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Author Topic: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?  (Read 28455 times)

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Offline Blinzer

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #45 on: Jun 16, 2016, 05:17 PM »
Mental Charge had never a cool down time when using teleport in pre-renewal.
It all changed when rAthena start to use the Renewal client claiming it was still possible to switch to pre-renewal with no consequences.
The Mental Charge skill is a very good example for the rAthena mentality. They claimed right away it was actually a bug that Gravity forgot to fix, so they did it afterwards.
This is not a bug that players did hide secretly, it was how game was played.
Many players have reported this but rAthena now claiming they are not aware of it because it never was addressed correctly.
This is going on for years now, rAthena wasn't able or didn't want to change it back but they are aware of it.
Just one example, many things are very different and it got even worse when start to copy Classic also.

If you want something done, do it yourself.
« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2016, 05:36 PM by Blinzer »

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Offline Wyvern

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #46 on: Jun 17, 2016, 09:39 AM »
People are used to playing with the eA bugs, and in some cases, it can be more fun with them. But yeah, I'm glad a lot of them are getting fixed.

Offline Styx

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #47 on: Jun 19, 2016, 02:41 PM »
If you want something done, do it yourself.

That approach, is one of the problems indeed.

Offline Minabe

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #48 on: Jun 20, 2016, 12:48 AM »
Doing Tripper's job.
« Last Edit: Oct 19, 2016, 08:08 AM by Minabe »

Offline Playtester

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #49 on: Jun 20, 2016, 04:30 AM »
Well, it's true that some things are a bit debatable, like checking if something is a bug or not. Going by logic, it feels that cooldown resetting on teleport / re-hatch was never the intended behavior. Why else would they put a high cooldown and make it so that on higher skill levels the percentual active time of the skill increases?

I guess that's one of the grey areas. I'd make it optional, but I don't even know how it was originally implemented. If someone could link me the commit that changed it, I'd take a look though.

And yes, it's an open source project so you can always help fixing things yourself. If you provide a full fix to rAthena + proof, I'm sure an rA dev will apply it. If things are official we pretty much always accept them.

Offline blame20

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #50 on: Jun 20, 2016, 11:32 AM »
I look forward for version 2 of DOM. I'm about to try the server out but I'm in the wrong timing and not aware of the current issues about the server.  /heh I'm a player of low-rate server. Already tried 3 low rate servers. :) I'm a potential player of the version 2 of DOM. I'll be looking forward for the 2nd version of DOM, Zinnia. Stay positive mate.  /no1

Offline Styx

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #51 on: Jun 20, 2016, 07:57 PM »
Well, it's true that some things are a bit debatable, like checking if something is a bug or not. Going by logic, it feels that cooldown resetting on teleport / re-hatch was never the intended behavior. Why else would they put a high cooldown and make it so that on higher skill levels the percentual active time of the skill increases?

I guess that's one of the grey areas. I'd make it optional, but I don't even know how it was originally implemented. If someone could link me the commit that changed it, I'd take a look though.

And yes, it's an open source project so you can always help fixing things yourself. If you provide a full fix to rAthena + proof, I'm sure an rA dev will apply it. If things are official we pretty much always accept them.

You know I respect your efforts and dedication, do not doubt that I do. Many bugs resolved from rAthena were good indeed. However, that doesn't stop me to trigger you where it goes wrong. The cooldown resetting on teleport wasn't the intended behavior but in practice this bug was so good it made Lif actually playable and competable against Vanil. (Before A*hole like Zinnia developed a way to exploit it, though that would never be the approach of a casual player) So, they never changed it until Renewal came (It wouldn't matter because of Homunculus-S but it does if you still run Pre-Renewal) and later Classic, which was actually based on Renewal as well. Classic isn't really to consider as Classic for that matter. There is no good working Mirai available for instance, if it would work proper anyway. I have a working one and an tweaked Azzy one as well but it will be a bridge to far for your casual or returning player to get it working, they won't recognize the changed ID's by far and rAthena never bothered with it either. I am only aware of Hercules devs working on it to give a solution. Still it is just an example, this renewal client with hard delays is very stubborn and changed many things and I am aware I only know a few things because I still can remember how it was. Like there was no cooldown on Chaotic Blessings back in those days but now there is.

