Suggestions for the Forum

[Yukino]

Okay, I hope I won't get badly treated for this, but I would like to voice out my opinion and suggestions here. I feel a suggestion thread is needed instead of just chatting in the General Chit Chat section. Please hear me out--I don't want RMS to degrade any further. Too many changes and bad feelings in such a short time (just days). Something needs to be done so that everyone can be satisfied.

Right off the bat:

1) Another staff member for RMS forums is needed. We need another moderator as Pow and Xarale (he has replied) are busy. There needs to be someone to help Relics keep the threads moderated. Some threads are just too long for the wrong reasons (mostly off-topic or useless flaming here and there). Also, as some forumers stated before, perhaps a new administrator as well. I know (as many others do) that yC has a lot on her hands with just the website development. There should be another person to help her on the forum seeing how Riotblade is kind of inactive on the forums (no idea about the website development). I know there is an issue with trust, but you can restrict permissions for that administrator if you want (like don't give the person complete access--just enough access to make the forum better like adding new mods/change boards). Though mostly I would like to have another moderator available for RMS forum.

2) A new banner for the RMS forum. I think there should be something graphically done to the forum. It is a bit plain, but I know changing the whole template would throw things off. Why not just change the buttons/icons to something more Ragnarok looking? Same with the forum banner as well. It would spice things up and keep our interest.

3) Unban some people. I cannot stress this enough. Some players do deserve to be banned while others should get warnings/moderation comments. Do not ban them right off just because they appear in many drama threads--they are quite on the dot with such things. Also, if the staff feels that it is necessary, give warnings. It is against the RULES to ban people right off. If the staff (especially Administrators) does not follow their own rules, it would set off players. "Why would players follow rules if the staff themselves cannot?" Or else, just edit the rules again (with people unbanned since they did not know about the new rules if they are to be made). People voicing out their ideas doesn't mean that they should be banned. Just talk to them/PM them first. Furthermore, bans should only be temporarily. Are the recently banned forumers still banned? Here is the link to GLOBAL forum rules: http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/index.php?action=globalAnnouncements;id=6 I believe something has to be fixed. Unban those who are not in the wrong please.

I probably have more suggestions later on, but I would like to say these things first. Please do not think that I am offending anyone--I am quite serious and want sophisticated posts and replies here. yC, I know you have been through numerous situations--as an Administrator, I feel that as well. However, players cannot be ignored forever. Same thing with forumers. In order to have a community, the staff has to be willing to be dedicated to the people as well. If they are being unreasonable, fine. Just say more to them. Don't leave them hanging. Don't leave us hanging. RMS forums seems way dead compared to before, and I believe people (including the staff) know the answer. Something must be done. Thank you for your time.

[Aurora™]

I honestly agree wholeheartedly, with everything said here. +1

And about the graphics, I know the DB area of the forums have been changed. Not sure if anyone plans on changing the forums.

[Tom~]

It was about time that someone made a thread about this, since the topic in the general chit chat section is being plainly ignored.

+1 to everything said here. yC, you are doing an excelent job on the website, but the forums need a little bit of love too.

[Khaine]

I agree with Tom,

+1 to everything said here.

[Kiyoshiro]

I totally support this suggestion. We need change for the better =/

+1 to everything said here.

[Immortal]

I think it might help bring in more new people if the link to the forums was more prominent on the RMS database page.  I know several newer players that were using RMS and not aware that the forums existed.

I also wonder if a thread not just for "Support" but for true new players to ask questions would help.  I have heard that the community being so knowledgalbe is intimidating to many new players.  The are concerned about asking "stupid" questions and being troll/flamed for their lack of knowledge.   

What ever changes maybe explored, it appears now would be a good time.  The community seems more than ready to move on and be constructive. 

[LemonCrosswalk]

I think it might help bring in more new people if the link to the forums was more prominent on the RMS database page.  I know several newer players that were using RMS and not aware that the forums existed.

I also wonder if a thread not just for "Support" but for true new players to ask questions would help.  I have heard that the community being so knowledgalbe is intimidating to many new players.  The are concerned about asking "stupid" questions and being troll/flamed for their lack of knowledge.   

