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Offline Reyl

Playing other servers
« on: Apr 16, 2008, 03:21 am »
    Hello everyone,

    I was hoping to gather some opinions from the RMS community about a few questions that have been brewing inside my head. I've been reading some of the discussion threads here pretty avidly, and the topic about GM privacy relates closely to this. Many of us have differing opinions on whether a GM should be allowed to play a legitimate character on their own server - there's the risk of corruption when a GM has a conflict of loyalties between server fairness and friendship/bribery, but at the same time, most people cannot realistically be expected to completely sacrifice themselves and their enjoyment of RO for the sake of running an RO server. But what about if they play on another server, while still maintaining their duties on their own server?

    Is it unethical for a staff member to go somewhere else and try out another server? Would it be okay to play competitively in WoE, hunt MVPs, and socialize with members of a different community? If you think this is unethical, why do you feel that way?

    If you think playing on another server is perfectly fine, then there is one more ethical concern I'd like to pose before you. Suppose you are playing on this other server, and as you grow accustomed to it, you see changes, events, mini-games, and other server features that work very effectively for this other server. Now, coming back to work on your own server as a staff member, is it unethical for you to use these ideas to improve your own server? Note that I don't mean stealing script code or custom sprites since those clearly cross the line for plagiarism; I only mean studying the concepts and implementing them on your own server in your own way. Just to clarify, I think this might be best described with a few examples:

    • For instance, if you see another server nerf Enchant Deadly Poison from 400% to 300% ATK, would it be okay for you to consider whether EDP is a major issue on your own server and (assuming your team is capable of making the edits) make the exact same change on your own?
    • What if you played a mini-game event on the other server and found it to be incredibly fun, then think to yourself, "if only it could also do ______"? You then start scripting a similar game from scratch, and make a vastly superior version of it on your own server. Is this fine?
    • You notice that this other server has a donation system that does not give overpowering items to players, but instead offers other services (for the sake of this example, let's say they give you a max level character). The population on the server likes the idea and agrees that it's not overpowering at all. Would it be okay to take this idea and apply it to your own server?
    • As an extreme example, suppose you read about MouRO's incredible level of customization and significant emphasis on party leveling. These features are a few points that make MouRO very unique and set it apart from other typical low-rates, but this also means that it attracts a fairly different audience of players as well. Or perhaps you see custom classes on another server (I think DarkRO has Jedi/Sith classes?) and love the idea of playing around with custom classes. Your team is also capable of making the changes to match, if not improve upon, those ideas. Is it acceptable to work on a project like that for your own server, even though it's based originally upon someone else's idea?

    So my main two questions here are:
    • Is it okay for GMs to play seriously on other RO servers?
    • Where do you draw the line between "following a good example" and "plagiarism"?

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Playing other servers
« on: Apr 16, 2008, 03:21 am »

Offline Pandora

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #1 on: Apr 16, 2008, 10:01 am »
That's a very interesting topic.

First about GM playing their own server. Well I play on my server so I think that gives you where I stand on that, but I'll say that it's not easy. It is very hard to appear fair (and appearing fair and being fair is not the same thing, obviously both are wished for). If you join a guild you are exposing yourself to accusation of favoritism. If you party with people you may make other players jealous. Players will treat you differently because you're gm, either hate you because you're the 'authority' or try to befriend you because of what you are and not who you are, both are bothersome obviously. If you punish someone you are friendly with and punish someone you are enemy with, even if it's the same punishment for the same crime, both will appear very differently to players. They are quick to draw the wrong conclusions, to blame bias or favoritism, etc. So I think a gm can play on their own server, but expect drama, expect that you'll have to put up with players bugging you, expect that you'll have to do self-sacrifice sometimes for the better good of the server.

Now regarding playing on other servers, I think that's fine in itself. Over there you're just another player, so you can't be accused of doing anything corrupted/unfair so in that regard there's no problem. I've had players come up to me and tell me they are GM on other servers. It weirded me out a little at first honestly, but if they were there to steal stuff I guess they wouldn't have told me who they were, plus they are from high rates and my server is low rate.

