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Offline horo

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #30 on: Jun 03, 2009, 04:32 PM »
Pretty sure HR players cannot even deal with 'enemies that do the same thing over and over', i.e. Biolabs 3 because they've never perfected their playstyle during 'hunting and grinding'. Obviously PvP is best to learn PvP, and WoE is best to learn WoE, but perfecting the basics is still something you learn during PvM. You're right that motivation to learn is a very important factor, but usually HR players just aren't as dedicated to learning to play their class as much as LR ones because they haven't put any effort into it to begin with.

Then again, I don't think much of people that play RO solely for PvP anyway, as those tend to be the worst kind of players in all respects.

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Offline Jeon

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #31 on: Jun 03, 2009, 06:04 PM »
That's a pretty broad statement, and a degrading one at that.

Just because you don't "Hunt and Grind" like a LR player doesn't mean you lose all general aspects of the game. There are other ways to learn the mechanics of a server, just by focusing and practicing. To say that HR players don't have the experience to deal with enemies that do the same thing over and over is ignorant. Obviously, I can tell you have something against HR servers, and instead of accepting that they're great RO servers you degrade them.

Perfecting a playstyle is not only dependent on "Hunting and Grinding", sure hunting maybe a factor but grinding isnt. Grinding only teaches you the basic in which in all cases can be learned differently, not just by grinding.

No, perfecting the basics can be learned in many different ways, the obvious way is PvE in which most players tend to choose because that's how it is in almost every MMO. Yet, utilizing all skills to use, is learned by PvP. Anyone can spam a skill on a monster for hours because a monster just does the same thing over and over. However, playing in PvP tell your mind to utilize most of your skills because your opponent isn't just gonna stand and take a beating.

What's the difference between LR and HR? Obviously one just levels faster in a short amount of time. "Time" is the only difference, poking monsters and damages are all the same, HR just get more EXP. However, in your case "Time Played" is the key. In my statements I described "Motivation played" to be the key. I know you agree motivation is a factor, but you also imply "Time played" is a greater role. Players being force to sit and grind for hours is no skill at all. When the person does have motivation to learn on a LR, they cant access it in the time frame they want to because it would take too long to obtain the skill points needed to access it. Noone is going to wake up the next day being cheerful knowing that they have to sit and grind for the next few hours for EXP so they can access their skills.

If anything on a Highrate, if I really wanted to sit down and know my skills. I would simply level in an hour or two. Access my skills and then ask a friend to test on to see how the skill would work. Or I could just fight off an MVP with the skills I want to learn.

On a LR, let's say I want to try out this great skill, but I'm 4 skills under before learning it and I don't have enough skill points to access all of them. Obviously on a LR it would take days before I can access them, probably by then I would lose interest and forget about it.

I'm a good example of a HR player, and trust me I can walk through Biolabs 3 fine.
"Humans will forever make mistakes, what makes us intelligent is knowing which ones to keep"

Offline horo

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #32 on: Jun 03, 2009, 06:18 PM »
You're really easy to lure into writing huge posts, I like you :3

Since you mostly repeated your previous arguments, I have little to comment on.

Leveling is somewhat fast (getting gear isn't, but that doesn't make new skills available generally) even at lower rates if you know how to go about it, and only involves excessive amounts of grinding if you want it to.

As for testing builds and skills, that's what stat calcs and test servers are designed for, and even HR don't lend themselves too well to the extensive amount of testing one needs to learn the in and outs of a class.

Offline SilverStream~

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #33 on: Jun 03, 2009, 06:41 PM »
Thing is, on a low rate you have more devotion and time for your character.  You will always have a stronger connection to something you have been having/doing for a long time.  Also you everything you learn sticks more when playing on a low rate, that's because you spend so much more time on it.

On a high rate you often make a character, but it's very different from the low rates.  You can go out and kill things almost without gear, it takes little time to level and build your character, you won't get the same connection and "home feeling" as you would on a low rate.

