Talon Ro

[BlackChurch]

  this is the worse server i played in over the 3 yrs i have played ro. one it is very anti-american. now the owner can say he is american and his gms are american..but i saw what i saw and i was not the only one to see it ..now i watched in main as people and gms criticized america..calling everyone in it basically white trash.. I mean really ? if the gms do not do their job to stop this sort of behavior  instead of participating in it maybe then i would not be here writing this or have wrote 4 previews on how bad this server is..it is NOT player friendly period and if you are noob you are in trouble..because the economy is talon coin based and oif you can't afford to donate you better make that autoloot last and make zeny as much as possible because once you hit base 70 there is no more autolooting and your are basically fawked ..kill stealing is also a major concern on this server even though it claims that is seriously frowned upon ..i was jailed for doing what another player had done to me only i was not fast enough to print screen their actions and when i finally did print screen another actions they did nothing !!! ..they also STOLE my last donation before i quit the server ..stealing my donation was the last straw and the owner blames paypal for the problem which is funny considering it was an error on their page which i sent them that disallowed my donation confirmation to go through..did they do anything about it NO..now the owner can argue this with me until his face turns blue..BUT FACTS ARE FACTS and i was not the only dissatisfied with the server many had quit they i come to know in only a month of playing had left.. and some left when i did ..once again i do not know how or why this server is popular..but it is a horrible server that i had the misfortune of playing or donating too.

[DeePee]

Weren't you already blacklisted from our RMS page for unreasonable flaming?

Oh well *reports to moderator*.

[yC]

He is disallowed from writing a review on your listing because he repeatedly ignored the site's review guidelines.

The forum is not governed by the same guidelines, here we provide much more space for the reviewer to share the experience and possibly get staff from the server to address the issue interactively.  We encourage everyone to voice their opinion here.  As long as they follow the forum rules.

[DeePee]

Alright, thank you for clearing that up.

Okay, so I don't know what's up with you. I've replied to your review four times now (five including this) and you keep deleting it, then making a new one with the same stuff in it. Maybe you are just uncertain about the things you write, I don't know. I'd say one review is enough for that.

Again, we are not anti-American. 75% of our GM team is American (heck, even more when counting the new GMs) and 50% of the population is American. People are free to criticize a country for its actions. If someone disagrees with the wars that the US starts, they are free to have a discussion about that, no? However, you won't see a GM hating a certain country. If there's a player doing so, you are free to make a report about it. But just as many complainers on RMS, you have not ever made one regarding that (and I read pretty much all of them). If you don't, how do you expect us to do something about it?

I'm not sure why you think the server is not player friendly. The server growth has exploded the past months. There are literally thousands of new players actively partying and hanging out together. We have added many ways to obtain Talon Coins through playing the game. 90% of the players obtain their coins through those methods. We stimulate our players to explore other maps than the usual farming maps and highly reward them to do that by rewarding them with more EXP, Reward Points (can be turned into Talon Coins) and other neat items. Not to mention the Rental system where you can do daily missions to earn Rental Weapons/Armors, which are very powerful items. These missions are based on your character's level so that anyone, regardless of how strong they are, can do the missions.
Maybe you haven't played the server long enough or did not read what we have to offer, because there's a lot for new players to participate in.

Autoloot indeed only lasts until level 70. Remember that it is not a default feature of Ragnarok. It's just a custom feature introduced by private servers that a lot of them happen to use. We however decided not to as it has proven to result in a lot of balance issues and can make things very, very unfair.

Killstealing is indeed something that is hard to control. GMs cannot be online 24/7 to monitor what our players are doing. We usually have over 700 non-vendors online at any time of the day. So for this, we rely pretty much completely on player reports. If someone reported you and the evidence was good enough, you will indeed get punished for that. If you did not get a screenshot, that's not our fault is it? We get many reports by players who send in a single screenshot that doesn't really show anything and then expect us to jail the player. Sorry, but that's not how it works.

As I answered in your previous reviews already, we do not steal donations. Our server has been up for nearly five years and this has never happened before, nor has it happened in your case. I think I know what support ticket is yours and there was indeed an error on the page (due to the MySQL server having issues). From the looks of it, your ticket was already replied to and your donation is just fine. Things like these happen. That does not in any way mean that we "stole" your donation. Seriously?

However, thank you for your review! I hope this is the final one though because typing the same thing five times is getting a bit tiring.

[BlackChurch]

i am not going to argue with you like i said and once again i know what i saw and others saw as it was brought to my attention because said person invited me to your server...it is not a player friendly server and you denying it won't help the fact. as i did report someone who ks'ed my char and they just laughed when i said i would report them..it was always happening ..also the anti-american remarks were made and you are right about one thing i should have print screened it ...but i do try not to get worked up about those things but when it happens constantly  well i had to say something..as for my donation i left the game *i am sure you are sighing with relief* so there is no way for me to get it ..so i will chalk it up to money lost and move on and i am not a HE i am SHE ...i will say this i did like the server when i first joined but the constant harassment and bullshyt from other players was a bit much ...and i know about the talon coins because as you know i donated more then once since i been there for that short period of time.

well good luck with your server and i really do think your gms should get on the ball about the anti-american comments ..white trash i am not ..anyway this is a done deal i really do not want to have a forum war with you or anyone else ..i am player trying to enjoy the game i come to like ..end of story ..have a good one 

[allstarskyway]

I believe the player and I have to agree with the RMS Administrator.

To DeePee: I have one friendly piece of advice to you, back off and know your place. I don't care if you are a very powerful GM in some small private server coz this is RMS! R-M-S!! This ain't your territory no more so you have no governance over what people post here and stop bringing your moderator attitude here coz in here you are just a normal member, you don't have any powers, you are powerless here. I believe what this player says, she would not put so much effort posting review here if there was no reasonable basis to do so. This player is telling the truth.

[MysticNight]

Are you aware that you are promoting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome AND RSI by disabling autoloot? I was about to play on your server and quickly deleted it when I saw this.
Seriously, at least make autoloot questable. What's wrong with you? We're in 2012. :/

[Myteriouss]

Are you aware that you are promoting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome AND RSI by disabling autoloot? I was about to play on your server and quickly deleted it when I saw this.
Seriously, at least make autoloot questable. What's wrong with you? We're in 2012. :/

I hope you never play iRO then rofl. iRO aint got ANY commands from what I know of for normal players

[Strudel]

Are you aware that you are promoting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome AND RSI by disabling autoloot? I was about to play on your server and quickly deleted it when I saw this.
Seriously, at least make autoloot questable. What's wrong with you? We're in 2012. :/

Well

Player counter:
Player peak: 1528
Players online: 1190

1190 users don't seem to mind this.

[DeePee]

Are you aware that you are promoting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome AND RSI by disabling autoloot? I was about to play on your server and quickly deleted it when I saw this.
Seriously, at least make autoloot questable. What's wrong with you? We're in 2012. :/

Pretty much what the other guys said. We have our reasons for not enabling autoloot after level 70. If for some good reason you cannot play without autoloot, I indeed agree you shouldn't play on this server.

[Charity Case]

Pretty much what the other guys said. We have our reasons for not enabling autoloot after level 70. If for some good reason you cannot play without autoloot, I indeed agree you shouldn't play on this server.