« Last Edit: Jun 20, 2016, 08:09 PM by Styx »

Offline Playtester

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #52 on: Jun 21, 2016, 04:17 AM »
iRO classic isn't renewal based. I found several differences in skills when testing. If it's fixed there, then I consider it correct on rAthena too.
You are right though that many problems are created by using the renewal client. However, there's nothing I can do for that.

Creating balanced gameplay isn't the job or goal of rAthena (and wasn't of eAthena either). That's left up to the server owners.

Alone the fact that everybody just gets the same Homun clearly shows that it isn't balanced at all. If it was about creating balance I wouldn't solve it by allowing a weird cooldown bug, though. I'd rather balance all the homun skills so all four of them are reasonable choices.

Offline Blinzer

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #53 on: Jun 23, 2016, 04:26 AM »
You know I respect your efforts and dedication, do not doubt that I do. Many bugs resolved from rAthena were good indeed. However, that doesn't stop me to trigger you where it goes wrong. The cooldown resetting on teleport wasn't the intended behavior but in practice this bug was so good it made Lif actually playable and competable against Vanil. (Before A*hole like Zinnia developed a way to exploit it, though that would never be the approach of a casual player) So, they never changed it until Renewal came (It wouldn't matter because of Homunculus-S but it does if you still run Pre-Renewal) and later Classic, which was actually based on Renewal as well. Classic isn't really to consider as Classic for that matter. There is no good working Mirai available for instance, if it would work proper anyway. I have a working one and an tweaked Azzy one as well but it will be a bridge to far for your casual or returning player to get it working, they won't recognize the changed ID's by far and rAthena never bothered with it either. I am only aware of Hercules devs working on it to give a solution. Still it is just an example, this renewal client with hard delays is very stubborn and changed many things and I am aware I only know a few things because I still can remember how it was. Like there was no cooldown on Chaotic Blessings back in those days but now there is.

Dog.

Before reading this post, I want you to know that I don't think you deserve a single word I'm about to say.


(click to show/hide)

You are literally 3 seconds away from changing the delay to be reasonably comparable to whatever utility it presented before, without even needing to change the source. If you actually got off your butt and wanted to make a change in the world with your "amazing" knowledge, you would have figured this out, contacted the admin of whatever server you play on, explain to them your flawless reasoning which they no doubt would agree with, and guide them through the steps of making the change.

What appears to me as such a contradiction here is that despite this amazing knowledge you claim to present(and makes you think you have the right to go around aimlessly firing at people), you failed to put it to good use to the world because blabbing was the extent of your ability. Even by following the rules of your own argument, you are the problem here because you don't make the difference between the problem existing and not existing. It takes the guy you called the "problem" to figure it out for you.


People who complain about everything but do nothing are so insufferable.

Offline Zinnia

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #54 on: Jun 23, 2016, 10:51 PM »
(just dropping by and reading Styx calling me an a**hats and implies i'm a cheater, good!)

I used to agree to that point of view but now I don't think emulators should be in charge of the balance of RO. RO is a flawed game by definition because too old. There's great charms to it but some of its elements are just wrong for the occidental F2P MMORPG player. And it includes game balance. Though when we see some games like Blade & Soul released in 2015 and with a game balance probably as poor as RO, I don't think the problem lies in the hands of the developpers anymore.

Anyway, I believe it's the job of the product managers / server admins to adapt their servers to the market they want to target. Fixing RO as a whole makes little to no sense when some of your playerbase actually likes those bugs. It's something that I came to understand with DoM. Whatever you do you will always have people disagreeing with you. And when you touch a skill, or game balance, you potentially ruin the fun of hundred of players, whether this "fix" is fair or not.

I used to believe RO should be fixed and the playerbase educated to acknowledge what they liked was a bug, but the game has been way too customized by the emulators and the server admins over the years than fixing some of these mechanics permanently would potentially be followed by a massive leave of casuals. Consequently, blaming Playtester and the emulators for not trying to "fix" RO is in my current opinion wrong. As someone very wise said in this topic: if you want something done, do it yourself.


and btw :

I look forward for version 2 of DOM. I'm about to try the server out but I'm in the wrong timing and not aware of the current issues about the server.  /heh I'm a player of low-rate server. Already tried 3 low rate servers. :) I'm a potential player of the version 2 of DOM. I'll be looking forward for the 2nd version of DOM, Zinnia. Stay positive mate.  /no1

thank you <3 I've good hope I can start working on it again in july. I think I might have found a solution to player retention issues and woe/casual communities clash. Whenever we get close to the release, I'll communicate clearly about all the key elements of DoM v2 via emails and social medias.