A good example of this is not ro, but wow servers.  On the official WoW servers you have to create a person and work with things/people around you for a long time, especially when leveling to lvl 80.  On some private servers you can level to lvl 80 in a week, and you don't get the same community around you, and you're left with a more empty gameplay, since your community and the people around you is half the game.


Leveling on a low rate will teach you the game better, and you will get a better community then on a high rate.

So.. off topic much?  No but really, low rates are better to play if you like playing mmo's, and talking to people, roleplaying and those sorts of things.  On a highrate it's like using cheats for a diablo game.  You get my point.
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Offline fluidin

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #34 on: Jun 03, 2009, 10:08 PM »
This is like how you should experience the game as it is supposed to before you attempt to use "cheats".

I have visited highrates before, and ironically the best players (that I have met) amongst them have all had some sort of lowrate experience. And they truly dominate PvP there.

Sure, some people have the motivation to learn while not wanting to pace through the game properly, but those who succeed are RARE. I have one friend (RL) who botted through 20-99 to his PvP champion, and he was sub-champ for his MSRC team, which made it into RWC. He spent hours killing people in PvP everyday though. But he was also at one point top 50 in the world ranking for Gunbound, Top 10 CS nationals, 2k for 2v2 and 3v3.

And these people are RARE. Anw, if you go straight to highrates, doesn't it mean that your motivation to learn the game is already inferior as compared to people determined to slog through lowrates? TBH, both "time played" and "motivation to play" are about as important as each other. Practice = "time played" too if you haven't noticed. And you will find both of them in LRs moreso than HRs.
XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.

Offline LiteX

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #35 on: Jun 04, 2009, 03:35 AM »
Yet the highest level of skill in PvP/WoE you will always find on the really low rate servers. Player skill is quite more important than people make it out to be, and so is being knowledgeable about equipment, rather than just having great gear to begin with but no idea how to utilize it, which describes 95+% of the HR server playerbase.

That can be arguable depending on the server. It's obvious that every server is played differently than other servers. Also every server has different items. Sure there maybe a some background that they share, however not being able to utilize the game to it's full extent because of countless hours of hunting and grinding can cause a player to drop everything and move on to another server.

The longer you spend in the game,the better you'll become.

Not because you finally get items with low drop rates, but because you manage to acquire knowledge of a large part of game mechanics. Leveling slowly allows you to experience so much more (and learn as a result) than the HR player.

I like your opinion however, being repetitive in regards to grinding and poking monster to level is in no way of gaining much experience at all. Sure you know how to kill an AI, to the extent use just point and click because the monster basically does the same thing over and over. I do agree that you learn the games mechanics by leveling, however this can be said on a HR server also. You may not spend the time it takes on a LR, but on a HR you can learn faster.

It's a fact that when you play competitively, you learn more. In PvP, the opponent is not an AI that repeats what it does. Most of player nowadays set up their builds just for PvP. In my knowledge, grinding levels teaches almost nothing at all other than killing AI's and utilizing skills.

On a HR you can all the skills you need in a record week, on a LR you can only do what you can as of now and hope tomorrow you can get the skill point you need to actually use them.

Like I said before; "The harder you play the better you will become" because if a player really wanted to learn something they would learn it with motivation instead of coming across it in due time.

"The longer you player, the better you are", I believe this to be a weak statement because anyone can can poke monsters for hours and not learn a sense of mechanic at all in the server.

I believe the harder you try the better you become. The more motivated you are the better you will become. Some people are forced to level for hours just to catch up; Everyone wants to be max level wouldn't it be great and just get maxed level in a short amount of time to just finally play the game instead of spending hours killing monster while everyone else is having fun?

If you want players to learn the mechanics, don't lower the rates so you can force the players to use the time they have to level to learn the game mechanics. If anything, they have to be motivated and willingly by choice to learn the game mechanics.

That is my opinion, I believe if a player "wants" to play the server they are willing to learn by "choice" and try hard to understand the game mechanics. Instead of playing for hours and hours to come across something they might have no interest in.