My god your like axe and hammer on any1 who posts reviews about ur server. Calm ur balls and stop smacking ppl with ban threats. The truth is simple, your server has  easy access 2 mvp cards, s*** community(over 9000 trolls), and just simply doesnt cut it for a low rate server.

Are you aware that you are promoting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome AND RSI by disabling autoloot? I was about to play on your server and quickly deleted it when I saw this.
Seriously, at least make autoloot questable. What's wrong with you? We're in 2012. :/

couldnt agree anymore

this is the worse server i played in over the 3 yrs i have played ro. one it is very anti-american. now the owner can say he is american and his gms are american..but i saw what i saw and i was not the only one to see it ..now i watched in main as people and gms criticized america..calling everyone in it basically white trash.. I mean really ? if the gms do not do their job to stop this sort of behavior  instead of participating in it maybe then i would not be here writing this or have wrote 4 previews on how bad this server is..it is NOT player friendly period and if you are noob you are in trouble..because the economy is talon coin based and oif you can't afford to donate you better make that autoloot last and make zeny as much as possible because once you hit base 70 there is no more autolooting and your are basically fawked ..kill stealing is also a major concern on this server even though it claims that is seriously frowned upon ..i was jailed for doing what another player had done to me only i was not fast enough to print screen their actions and when i finally did print screen another actions they did nothing !!! ..they also STOLE my last donation before i quit the server ..stealing my donation was the last straw and the owner blames paypal for the problem which is funny considering it was an error on their page which i sent them that disallowed my donation confirmation to go through..did they do anything about it NO..now the owner can argue this with me until his face turns blue..BUT FACTS ARE FACTS and i was not the only dissatisfied with the server many had quit they i come to know in only a month of playing had left.. and some left when i did ..once again i do not know how or why this server is popular..but it is a horrible server that i had the misfortune of playing or donating too.

couldnt agree anymore

[Yukino]

^ I just don't see how his quote had any relations with ban threats lol...
TalonRO seems to be one of the more popular LR servers, so I guess some things are done right at least . Oh well, your personal opinion after all!
All communities have trolls. If it's too good of a server, someone's bound to join it to make it bad on purpose. That's just internet life for you. However, I'm pretty sure the community isn't all that negative--you just didn't find the right people to play with, or that they didn't find you ><.

LOL, carpal tunnel syndrome. I loved how you brought that in XDD, just learned it in anatomy class last term <3! Haha, I can see where you are coming from XD, but then again, having no autoloot makes things a lot harder to get. Takes more effort to play, and some owners prefer that xD. Makes it harder for bots as well (if you need stronger characters).
Being in 2012 doesn't really make a difference... unless you're suggesting that there should be autoloot before the world perishes (not that I believe in this of course).

There's always stereotypes =/. But yeah, if staff members made any racist remarks, that would look bad for the server. Of course, you should always have screenshots to prove this if you want to make this point big for everyone to notice o-o...

[DeePee]

Dearest Charity Case,

I understand that you, based on this post and one you made without reason in another topic, do not like or have some quarrel with TalonRO.

You are free to think that of course. However, like Yukino kindly mentioned, no one is saying anything about ban threats. Nor am I being defensive with my previous post.

If that person suffers from RSI or something else, then TalonRO is simply not a server he should play. There are hundreds of servers around. I'm sure he'll find one he likes.

Just because one or a few people don't like some design choices we've made, doesn't mean they are wrong choices. These are our views on how we like Ragnarok Online and thus we designed our server around that. There are plenty of people who do like it.

The other guy's post I have already replied to so I shall not continue with that any more.

Love,
Me

[Sirroco]

No offense, but i recently started playing ragnarok as it has a nice classic feeling and its a fun game, my first server is exactly TalonRO, and you guys criticizing it are stupid, i like autoloot and dislike the fact that i cant use it beyond 70, but thats a choice they made and i got used to it already.

also, "small private server"? i lol'd HARD at this, it has more players than iRO's official vip server, and far more players than any other private server ive looked at, thats one of the reasons i joined, this server is probably the biggest private server currently.

the community is friendly too, when i started i asked about lots of things, normally people would get mad at newbies like that, but instead they helped me and pointed out sites(this one included) that would help me.

keep up the good work TalonRO, thats all.

[D1gITaLMaYhEm]

Well speaking from my TalonRO experience i can partially agree with what blackchurch is saying i had a horrible time the community was well....not too friendly : \, but they do have an extremely high player population(Good?:Bad? Prefrence. (: ), and really fun events. 

How they could improve there server.
1#Put a moderation on trolling/bullying ( i reported my case a few times...but nothing was done)


This is just imo =P ro servers are like.....icecream ^_^ some types you like and some you don't
this type wasn't for me 

[DeePee]

Could you pm me the link to the topics you made or the ticket id?  I'm interested in having a look at them.

We do try to prevent such things at all times (and punishments are quite harsh) but I'm sure you'll understand that we cannot always be there to monitor it. Especially on a server the size of tRO.

[TomTom33]

Honestly after CavaleRO died I had no hope in RO anymore. Honestly though , I always looked at Talon and passed it up on the list because of MVP items. I just started playing though and I love it. Floating Rates keeps the community involved , The populations huge and gives you the OLD RO feel , They have Vanilla WoE which restricts MVP items and OP donations which is more active than their regular WoE so basically the donations and MVP are for PVM which makes PVM fun and enjoyable. Every 2 mins someones looking for a party. It's great. Never gave this server a chance and now I love it.

[Charity Case]

Honestly after CavaleRO died I had no hope in RO anymore. Honestly though , I always looked at Talon and passed it up on the list because of MVP items. I just started playing though and I love it. Floating Rates keeps the community involved , The populations huge and gives you the OLD RO feel , They have Vanilla WoE which restricts MVP items and OP donations which is more active than their regular WoE so basically the donations and MVP are for PVM which makes PVM fun and enjoyable. Every 2 mins someones looking for a party. It's great. Never gave this server a chance and now I love it.

I can see where your coming from, that was me when i first started playing talonro. But to be honest, the 1 thing that completly destroys the server is the ability to get mvp cards so easy. It  defeats the purpose of making a low rate server, and as a WoE fanatic. there shouldnt be vanilawoe or w.e on a low rate server, it should just be woe. But glad 2 see you found ur home.

Something like LegacyRO is my taste.

[DeePee]

Well, there is no such thing really as "should not belong on x or y server". There is personal taste and a personal feeling for balance. We feel that it's more unbalanced on a low rate server that one certain person can completely overpower other players by being lucky and finding an MVP card.
Gravity's method of "balancing" things is basically by making things very rare, which is no balance at all, due to what I mentioned above. Therefore we decided to give everyone equal chances.

Some people like it, some don't. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing per se. There are plenty of people who do like it

[leonliger]

Well, there is no such thing really as "should not belong on x or y server". There is personal taste and a personal feeling for balance. We feel that it's more unbalanced on a low rate server that one certain person can completely overpower other players by being lucky and finding an MVP card.
Gravity's method of "balancing" things is basically by making things very rare, which is no balance at all, due to what I mentioned above. Therefore we decided to give everyone equal chances.

