Reinventing Ragnarok - by a Game Designer

[ShadowLight]

If the gaming content had any value, then it won't be a waste of time in the first place and you won't need to build an entire achievement system to provide players with an incentive to complete it.

Besides, the misused of achievements in games has made it a joke.

You're right, if the tutorial is essential, it shouldn't be an achievement. But my plan is to provide reward (by giving achievement + small reward) for players who did a complete run through the tutorial, meaning that we have non-essential part of the tutorial that the players can do or skip. Players can always go back and complete it which is good for those who want to know more (or achievement-whores  ).

The misuse of achievement system is definitely true for many games especially if it is used for the main content of a game. The true purpose (based on many designer's opinion) is to provide a small reward players for finding something that is not part of the main story or content. For example, one can simply add in achievements like "Killing 25 poring in 10 seconds" or "Captured 10 different pets". Does this have value to the main story? No, not really, but SOME players do love it. They feel awesome for discovering those kind of achievements.

- These are my opinions (doesn't mean I'm right). But I'm more than happy to hear you guys' thought and arguments. This is a forum afterall

Cheers!

[Suspension]

If the gaming content had any value, then it won't be a waste of time in the first place and you won't need to build an entire achievement system to provide players with an incentive to complete it.

No. People think tutorials have no impact on a game besides learning how to play it, they don't consider it gaming content. Rewarding achievements counters it.

[Malfis]

Wanted to try, sadly to see server f*** up... i mean.. can't register properly, patcher fail to patch, full client download time 7 hours and after downloading it, files are corrupted...

[Bue]

- These are my opinions (doesn't mean I'm right). But I'm more than happy to hear you guys' thought and arguments. This is a forum afterall

For a mid-rate Ragnarok server, the standard reward is to allow players to skip the early game.

As a policy, the 'tutorial' should be optional or partial.

The 'tutorial' will consist of a series of 'test' and each test will consist of a series of 'puzzles.'

Each 'puzzle' will reward the player by supplying early game item / equipment or base / job level experience.

Each 'test' will reward the player with larger rewards like cards or level to next job tier.

The final reward for completing the 'tutorial' will be based on the player's proficiency, i.e. the total number of points collected for each puzzle. The reward can range from raising the base or job level to rebirthing the player's class.

EXAMPLE

You probably have to re-word the question into something friendlier.

Puzzle

Spoiler

Given X amount of elunium and Y amount of level 1, 2, and 3 armor, what refinement strategy produces the highest refine rate combined? (Provide a reference to the refine_db.txt table.)

[close]

Solution

Spoiler

Refine each level 1, 2, and 3 armor up to their safe refine rate assuming the elunium and armor amount is adjusted accordingly.

[close]

As you can see, the puzzle is neither easy or difficult, but requires some thinking and demonstrating or learning knowledge.


I think this is less devious than my earlier suggestion, less work compared to building an achievement system, and less of a joke.

[ShadowLight]

Wanted to try, sadly to see server f*** up... i mean.. can't register properly, patcher fail to patch, full client download time 7 hours and after downloading it, files are corrupted...

Hi Malfis, I'm extremely sorry. I should have mentioned this earlier but the link you probably went to is the old BETA server. I had to leave the server months ago due to issues with the hosting company. Massive lag, DDOS and IPB was hacked multiple times. These problems have been reported again and again but was totally ignored by the hosting company.

I just bought a new server (literally just yesterday) and currently setting up the new website, forum and CP. I'll announce it in the "Server Advertisement" section when it is ready for official launch. I truly apologize for your trouble you had to go through. Let me know if you want me to send you a PM when it is announced.

For a mid-rate Ragnarok server, the standard reward is to allow players to skip the early game.

As a policy, the 'tutorial' should be optional or partial.

The 'tutorial' will consist of a series of 'test' and each test will consist of a series of 'puzzles.'

Each 'puzzle' will reward the player by supplying early game item / equipment or base / job level experience.

Each 'test' will reward the player with larger rewards like cards or level to next job tier.

The final reward for completing the 'tutorial' will be based on the player's proficiency, i.e. the total number of points collected for each puzzle. The reward can range from raising the base or job level to rebirthing the player's class.

EXAMPLE

You probably have to re-word the question into something friendlier.

Puzzle

Spoiler

Given X amount of elunium and Y amount of level 1, 2, and 3 armor, what refinement strategy produces the highest refine rate combined? (Provide a reference to the refine_db.txt table.)

[close]

Solution

Spoiler

Refine each level 1, 2, and 3 armor up to their safe refine rate assuming the elunium and armor amount is adjusted accordingly.

[close]

As you can see, the puzzle is neither easy or difficult, but requires some thinking and demonstrating or learning knowledge.


I think this is less devious than my earlier suggestion, less work compared to building an achievement system, and less of a joke.

Yeap, that's what I was thinking too but my rewards are much "less". The server I'm building is very "party-oriented", though it might help those who plays the game alone, it might cause problem with players who want to level up together (possibly generating huge level gap).