Most HR players are viewed as imbeciles is because most people make a 255 Champ in one day without even knowing how to play one properly

And @fluidin, I agree, this forums also agree too because if you check the job discussion/guides/general discussion, most of the moronic questions come from HR players
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Offline BRabbit

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #36 on: Jun 04, 2009, 04:02 AM »
One I can see in EternityRO is the fact that admins favour one guild over another. Sadly, I'm pretty sure every populated private server is like this so changing servers won't help.

Offline Jeon

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #37 on: Jun 04, 2009, 07:36 AM »
Most of everything I learned was from HR, and I've been playing for 4 years. Most dumbasses do go to HR, that's because they want to learn things fast. The fact that they want to strays away from LR, because they know they don't have the time to compete with others. If anything people only join LR to be with their friends, I on the other hand have always been solo jumping server.

I agree that it is rare to find good players in HR, but in my experience I've come across those who came from LR server and had no idea on how the specific server they joined are played. Sure they might now how to utilize skills, but never did they spam it so fast or never have they seen a fight pass by in 10 seconds. Most fights in a reasonable PvP (such as XileRO) tend to last one minute in a half.

I believe getting items should be easy, how do you obtain knowledge of an item if you don't even have one? You're hunting for hours and hours for a card that doesn't seem to drop, how do you have first hand knowledge of an item that you don't yet have? People don't gain skills just by hunting it, because they simply have it yet. If anything, the person should spend at most 10 minutes - 15 minutes hunting it. Once they have it, test it in PvP. Thinks of ways to use it to their full extent.

Cmon now, if a opponent beats me on a LR because he has certain cards that really give him an advantage. Let's say Garm card, in order for me to come back I will need to hunt for hours finding an anti freeze a card. Probably by then, he would sign off, maybe not play anymore, or just lost the motivation to PvP at all.

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Most HR players are viewed as imbeciles is because most people make a 255 Champ in one day without even knowing how to play one properly

And @fluidin, I agree, this forums also agree too because if you check the job discussion/guides/general discussion, most of the moronic questions come from HR players

Is it wrong to ask questions? You're a moron for not asking questions in my perspective. Whether it is moronic or not, it's a question just like any other, it shares a motivation for knowledge. This is proof that most of the questions that are being asked are from HR, because they want to learn.
"Humans will forever make mistakes, what makes us intelligent is knowing which ones to keep"

Offline LiteX

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #38 on: Jun 04, 2009, 08:47 AM »
Most of everything I learned was from HR, and I've been playing for 4 years. Most dumbasses do go to HR, that's because they want to learn things fast. The fact that they want to strays away from LR, because they know they don't have the time to compete with others. If anything people only join LR to be with their friends, I on the other hand have always been solo jumping server.

I agree that it is rare to find good players in HR, but in my experience I've come across those who came from LR server and had no idea on how the specific server they joined are played. Sure they might now how to utilize skills, but never did they spam it so fast or never have they seen a fight pass by in 10 seconds. Most fights in a reasonable PvP (such as XileRO) tend to last one minute in a half.

I believe getting items should be easy, how do you obtain knowledge of an item if you don't even have one? You're hunting for hours and hours for a card that doesn't seem to drop, how do you have first hand knowledge of an item that you don't yet have? People don't gain skills just by hunting it, because they simply have it yet. If anything, the person should spend at most 10 minutes - 15 minutes hunting it. Once they have it, test it in PvP. Thinks of ways to use it to their full extent.

Cmon now, if a opponent beats me on a LR because he has certain cards that really give him an advantage. Let's say Garm card, in order for me to come back I will need to hunt for hours finding an anti freeze a card. Probably by then, he would sign off, maybe not play anymore, or just lost the motivation to PvP at all.

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Most HR players are viewed as imbeciles is because most people make a 255 Champ in one day without even knowing how to play one properly

And @fluidin, I agree, this forums also agree too because if you check the job discussion/guides/general discussion, most of the moronic questions come from HR players

Is it wrong to ask questions? You're a moron for not asking questions in my perspective. Whether it is moronic or not, it's a question just like any other, it shares a motivation for knowledge. This is proof that most of the questions that are being asked are from HR, because they want to learn.