Some people like it, some don't. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing per se. There are plenty of people who do like it

Ah I so have to reply now. The "being lucky and finding a MVP card" Is how it should be, with that you actually had to work for that card. At a 0.1% drop rate it took along time to get it and whoever got it deserves to be a little OP. Gravity's method made it fairish somewhat minus the item up thing but than again it only brought it up to like...0.2%? Anyway still not a Huge change increase on getting it.

Now looking at Talon RO; It's a pay to win server. Talon's method of "balancing" is to make MVP cards donate-able to get. Meaning the rich are now the OP ones on Talon. Hmmm Seams a little off to me.

It's a good server for the most part good population minus the massive amount of vendors. Don't say something like "we only have 200+ vendors" because I highly doubt you've sat in the down and counted every single vendor. However who knows you  could have.

Anyway I threw my two cents in, Good Luck with the pay to win server.

[DeePee]

Ah I so have to reply now. The "being lucky and finding a MVP card" Is how it should be, with that you actually had to work for that card. At a 0.1% drop rate it took along time to get it and whoever got it deserves to be a little OP. Gravity's method made it fairish somewhat minus the item up thing but than again it only brought it up to like...0.2%? Anyway still not a Huge change increase on getting it.

Now looking at Talon RO; It's a pay to win server. Talon's method of "balancing" is to make MVP cards donate-able to get. Meaning the rich are now the OP ones on Talon. Hmmm Seams a little off to me.

It's a good server for the most part good population minus the massive amount of vendors. Don't say something like "we only have 200+ vendors" because I highly doubt you've sat in the down and counted every single vendor. However who knows you  could have.

Anyway I threw my two cents in, Good Luck with the pay to win server.

Ah, you're one of those kind.

It isn't how it's "supposed to be". How things are "supposed to be" is a subjective term. We greatly disagree with Gravity's "balancing by rarity" and instead offer everyone a fair chance to get the items.

No, TalonRO is far from a pay-to-win server. If you think that, you probably have not played it or have played it for a very short time, not exploring its features. Our balancing is by making them available through a Reward System. While donating for them is possible (though quite pricey), it's much easier and more fun to gather them through other means, which we offer plenty of. Majority of the MVP Cards are acquired through our Reward System: people joining events, killing MVPs, doing minigames, voting, monster of the week, etcetera. Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention that the best items still have to be hunted or quested for. Just shouting that it's a pay-to-win server is rubbish.

We have around 400-500 vendors online at any time. Is this weird? Not at all. We are probably one of the biggest servers around. With a high player count comes a high vendor count. We already limit this by restricting amounts of shops per connection and by limiting shops in towns. Furthermore, what does it matter at all? Every city is filled with people. Prontera and Payon are crowded. Of course there are many shops but there are plenty of non-vendors, generally around 500-800 on regular days and peaking up to 1000 non-vendors during WoE hours.

Anyway, here are my two cents. Good luck finding a server with 1000 players and 200 vendors.

[Aedra]

just because others can obtain the mvp cards through some work in events and stuff doesn't mean that people still aren't buying mvp cards

ie, pay to win, except with a fair chance for everyone else to work for them without a mindless grind of killing mvps all day every day on a spare chance it might happen that they drop

edit: but i think it over and it's not like being stocked up with ALL DE MVP CARDS really helps anyway except for being OP in talon's PVM department. aren't mvp cards disabled in your woe? never cared to look at talon's stuff specifically

[DeePee]

We offer Vanilla pvp/woe, yes. It's quite active with 200 people in a castle.

If one wants to pay, that's up to him. But it will by far not make him more powerful than others. It gives a nice base but you'll still get your *ss whooped by players who have quested and farmed for items unacquirable by donators.

[leonliger]

Ah, you're one of those kind.

It isn't how it's "supposed to be". How things are "supposed to be" is a subjective term. We greatly disagree with Gravity's "balancing by rarity" and instead offer everyone a fair chance to get the items.

No, TalonRO is far from a pay-to-win server. If you think that, you probably have not played it or have played it for a very short time, not exploring its features. Our balancing is by making them available through a Reward System. While donating for them is possible (though quite pricey), it's much easier and more fun to gather them through other means, which we offer plenty of. Majority of the MVP Cards are acquired through our Reward System: people joining events, killing MVPs, doing minigames, voting, monster of the week, etcetera. Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention that the best items still have to be hunted or quested for. Just shouting that it's a pay-to-win server is rubbish.

We have around 400-500 vendors online at any time. Is this weird? Not at all. We are probably one of the biggest servers around. With a high player count comes a high vendor count. We already limit this by restricting amounts of shops per connection and by limiting shops in towns. Furthermore, what does it matter at all? Every city is filled with people. Prontera and Payon are crowded. Of course there are many shops but there are plenty of non-vendors, generally around 500-800 on regular days and peaking up to 1000 non-vendors during WoE hours.

Anyway, here are my two cents. Good luck finding a server with 1000 players and 200 vendors.

"Ah, you're one of those kind." Judgmental are we now?

Also I will apologize I did jump to a conclusion, however Talon can be considered a "Pay-to-win" server sense you do have MVP cards (I could care less about everything else in the shop they all seam good and well to me) to get by donating meaning people  a lot of cash will be ahead of everyone from the start. Talon has a good population so people do like getting some of the games best cards with little to no effort. Ah well it is a pserver.


So you've sat down in the middle of all your big towns and counted every single vendor? right? 400~500 vendors you didn't just pull that out of your bum I hope. 500~800 non vendors again as stated above you've sat down and counted them all? I'm gunna go with a gut and say you haven't. Maybe it's wrong who knows.

"Don't say something like "we only have 200+ vendors" because I highly doubt you've sat in the down and counted every single vendor." Where did I say in there I was looking for a server with 1k+ people and 200vends? The 200 was an example of what someone might say as they pulled numbers out of their bum.

Again I do apologize for jumping to the conclusion of a p2w server. To a point it is p2w if you have the money.

[Aozora]

Pay to win is an interesting phrase actually, and often used incorrectly.

Pay to win refers to granting an extensive advantage to those who pay money, i.e overpowered items and other nonsense like that. This gives them an advantage over the rest of the population that the other population cannot reach, thus creating an environment where donators dominate the gameplay. However this only holds true as long as these advantages are not available to other players in a reasonable amount of time. If everyone has access to these things, then it is no longer pay to win, since paying does not make you win. If you can purchase items others can get in a reasonable timeframe, then you're no longer paying to win; you're simply paying to get a headstart. In fact you won't even get a headstart since majority of the population already has these items, you'll simply start at the same line other people are at. You won't win by donating in TalonRO.

Now if you look at at what tRO offers, you notice that there's a variety of ways to actually obtaining Talon Coins. Starting from plain and simple; buying them from other players. Just as you can buy any other gears and items sold by the reward guru. You can also play the reward games, monster of the week, participate in events and plethora of other things that let you farm the reward point and then translate them into Talon Coins. Most of these things are designed in a way that lets new players play and farm them to easily provide a fairly steady supply of Talon Coins into the economy.

Now what I find quite fascinating about some of these posts is the defense of the traditional drop based system imposed by Gravity. Now in Gravity's method you do indeed have to work for your loot, but then again you can literally grind an MVP for 8 months, only to lose your card to a champ who killed it once. Is that fair? You can argue that, that is how it's supposed to be. But that doesn't make it a good system, it makes it extremely random, unsatisfying and simply based on a random chance. That's poor design, if a player is willing to spend months farming an MVP, should he not be entitled to some sort of reward for his efforts?