What ever changes maybe explored, it appears now would be a good time.  The community seems more than ready to move on and be constructive. 

The support forum is 90% of the time is responded with "Go ask eathena" or it's a silly question asked a million times that could be found using the search function (Which for some reason seems to be hard to find/use for new users).

As for knowledgeable people, the number has dwindled greatly with the bannings.

Another big problem seems to be communication (see the argument for necroposting). It seems like people aren't on the same page on the staff. There have been many disagreements between moderators and yC usually.

Sure, people are still posting, but the quality of the posts have dwindled considerably. No one is left with the patience enough to help people and still deal with how the forum is being handled. Everyone is leaving or being banned. If something doesn't happen soon, then RMS is going to be facing quite a problem.

[yC]

I'll state this so that I don't have to make a further reply to point this out.  To those who believe in "admin is not allowed to disagree with the people", this is going to be a disappointing answer and I expect this will become another call for the exact opposite which is "people are not allowed to disagree with the admin".  The argument work both ways, suggestions are just suggestions.  Staff is here to decide them.

1)  How about a new forum for those that are looking for a dramatic change in staff.  Basically more staff is not going to solve every problem in the world regardless of the trust issue.  If people behave the way it should be, in a perfect world, there shouldn't be any staff interference at all.  The fact that you see there is a need for newer and more active staff team means you also see a problem with the forum on the posting issues be it spam, flame, insult etc.  Now since you mentioned that, I want you to know there is a reason why I blame people in this forum for causing trouble.  As oppose to those that think they should continue to cause trouble and the staff should be to blame while the staff can't blame anyone.

This is a difficult challenge.  I myself don't want to be here dealing with people that goes out of line more than often.  Nor does anyone in the world wants to use their time this way.  Even being a volunteer in a public organization gets a 'thank you' and something worthy to be put on their resume if not a reference letter.  With relation to your suggestion #3, banning trouble maker that is 'beyond repair' is a much more efficient tool than putting the extra stress on the already busy staff team.

In short, with much respect to my current staff I'll say this.  Do you ever see a job in your local community that never get filled or the turn over rate is high?  Fine out why ...

Looking at the Applications topics.  I can't really pick people that were here for only a few months or those that goes inactive after posting their application.  Some became gm or admin of servers at a later time that affect their eligibility status.

Me stepping down is rather impossible.  If someone don't like the management it's better to move on simple as that.  Once again I don't have the power to force people to stick to this forum, in the same way you don't have the power to control everything around here.  If you don't like Microsoft you can use Linux.  Sure, if you don't like this forum try the eAthena forum.  There will be less conflict built us so it's good for both sides.  I could also suggest a faster and better solution to the person who suggested this, it is to just create another forum, hire his own staff that he see fits and then be his own admin. 

2)  If the forum continue to be a burden to the staff team there could be no forum in the near future, so the change is out of the question.  If the core is rotten it doesn't matter the look is good.  This is really not the time I'll consider a graphic update in the forum.  This current "theme" was all done/selected by Riotblade.  If you have been following my news you should know I am "graphically challenged" ...

3)  Answered this a bit in suggestion #1.  The warning system is about to change.  We don't have the patience to give a billion chances to repeated offenders anymore.  I used to think they will change after some warnings, that was too naive of me thinking of a perfect world when it's the 4chan world that is in reality.  However, the rule for no spamming, no flaming, no insult and having multiple accounts has been there for years.  Those that ignored them more than often were welly deserved to be banned.  Regardless if they have been helpful at times, it doesn't change the fact that they are in violation.

The power to issue a straight ban has always been with the staff, although it was rarely used because we promote a friendly community.  On the registration agreement (http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/index.php?action=register logout?), "false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy ..." could lead to a ban "in the event of a major violation of this agreement".  For the amount of hateful if not abusive/harassing/invading privacy acts some of the banned users employed over the cross of their stay, they are definitely not minor violators.  Because warning them, muting them, temp banning them does nothing and they just come back and does it again.  The only person that might have was said to be never warned but was banned because the global rule on having multiple accounts applies.

