Regarding RO Work, Graphics, Maps, Sprites, etc...

kinzoku · Jul 08, 2009, 05:44 PM

Since there's been quite a bit of commotion around with who owns what custom sprites, maps, etc... It seems there needs to be a way to handle this.
Impossible? Probably.

As of now there actually has not been really any cases of stolen sprites or maps, etc... There have probably been a few but very little as far as right now. As for ideas those are simply impossible to protect sadly.

Some of you may know that Ragnarok is starting to get more and more customized as Browedit went public and spriting and stuff has developed a bit more perhaps there should be a way to start protecting these before it does get out of hand.

My suggestion would be for either RMS or someone to create some kind of gallery of these sprites/maps. People could send in their sprites/maps etc.. to RMS before it is released either based on solo artists or as a server whole. They would send in a screen shot of it and perhaps some kind of proof that they made it, sometimes even a website with the author and everything. Then it just becomes a gallery based on that with people's art that is to remain theirs. So if another server steals it the original creators could perhaps show their work in this gallery claiming it is theirs and the other server could either be removed, suspended or ask for the custom thing to be removed from their server.

It seems a bit of a challenge but it would really be worth it for all the hard work that is put in to most of these arts.

Obviously there are some drawbacks like people who try to put two of the same thing in under a different name, someone who tries to steal and submit something first, or people trying to claim the famous "Blue Valkyrie" as their own. There would have to be some kind of system to this.

I just came up with the idea perhaps others should contribute to make this thing perfect.

Most of you probably know that it would be possible to get a creative commons license but that doesn't help at all because it allows others to distribute the work as long as credits are provided. Which a lot of us do not want.

Just something to be discussed I hope it could be implemented.

Thanks for reading,
Kinz

A92FL0163 · Jul 08, 2009, 06:04 PM

I like the idea of it, I just hope, if this is ever implemented, does not make RMS look like a second RUNE.

kinzoku · Jul 08, 2009, 06:10 PM

it might look like it but the files are not for download just proof of the author and/or server owning the work.

Hutchy · Jul 08, 2009, 11:12 PM

I think that will just increase the number of copyright arguments that pop up. D:

While it would be nice to have a directory showcasing custom sprites so people don't have to sift through the horror that is RUNE, how would we really tell who made what?

LemonCrosswalk · Jul 08, 2009, 11:17 PM

I don't think there is an issue with people saying I CREATED THAT!!!!!!!! It's more, I took it from ____ and I am going to use it so f*** you and there is nothing you can do to stop me.

kinzoku · Jul 08, 2009, 11:21 PM

That's the truth to it. A lot of people have their work stolen that wasn't released to the public. kind of like how there's no point in using creative commons because it's just telling everyone they can use your work. Which obviously is not what any of them want because they never released it to the public.

Hutchy · Jul 09, 2009, 03:07 PM

I still have yet to see someone successfully take legal action over it..

SilverStream~ · Jul 09, 2009, 04:03 PM

I sued someone for stealing my SilverStreamGraphics name and using it for his own site selling artwork his friend made using some 3d program and paintings.
I registered it before him, I trademarked it before him. I made the website mine before him so it's ~Mine.

I didn't have to pay anything either because the guy lost. Took.. a few weeks~months. Can't remember.

If you have a clear case, it doesn't cost much, and you're really just making the other person look bad and possibly paying for something that is un-necessary, because that person could just do a search first and have it clear what names one can use.

But mostly taking legal actions sucks and it just takes alot of time. Mine was fast because well, my lawyer is my cousin :3 And he helps me with my legal stuff anyways so it was no hassle.

Normaly you wouldn't sue, but if the person is really stubborn and basicly stupid, you go legal on his donkey. Plus it makes you feel good afterwards.

yC · Jul 09, 2009, 05:30 PM

I thought Usako and her website was best for it since she knew what she is doing and has a reputation in the RO graphic/sprite area. Aren't they coming back?

I don't want to consider the possibility of taking the job of her site at this point because her site isn't dead .. or is it?