So far, I've implemented reward (boosted exp & basic weapons) for completing it . Though I don't have it for the whole RO game. Just tutorial for the customized portion of the server.

[annaquin]

We went from reinventing ragnarok to change tutorial WTF

[ShadowLight]

We went from reinventing ragnarok to change tutorial WTF

I have to agree, we've chat about tutorial long enough - was a good discussion though. Let's talk about other factors/features that can be improved - there are a lot of them.

Here is few of my many childish (note the word childish - not a great idea) dream:

Immersive adventure experience: Sure the teleport system is great - saves time and energy to travel ... BUT I secretly wish I have to travel (by foot/mount) to go to another city. There I'd be able to meet other travelers and see more of the world. The closest I get to realizing that dream is my idea of upgrading the airship. Players could take a chill pill and chat with one another on the ship while traveling to their next city. How about you guys? Do you have other ideas to make the adventure feels more "real" or to make it fun - without punishing players to spend time traveling?

Closest City Respawn Point: Instead of respawning at your save point, I'm thinking of making the player respawn to the closest city. What do you guys think about this idea? Any possible problems that might be introduced if this is implemented?

[Orange]

Immersive adventure experience: Sure the teleport system is great - saves time and energy to travel ... BUT I secretly wish I have to travel (by foot/mount) to go to another city. There I'd be able to meet other travelers and see more of the world. The closest I get to realizing that dream is my idea of upgrading the airship. Players could take a chill pill and chat with one another on the ship while traveling to their next city. How about you guys? Do you have other ideas to make the adventure feels more "real" or to make it fun - without punishing players to spend time traveling?

For travel to be interesting in RO to me I'd have to see
-Large cooldown or cost on fly wings.
-More 'stuff' around, some form of harvesting or add mini-bosses to every map. Most other MMO's have harvesting/exploration rewards and mounts to speed it up. RO has neither, though it's generally worth stopping to kill a boss you come across in RO

I just started everquest II again, on a new time-locked server(so currently it's as the game was in 2004) - old school travelling. There is enough to do while roaming and enough players that it is fun again. We barely have enough players on official EQ2 server, I can't really see RO pulling it off sadly.

I see no problem with respawning at closest city, or hell even "respawn on this map" as an option - again, every other MMO uses it, there simply not enough people walking around fields to give random res's these days.

[ShadowLight]

For travel to be interesting in RO to me I'd have to see
-Large cooldown or cost on fly wings.
-More 'stuff' around, some form of harvesting or add mini-bosses to every map. Most other MMO's have harvesting/exploration rewards and mounts to speed it up. RO has neither, though it's generally worth stopping to kill a boss you come across in RO

I just started everquest II again, on a new time-locked server(so currently it's as the game was in 2004) - old school travelling. There is enough to do while roaming and enough players that it is fun again. We barely have enough players on official EQ2 server, I can't really see RO pulling it off sadly.

I see no problem with respawning at closest city, or hell even "respawn on this map" as an option - again, every other MMO uses it, there simply not enough people walking around fields to give random res's these days.

Good to know someone had the same feeling for fly wings as well. They just destroy immersive aspect in the game. Same goes for teleportation skill (or card skill). I need to come up with a plan to modify them for more combat purpose.

I've already implemented mini-bosses on every map (players seem to love this feature the most!). I'm planning to add more things like world event. Perhaps a siren and warning on nearby city telling you there's a big creature approaching from the west. Players can react to be a hero (or just ignore and level up - not judging).

As for random ress, I plan to add a long-cd (1-hour perhaps?) ress skill for each job. Hopefully it would add value to meet random people or playing with friends.

[Orange]

Good to know someone had the same feeling for fly wings as well. They just destroy immersive aspect in the game. Same goes for teleportation skill (or card skill). I need to come up with a plan to modify them for more combat purpose.

I've already implemented mini-bosses on every map (players seem to love this feature the most!). I'm planning to add more things like world event. Perhaps a siren and warning on nearby city telling you there's a big creature approaching from the west. Players can react to be a hero (or just ignore and level up - not judging).

Yeah, combat-teleport just seems silly for an MMORPG. From mob dropping, to making farming "fwing double strafe, fwing double strafe repeat until overweight"

Are you able to disable it in combat? If so, do that + add fairly large CD should make it feel normal. Just read about the minibosses everywhere, do you have a server running ATM? If you do or looking at opening one could you PM me details, somewhat interested

[ShadowLight]

Yeah, combat-teleport just seems silly for an MMORPG. From mob dropping, to making farming "fwing double strafe, fwing double strafe repeat until overweight"

Are you able to disable it in combat? If so, do that + add fairly large CD should make it feel normal. Just read about the minibosses everywhere, do you have a server running ATM? If you do or looking at opening one could you PM me details, somewhat interested

It also favors those who bots. Perhaps a short range teleport (click on ground) with fairly high cd? That way you can use it in PvP as well.

I did a change on stalker's Snatch skill, check out the video from my first post, let me know what you think.

I'm about to open one and will be announcing it soon. One of my biggest server projects yet (you can see the changelog from my first post - that was actually a fraction of the changes).