Regardless of the suggestion.  I'll state this again.  I rather have a quiet forum than to have to work with a forum that need 24/7 staff attention.  The forum is suppose to be a supplement to the site, an extension of the site that will help people on finding out server and finding more information about the game.  It is NOT built to be a 4chan residence forum where troll (as defined by wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29) is acceptable.  If it no longer can serve its purpose or nobody is motivated to work on keeping this forum in line, the forum will have to be closed. 

I'll also use this opportunity to say that the Hall of Shame and Soap Opera sections are now the child board of Rant and Rave.  Only staff can move topic into those two sections whenever they find a topic fits.  The board description has been updated to reflect the changes.  The Hall of Shame, Soap Opera and the whole Off-Topic sections are now not invisible from guest.  I don't want guests to sign up because they want to participate in drama or off-topic sections that is not the main focus of our forum.  Also by doing that it could save some bandwidth and page load from serving web spiders on the least important topics.

[Green]

......
I'm just going to leave that for the others to tear apart.


+1 Yukino
+1 Lemon

[Yukino]

Thank you for your reply.

As someone has said before (I believe it was Lemon or... yeah, can't find that post now), if you think the main point of this forum is "I rather have a quiet forum than to have to work with a forum that need 24/7 staff attention.  The forum is suppose to be a supplement to the site, an extension of the site that will help people on finding out server and finding more information about the game" (too lazy to paraphrase), then remove all those rant sections. No need for Soap Opera threads. Why promote more trollers then? Seeing how people are banned right off for voicing what they have said, why give people more chances to do so? Just take it all away. I mean, you would sacrifice forum views for peace, right? (Seeing how majority of the contributors are banned or will be banned. Community members are sacrificed for peace as well from what I can see.) Right now, you have basically just you and Relics working. Perhaps you can also ask him if he thinks another staff member is necessary. If you cannot find anyone satisfying at the moment, don't throw the idea completely off. We want you to at least consider it. This is a pretty huge forum which I believe needs more than 2 people watching over it all. I mean, look at all the threads that aren't locked and moderated (the "trollers" aren't banned there). The staff is overly busy because of the population of the staff team lol.

As for the job analogy, people want jobs. There aren't enough out there. Just making that clear. Positions are always filled (or at least within a short moment).

I didn't say that you should stop down. It's more like you need someone else to help with the burdens and decision-making. There needs to be more staff members in the end if the forum continues to grow. As for moving unto eAthena, that's more for scripts and such. I always thought RMS forum focuses more on servers and situations. eAthena does not focus on the servers--they provide downloads and script/server work help. Once again, just refer to my first big paragraph about "removing certain sections" if you want peace and not be contradictory at all ><.

I forget the news easily... it's been a long time since I actually looked at the section and even at the right thread that you're trying to mention. I think there would be at least someone who can help out graphically. There are many designers in the Paid section if you want. Also, this isn't much of a theme (the current). Lol, it's the default theme... lots of thinking and choosing have been put into this decision. Yep... hm.

Well, if the warning system will change, please do inform us all. The banned people didn't know about the "upcoming" changes. They were dealt with before the changes occurred. That I believe is unfair. It's like jailing/banning people in-game saying "I am about to make a new rule, and you just broke it. Hence, you get punished first". By banning people right off without an explanation (especially to those who NEVER got warned before and wanted to see some changes to the forum <--Emphasis), that's not promoting a friendly community at all. The staff members are PART of the community as well. The forumers were banned for that thread specifically about what they think should be done to the forum. I don't think that's fair, kind, and logical at all.

People do want change. Better ones. People are motivated to keep this forum in line; hence, we are suggesting all of these. It's because we're not trusted enough that we are subjected to punishments or are disregarded.

As for the board changes, that could have been done earlier. It's just too much of a coincidence to have them changed now (in our eyes anyways). There could have been a notification about the new changes as well... and any new ones you have in mind. It's just a really bad timing for all of this to happen. I won't criticize more in this area.

Wait, GorthexTiger had multiple accounts? I doubt that... but even if he did, wouldn't the ban be placed before hand? Why was he banned right after commenting in that thread? Once again, really "bad timing".

Anyways, I hope I don't sound too offensive, but it does seem like the staff is shying away... giving up and just banning the community. If you want peace, get rid of all those sections where flaming will be found. I was hoping that the forum would change for the better, but at the moment, it's hard to see that. I do hope something will be done. Once again, thank you for your time and reply.