LemonCrosswalk · Jul 09, 2009, 05:33 PM

People who made the graphic can show proof of them making it and the files building it and crap, along with the time stamp of WHEN it was created. No one yet has said they claimed it. They just say that they got it, they don't care, and they're going to use it.

A92FL0163 · Jul 09, 2009, 07:03 PM

Quote from: yC on Jul 09, 2009, 05:30 PM
I thought Usako and her website was best for it since she knew what she is doing and has a reputation in the RO graphic/sprite area. Aren't they coming back?

I don't want to consider the possibility of taking the job of her site at this point because her site isn't dead .. or is it?

Usako RUNE is awesome, but most posts done there are with the point of being able to download something of the site and rarely any worth post is done.

Just put the gallery with linkings to RUNE website.

kinzoku · Jul 09, 2009, 09:10 PM

This is true but it's painstakingly hard to have anyone remove work from their website. If it's just a sprite or a map you can't exactly sue them for it. Rune is technically more for downloading rather than seemingly "protect" files. I guess this is quite a bit of a challenge and nothing much can be done about it. Still, I feel like people don't even care about stealing work anymore. Since it was "impossible" a lot of people just think. "They stole the work, nothing you can do about it since RO is stolen anyways." Which is understood but it's like they just have no care for it or even want to try to do anything about it.

Aire · Jul 10, 2009, 07:26 PM

So this means that Delusion's also stealing your s***? lol

kinzoku · Jul 10, 2009, 07:46 PM

Not yet or hopefully not. Lol.

Annihilate · Jul 13, 2009, 09:22 PM

Lets call the offender OffenderRO, and the victim victimRO

(I ripped this off from one of my posts in another thread. The same things apply anyway, so I just modified it a little.)

As far as I know, eAthena and all its software is freeware under a GNU public license agreement. This means that everything that is/was/will be derived from it should be under the same agreement too. Customs from that old server being copied by offenderRO is actually ok, and they cannot get penalised for that.

Quote
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 2, June 1991

....

2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion
of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and
distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1
above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:

a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices
stating that you changed the files and the date of any change.

b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
parties under the terms of this License.

....

(Source: http://svn.eathena.ws/svn/ea/trunk/LICENCE)

Under the GNU, offenderRO by default has the licence to use the content. So as far as I can see, you can even move heaven and earth to prove that offenderRO did "use" victimRO's content, but with the following mitigating circumstances:

1. Even if offenderRO did it, they have the right to.
2. Even if it was unethical, its still within the bounds of eAthena's licence.
3. OffenderRO's reputation for originality may become tarnished, but they cannot be punished for this particular act alone.

The Bottomline:

1. eAthena is freeware. we were able to enjoy RO without paying for licences. It is then also our responsibility to contribute to the community by following the terms of use of the server software.

2. Corollarily, Intellectual property(software,sprites, custom items, custom maps, love letters, promo shirts et. Al. whose development can be linked to the use of eAthena ) rights do not hold in the same manner as patent for, say a new brand of Coke. OffenderRO did not [knowingly or unknowingly] break the law.

3. Read contracts. They are there for a purpose.

4. Well using the content is ok. But claiming it as their own is not.That is something wrong.

But if offenderRO says "We have customs like [insert list of rip-offs]" in their website then it is ok. It becomes wrong though if they say "We have original custom stuff like [insert list of rip-offs]" or "We wrote/made/drew [insert list of rip-offs] for use in our server"

The point to be proven here is the intent of offenderRO to not recognize victimRO's authorship [read: authorship and ownership in this particular discussion are 2 different concepts].

Wording is tricky, but sometimes, having to do some semantic nitpicking is necessary to maintain objectivity.

But yeah, if claim it as their own, I will help any grievanced party with plucking the eyes out of them bad people. Lol.

5. Originality is good but getting around general public concessions is not the way to do it. The offenderRO's players should decide for themselves if this rip-off is good enough we have no right to do the thinking for them.

6. Have you ever asked yourself why gravity isnt suing private servers even if we are clear rip offs from the original game? The GNU. Thats why. If people wish to protect their minds' creations from use by people they dont like, then they'd better build the whole thing from ground up and get a patent.