Now compare this to how TalonRO does things, the reward system they have in place gives a fairly steady supply of reward points to those who are willing to farm the system. These reward points can then be translated into Talon Coins which can then be used to purchase the item you want. This ensures that given a certain timeframe, you can always get the item you desire. In essence the two systems are the same, they both require your effort, the difference is that TalonRO rewards you for your effort regardless of how lucky/unlucky you are. While the system based on chance is random and can completley screw you over no matter how long you keep farming.

You basically have a system with a guaranteed reward in a certain timeframe, versus a system based on chance. This is like comparing farming zeny from mob drops against farming zeny by overupgrading gears. One gives you a guaranteed return, while the other is fickle and random with no guaranteed return.

[DeePee]

So you've sat down in the middle of all your big towns and counted every single vendor? right? 400~500 vendors you didn't just pull that out of your bum I hope. 500~800 non vendors again as stated above you've sat down and counted them all? I'm gunna go with a gut and say you haven't. Maybe it's wrong who knows.

No need to count. A source mod shows us exactly how many shops there are.

[leonliger]

No need to count. A source mod shows us exactly how many shops there are.

Ah well mods are not always right and neither are humans~

Pay to win is an interesting phrase actually, and often used incorrectly.

Pay to win refers to granting an extensive advantage to those who pay money, i.e overpowered items and other nonsense like that. This gives them an advantage over the rest of the population that the other population cannot reach, thus creating an environment where donators dominate the gameplay. However this only holds true as long as these advantages are not available to other players in a reasonable amount of time. If everyone has access to these things, then it is no longer pay to win, since paying does not make you win. If you can purchase items others can get in a reasonable timeframe, then you're no longer paying to win; you're simply paying to get a headstart. In fact you won't even get a headstart since majority of the population already has these items, you'll simply start at the same line other people are at. You won't win by donating in TalonRO.

Now if you look at at what tRO offers, you notice that there's a variety of ways to actually obtaining Talon Coins. Starting from plain and simple; buying them from other players. Just as you can buy any other gears and items sold by the reward guru. You can also play the reward games, monster of the week, participate in events and plethora of other things that let you farm the reward point and then translate them into Talon Coins. Most of these things are designed in a way that lets new players play and farm them to easily provide a fairly steady supply of Talon Coins into the economy.

Now what I find quite fascinating about some of these posts is the defense of the traditional drop based system imposed by Gravity. Now in Gravity's method you do indeed have to work for your loot, but then again you can literally grind an MVP for 8 months, only to lose your card to a champ who killed it once. Is that fair? You can argue that, that is how it's supposed to be. But that doesn't make it a good system, it makes it extremely random, unsatisfying and simply based on a random chance. That's poor design, if a player is willing to spend months farming an MVP, should he not be entitled to some sort of reward for his efforts?

Now compare this to how TalonRO does things, the reward system they have in place gives a fairly steady supply of reward points to those who are willing to farm the system. These reward points can then be translated into Talon Coins which can then be used to purchase the item you want. This ensures that given a certain timeframe, you can always get the item you desire. In essence the two systems are the same, they both require your effort, the difference is that TalonRO rewards you for your effort regardless of how lucky/unlucky you are. While the system based on chance is random and can completley screw you over no matter how long you keep farming.

You basically have a system with a guaranteed reward in a certain timeframe, versus a system based on chance. This is like comparing farming zeny from mob drops against farming zeny by overupgrading gears. One gives you a guaranteed return, while the other is fickle and random with no guaranteed return.

I don't know about you but I'm going by what the words say. Pay to win~ you pay money to win something. Unless I'm mistaking something and "Pay to win" doesn't mean that and if that's so we might as well switch to a different Language.

"you can literally grind an MVP for 8 months, only to lose your card to a champ who killed it once." Yes that would suck but if you think about it; killing that MVP for those 8 months getting a lot of gears/ other items from the MVP that usually don't drop off normal monsters, you would've made a pretty penny and thus would just get it from a vendor that might be selling one. No you're not really getting screwed over. It actually evens out in it's own way.

[Aozora]

I don't know about you but I'm going by what the words say. Pay to win~ you pay money to win something. Unless I'm mistaking something and "Pay to win" doesn't mean that and if that's so we might as well switch to a different Language.

And what I'm saying is; You can't pay to win on TalonRO. Which is what I Was saying in my post as well....

You can of course spend hundreds of dollars to buy kahos and every single MVP card on the reward shop. Only to face the reality that majority of the playerbase already has this stuff, and in fact has better stuff than you have, and you can't get this best stuff through donations. So how exactly do you win in this case? You will simply be another average tRO player with his stash of MVP stuff. Just like a huge majority of tRO's playerbase.

EDIT: If you're talking about my statement that Pay to win is used incorrectly. What I meant was; that in RMS it's often used for anything involving donation items. Regardless or not if these items actually give you an advantage. If they're actual ingame items with stats and crap, RMS folks often just lump them in with the pay to win stuff, even if you can't get an advantage over normal player with the donation gear.

killing that MVP for those 8 months getting a lot of gears/ other items from the MVP that usually don't drop off normal monsters, you would've made a pretty penny and thus would just get it from a vendor that might be selling one. No you're not really getting screwed over. It actually evens out in it's own way.

But you're not getting what you're farming for, you want that card. The zeny is just a bonus but ultimately meaningless since you can't get the gameplay advantage you were after.

But the funny thing is that you seem to be fine with buying MVP cards from players? And you assume that said MVP card is available to buy from a player on a server where these drops are excessively rare. I'm pretty sure that on most servers you simply can't find too many people willing to sell MVP cards just like that, aside from TalonRO obviously. And if you can it's on the range of several hundred millions most of the time. While you may get zeny from the MVP grind you're doing, you most likely also spend zeny during this 8 month period, there's no guarantee that you will even be able to afford an MVP card even after extensive grinding of a single MVP.

But regardless, if you're defending Gravity's way to do it, then you should be able to provide reasoning as to why it's a superior system. Since all TalonRO does is take out the randomness of it. What you seem to be saying in your argument is that "Well yeah but you get the return since you get zeny and can buy the MVP card". So how is this different from grinding say reward games for Talon Coins and then buying the card that you want?

[leonliger]

And what I'm saying is; You can't pay to win on TalonRO. Which is what I Was saying in my post as well....

You can of course spend hundreds of dollars to buy kahos and every single MVP card on the reward shop. Only to face the reality that majority of the playerbase already has this stuff, and in fact has better stuff than you have, and you can't get this best stuff through donations. So how exactly do you win in this case? You will simply be another average tRO player with his stash of MVP stuff. Just like a huge majority of tRO's playerbase.

EDIT: If you're talking about my statement that Pay to win is used incorrectly. What I meant was; that in RMS it's often used for anything involving donation items. Regardless or not if these items actually give you an advantage. If they're actual ingame items with stats and crap, RMS folks often just lump them in with the pay to win stuff, even if you can't get an advantage over normal player with the donation gear.