[Aurora™]

Since I don't really feel like posting a tl;dr post, because I'm tired, and just got home, I'm just going to comment on the area about people not wanting to deal with the forums, adequate possibilities for staff, blah blah..

Not wanting to toot my own horn, or anyone elses, but I'm pretty sure that I, and a few other people would be more than willing to deal with the forums on a regular basis. They're forums, drama will happen, and getting rid of two people (one of which has never been warned his entire stay at RMS) that had a big part in the voice of RMS isn't going to, as you put it, "I rather have a quiet forum than to have to work with a forum that need 24/7 staff attention." In fact, being a long-term veteran of RMS, and being here when Descent himself first joined, they've seemed to help quiet down most of the drama topics. Of course, when people respond with an, at least, somewhat intelligent answer to a drama-prone topic, drama will ensue afterwards, but it always managed to dwindle down.

Now, it just seems, such as topics previously pointed out in the Chit-Chat topic, the drama dwindles down, but instead of stopping, it ends up in small, random, one sentence posts.

So, to wrap up what I'm saying, myself, and quite a few others would be more than willing to take on responsibility, especially since I, and certain others, are veterans of the boards, haven't been around for just a few months and didn't just randomly disappear. I know Descent did a great job when he was on the staff, so, that, in itself, is proof.

There's a lot more I want to say, but I won't, just because I'm tired. So. There you go.

twocentsworth.

[Yukino]

I agree with what Aurora said.

The community isn't giving up on the forum and wants it to grow and be better. The staff shouldn't give up on the community as well. Don't make more people disappear to avoid all the problems. It's just a temporary excuse/time of peace, and you know it. Nothing is really solved in the end just by running away and banning people right off.

[yC]

I'll make this one short since you don't seems to read the whole post I made or you ignored some key point I made.

1) I already said HoS & Soap Opera is now only available for staff to move topics into there, so users can't create topic in there.  I considered removing them completely but found it might be too late and don't know where to put the topics anyway.  Right now no one can create topics in there, existing topics can still be discussed.  Guests can't view the two sections.  I'll see if that help at all.

2) I am not joking.  Seriously, would you like to look at the application topic and recommend some people that are still active from the date of posting the application, is being a good citizen and has signed up for at least 3 months?  I think the choose is very limited.  Like one ...?

3) I said the warning system is going to change doesn't mean the people banned were banned under a new unrevealed system.  That is completely misunderstood on your part.  The agreement I shown you has always been there.  It's basically the default agreement that the forum software came with (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=register).  Which gives the generate accepted behavior of a web community.  Those not acting accordingly can expect the consequence stated, no surprise at all.

[Aurora™]

I can count, just by skimming, at least three, including myself (tooting my own horn.)

Also, yC, I didn't comment on either 1 or 2 that you just mentioned, I only commented on dealing with the forums. So, no offense, but I don't think you read my whole post. Unless you're not just talking to just me, then by bad. But still, there's more than just one that I see, that qualifies.

[TeamEdward]

Hi yC, it's Gorthex (<3 you!!!).
I wanted to address a couple things, and I recommend you read this before banning me. PS I'm not actually GorthexTiger posting this, I'm an innocent bystander. Should you ban me, you'd simply be banning another random user like you've been recently doing. Anyway, happy reading!

I'll state this so that I don't have to make a further reply to point this out...

If this is the case, you should lock the topic.
You can't just make 1 post regarding the suggestion, and then leave it as is; if your mind is already set, and you have no intention on doing it, then there's no point in continuing the topic and you should just lock it.

Most of the suggestion topics turn to drama after the realization that things won't change anyways, so I hope you see the logic and reasoning behind it.

The fact that you see there is a need for newer and more active staff team means you also see a problem with the forum on the posting issues be it spam, flame, insult etc.  

This is not necessarilly the case.

You can't say that because there is a need for something, that the other party is responsible for the problem.

There's a need for Doctors, so are we going to blame sick people for getting sick?
There's a need for Scientists, so are we going to blame technology?
There's a need for Farmers, so are we going to blame food?