7. To intentionally make one's work[that falls under the quoted clauses] unreachable to the public is another breach of the GNU. Tbh, developers should even put the source code in it and not just the compiled material.

8. That "copyright commission" thing is a good idea, but it violates a pre-existing contract. [ok, guess which :/ ]

9. "ZOMG but i didnt know whatthehell that GNU was when i made the custom stuff!" - Not my fault.

10. I do not own any server or even plan to have one. I just know what I have gotten myself into.

*back to sleep*

LemonCrosswalk · Jul 14, 2009, 12:10 PM

I think the majority of people defending others from taking graphics and such are too lazy and/or lack the talent to do so. It mostly sounds like trying to justify you're ripping someone's work off while you know that is against the creator's wishes.

LiteX · Jul 14, 2009, 10:23 PM

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/junk-yard/arguing-about-copyrights/0/

It's pretty debateble, Silver has copyrighted some of her original RO stuff (Big Cards?), and Chexie has copyrighted some of her Art (Non-RO Related), so yeah...

Annihilate · Jul 15, 2009, 02:08 AM

Quote from: LiteX on Jul 14, 2009, 10:23 PM
http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/junk-yard/arguing-about-copyrights/0/

It's pretty debateble, Silver has copyrighted some of her original RO stuff (Big Cards?), and Chexie has copyrighted some of her Art (Non-RO Related), so yeah...

Yeah good point. But it takes a very detailed process in verifying the claims. I think complaints/ claims should be sent to the proper authorities because RMS does not have any reasonably fool-proof system to verify those.

kinzoku · Jul 15, 2009, 06:45 PM

Although I was somewhat aiming for a less legal thing and copy righting but more as a rule around RMS so if you steal someone elses work you can either remove the work from your server or be removed from the RMS listings. Since I'm fairly sure removing someone from the listing due to rules is not illegal.

P.S I think I responded to the one you posted in the other topic wondering about a clarification because the GNU is really really vague. I guess it was suppose to be made vague anyways.

Quote from: kinzoku on Jul 15, 2009, 05:03 PM
Quote from: Annihilate on Jul 13, 2009, 07:20 AM
As far as I know, eAthena and all its software is freeware under a GNU public license agreement. This means that everything that derived from it should be under the same agreement too. Custom from that old server being copied by Musique is actually ok, and they cannot get penalised for that.

Quote
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 2, June 1991

....

2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion
of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and
distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1
above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:

a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices
stating that you changed the files and the date of any change.

b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
parties under the terms of this License.

....

(Source: http://svn.eathena.ws/svn/ea/trunk/LICENCE)
Just checking something but it states that

Anything you make in part or whole from the Program "eAthena" or something like that is to be free to all third parties under the terms of this license.

I don't really think you make sprites or customs from the eAthena files or even the Ragnarok files.
Fully custom sprites made on their own "not modified from current sprites" do not abide by this rule?

I'm just seeking clarification because that sentence hardly makes sense.

EDIT:
When it's referring to the program I do believe it refers to the eAthena SRC and server files not the Ragnarok files in anyway. Thus if you make a completely new sprite from scratch it should technically be able to be made copy written because it is your work and your idea even if it's being used for something else.
Also to most of those people that state "Fan Art/Customs" can't be copy written because it's based off a copy written game or the characters/sprites on not their ideas. There's a lot of things that are parodies or comics about a game but are copy written.

Hutchy · Jul 16, 2009, 12:28 AM

I don't defend people who take s***, but I don't know why people complain about goddamn sprite recolors and things like that. I've sprited before, I don't think it takes talent so much as time (for most of the custom sprites I've seen, anyway...). I think most people could make a bow headgear if they tried hard enough, whether they're "talented" or not.

Show me an example of when someone sued over another server claiming ownership of custom sprites, and I'll start whistling a different tune, maybe... but until then, no dice.

I'm just tired of the damn fanart/sprite copyright thing. If I worry something that I made will be stolen if I put it online, I just don't put it online.

