline mhb004

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #6 on: Mar 16, 2016, 05:12 AM »
Imo 1200% attack is too much /omg would be fun if you lower the damage but can apply elements like fire/wind etc. and about the attackspeed part on the masteries isn't 35% too much? cause at 50% you can already reach 190 with awakes and agi

Offline Jessie Rocket

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #7 on: Mar 16, 2016, 09:05 AM »
It already is the case, it already takes the element of the weapon you're wielding.
It even takes the Ice Pick effect in count.
It works with Lex Aeterna.

+X dmg effects do work (Zipper Bear Card / Porcellio Card / Volcano bonus on players with Fire Armor),
but +%dmg effects do not work (Hydra Card, Masquerade) which means that it by passes Cast-Off Ciceda Shell of Ninjas ("Any attach that doesn't HIT will bypass it" according to that quote of annaquin).

Placed on someone who wants to get cloaked, it will end to hit him so he will be shown, which means that if you have a Box of Sunlight (or Maya Purple card, lol), you can see his shadow and follow him for when he will be shown.

Chance to Poison = 10 + 4*SkillLVL (so from 14% to 50% chance to poison)

iRoWiki : If the target hides during the explosion, all damage will be cancelled but the chance to poison the target remains.

I think the purpose of the skill is to create a gigantic bomb which will end explosing on someone else for the dommage there was on the targeted character (but I'm not 100% sure) so for exemple, you can use a Water monster to Venom splash him with a Wind weapon, and then you will do a lot of dmg on a Neutral monster beside.

On a "WoE Guardian master", I succeeded to make it a bomb of an average of 115k dmg (min : 82k, max : 150k. All legit, look at the link below), but yea, some conditions to do that :
http://calcx.wushuang.ws/?cawbLbibLababbLazacdbbaj0hfqfqfqaajXefqaaaaaakPaad5aaeujUc7fbhXfoe4fFbNfFbNeeejaiaaaaaaaabkkaaEaaqbAkaafbbbaabaaaaimacfa8aaaHaaaa

You need a Sage to Endow Fire you, he Elemental change the monster into Earth, he Volcano you while you got the Fire Armor [1] from Ifrit with a Porcellio Card in it.
You need a Priest to boost you and Lex Aeterna your bomb.
You need a Soul Linker to Eske the Abysmal Knight and upgrade its DEF value.
And you need a Swordmaster class (or a Super Novice ;) ) to get Provoke lvl10.

And just look at the build I linked for the SinX ;)

And the whole is even stronger if you manage to even have a duo Bard Dancer to boost you again with Battle Theme.

Oh, and I think that http://calcx.wushuang.ws doesn't even take Poison React bonus dmg, so... ;)

In WoE, you can create a bomb with an ally not in your guild, so he goes explose on others on purpose for you. With Alice Card + Deviling Card + a max of DEF and VIT to make all the dommage even more powerful on him, it can be deadly.
Let's suppose you have two allies to do it with two different SinX, give them Frilldora, a Speed potion, and they go stealthy kamikaze on the ennemies preparing in pre-emp room.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2016, 09:55 AM by Jessie Rocket »

Offline AnimaRagnarokOnline

Re: Re: Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #8 on: Mar 16, 2016, 10:15 AM »
So obviously you found the real problem here, but are reluctant to fix it?

Remove the ridiculous skill point requirement if that is the main thing impeding balance

...

No, the ridiculous skill point requirement is what is making it a worth-while build. This build solely centers around Venom Splasher, you wouldn't need sonic blow since you'll be doing dual daggers, what it needs is to have enough skill points to have 10 Poison React, 5 R/L Hand Mastery and you're good to go at this point. But players will have to take into consideration the requirements for the skill to be able to level it up as well as Cloaking since you wouldn't want a sin without cloaking right?

What is impeding it's balance is that it only does considerable damage to low vit/low def players, you have no counter whatsoever for high vit / high def players (i am not taking into consideration Thana or Ice Pick since in the server this is implemented, those items does not exist.)