But you're not getting what you're farming for, you want that card. The zeny is just a bonus but ultimately meaningless since you can't get the gameplay advantage you were after.

But the funny thing is that you seem to be fine with buying MVP cards from players? And you assume that said MVP card is available to buy from a player on a server where these drops are excessively rare. I'm pretty sure that on most servers you simply can't find too many people willing to sell MVP cards just like that, aside from TalonRO obviously. And if you can it's on the range of several hundred millions most of the time. While you may get zeny from the MVP grind you're doing, you most likely also spend zeny during this 8 month period, there's no guarantee that you will even be able to afford an MVP card even after extensive grinding of a single MVP.

But regardless, if you're defending Gravity's way to do it, then you should be able to provide reasoning as to why it's a superior system. Since all TalonRO does is take out the randomness of it. What you seem to be saying in your argument is that "Well yeah but you get the return since you get zeny and can buy the MVP card". So how is this different from grinding say reward games for Talon Coins and then buying the card that you want?

Yes I was talking about the incorrectly thing. It is pay to win to a point but after that seams legit~

The zeny is a last ditch effort or a "Hey look someone's selling the card" if you get lucky one day. Other than that you go back to killing the crap out of the MVPs.

I never said it was a "superior system" imo it just works better. Ex. iRO you can't get a Berzebub/GTB cards without having a good team/guild together you'll mostly not have a chance against them and with working with a team comes you gain experience on what your class can do in RO if some lucky bastard get a MVP card s/he just made that team/guild a stronger and they learn to work with it.

tRO, Ex. Berzebub/GTB; grind some events get the card. Awesome, now you and around 800 other people have 30% less cast time or 60% if you have two; and are running around with 50~100% immunity against magic. (dependent on the server and what kind of effect they have on the GTB)

As a veteran player of RO, tRO seams to....easy. Than again that would attract some people. Also no world championship.

[Aozora]

Yes I was talking about the incorrectly thing. It is pay to win to a point but after that seams legit~

To what point? Everything you can pay for is also available in game with no donations required whatsoever. Are EXP boosters also pay to win? Since they help you reach levle 99 faster than those with no exp boosters? The concept here is the same; evne with no donations you can still get everything a donator can. It just takes a bit longer.

You can't win with money in TalonRO, that's the whole point. In PvM a lot of people have these gears so you won't have an advantage over majority of the server population.
In in unrestricted PvP/WoE everyone once again has these gears so you won't have an advantage over anyone.
In Vanilla PvP/WoE no one has the MVP cards, kahos or any other custom gears so you won't have  an advantage over anyone.

If you're comparing yourself to a completely new player with no items whatsoever. And a player who donates for everything. Then yes, you will have an advantage, but only for a certain amount of time until this non-donator can get the gears you have without donations, and even this advantage vanishes in Vanilla environments. But even so, you won't be able to win on the server, since you will never get an advantage over majority of the server population simply by donation.

I never said it was a "superior system" imo it just works better. Ex. iRO you can't get a Berzebub/GTB cards without having a good team/guild together you'll mostly not have a chance against them and with working with a team comes you gain experience on what your class can do in RO if some lucky bastard get a MVP card s/he just made that team/guild a stronger and they learn to work with it.

So now you're arguing that team effort should give you superior rewards and teach your class? This seems mostly that you're talking about end tier PvM content, and the MVP cards being rewards for this content. Even though majority of the MVP's evne on official servers are in no way endgame.

I do agree that endgame content should reward players, but I don't agree on that these rewards should give you such extensive advantages that you're on a completely different level from the other players. Not to mention that your team effort is not rewarded by a team reward; you only get one card in one of thousands of possible kills. I would not say that it's an appropriate reward for a team effort, since majority of the team won't get anything out of it.

As for learning your class, this can be done in far better ways than incentivizing MVP parties with enormously overpowered rewards based on random chance wher the reward can be stolen by any passerby who might kill the MVP once. TalonRO in fact has endgame PvM content in the form of GM Challenge. Where each GM designs a short dungeon filled with mobs and MVP's  and finally a custom MVP designed by the GM. This is a team effort and requires at least 6 player party to even get in. The challenges are quite challengeing, for example GM Shirs' challenge is somethign majority of the players have never beaten, I'm not evne sure if it has been beaten by anyone.

the nice thing about the GM challenge is that it's
A) A lot more difficult, exciting and intensive than a normal MVP run
B) Rewards the entire party in the end.

While the GM MVP's have valuable loot on them, everyone in the party also gets a reward on their character. Which encourages parties a lot more since you know that you won't be left with nothing.

tRO, Ex. Berzebub/GTB; grind some events get the card. Awesome, now you and around 800 other people have 30% less cast time or 60% if you have two; and are running around with 50~100% immunity against magic. (dependent on the server and what kind of effect they have on the GTB)

This is entirely a balancing issue, and in no way tied to the Reward system TalonRO has. From what I hear players talk in tRO, most find the server to be quite well balanced. GTB is a concern only in 1v1 environments in PvP. And even so Mage players have found ways around it and wizards can regularly beat players wearing a GTB card. What you need to understand about tRO is that the gameplay is not like other servers. A huge majority of the MVP cards are completely custom and offer a completely different gaming experience than traditional RO.

Even veteran RO players are introduced to completely different kind of metagame than the kind they're used to. Because the game ultimately plays differently with these cards. How broken/good/bad this is, is of course open for debate. But arguing that it's bad simply because they're MVP cards is silly and shows unwillingness to get to know the mechanics and the metagame at all. In RMS our class balance is rated at 8.8, donation balance is at 86%. From what I know, those are fairly good.

As a veteran player of RO, tRO seams to....easy. Than again that would attract some people. Also no world championship.

In PvM sense, I can agree with you to some degree, i.e the basic PvM grind can be pretty damn easy if you're decked out with gears. MVP runs can be a lot easier in tRO when compared to say official server, given that in both cases there is a same sized team. But at the same time a lot of PvM content is tackled in smaller teams and numbers than in officials, in smaller parties the high end MVP's can still prove quite challenging. There's also the GM challenge which, as I've said, is quite challenging even with the degree of MVP cards available.

In PvP/WoE sense I disagree entirely. It's nowhere near easy. It's just as challenging, if not harder than on any other server. You can't just run through and kill everything even if you're fully decked out with the best gear in the game. It still requires tactics, strategy, teamwork, communication and everything else you'd expect. It's still challenging, and in fact proves even more challenging to most veteran RO players who come from more standard servers simply due to the completely different gameplay and metagame tRO has.

If you're talking about "it's easy to get everything" It's not. It still requires time and effort, and even after getting all the MVP cards, there's still gear beyond that which requires you to complete a long and difficult quest along with getting quite a bit of money nd items to make the gears. Getting MVP cards is easier than on most other servers yes, but only because they play an integral part in tRO's gameplay. And denying fairly easy access to gears that are integral to the gameplay, is just bad design.

[leonliger]

To what point? Everything you can pay for is also available in game with no donations required whatsoever. Are EXP boosters also pay to win? Since they help you reach levle 99 faster than those with no exp boosters? The concept here is the same; evne with no donations you can still get everything a donator can. It just takes a bit longer.