1) The best way to learn is by slowly grinding and seeing which technic is best during your leveling
2) HRs tend to be overcustomized, which nulls the legit experience for some LR players
3) Fights in LR passing faster than HR? =_=, EDP SB and Asura can kill someone if less than three seconds, if it's not that than it is YggBerry spammage (Ppl carry hundreds of them in HR), and there is protection and potting for increasing fight duration
4) This is why test servers are for, for testing card combos
5) Mostly, server veterans who have a high amount of skill,luck and patience are the only ones who get such rare cards, someone who recently joined a server shan't be able to kill a vet
6) Most of these questions are overasked questions, please, the search button exists for a reason, if they just go posting out of the blue without using it then it proves they are somewhat on the wrong spot, of course, they want to learn, but please, how would you like if your worldwide RO discussion forums were filled with questions like "HOW DO I MINE 4 FISH PLZ!!!", "HEY PLZ GM UNBAN ME!!!", honestly, these questions are made by impatient people who really don't know wtf is happening and they just post out of the blues, and what by "You're a moron by not asking questions?", well, simple, I ASK QUESTIONS, usually I test some things out and ask someone who is more knowledgeble than me (Mainly horo) about them if I have any difficulties, the thing is, my questions usually have some though and good spelling on them, not like "PLZ PLZ WHERE I GET STUFF, GUIDE PLX", most of these kinds of questions come from HR players, mainly the big-name ones like ScythRO, XileRO and aeRO
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Offline horo

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #39 on: Jun 04, 2009, 09:19 AM »
HOW DO I MINE 4 FISH PLZ!!!

I search for this and don't find an answert -_- please GM??? my server is darksuperbloodRO, help -_- im also bannd.

Offline fluidin

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #40 on: Jun 04, 2009, 09:42 AM »
lol'd.

Also, that you think LR players have never seen a fight last less than 10 seconds is fail already. It just reinforces my view that further discussion with you regarding that particular aspect is useless :x I also doubt XileRO is decent pvp. Watch RWC vids for decent pvp instead.

We have knowledge about certain cards even if we don't have them because we plan beforehand. Always curious, always looking for new ways to utilize game mechanics, always playing with the calcs.
XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.

Offline Jeon

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #41 on: Jun 04, 2009, 12:02 PM »
HOW DO I MINE 4 FISH PLZ!!!

I search for this and don't find an answert -_- please GM??? my server is darksuperbloodRO, help -_- im also bannd.


So you let that statement speak of the rest of HR players?


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1) The best way to learn is by slowly grinding and seeing which technic is best during your leveling

That's only best for leveling, plus anyone can poke and spam a monster that basically does the same thing over and over.

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2) HRs tend to be overcustomized, which nulls the legit experience for some LR players

That totally depends on the server, RO isn't made for LR players. Every players comes from a different background depending on which server they played first. The only legit experience is from the real RO, the one that Gravity intended us to play. I've seen a lot of LR that have a lot of customs, so saying that HR servers are the only ones that are over customized is ignorant. Every server is different you cannot play the way you did on another server.

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3) Fights in LR passing faster than HR? =_=, EDP SB and Asura can kill someone if less than three seconds, if it's not that than it is YggBerry spammage (Ppl carry hundreds of them in HR), and there is protection and potting for increasing fight duration

Little did you know some HR carry a Anti YGG system. Obviously Most Devs and Admins know how stupid it is to carry hundreds of YGGs into battle. It'll be a forever going battle. Just because you hear HR, doesn't mean YGG spammage. This could be avoided in HR as much as they are in LR. Also, EDP and Asura is easily scripted so that it is most reasonable in PvP. EDP SinX cant use consumables, and Asura Capped. Just because you hear HR, doesn't mean we let things go off the way it is. It's a private server and most of the smarts one knows how to manage a reasonable server. Unlike those who just want money.