About your concern of "inspiration" and "plagiarism", now comes a tricky line to draw and everyone in this community may come to give their opinion but there is no real 1 good answer, I certainly don't claim to have "the" answer either, but I can give my opinion on the matter.

Well, the first thing one could do is talk to the admin/gm of the server they play on. Explaining who they are and from what server, and asking nicely if they could inspire themselves from X idea and make something of their own with X details. If worded maturely and precisely, chances are the admin of the other server might agree. If it's something they care deeply about and very specific and original they might not however. Example: I have a mining system on my server. I did not copy this from any server, I wrote the script myself. If someone comes and ask me if they can inspire themselves from it and make their own mining, I'll tell them to go right ahead. I didn't invent the concept of mining, there's mining in many other games outside of RO. But if they wanna copy a really deep unique storyline quest, then I'll be more reluctant, but asking is still always better than just stealing, worse you can get is a No.

About copyright, I think I read somewhere (on eA actually I think) that you have to modify over 30% of something to call it your own. You have to make enough modifications so that it becomes something new, and not just something copied. That's probably kinda hard to rate however.

About EDP from 400 to 300, I'd say that's fine personally.
Mini-game is more icky, if it's very unique I'd say its NOT ok to copy without permission.
Custom class such as Jedi/Sith, I'd say it's ok to make new classes of Jedi/Sith, but you'd have to make your own sprites (unless one is publicly released) and give them skills/bonus stat that you thought of yourself, not go on the server and copy every single aspect of their custom class.

Personally, I'd say that yes, I did inspire myself from other servers I've seen before. But I wouldn't say that I'm guilty of plagiarism. On the top of my head things that were taken elsewhere...
- Fishing system I had seen on other server I played before (xero), but I created my own script, with different types of fish and my own quest and such.
- Rewarding donation with chance items I had seen on a previous server (ultimaro), but it's not something that I would deem "copyrightable".
- "4 knights" quest, something I read about on Rune, made for Usako's server, I didn't go read up on what they actually made with the concept, I'm writing my own stuff from that general idea (it only mentioned something about monster with knights in their name).
- "Minesweeper event", (from xero too), it's an event they hosted often, where novices have to avoid marine sphere, I'm tweaking the idea and I'm making my own script for it.

I'll admit I surf other RO server's page on regular basis, I read on what other servers offer, their custom feature, I look at their donation rewards and gears they have, I check what makes them unique and try to ponder if I could derive any interesting ideas for my server from what I see. I do that with other games too actually, I've seen an interesting feature in another MMO and I'm in the process of adding it to my ro server in my own way. I think inspiration is a fine thing, very few people have truely original ideas, most are derived from other things, transformed, improved, evolved but still not completely new.

The problem is that some people are just thief, unwilling to do their own work, just taking and copying. How many topic have we seen on this forum regarding website theft? At least 5 that I can recall, some noob had just stolen a whole website and changed the name of the server, talk about lazy.. >_< I think most people can draw the line over what is stealing and what isn't, and if not we usually hear about it in drama threads here XD
heRO is a great friendly, sociable yet WoE active, unique and fun server of 5/5/3 rates with 400+ players, give it a try!



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Offline Brainstorm

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #2 on: Apr 16, 2008, 01:19 pm »
Quote
About copyright, I think I read somewhere (on eA actually I think) that you have to modify over 30% of something to call it your own. You have to make enough modifications so that it becomes something new, and not just something copied. That's probably kinda hard to rate however.
That is a complete lie. Even if you modify 99% of ragnarok client but still have a monster called "poring" it is copyright infrigement. Again who copyright scripts here besides me? I dont think many people do.

In the topic.
First, im a strong believer that the OWNER of a server must be it's more dedicated and devoted player (no need to be a grinding fanatic and play 24/7, but be active, always), if the main admin wont have fun on his own server, who will?
If you seek fun somewhere else, just close your server and invite your players to play on the other server too, trust me, you will be doing a greater good to everyone.
Second, ideas sometimes come out from different sources, so you cant really claim the idea from your own, also, by exposing yourself on the internet you are subject of ideas robbery, just like how you put new sprites into your GRF without protecting it against extraction from common tools.
Regardless of that, i not against using ideas from other servers, as long as you add the proper CREDITS from where you took it from to your players.