You can't win with money in TalonRO, that's the whole point. In PvM a lot of people have these gears so you won't have an advantage over majority of the server population.
In in unrestricted PvP/WoE everyone once again has these gears so you won't have an advantage over anyone.
In Vanilla PvP/WoE no one has the MVP cards, kahos or any other custom gears so you won't have  an advantage over anyone.

If you're comparing yourself to a completely new player with no items whatsoever. And a player who donates for everything. Then yes, you will have an advantage, but only for a certain amount of time until this non-donator can get the gears you have without donations, and even this advantage vanishes in Vanilla environments. But even so, you won't be able to win on the server, since you will never get an advantage over majority of the server population simply by donation.

So now you're arguing that team effort should give you superior rewards and teach your class? This seems mostly that you're talking about end tier PvM content, and the MVP cards being rewards for this content. Even though majority of the MVP's evne on official servers are in no way endgame.

I do agree that endgame content should reward players, but I don't agree on that these rewards should give you such extensive advantages that you're on a completely different level from the other players. Not to mention that your team effort is not rewarded by a team reward; you only get one card in one of thousands of possible kills. I would not say that it's an appropriate reward for a team effort, since majority of the team won't get anything out of it.

As for learning your class, this can be done in far better ways than incentivizing MVP parties with enormously overpowered rewards based on random chance wher the reward can be stolen by any passerby who might kill the MVP once. TalonRO in fact has endgame PvM content in the form of GM Challenge. Where each GM designs a short dungeon filled with mobs and MVP's  and finally a custom MVP designed by the GM. This is a team effort and requires at least 6 player party to even get in. The challenges are quite challengeing, for example GM Shirs' challenge is somethign majority of the players have never beaten, I'm not evne sure if it has been beaten by anyone.

the nice thing about the GM challenge is that it's
A) A lot more difficult, exciting and intensive than a normal MVP run
B) Rewards the entire party in the end.

While the GM MVP's have valuable loot on them, everyone in the party also gets a reward on their character. Which encourages parties a lot more since you know that you won't be left with nothing.

This is entirely a balancing issue, and in no way tied to the Reward system TalonRO has. From what I hear players talk in tRO, most find the server to be quite well balanced. GTB is a concern only in 1v1 environments in PvP. And even so Mage players have found ways around it and wizards can regularly beat players wearing a GTB card. What you need to understand about tRO is that the gameplay is not like other servers. A huge majority of the MVP cards are completely custom and offer a completely different gaming experience than traditional RO.

Even veteran RO players are introduced to completely different kind of metagame than the kind they're used to. Because the game ultimately plays differently with these cards. How broken/good/bad this is, is of course open for debate. But arguing that it's bad simply because they're MVP cards is silly and shows unwillingness to get to know the mechanics and the metagame at all. In RMS our class balance is rated at 8.8, donation balance is at 86%. From what I know, those are fairly good.

In PvM sense, I can agree with you to some degree, i.e the basic PvM grind can be pretty damn easy if you're decked out with gears. MVP runs can be a lot easier in tRO when compared to say official server, given that in both cases there is a same sized team. But at the same time a lot of PvM content is tackled in smaller teams and numbers than in officials, in smaller parties the high end MVP's can still prove quite challenging. There's also the GM challenge which, as I've said, is quite challenging even with the degree of MVP cards available.

In PvP/WoE sense I disagree entirely. It's nowhere near easy. It's just as challenging, if not harder than on any other server. You can't just run through and kill everything even if you're fully decked out with the best gear in the game. It still requires tactics, strategy, teamwork, communication and everything else you'd expect. It's still challenging, and in fact proves even more challenging to most veteran RO players who come from more standard servers simply due to the completely different gameplay and metagame tRO has.

If you're talking about "it's easy to get everything" It's not. It still requires time and effort, and even after getting all the MVP cards, there's still gear beyond that which requires you to complete a long and difficult quest along with getting quite a bit of money nd items to make the gears. Getting MVP cards is easier than on most other servers yes, but only because they play an integral part in tRO's gameplay. And denying fairly easy access to gears that are integral to the gameplay, is just bad design.

Ahha I see what you're doing, giant walls of text that could be broken down into so much less and making me not want to read it... so I skimmed everything.

You can win with money~ You get those cards/items fast and with those cards/items you hunt for better items and thus putting you far far ahead of any new player who doesn't p2w. But that's how the world works you get further ahead with less time spent into a char.

Just answered "to what point, you can't win with money and If you're comparing yourself" in one little thing.

I'm talking about PVM and WoE content. So you go into this GM event and you know the location of the MVP right where it is don't have to look for it or anything... yeah it'll give you a lot guild/teamwork, however the only problem I would see is people getting used to knowing where everything is in the MVP events. No surprises that pop out of nowhere and do some very harmful damage to the team which is what they'll experience on WoE.

GTB isn't really all that useful in 1v1s. I'm talking about more of a WoE thing or team vs team stuff. If you would like I can go into detail on how 800+ people with 50~100% magic immunity screws things in terms of strategy and class balance during WoE.

RMS balance thing I could care less about, it's more from people who play the server and not from people who quit that are rating it.

I'll have to disagree with you on the PvP/WoE. 1v1s maybe more challenging considering the massive equipment swaps you'll be doing during the match. WoE on the other hand with a entire guild fully decked out in MVP cards I can alredy think of a dozen or more strategies that would get an entire guild through a castle and to the emp with little to no people dying, thats with the opposing team being fully decked out in MVP cards as well.

Short straight and mostly to the point, you're answering most of my questions I've had about tRO. Maybe you should start a new thread with all these things we've said it would give people a look see from the viewpoint of a iRO player and a tRO player. Anyway Peace for now

[Aozora]

Ahha I see what you're doing, giant walls of text that could be broken down into so much less and making me not want to read it... so I skimmed everything.

I do this because it's easier to address individual points like this and retain a good degree of readability.

You can win with money~ You get those cards/items fast and with those cards/items you hunt for better items and thus putting you far far ahead of any new player who doesn't p2w. But that's how the world works you get further ahead with less time spent into a char.

But again, this same content is available to everyone with no donations whatsoever. You get a ahead, and then you hit a wall, and then those who didn't donate reach you eventually. Not to mention there are plenty of other people on that wall already. As I said, compared to a completley new person with no gear whatsoever who doesn't donate; yes you get a headstart. Compared to the server, you're just another average player.

I'm talking about PVM and WoE content. So you go into this GM event and you know the location of the MVP right where it is don't have to look for it or anything... yeah it'll give you a lot guild/teamwork, however the only problem I would see is people getting used to knowing where everything is in the MVP events. No surprises that pop out of nowhere and do some very harmful damage to the team which is what they'll experience on WoE.

Where the MVP is? o_O What?
The MVP's spawn on random location on the maps in these GMC's. You won't know where it s unless you can see the future. In fact I'm pretty sure the mobs spawns on all floors are random, you don't know where they are any more than you know where normal MVP's are.

In any case, finding the MVP and dealing with these "surprises" as you said, is never the main concern. If it is then it's a poorly designed MVP. Rather the question is how to mitigate damage, what's the best method to tank this, what's the ideal gearset for the tank, can we SW tank, how do we deal damage, Asura? DPS? AD? MAgic? How do we make sure no one dies? How do we deal with the mob spawns? How do we positions ourselves relative to the MVP? And so on, those are the real concerns in MVPing.