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4) This is why test servers are for, for testing card combos

Yes, because a player is actually gonna go through all that trouble just to test a few cards /sarcasm. Funny thing how you mention that, a player will actually have to duplicate the cards and combos of that specific server their playing. Every server isnt the same, some Devs choose specific ways to script their cards. So making a test server to match the server that their playing on is too much trouble just for card combos and skills testing.

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5) Mostly, server veterans who have a high amount of skill,luck and patience are the only ones who get such rare cards, someone who recently joined a server shan't be able to kill a vet

I Lol'd at this statement. So you're saying if I played RO for a few years and just joined a new server, I'm already stupid because I haven't played as along as Vet's on the server? No a person who has no life spends all day hunting cards, it matters how you use "patience". Countless hours of hunting something that drops no more than 1% is patience, Ill give you that, but it's patience wasted. "Time played" should not distinguish player's skills. "Experienced gained" is the proper term. No one cares how long you did it, how fast you did it, as long as you learn something from it, that's all that matters. And I'm telling you guys "Grinding and Hunting" is not the only way to be learn things, there's other ways. Also, I think every player should stand on a same level as any other player on a item basis that is. The outcome of a battle should be skill dependent on how a player can utilize his/her skills to combat the opponent, not by how long you played the server and how long you sat for hours hunting an item. Utilizing skills should be attained on how much experience you gained while playing the server now how long you played the server.

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6) Most of these questions are overasked questions, please, the search button exists for a reason, if they just go posting out of the blue without using it then it proves they are somewhat on the wrong spot, of course, they want to learn, but please, how would you like if your worldwide RO discussion forums were filled with questions like "HOW DO I MINE 4 FISH PLZ!!!", "HEY PLZ GM UNBAN ME!!!", honestly, these questions are made by impatient people who really don't know wtf is happening and they just post out of the blues, and what by "You're a moron by not asking questions?", well, simple, I ASK QUESTIONS, usually I test some things out and ask someone who is more knowledgeble than me (Mainly horo) about them if I have any difficulties, the thing is, my questions usually have some though and good spelling on them, not like "PLZ PLZ WHERE I GET STUFF, GUIDE PLX", most of these kinds of questions come from HR players, mainly the big-name ones like ScythRO, XileRO and aeRO

Wow, you obviously have no perspective. Not everyone speaks English,and also the way that kids speak on the internet is somewhat slang. You cannot blame them for speaking like that, especially those who don't know good English. A question is a question, no matter how you put it. A question will ask for knowledge, it doesn't matter if the question has bed spelling error. If anything, you have to be tolerant about it, if you don't understand simply ask for clarification, that's if you have the Patience. In this case, I know you don't.

Obviously it's good to test thing before asking, yet not everyone thinks that way, you shouldn't assume people will test it before asking.

Also, I'm not talking to only, I don't care if you questions have good spelling. The trust and fact is that most people don't speak English. Someone with enough integrity should accept that to be how society is. If you go anal about someone elses spelling, then I can tell you're a hypocrite saying us HR have no patience when you yourself don't have patience to be tolerant to bad grammar.

lol'd.

Also, that you think LR players have never seen a fight last less than 10 seconds is fail already. It just reinforces my view that further discussion with you regarding that particular aspect is useless :x I also doubt XileRO is decent pvp. Watch RWC vids for decent pvp instead.

I never said that LR players have never seen a fight less than 10 seconds nor did I imply it. Yet if you were to somehow measure the time frame of HR to LR, you will see that HR battles seem to go by faster.

XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.


We have knowledge about certain cards even if we don't have them because we plan beforehand. Always curious, always looking for new ways to utilize game mechanics, always playing with the calcs.

