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Offline Frigidarium

Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« on: May 07, 2011, 01:57 pm »
I was discussing this with a GM one of the servers I frequent and apparently giving in-game incentives for reviews is frowned upon and, at worst, a list-removable offense.  While I realize that RMS is a separate entity all its own and does not necessarily have to conform to any sort of standard, we all have to realize that the precedent has been set by the voting reward points.  Even though it is in several ways inherently flawed, it is an overall effective way to promote a server and every party involved can benefit in certain ways.

If you're not familiar with the voting reward system, various servers try to get their names up on top of the other websites that list them based on voter popularity.  The rewards, in turn, are often tallied in the form of points (or whatever currency you are more comfortable with), usually a static amount per vote, that can be exchanged for various items and features within the server.  The process by which one can get these points is ideally slow enough that it doesn't conflict too much with the zeny economy, yet is beneficial enough so that even newbies can become established relatively quickly.  I have to stress the latter point because so often servers are not newbie friendly and it's mainly for that reason that their populations stagnate to the point of oblivion.  

I don't mean to give my favorite server a shameless plug, but TalonRO is an example of a server that implements the voting points system well, especially for the fact that the GMs go out of their way to modify the exchange value of the point system fairly regularly in order to maintain both its own worth as currency and the continued necessity of zeny.  In return, we, the players, are rewarded for our continued loyalty and longevity to the server [On that note, I noticed on the side, it says "longetivity" which bugs me only because I'm rather OCD about spelling.  I'll probably go over this entire response at least 5 times to make sure it's all right in that regard, but I digress].  For all the server owners that do implement that system and do it well, I applaud you and your supportive players.  

Many people will try to invalidate this concept for RMS server reviews in that the potential for abuse is high.  I agree with the notion in that the influx of positive reviews will surge tremendously, but I can think of a few of safeguards preventing the ordeal from being so extreme that it becomes unmanageable.  First, limit the ability for us to submit a review for the amount of days that seems reasonable based on the increase in the amount of reviews.  Second, provide the in-game incentive for all legitimate reviews.  Thus, people are encouraged to be honest and they still benefit from their efforts.  Third, have the reviews be screened to the extent that the ones lacking any beneficial substance whatsoever are not worth rewarding (both RMS and server owners can work in concert to make this effective, but I admit the amount of effort might seem exorbitant... however it's a great way for one server to stand out from the rest- also with the increased amount of reviews, there might be the few that provide legitimately vital concerns that server owners can more readily address).  Fourth, an IP tracking system that prevents people from utilizing multiple accounts to game the system can be implemented, if it isn't already.

The fourth point is something that most people enjoy contesting, and I agree that it's a great cause for concern, especially given the substantially greater temptation for abuse that will come about as a result allowing RMS review-based in-game incentives.  However, I don't think that it will be as great of a problem as some might assume and I will explain why.

Given how the top servers only have only a hundred or so reviews, that number will hypothetically rise in a significant way if top servers decide to latch onto this system.  Since it will eventually become a requirement for servers to be noticed, others that want attention will do it as well.  Consequently, the number of increased reviews will better reflect the population of each server and give a better and more immediate impression about the community, in a quantitative sense, within each server.  The multi-account reviewers that get away with it will still be able to do so, but their efforts will be less effective.  I understand that this does not solve the problem, but I admit that I am not knowledgeable about programming and website building enough to really suggest much to counter it.

What I do understand is that the ability for people to abuse the review system has always been there, and I sincerely believe that doing so is much more effective at deterring people from ever playing on the server currently than will ever be, if the RMS review-based in-game incentives system is not only allowed, but becomes mainstream, since there is, for now, not a great deal of player response to counter the sometimes unjustifiably harsh reviews.

On that note, one of the issues I noticed with RMS is that the reviews do not necessarily reflect the population count.  I won't provide any examples even though I am guilty of doing so before, but some servers with twice the reviews of another can somehow have the same population count.  I didn't go as far to consider the variables of merch-characters and how new the server has been listed, but those discrepancies can be much more quickly and passively addressed by utilizing RMS review-based in-game incentives.  Also, both the server and RMS can benefit from the traffic in however many ways they choose, unless they are adamant about paying out of their own pockets to eliminate the need for advertisement of any kind.