[dualitydiscretion]

I know the tutorial sub-topic is already shelved at this point, but I have a couple of points that might be useful. These are coming from my recent experience of bringing 2 totally fresh people into the game and teaching them how to play.

1. Integrate actual combat very early in the tutorial.

In the old tutorial system (and even in the new Criatura academy stuff they implemented), combat was put off until waaay later in the game. As people have said, it's just walls of text over and over. In the end, this game is centered around combat, not reading npc scripts, so it would be much better to let people learn while experiencing the essence of the game.

For example, when a player logs in for the first time, they're taught only how to walk and click on NPCs. They (optimally) should already have a knife equipped. The immediate next lesson is to kill a poring. From there, they're taught the value of EXPs and item drops, and consequentially, how to open the item, skill, status, and equipment windows.

2. Required level-specific tutorials.

I honestly don't play a lot of online games aside from RO, but from my experience, I prefer to learn new things as I go along, rather than learn everything in one sitting. For example, refining weapons and enchanting cards do not hold value to me until I'm, like, lvl 30+, as a new player. I think in the original training grounds, refining was omitted entirely from the tutorials, so new players are completely clueless about it, even moreso about cards and many other stuff about the game.

The idea I have is that, maybe you can make a system where a player gets an automated mail when they reach a certain level. The mail instructs them to go somewhere to learn something new. If possible, integrate the navigation system so players who want to participate in the tutorial doesn't feel lost.

--

Anyway, I really love what you've developed so far. I'm all for the idea of immersive play, with more focus on partying and exploring, rather than just going to the middle of nowhere to kill mobs then fly back home. It's probably not the mainstream RO gamer's cup of tea, but I'd love to see what comes out of it.

[Mary Magdalene]

Yeah, combat-teleport just seems silly for an MMORPG. From mob dropping, to making farming "fwing double strafe, fwing double strafe repeat until overweight"

Are you able to disable it in combat? If so, do that + add fairly large CD should make it feel normal. Just read about the minibosses everywhere, do you have a server running ATM? If you do or looking at opening one could you PM me details, somewhat interested

Isn't it that there's already a source mod where you cannot teleport for x seconds when you're in combat with mobs or pvp? I think that's way better.

[annaquin]

teleport is quite tricky...

There is when you are on low rate server the sting map, when young mage, it's the only map you need to actually toy with fly wing to reach. It's on underground 2 and you need to travel using fly wing to avoid tarou , cramp and gargoyle.

The danger is real and this is what make the game funny, leveling fast on high risky map.

So fly wing should be allowed as it is , with its randomness...

Teleport skill however, should be changed :

Teleport lvl 1 -> jump forward 9 cell away, 1 sec CD
Teleport lvl 2 -> jump forward 21 cell away, 2 sec CD
Teleport lvl 3 -> jump forward 3x3, 21 cell away, 3 sec CD -> grant Warp lvl 1
Teleport lvl 4 -> jump forward 7x7, 21 cell away, 4 sec CD
Teleport lvl 5 -> follow line of sight teleporter with all  people in 11x11 , 5 sec CD -> MVP tracking, PVP teleport trackin, Emergency Call tracking

So a priest would become a far more strategical ally in MVP, PVE,PVP, BG,and GVG and changing location would reactive geomancy.
Of course some map, like emperium room or gvg barrier wouldn't allow this kind of skills to work , but spying and detecting an emergency call and seeing a guy flying you would make opportunities for a priest to be a critical threat.

[ShadowLight]

teleport is quite tricky...

There is when you are on low rate server the sting map, when young mage, it's the only map you need to actually toy with fly wing to reach. It's on underground 2 and you need to travel using fly wing to avoid tarou , cramp and gargoyle.

The danger is real and this is what make the game funny, leveling fast on high risky map.

So fly wing should be allowed as it is , with its randomness...

Teleport skill however, should be changed :

Teleport lvl 1 -> jump forward 9 cell away, 1 sec CD
Teleport lvl 2 -> jump forward 21 cell away, 2 sec CD
Teleport lvl 3 -> jump forward 3x3, 21 cell away, 3 sec CD -> grant Warp lvl 1
Teleport lvl 4 -> jump forward 7x7, 21 cell away, 4 sec CD
Teleport lvl 5 -> follow line of sight teleporter with all  people in 11x11 , 5 sec CD -> MVP tracking, PVP teleport trackin, Emergency Call tracking

So a priest would become a far more strategical ally in MVP, PVE,PVP, BG,and GVG and changing location would reactive geomancy.
Of course some map, like emperium room or gvg barrier wouldn't allow this kind of skills to work , but spying and detecting an emergency call and seeing a guy flying you would make opportunities for a priest to be a critical threat.

This is actually a very cool concept. I was actually planning to do changes somewhat similar to what you suggest while keeping the two level standard:

Level 1: Teleport randomly 9x9 cells around the user (with 8 seconds cooldown).
Level 2: Teleport to save points (same as previous level 2).

My main focus is to remove ALL skills that have use limitation on it (restriction on maps) and make it useful for BOTH PvE and PvP.