And I'm not disagreeing with you that some players already know the effects of certain cards. Obviously anyone who has experience will know the effects. However due to private servers some cards maybe re-scripted to fit the server's specifics. Any server can play with the calc, obviously like I said numerous times before some calcs don't fit the server's customs profile. What you see on the calc may not be what it is on the server, vice versa. The argument I'm trying to pull is that, there are ways to utilize the game mechanics other than "Grinding and Hunting", in this case most HR give players choices to experience the game another way rather than the same old "Grinding and Hunting" like every other MMO. Dont get me wrong I agree that "Grinding and Hunting" works to help newbies learn the games mechanics, but I also agree that there are other ways.
« Last Edit: Jun 04, 2009, 12:25 PM by Jeon »
"Humans will forever make mistakes, what makes us intelligent is knowing which ones to keep"

Offline horo

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #42 on: Jun 04, 2009, 12:19 PM »
You're assuming a 99/70 HR with high droprates on everything but overpowering cards (boss/mvp) and gears I assume? Plus Ygg restrictions and whatnot you need to desperately keep the inherent flaws of HR to a minimum, when I seriously doubt such a server even exists to begin with. HR are usually more unbalanced equipment/class wise than LR, the imbalance just moves up a tier or two.

Looking solely at the players, almost all the innovations in gameplay/builds/gear have come from official servers, from players "with no life", from sakray testing and stat calculators. Hunting and grinding is a great way to perfect techniques such as dancing and get a feel for every single aspect of your class, which is something that eludes HR players. The HR players you portray are some kind of idealistic myth that most of us that have played HR server know does not exist in reality, or is far rarer than card drops on LR servers.

Offline Jeon

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #43 on: Jun 04, 2009, 12:49 PM »
You're assuming a 99/70 HR with high droprates on everything but overpowering cards (boss/mvp) and gears I assume? Plus Ygg restrictions and whatnot you need to desperately keep the inherent flaws of HR to a minimum, when I seriously doubt such a server even exists to begin with. HR are usually more unbalanced equipment/class wise than LR, the imbalance just moves up a tier or two.

I never said perfectly balanced. If you read closely, I've been using the word "reasonable" instead of balance/ed. No server is perfectly balanced. Of course a LR would seem more closer to balance than a HR, because you need to keep the inherent flaws of a HR server to a minimum like you said. It is unbalanced compared to a LR because of customs and stats management. Like I said before, every server reaches for a reasonable fitting. With enough work, you can get a HR server to actually keep the inherent flaws to a minimum.

Looking solely at the players, almost all the innovations in gameplay/builds/gear have come from official servers, from players "with no life", from sakray testing and stat calculators. Hunting and grinding is a great way to perfect techniques such as dancing and get a feel for every single aspect of your class, which is something that eludes HR players. The HR players you portray are some kind of idealistic myth that most of us that have played HR server know does not exist in reality, or is far rarer than card drops on LR servers.

I agree, Hunting and grinding is a great way to perfect techniques. Yet, it's not the only way. I do agree "Grinding and Hunting" is something that ignores HR players, yet it's still and option for them. Grinding may not be a factor simply because the server is HR. Hunting however can be just the same, on a HR we actually buff the MVPs and certain important monsters so that it's not too easy nor too hard. And a reward will be given if the opposing monster is killed. It may not be 100% drop but it certainly will not be under 1%. LR players aren't the choice makers in everything. You portray that LR players are the ones that are more important and should make the decisions. Some HR players do learn just by playing HR servers. Every server has its own share of dumb players, saying that most come from HR server is ignorant. In perspective there are more HR server than they are LR server, thus leading to more population of HR players and dumb players from HR.

I'm a good example of a HR player that knows what he's doing most of the time. I may not know everything and I have never claim that I did. Yet, saying HR player have no experience at all is a broad statement. If anything kids actually hurt themselves while playing is because the game itself is too slow moving. Kids will spend countless hours just grinding and playing the game. Usually for me it's just level in a day, next day hunt, gather the things I need, and just PvP. All of this hunting and gathering can be done in a week or two, then I can finally jump in the game and play it.
"Humans will forever make mistakes, what makes us intelligent is knowing which ones to keep"

Offline Hutchy

Re: What makes a good server gone bad?
« Reply #44 on: Jun 04, 2009, 05:36 PM »
I'm not quite sure if this qualifies for "off topic" or not.
It's rare that I come to RMS anymore. I won't see any messages you leave me here.