In conclusion, I want to state my appreciation by saying that RMS is still the best resource for people who are looking to play on private servers. Even though I am criticizing its traditions, I only want to see this website and its community become better.  I also am open to the possibility that I am wrong or did not account for any foreseeable consequences that may render this idea useless.  If I have, then I ask that you respond with the same civility that I have expressed towards you, the readers, RMS frequenters and potential friends.  Thank you for your time and have a great day.

P.S.
Sorry of this idea has already been argued through and addressed.  I admit that I did not do a generous amount of thread-searching to see if someone has brought it up already, but for what I did, I could not find anything similar.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 04:39 pm by Frigidarium »

RateMyServer Ragnarok Community

Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« on: May 07, 2011, 01:57 pm »

Offline Tom~

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 06:06 pm »
I've never been a fan of V4P. I remember when people voted because they liked the server, and not because they were going to be rewarded for it...

Humans are greedy. They will find ways around the system, and cheat. It already happens with the current system: people make multiple accounts from different IPs (yes, IP tracking system has been already implemented).
Server owners are humans, too. How can the RMS staff be sure that they're dealing with a honest person? You say that reviews should be screenied, and if they do not meet certain requirements, players won't receive a prize... but do you really think all server owners are going to willingly report a POSITIVE review that does not meet RMS' standards? No. Do you think players will write negative reviews KNOWING that they could write a positive review and be rewarded for it?

This brings up another question: What happens if server owners set a min score to receive a prize? The server won't be reviewed negatively at all.

We're not a voting site. If players write a review, it's because they want to help their server grow by showing others how "awesome" it is, or warn potential players about the corrupt staff or the horrible community... not because they're going to be rewarded.

Too many flaws, and no real benefit to RMS... sorry :/
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 06:09 pm by Tom~ »

Offline Frigidarium

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2011, 11:27 pm »
I've never been a fan of V4P. I remember when people voted because they liked the server, and not because they were going to be rewarded for it...

Humans are greedy. They will find ways around the system, and cheat. It already happens with the current system: people make multiple accounts from different IPs (yes, IP tracking system has been already implemented).
Server owners are humans, too. How can the RMS staff be sure that they're dealing with a honest person? You say that reviews should be screenied, and if they do not meet certain requirements, players won't receive a prize... but do you really think all server owners are going to willingly report a POSITIVE review that does not meet RMS' standards? No. Do you think players will write negative reviews KNOWING that they could write a positive review and be rewarded for it?

This brings up another question: What happens if server owners set a min score to receive a prize? The server won't be reviewed negatively at all.

We're not a voting site. If players write a review, it's because they want to help their server grow by showing others how "awesome" it is, or warn potential players about the corrupt staff or the horrible community... not because they're going to be rewarded.

Too many flaws, and no real benefit to RMS... sorry :/

Like you said, people will always find a way to game the system.  Given that, who's to say that people aren't already doing what you brought up in question form?  The most likely scenario, if what I suggest is hypothetically allowed, is that people will have far less of a need to be underhanded about it and server owners can thus be more free to encourage the honesty of a review.  Of course server owners would prefer positive reviews over negative ones, but I think you are a bit cynical to assume that people will do anything to prevent the negative reviews that can actually benefit them.  

To try and reduce the incidence of blatantly useless reviews, I suggested there ideally would first be a way to offer the incentives to encourage people to review, and then have that screening process where the rewards may then be taken away for those that are determined, through the manpower of financially disinterested people, to be without substance.  The debate is really whether or not it's worth the effort and, honestly, I'm beginning to side with those who think it's not.  There's also the possibility of corruption, but that's inherent in anything run by humans.

RMS could take advantage of the increase in traffic with their use of adverts and thus everyone benefits from this.

I understand your dislike of the points system, even though I don't agree with your opinion.  Change is inevitable, whether we want it or not.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 11:36 pm by Frigidarium »

Offline Kyomi

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 11:36 pm »
Tom pretty much summed up how I feel about this matter. RMS is not a voting site, and I would rather not see it go that route. Voting sites are incredibly flawed and corrupted (you can pay most of them money for a spot high up on the list, without needing to have a lot of votes), and that's really not what RMS needs to be following. I'd much rather have the system RMS has now, where people review to help the server, or share their experience; Not because they get something out of it.

Offline Frigidarium

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2011, 11:50 pm »
Tom pretty much summed up how I feel about this matter. RMS is not a voting site, and I would rather not see it go that route. Voting sites are incredibly flawed and corrupted (you can pay most of them money for a spot high up on the list, without needing to have a lot of votes), and that's really not what RMS needs to be following. I'd much rather have the system RMS has now, where people review to help the server, or share their experience; Not because they get something out of it.