Offline Minabe

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #55 on: Jun 26, 2016, 03:17 AM »
Doing Tripper's job.
« Last Edit: Oct 19, 2016, 08:07 AM by Minabe »

Offline Styx

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #56 on: Jun 26, 2016, 08:08 PM »
iRO classic isn't renewal based. I found several differences in skills when testing. If it's fixed there, then I consider it correct on rAthena too.
You are right though that many problems are created by using the renewal client. However, there's nothing I can do for that.

Creating balanced gameplay isn't the job or goal of rAthena (and wasn't of eAthena either). That's left up to the server owners.

Alone the fact that everybody just gets the same Homun clearly shows that it isn't balanced at all. If it was about creating balance I wouldn't solve it by allowing a weird cooldown bug, though. I'd rather balance all the homun skills so all four of them are reasonable choices.

It isn't about balance, it is about how it was. Ro was never balanced and it never will be.
For pre-renewal I still prefer eAthena above rAthena because it is closer to how it was.
Not every player will get the same Homun. There are specific reasons to choose a different one.
An available and good working public AI for rAthena (all Homuns) would be an improvement.
Though it was just an example, SG Miracle now having Renewal values would be just another one of many.


Offline Styx

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #57 on: Jun 27, 2016, 02:00 AM »
Dog.

Before reading this post, I want you to know that I don't think you deserve a single word I'm about to say.


(click to show/hide)

You are literally 3 seconds away from changing the delay to be reasonably comparable to whatever utility it presented before, without even needing to change the source. If you actually got off your butt and wanted to make a change in the world with your "amazing" knowledge, you would have figured this out, contacted the admin of whatever server you play on, explain to them your flawless reasoning which they no doubt would agree with, and guide them through the steps of making the change.

What appears to me as such a contradiction here is that despite this amazing knowledge you claim to present(and makes you think you have the right to go around aimlessly firing at people), you failed to put it to good use to the world because blabbing was the extent of your ability. Even by following the rules of your own argument, you are the problem here because you don't make the difference between the problem existing and not existing. It takes the guy you called the "problem" to figure it out for you.


People who complain about everything but do nothing are so insufferable.

You should try that first indeed, it might be more complicated.

http://irowiki.org/classic/Mental_Charge
« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2016, 02:12 AM by Styx »

Offline Blinzer

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #58 on: Jun 27, 2016, 07:29 PM »
You should try that first indeed, it might be more complicated.

http://irowiki.org/classic/Mental_Charge

... Jesus christ.
« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2016, 07:37 PM by Blinzer »

Offline Styx

Re: What happened to Dawn of Midgard?
« Reply #59 on: Jul 20, 2016, 06:18 PM »
Now, did you try it to change these and see what the effect really is? Or are you consisting in referring to a code that should do the job, but it doesn't really?
I don't have amazing knowledge, I just try things that are different from the usual brainless copycat line. For instance many servers run rAthena with the Renewal monster AI.
Now, while this looks very challenging but in fact it defaults the game to have less choices, there is just one build one strat possible.
Mainly based on either high Dex or tank ability's but many other choices could be possible under real pre-renewal settings.
There is no ultimate choice or strat, it depends on the situation, you have to make a choice, that is why Ro was so good, that choice could make the difference in a specific situation.
For instance on Feelro with Megiddo Guild I would like to take on the Sniper MVP right away, because I had an Osiris card. This was against What Guild and we stole it three times in a row. Then What Guild, pretty good players and guild also, developed a new strat to counter this. The thing is if I never had done this What Guild would still win this MVP with the strat they usual used.
That is what Ro is really is about, someone else makes you considering your own strat. What guild was good they weren't stubborn and changed their strat to counter it successfully.
Maybe you think too much in lanes, for sure there are many things I don't know but there are many things I do know also. A Champ with 3 AK's I will outdamage in real pre-renewal but not on this rAthena junk running Renewal monster-AI. Now it is your turn to say something stupid, but I will learn from it anyway, so go ahead.

« Last Edit: Jul 20, 2016, 06:37 PM by Styx »