GTB isn't really all that useful in 1v1s. I'm talking about more of a WoE thing or team vs team stuff. If you would like I can go into detail on how 800+ people with 50~100% magic immunity screws things in terms of strategy and class balance during WoE.

You could, and I could then go in detail on how it doesn't. Because it seems to work fairly well in tRO. See there are basically two main cards people generally put in shields in tRO. GTB and Toad, toad grant you 35% demi human reduction. This creates an interesting situation; running into HW's cast wearing a Toad will probably get you killed fairly quick thanks to the fact that with bragi+instant cast spamming spells is extremely easy. The role of a wizard becomes that they force a GTB on the attacking guild thus decreasing their damage resistance and giving a chance for the heavy hitter and DPS classes to take them out. We could also throw in a prof to drop in a LP to stop the AoE, then run in our heavy hitters with toads on to try and take out their wizards in order to allow the team to advance. There's a lot more going on obviously like ion normal WoE, traps, Loki's Veils and all manner of other nonsense.

You can of course go into as much detail in analyzing how a GTB screws over the gameplay, but as you've demonstrated; You are quite clueless about the custom content and the degree of customization TalonRO has. While you may be more than qualified to comment on GTB's role and how it affects things on a normal RO server. TalonRO is not normal, the gameplay is different. And unless you've actually played it and know what you're talking about, commenting on it is quite silly.

RMS balance thing I could care less about, it's more from people who play the server and not from people who quit that are rating it.

From what I've seen quitters usually drop a rating too. And even if they don't; it still demonstrates that the large community of players in TalonRO finds the server to be fairly well balanced.

I'll have to disagree with you on the PvP/WoE. 1v1s maybe more challenging considering the massive equipment swaps you'll be doing during the match. WoE on the other hand with a entire guild fully decked out in MVP cards I can alredy think of a dozen or more strategies that would get an entire guild through a castle and to the emp with little to no people dying, thats with the opposing team being fully decked out in MVP cards as well.

I'm pretty sure you're once again talking about the standard MVP cards, and not the custom cards TalonRO actually uses. As I've said; majority of the MVP cards are customized. The original effects for a lot of the cards are just ridiculous.

[leonliger]

I do this because it's easier to address individual points like this and retain a good degree of readability.

But again, this same content is available to everyone with no donations whatsoever. You get a ahead, and then you hit a wall, and then those who didn't donate reach you eventually. Not to mention there are plenty of other people on that wall already. As I said, compared to a completley new person with no gear whatsoever who doesn't donate; yes you get a headstart. Compared to the server, you're just another average player.

Where the MVP is? o_O What?
The MVP's spawn on random location on the maps in these GMC's. You won't know where it s unless you can see the future. In fact I'm pretty sure the mobs spawns on all floors are random, you don't know where they are any more than you know where normal MVP's are.

In any case, finding the MVP and dealing with these "surprises" as you said, is never the main concern. If it is then it's a poorly designed MVP. Rather the question is how to mitigate damage, what's the best method to tank this, what's the ideal gearset for the tank, can we SW tank, how do we deal damage, Asura? DPS? AD? MAgic? How do we make sure no one dies? How do we deal with the mob spawns? How do we positions ourselves relative to the MVP? And so on, those are the real concerns in MVPing.

You could, and I could then go in detail on how it doesn't. Because it seems to work fairly well in tRO. See there are basically two main cards people generally put in shields in tRO. GTB and Toad, toad grant you 35% demi human reduction. This creates an interesting situation; running into HW's cast wearing a Toad will probably get you killed fairly quick thanks to the fact that with bragi+instant cast spamming spells is extremely easy. The role of a wizard becomes that they force a GTB on the attacking guild thus decreasing their damage resistance and giving a chance for the heavy hitter and DPS classes to take them out. We could also throw in a prof to drop in a LP to stop the AoE, then run in our heavy hitters with toads on to try and take out their wizards in order to allow the team to advance. There's a lot more going on obviously like ion normal WoE, traps, Loki's Veils and all manner of other nonsense.

You can of course go into as much detail in analyzing how a GTB screws over the gameplay, but as you've demonstrated; You are quite clueless about the custom content and the degree of customization TalonRO has. While you may be more than qualified to comment on GTB's role and how it affects things on a normal RO server. TalonRO is not normal, the gameplay is different. And unless you've actually played it and know what you're talking about, commenting on it is quite silly.

From what I've seen quitters usually drop a rating too. And even if they don't; it still demonstrates that the large community of players in TalonRO finds the server to be fairly well balanced.

I'm pretty sure you're once again talking about the standard MVP cards, and not the custom cards TalonRO actually uses. As I've said; majority of the MVP cards are customized. The original effects for a lot of the cards are just ridiculous.

Straight to the points please otherwise I just skim... unless you don't know how to explain things short and to the point.

Not sure about what well you're talking about. Even if you own a lot of good items there's always something else you can be trying to get.

I'm guessing in these events the maps are relativity smaller than normal areas with MVPs on them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Those "surprises" can do more harm than you think. MVPs can be predictable with what monsters are around but there are those with stupidly strong monsters around while you're looking for the MVP that can take you out with some "surprises"

Lets take it to a WoE perspective. Take a huge guild coming into a castle followed by some allies giving you around 35~40 people coming in to take a castle; whole your guild has around 25 people. With those "surprises" you can easily take out a good 15+ people before they reach the emp. If you've ever defended a castle with a good guild you'll know defending is a lot easier than attacking so those 25 people now coming in attack vs your 25 defending; the favors on your side.

Do you have a list of all the MVP cards that have had their effects changed?

[Aozora]

Straight to the points please otherwise I just skim... unless you don't know how to explain things short and to the point.

I prefer to go into detail rather than just quickly explaining something.

Not sure about what well you're talking about. Even if you own a lot of good items there's always something else you can be trying to get.

Indeed, and these items are not available via donation. But the thing I'm trying to say is that you cannot pay to win in an environment where majority of the people own the gears you're paying for and all of these gears are available to the players without any donations whatsoever.

I'm guessing in these events the maps are relativity smaller than normal areas with MVPs on them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

They're copied maps from real dungeons. In one GMC it's Ant hell, another uses LHZ3, 3rd is using some Thaantos tower  maps, 4th is using some Morroc pyramids maps and so on. Finding an MVP in some of those can be an issue since there is a time limit on this.

Those "surprises" can do more harm than you think. MVPs can be predictable with what monsters are around but there are those with stupidly strong monsters around while you're looking for the MVP that can take you out with some "surprises"

But that ultimately has a minimal impact on anything. Most of the time the best way to search for an MVP is to have a HP/Champ go to the map and just port around rather than rum through the dungeon with a massive party. If you die while seeking the MVP the punishment is non existent if you're max leveled and something easily shrugged off if you're not. Then you just head back in there and look for the MVP again. And any reasonable party will then proceed to the MVP's location as  a single group, and a group of 10+ people can easily take out any normal mobs on any dungeon.

And anyways, these surprises do happen in TalonRO's endgame PvM content as well.