The thing is, you can't be sure that people aren't getting anything out of it now.  Also I'm not sure how it is you came to the conclusion that most of the voting sites can be bought to circumvent the vote system, but if that were possible, then that would defeat the purpose of voting entirely.  

Also, as flawed as the vote for points system may be, both you and Tom refuse to acknowledge the flaws in the current system (that I have mentioned in that admittedly giant wall of text).  The thing is, all of the problems addressed with the vote for points system may already be happening on a smaller scale now.  If the right safeguards are put in place, then the best case scenario is that what's already going on will only increase proportionally to the genuine benefit that can be received.  I'm not saying that mistakes won't be made and that there isn't a lot of experimentation that needs to be done.  Whether or not this idea is ever seriously considered, I still see a lot of potential in it if we can get enough people on board.

You guys need to look at this argument from both sides.  Right now, all I see is someone clinging to lofty sentiments and a profound reluctance to change something that, regardless of my opinions/suggestions, may be quickly veering into obsolescence.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 11:53 pm by Frigidarium »

Offline Tom~

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 01:19 am »
Quote
The thing is, you can't be sure that people aren't getting anything out of it now.
We know some people do. That's why we've got a Server Reports section; so people can report servers that are not following our ToS.

Quote
What I do understand is that the ability for people to abuse the review system has always been there, and I sincerely believe that doing so is much more effective at deterring people from ever playing on the server currently than will ever be, if the RMS review-based in-game incentives system is not only allowed, but becomes mainstream, since there is, for now, not a great deal of player response to counter the sometimes unjustifiably harsh reviews.
It has always been there, that's true, but again, the Server Reports section is there to report servers handing out rewards, and there's a report function to report specific reviews too.

People already make multiple accounts to review a server. What makes you think that this will be less of a problem if rewards are implemented? You say that it will be less noticeable, but if right now a small percentage of people cheat without any benefit other than the possible increase of population on their server, I can only imagine the chaos this site will become when everyone tries to get multiple rewards... *shakes head*

And, by the way, Server Listings include server population based on what players see.

You're right, though. It would benefit RMS in some ways... but I'm not sure of wanting it to become another Gamesites200. I'm not afraid of changes. I'm afraid of changes that could do more harm than good.

You do not get rewarded for reviewing products. You simply write your opinion about a certain product, to let everyone know if it's worth buying/trying or not. This situation is not different. Here, the product is a RO server. The reviewers, players.

Offline yC

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 02:31 am »
Honestly, I cannot agree on many of the points you made on the first post.

The review system is very different from a voting site.  With vote you do every 12 hours or so, with review you only have to do it once (ideally).  So you think people will be happy to get a reward once when they can get more by creating multiple accounts?  This is exactly what I am seeing right now.  One way that lead us to server that are giving incentive for review is when we see evident of users creating multiple accounts to review a server.  I don't even have to imagine or speculate it, it's just the fact here.

So ... now we take away the penalty.  That would mean we will have 100x time the trouble to deal with.  But not exactly because we are not going to bother banning server that give incentive for review.  Okay the net result:  Accounts created to make review of no value for reward day in and day out = We can now declare we are a voting site except that you vote by filling in two forms plus an email activation = nobody give a s*** about the review content or score anymore.

I hope you get the idea there.  Now I'll talk about our value here so that you will not try to change us into a voting site anymore.

Having incentive will not only create an outbreak of reviews but also lower the quality of reviews.  There are already spam-like reviews that need to be deleted everyday, incentive will just make the matter worse.

The spirit I have with the review system is that a review should be written from the heart of a player, not for item nor reward.  I attempt to keep it this way for as long as I can and is defending it everyday.  Yes there are cheaters, but to make cheating legal sounds like a doomsday idea to me.  

I don't create this system so that players can get items or points by doing something here.  I created this system so players can find a suitable server for themselves.  Well, the two idea is exactly opposite to each other.  The closest example I want to bring up is donating to a server.  There are servers where you get nothing but you are helping the server to pay bill if you donate.  There are the rest of other servers where you get item or something that you can exchange for item when you donate to the server.  As we all witnessed in today's RO world, the more advantage donator have over non-donator, the more money those server can make from donation (given there is a player base that would stay).  So if you have to choose to play a server, you want fair ground or you want to be beat up by donators?  In the same way, how can you tell people to trust the reviews and have faith in our system if the reviews are result of giving out rewards to players.  That is why we have to ban servers that are doing it.