And the same is truthful vice-versa.

Nor is it just issues with posting either.

Both Xarale and Pow have been absent lately, which, has left you, to moderate the forums alone.

Just as easily as you can, "blame people in this forum for causing trouble", we can easily blame you for "not moderating fairly, being a good moderator," etc.
Especially with the recent bannings you've done (and this just isn't my opinion either) and the people who have commented on it. I won't even address your
lack of concern or care of other people's opinions (which you clearly demonstrated with your 1 post 'I will not respond to anymore posts' statement).

The problem is, it's a looks bad. Sort of like Apple. Steve Jobs blaming the Apple iPhone 4's network on everyone because they are 'holding it wrong', makes him look,
quite frankly, like a douche bag. He's the CEO of Apple, and he's saying the problem really isn't with the product, it's with the users.

However, when several people (users) all start to say the same thing, it's different. 1 Person can be wrong about everything, however, when a group of people come together, and they are all saying the same thing,
and have concrete, logical, supporting evidence that backs-up their statement, it's a little bit more incriminating.

And that's what is exactly happening here.

You can point fingers all you want yC, but together we have more fingers than you. And we sound a lot more convincing to.

Regardless if they have been helpful at times, it doesn't change the fact that they are in violation.
The power to issue a straight ban has always been with the staff, although it was rarely used because we promote a friendly community.
On the registration agreement (http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/index.php?action=register logout?), "false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy ..." could lead to a ban "in the event of a major violation of this agreement".  For the amount of hateful if not abusive/harassing/invading privacy acts some of the banned users employed over the cross of their stay, they are definitely not minor violators.  Because warning them, muting them, temp banning them does nothing and they just come back and does it again.  

The only person that might have was said to be never warned but was banned because the global rule on having multiple accounts applies.

Then let's be a bit more specific yC.

You broke your own Global Rules:

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/index.php?action=globalAnnouncements;id=6

->Harassment, insult and personal attack is not allowed.

Your post:

I am glad you didn't become admin of eAthena otherwise disaster might happen.

Depending on what you said, it could also be considered a "trolling" post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 (In case you forgot the link earlier).

You also then reconfirmed it, but I don't need to link to that.

So, you should warn yourself for that.

Yes, I did have 1 other account.
Yes, I did post with that secondary account.

HOWEVER, there are factors that you didn't specify, and the rules don't cover them.

1.) The secondary account was created for 'anonymity' while I posted in Flippy's hacked RO server topic. I sent you a private message and told you back in April 12th, what the account was for.

If it was something worth warranting a ban, I should've been banned then, instead of now.

This indicates you were saving up "dirt" on me and waiting to use it.

2.) What I posted and did on that secondary account never violated any of your global rules:

->Registering multiple accounts to skip or by-pass moderation
->Registering multiple accounts to support your own claims, make false accusations, make yourself 'look good' or to incite a flame war by deliberately creating an argument.

The account, was simply to be used during that post so that I could remain annoynmous, which you had no problem with back then, but apparently do now.

And let's be blunt: Had I really wanted to remain annoymous, I could've kept you out of the loop, used a proxy, and you would've never been any more informed of my actions.

But I didn't because I gave you that respect.

The fact that you are bringing that to light now, is because you STILL[/u] can't deal with the "facts" of my post and are
trying to justify my ban to the community.

Do you really think that they are that stupid?

They understand what you are doing yC, more than you realize.

Since you'd rather have a quiet forum than a decent one, I suggest you close it, since you have no intention of being fair or listening to anyone's suggestions at all.

In the meantime, I will be taking your suggestion and starting my own site. Once the site is complete I hope you can forward a link to it, I'm sure the trollololololers will love it there.

Thanks for all fun yC.

P.S.

Regarding your Global Forum Rule....

Do not resurrect threads where the last post is any more than 2 months before hand.

I would hope that since you can't follow them here, you might follow the common courtesy to at least follow them on other boards.

http://www.eathena.ws/board/index.php?showtopic=135688&st=120&p=1359869&#entry1359869

Oopsie daysies, guess not.

Later yC.

PS: I'd like to apply to become a forum moderator. I was highly active before the ban, and I'm more than capable of handling a forum.