Offline Blinzer

Re: Re: Re: Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #9 on: Mar 16, 2016, 01:51 PM »
No, the ridiculous skill point requirement is what is making it a worth-while build. This build solely centers around Venom Splasher, you wouldn't need sonic blow since you'll be doing dual daggers, what it needs is to have enough skill points to have 10 Poison React, 5 R/L Hand Mastery and you're good to go at this point. But players will have to take into consideration the requirements for the skill to be able to level it up as well as Cloaking since you wouldn't want a sin without cloaking right?

What is impeding it's balance is that it only does considerable damage to low vit/low def players, you have no counter whatsoever for high vit / high def players (i am not taking into consideration Thana or Ice Pick since in the server this is implemented, those items does not exist.)

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

let me know when you want to actually listen to what i have to say
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2016, 02:02 PM by Blinzer »

Offline AnimaRagnarokOnline

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #10 on: Mar 21, 2016, 02:10 PM »
Well I'm rather interested in what you have to say then.

Yes, the skill points are rather steep in exchange for a single use skill. The solution would be to loosen up the skill requirements, however, how about the damage it does? Or are there anything else to add rather than tweak the skill requirements a bit?

Offline Blinzer

Re: Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #11 on: Mar 22, 2016, 09:23 PM »
Well I'm rather interested in what you have to say then.

Yes, the skill points are rather steep in exchange for a single use skill. The solution would be to loosen up the skill requirements, however, how about the damage it does? Or are there anything else to add rather than tweak the skill requirements a bit?

to know when a skill becomes useful, you first need to know when what is useful where

where in a sin's playstyle would it be useful to have another skill to use, and what should it do to differentiate it from the already existing playstyle?

Offline Roda Frog of Sakray

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #12 on: Aug 05, 2016, 11:16 PM »
As far as Venom Splasher goes, I can vouch that it's overall utility and usefulness more than doubles simply by reverting it to it's pre-episode 9 state. (SP scale now goes 33 at level 1, and 60 at level 10...damage is now a mere 400% with PR only giving 2005 *BUT* can now be popped on command, instantly hitting the target with the damage, simply by hitting said target with a skill.) Even with the added caveat of the target needing to be poisoned and the damage taking a hit, it's usefulness skyrockets... If you really want to balance this skill, I'd reccommend reverting it first, then working from there (maybe lowering the SP cost back down and increasing the damage output...then removing the poisoning and HP reqs.)
Triper is really awesome! For real!

Offline nicoinwonderland

Re: [Non-Renewal] Assassin Skill Tweaks
« Reply #13 on: Aug 28, 2016, 08:08 PM »
edit:

didn't read that it was for pre-trans sry, ignore what i wrote

--------------------

those changes don't really make sense

all you're doing is giving the sinx class a bunch of buffs without directly attacking their weaknesses and what they lack

let's put aside the obvious ranged meta atm and how broken bragi is and actually talk about what the sinx class lacks

The biggest issue they face is that they lack a solid identity as a class in WoE. We all know pvm and pvp wise, they're still very strong and have a lot of room to allow the player to grow into the class but in WoE, their place is very minor if present.

The biggest strength that a sinx offers is how independent they are. Assuming storage isn't available, they are the only class in the game that can run around for half an hour without ever needing the aid of another guild mate. This strength is heavily underrated and underused. When I played WoE as a sinx in SE WoE, I tried to abuse this fact as much as possible by simply camping players and keeping them from their guild. This is the role that I think would best fit sinx and any buffs should go towards helping them solidify their identity in WoE as an actual assassin.

A few changes that I've thought about when buffing the sinx class (with the goal of helping them become an actual assassin) are the following:

- Cloaking

Currently, Cloaking only provides a speed buff if the player is standing next to a wall and this speed buff is negated when Increase Agility is removed. I propose an increase in movement speed (10~20%) when the player is alone (maybe if no guild mates are on screen). Let this movement speed buff stack with other buffs such as Increase Agility and speed potion.

- Sprinkle Sand

Change this skill so that it's ground targeted (similar to Heaven's Drive).

The other changes I've thought about are just simply directed at how defense in the game works. Without mvp cards, melee classes simply get hurt too much by high defense. Bone plate and the BG katar are great but they're not enough. Defense needs to be reworked or more defense ignore items should be added.
« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2016, 09:07 PM by nicoinwonderland »