Offline Guest

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #3 on: Apr 16, 2008, 06:52 pm »
lets see.... ima make this short and quick as usual =P

imo if the GM/owner can keep track of their server... continue to spend a good amount of time on it, and continue to keep it up and running with as few bugs as possible then i'd see nothing wrong with them going to play some where else so long as the continue to look after the server their GM's on


EDIT: oh ya bout the second question..... i dun really have thoughts on it

Offline Reyl

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #4 on: Apr 16, 2008, 06:59 pm »
Thanks for the responses so far!

Pandora, can you clarify a bit more on why you make the distinctions for these examples?

Quote
About EDP from 400 to 300, I'd say that's fine personally.
Mini-game is more icky, if it's very unique I'd say its NOT ok to copy without permission.
Custom class such as Jedi/Sith, I'd say it's ok to make new classes of Jedi/Sith, but you'd have to make your own sprites (unless one is publicly released) and give them skills/bonus stat that you thought of yourself, not go on the server and copy every single aspect of their custom class.

Why is it fine to make exactly the same line-by-line change to EDP but not acceptable to mimic a unique mini-game as closely as possible? Is it because modifications to skills that are common to most RO servers does not quite qualify as intellectual property in your opinion, whereas a unique mini-game is something devised beyond the usual scope of RO by the staff of the other server? If that's the case, then what about changing the stat growth and level progression of Homunculi, in addition to adding in custom storyline quests to obtain them? Or adding new skills and boosting the stats on plants from Bio Cannibalize? Do these fall under the same umbrella as EDP (skill modification), even though they are fundamentally much more unique and specific changes?

Also, your mining comment also brings up a new question (sorry!!! I'm just full of them today). Suppose that you came up with this original idea without any outside influence, and that if somebody asked you if they could work off their inspiration from your work, you would actually say no - it was your idea, your effort, and you don't want it to be stolen. I know this is not the case, but hypothetically let's say that it is. Incidentally, on my own server (I work together with Tira on EssenceRO), we came up with a mining concept as well, and it happens to be very similar to your own system. We didn't draw any inspiration from you or steal your ideas, but effectively, we both have the same custom mini-game. Is this fine? Is ignorance an acceptable excuse for coming up with the same results?

If so, I think that brings in a whole new level of complication to this issue XD. How then can you distinguish whether someone stole your idea or came up with it independently? This is of course assuming that the custom idea is not obviously implemented in exactly the same way, but the general flow and purpose still feels reminiscent of your own work. This could even apply to a really deep and unique storyline quest - change the character names, sprites, and locations, then add in a few variations in plot twists. Sure, it is very similar in some respects (explosion in the Kafra facility... a girl with amnesia...) but it's still not the same story. And they're claiming that they came up with it on their own because their players have always been demanding great storylines to go with their RO gameplay. How do you know if they're lying? Where is the proof?

And hmm. What about suggestions made by players? Players aren't always tied to any specific server, and often tend to wander about freely until they find a server that they feel like they can call home. From there, it's actually pretty common for them to post suggestions like "Oh, I was playing on another server and they had blahblahblah, can we add that here too?" Depending on how closely that player remembers the concept, you might end up implementing the idea in almost exactly the same way. Is that also fine, or should administrators reject all ideas from their players for fear of plagiarism?

Brainstorm's solution is easier of course - any time that you knowingly take inspiration from someone else's idea, just make a note of it in the Changelog (or whatever you use to publicly notify players of new content). Still, I'm assuming that this is taken without permission; it's just that you had the decency to note where the idea originally came from. Since the idea generally isn't copyrighted in the first place, does the original owner have any justification to complain or start up a drama thread on these RMS forums?

Oh, and hi Brainstorm XD. I remember asking about Perfect Dodge animation on eAthena support forums about 7 or 8 months ago, and someone with the same username was the only person to respond to me on it. I still haven't gotten it to work, but thanks for trying to help me out back then XD.