I don't compare one review as one vote.  A vote has no content, at least review can be good or bad.  You can't compare orange with apple.

Though I can argue, in the same way top servers on voting sites does not always have the most population.  There are voting bots that utilize proxies so you might see a server have no vote for point system (or have one that nobody uses) but gets plenty of votes daily on a regular basis.


As for voting system.  So far I see that no vote for point system out there is perfect.  They are flawed to the core if you count how many points the server give out compare to the amount of vote the server get.  Most of them are just click on a tracking link that will open a new tab to a voting site.  Then you get point credited to your account.  You don't have to click vote to get point.  So why should anyone bother to click vote.  When they can click close tab and still get the points.  Smarter script would open the page in a frame and let you wait 10 sec before the point is credited hoping you will click and vote for them.  Because vote count shown on voting site is not real time and there is time gap to load/check/track vote incremental, vote for point system can only do so much to make sure someone actually voted.

Smart RO players figured this out a long time ago.  I really don't see how vote for point can change the landscape for voting site ranking for a server as much as the traditional proxy vote bot does.  

If you think about it, in the end it still need the player to like your server and have a good heart to hope your server to grow then they would click on the vote button rather than the close tab button.

Consider RMS has user name and what not to identify you as a reviewer and as you said if you write spam you don't get the reward.  That could easily give the "RMS vote for point system" a 100% match rate in terms of review (vote count) vs reward (point).  You don't need a good heart or hope the server to grow to write a review, the reward is the only thing that matter in the world.  Forget everything I will write a good review and there I will get a reward.  Now that's worse than any general vote for point system.  I might have to make the score board starts at 5 to save some people from giving a score too low that is not eligible for reward.

To add to this already impossible suggestion.  We are not going to decide if you should get reward because your review is good or you are not getting anything because your review is bad.  What goes on inside a server stay independent.  RMS should have no interest in a server's internal administration.

Well thanks for the suggestion which brought up this discussion.  Turns out there could potentially be a worse system than vote for point lol.  I mean this is basically a quantity vs quality issue.  We just picked different sides.


« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 02:51 am by yC »

Offline Yusifer

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 10:35 pm »
Voting and reviewing is not the same.

A review is an opinion. It shouldn't be influenced by tokens; doing so would flaw the entire system, and mislead people searching for a good server that people actually like - and not "like" just for the tidbits they can receive by making a perhaps falsified and exaggerated review.

Just because you're "high" on the review sites doesn't make your server good at all, especially since everyone knows that they're getting items for voting. Meanwhile, a review is actually a thought-out and thorough (usually) opinion, and being high with a good grade on RMS actually means something. You don't get high on the list for nothing, especially since the reviewers don't gain anything by voicing their opinion.

RMS Top 5 are esteemed servers that deserved to be reviewed because their players actually like the server, and not the crap they can "earn" by doing it. Defeats the purpose of making a "genuine" review.
Pony Invasion!

Offline Mr. Parker

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 02:29 am »
Just a bad set of ideas, IMO. There should never be incentives for voting or reviewing, or they won't mean anything.

Offline Seii

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 11:33 pm »
I also agree that voting and reviewing is not the same. But i do or have known some server that give prizes for giving rewards. Of course they're going to give it a good rating, they're getting something from it.

Offline Ixmalka

Re: Server Review-based in-game Incentives
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2011, 09:06 pm »
I pretty much agree with most of the anti-reward points made here. I also personally hate the vote for points system. I make it a point to not vote for servers that implement vote for point systems (even if I voted for them pre-V4P), and I never use the voting sites to find servers, cause the rankings only say first who can pay the most, and second who can get their players to click spam the most, and those two things generally repel me from a server.

I mean, I've had some nasty reviews written about me, which didn't reflect the general in-game opinion very much, but which on RMS made me seem quite incompetent, and it'd be nice to see reviews that showed opposite opinions that people had in-game, but I'd far rather have a bunch of nasty, un-corrupted reviews, than nice ones that are only nice cause they're getting stuff for it. Encouraging the players who like the place to review, and hoping they care enough to do it seems to be one of the best models to go on, in that situation.