Lets take it to a WoE perspective. Take a huge guild coming into a castle followed by some allies giving you around 35~40 people coming in to take a castle; whole your guild has around 25 people. With those "surprises" you can easily take out a good 15+ people before they reach the emp. If you've ever defended a castle with a good guild you'll know defending is a lot easier than attacking so those 25 people now coming in attack vs your 25 defending; the favors on your side.

Ambush and a surprise are two entirely different situations. A PvM surprise versus a WoE ambush is a very different scenario overall. On one you get a highly coordinated attack against a group of people, on another you get a mob rush that is 90% of the time extremely easy to defend and fight off. Applying what you learn in a PvM surprise to a coordinated ambush in WoE doesn't do anything else except hone your perception a bit. Defending against an ambush is not a striaghtforward task like defending against mobs is. Ambush is much more dependent on the people attacking and what classes and builds they use. You won't defend the same way against a couple of snipers, Bio and a HP than you do against couple of HW's, LK and a champ.

Do you have a list of all the MVP cards that have had their effects changed?

http://talonro.com/customfeatures.php

But I'm not here to really talk about the balance of the server or how well the MVP cards are tuned and so on, since the metagame can literally be discussed for an eternity. So that's an entirely different discussion. If you want to discuss balance then drop me a PM, or go to TalonRO forums and ask around. I'm mostly here to talk about TalonRO's reward system vs Gravity's system along with the "pay 2 win" impression you seem to have.

[leonliger]

I prefer to go into detail rather than just quickly explaining something.

Indeed, and these items are not available via donation. But the thing I'm trying to say is that you cannot pay to win in an environment where majority of the people own the gears you're paying for and all of these gears are available to the players without any donations whatsoever.

They're copied maps from real dungeons. In one GMC it's Ant hell, another uses LHZ3, 3rd is using some Thaantos tower  maps, 4th is using some Morroc pyramids maps and so on. Finding an MVP in some of those can be an issue since there is a time limit on this.

But that ultimately has a minimal impact on anything. Most of the time the best way to search for an MVP is to have a HP/Champ go to the map and just port around rather than rum through the dungeon with a massive party. If you die while seeking the MVP the punishment is non existent if you're max leveled and something easily shrugged off if you're not. Then you just head back in there and look for the MVP again. And any reasonable party will then proceed to the MVP's location as  a single group, and a group of 10+ people can easily take out any normal mobs on any dungeon.

And anyways, these surprises do happen in TalonRO's endgame PvM content as well.

Ambush and a surprise are two entirely different situations. A PvM surprise versus a WoE ambush is a very different scenario overall. On one you get a highly coordinated attack against a group of people, on another you get a mob rush that is 90% of the time extremely easy to defend and fight off. Applying what you learn in a PvM surprise to a coordinated ambush in WoE doesn't do anything else except hone your perception a bit. Defending against an ambush is not a striaghtforward task like defending against mobs is. Ambush is much more dependent on the people attacking and what classes and builds they use. You won't defend the same way against a couple of snipers, Bio and a HP than you do against couple of HW's, LK and a champ.

http://talonro.com/customfeatures.php

But I'm not here to really talk about the balance of the server or how well the MVP cards are tuned and so on, since the metagame can literally be discussed for an eternity. So that's an entirely different discussion. If you want to discuss balance then drop me a PM, or go to TalonRO forums and ask around. I'm mostly here to talk about TalonRO's reward system vs Gravity's system along with the "pay 2 win" impression you seem to have.

If you do that your post doesn't get entirely read by the person/ persons you're talking to.

the "surprises" give you a small amount of incite on the surprises in WoE which than you can build on~

Alright let's take this to the pms so we can get off the fourm post... Good Day

[Seri]

Only pay to win advantage I've seen on this server is some player donating a thousand dollars and buying few thousand EDP bottles.

Other than that, donations don't get you an incredible edge over other players besides the fact you do speed up your gearing timeline.

There is also a vanilla woe/pvp that bans mvp/custom items, which helps allievate the first concern. However, since most vanilla gears are available via donations (and cheaper than MVPs), there is room for donator's edge there as well.

Not everything is perfect, but the system does give longevity to the server (owners get paid = keep server alive) and still creates a competitive & dynamic setting for players (new & old). I would recommend trying out the server before making judgements based on theories.

[Judgement]

Pay2win is in any server.  Sure, they don't have things like MVP cards for sale, but you can always just sell the cash points for some zeny to players and buy top gears and supplies.  TalonRO has vanilla WoE which disables MVP cards and custom s***, so no problem with MVP cards.

[Silverbaine]

Its a "private" server correct? private servers have thier own rules... only the "Admin" has any right to say what those rules are imo...

[Zeny Hu]

TalonRO is the best server low rate server out there. It's #1 on the rating charts for a long time & has been around since 2007? you won't find a better low rate server than TRO.

[Mushu]

I've been playing RO for a long time. Played Anima from around 2004-2008. After quitting I started playing servers that haven't been customized and considering I've played Anima/Talon in the past unlike the critics here who are super biased, I can tell you that with the changes they have made such as vanilla woe, ability to get mvp cards without donating, not having bad admins (</3 Harken) actually make the server more balanced than "normal" private servers.

PvM isn't just a sniper fest of people DS+teleporting because they need to pick up the loot on tRO, so melee classes are worth something in hunting gear.

The only thing that is really "ruined" is MvPing but seriously, instead of taking 2 mins to kill Valk using "official" gears, they take 1 minute. Cool story.

The BEST thing about the server in my opinion is that it has a REAL economy. No, it doesn't have high inflation like other servers because it has no autoloot and it's tough on bots. I'd even say the economy is better than iRO's (can't think of any other private servers that I can say this) which is totally decimated by bots and bad management/

I applaud the GMs of Talon, especially DeePee for sticking with it so long, especially when it seemed dead with less than 100 players on one point. It's NEVER been wiped. I don't think you guys understand that. The same character that I made as a seventh grader is still on that server. I can't think of ANY other server that can say that. When Talon and DeePee got the server it was in shambles because it was previously used as a donation farm by an old Admin (Debbie), so it was bound to die but it has fixed all of it's problems unlike Animus, Talon's brother server which is now in extreme decline with 301 players online as I'm typing this compared to the 2,000 that it had 5 years ago.

That being said, am I going to play talonRO? Hell no. I'm no longer in middle/high school. I don't have 6-8 hours a day to grind niffleheim. What I will say though is that if you are willing to devote a lot of time to playing on any server, it would be stupid to choose any server other than talon.

TL,DR: DeePee is doing a great job.  Play the server for a month if you want to see if it's balanced or not, theorycrafting isn't going to work.

[Bacur]

I do not like Boreas, 'cos he is a really close minded person, but tRO is probably the only server that actually looks like a RO server.  And i prefer it to be like this instead of becoming just another RoMedic+Grayworld+AHK+Nodelay or gtfo server.

On the other lowrates people were crying over overpowered donation items ruining their pvp experience.
Now people want Vanilla WoE to be disabled 'cos they can not use their overpowered donation items at it.

On the other lowrates people were crying over AHK and bots.
Here they are crying over not being able to setup their bots and deal 20 millions of damage per WoE with thier lookatmeiknowhowtosetupanAHK snipers.

People are crying over everything.

People are crying.



BTW LoL unfriendly community? Come to an any GvG server, and i will show you an unfriendly community. I think one casual conversation should be enough for you to quit using Internet.