Edit: holy mother of typo

LiteX · Jul 16, 2009, 01:04 AM

Quote from: Hutchy on Jul 16, 2009, 12:28 AM
I don't defend people who take s***, but I don't know why people complain about goddamn sprite recolors and things like that. I've sprited before, I don't think it takes talent so much as time (for most of the custom sprites I've seen, anyway...). I think most people could make a bow headgear if they tried hard enough, whether they're "talented" or not.

Show me an example of when someone sued over another server claiming ownership of custom sprites, and I'll start whistling a different tune, maybe... but until then, no dice.

I'm just tired of the damn fanart/sprite copyright thing. If I worry something that I made will be stolen if I put it online, I just don't put it online.

Edit: holy mother of typo

Most people are very lazy (Heck, you see people begging for a server on a silver platter 24/7 in RMS), or they just think that "More Custom=Better Servers" so they just start stealing s*** from all servers they see.

And hasn't Silverstream or Chex sued someone for stealing copyrighted material?

And you have to take account that most of these things are either ripped or just stolen fanart, saying "If I worry something that I made will be stolen if I put it online, I just don't put it online." is like saying "You shouldn't put things in your pocket if you don't want to get pickpocketed!" or "You should not go out if you don't want to get robbed!".

And a bigger problem is that some people that don't even know wtf is copyrights, so yeah...

kinzoku · Jul 16, 2009, 02:11 AM

if you don't want to die don't live in the first place.

Stealing generic customs is not really something anyone should be worried about. Blue Valk, Red Fairy Wings, etc...

It's when people steal fully custom made sprites that were from scratch entirely is where the larger issues are.

Hutchy · Jul 17, 2009, 08:45 AM

Life/death =/= fanart on the internet. Lol.

kinzoku · Jul 17, 2009, 04:29 PM

Not so much fan art but efforted sprites and I was referring to what LiteX said

"You shouldn't put things in your pocket if you don't want to get pickpocketed!" or "You should not go out if you don't want to get robbed!".

Hutchy · Jul 17, 2009, 06:27 PM

I guess I'm the only one who operates on that train of thought. If I don't want s*** stolen, I take better care of it. And no, I don't keep my money in my pocket for that very reason. Maybe I'm just overly cautious...

kinzoku · Jul 18, 2009, 10:39 PM

Quote from: Hutchy on Jul 17, 2009, 06:27 PM
I guess I'm the only one who operates on that train of thought. If I don't want s*** stolen, I take better care of it. And no, I don't keep my money in my pocket for that very reason. Maybe I'm just overly cautious...

Well then propose a better way to protect our sprites? Just about any determined computer savy person can easily get them most of the time.

Hutchy · Jul 19, 2009, 12:49 PM

I never said I had a way of "protecting" custom material. Thus me saying if I don't want things stolen I don't make them available to anyone.

kinzoku · Jul 19, 2009, 03:23 PM

That could just be you but if everyone did that the world would still be back in the stone age.

Hutchy · Jul 19, 2009, 03:45 PM

But nobody's s*** would get stolen, would it? :3 And no one would come to RMS and cry about how someone recolored their goddamned Naruto headbands or whatever.. I'd prefer the stone age, I think.

kinzoku · Jul 19, 2009, 08:17 PM

A stone age where people can only dream of coloured Naruto head bands.

Hutchy · Jul 19, 2009, 09:01 PM

Nevermind, that sounds horrible. ;_;

A92FL0163 · Jul 25, 2009, 08:07 PM

rune is off qq

QuoteDear RUNE Members,

RUNE is down until further notice. This is not the end, mind you. We will be back, but we cannot be sure when. We are sorry for the lack of activity this past year, and we hope to revive this community in the near future. Please look forward to it!

-Usako

Squishy · Jul 25, 2009, 08:12 PM

How disappointing. /sarcasm

kinzoku · Jul 27, 2009, 08:08 PM

Well I guess this thing won't really be implemented.

LiteX · Jul 29, 2009, 08:15 AM

Quote from: kinzoku on Jul 27, 2009, 08:08 PM
Well I guess this thing won't really be implemented.

Oh well, and I was thinking that this would be the end of copyrights arguement...

blast · Sep 26, 2009, 08:25 AM

nice idea