Offline Skotlex

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #5 on: Apr 17, 2008, 04:02 am »
Uhm, you can't really do anything about it. I mean, the whole "taking" of ideas. If you recall, humanity has progressed to where it is now by SHARING ideas and building upon them, not by being zealous and trying to keep everything a secret (and then suing everyone who dares try differently).

Yes, it probably "sucks" if you come up with a great invention and the next week the whole world has them because everyone copied it over. Credits should be given were credits are due, but this cannot really be enforced without the law,and hell the RO scene is ran mostly by kids and calling the law will probably just bring in more problems.

If you want to go ethical, I'd say it is ethical to inform others that you like their idea and want to use something similar, it is also ethical to let others implement your ideas, and improve them if possible. It is NOT ethical to be greedy, or the try to defame others on the grounds that they are treacherous stealing bastards for taking your ideas without your permission.

Ideas are inspiration, and this should be allowed to freely flow within the masses. If you are so zealous of your work that you can't even conceive others being inspired by it and doing something similar, then you need a reality check, originality has long ago died, none of our ideas are all really original, we are all inspired from each other and our previously acquired knowledge.

Point made, I better get back to work...

(RMS reviews)

Offline Pandora

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #6 on: Apr 17, 2008, 08:11 am »
I guess the EDP thing is fine because the skill originally is from Gravity, so it doesn't really belong to the other server to begin with, you're just changing a small setting. But the unique mini-game they would have invented themselves. It's really a case by case basis imo, and I still stand that it's best to ask first.

If you came up with your own mining system, it would still have some difference between them, as oppose to if it's really 100% the same then I would assumed you copied it. Like you said, it's complicated to judge.

If I saw that you totally copied the idea, what could I really do about it? It's not like I deposited a legal copyright on my script, so I could first try to negotiate peacefully, then if that failed, I could either let it go or start a server vs server war XD which we've seen on these boards before.

The nice thing about scripts is that they can't really be stolen, they can be copied if the other server has scripting capabilities, but it's not like any noob can just take them, sprites on the other hand have that problem, unless you encode your grf.

Regarding player suggestion, well if the player mentions its from another server, right there you know its not really his to give as an idea. You could however get more information, which server? is it still alive? And from there take a decision, perhaps you can take the general concept and improve on it and change it enough to make it unique to your server, to me that classifies as inspiration. If you're Zealous you could also try to find out where the other server got it from. Lots of servers don't script themselves, they just take scripts from eAthena release, which are free to use.

And yes, I think sometimes it's worth complaining about even if not legally copyrighted, if someone blatantly steals something that is yours it's not acceptable, legal or not.

Regarding giving credit, well it doesn't really make up for stealing if you didn't ask in the first place. "Oh I stole this person's entire website without telling them, but it's ok cuz I got a very small credit notice in this remote corner that no one looks at"... No, just No. It's one notch better than stealing + taking credit for someone's work, but it's still unacceptable.

I agree with most of what you said Skotlex, but it really brings back the original question; where do you draw the line between "inspiration" and "plagiarism"?
heRO is a great friendly, sociable yet WoE active, unique and fun server of 5/5/3 rates with 400+ players, give it a try!



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Offline Ayuneko

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #7 on: Apr 17, 2008, 07:08 pm »
GMs like players sometimes migh be bored with their own servers sooo...
I think it isn't unfair for their "home" server in any way. Just a really bad advertisement (if even a GM won't play there...).

Offline Anti-Static Foam Cleaner

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #8 on: Apr 20, 2008, 01:17 pm »
(Ethics don't exist and are a purely subjective concept both on individual and social level)

I will second Brainstorm on the other servers comment - isn't the whole point of making a private RO server so it's just exca-aaa-ctly like you(the server owner) want it? Wouldn't the inability to play on it later go against the whole idea?

The line between "following the good example" and "plagiarism" lies in honesty. If you take someone's ready script, give them credit or at least don't pretend you made it. If you make your own version ground up, at least don't advertise it around as new and innovative.

Offline Reyl

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #9 on: Apr 20, 2008, 03:24 pm »
Ah okay. I can understand the point on making the RO server something that you would want to play, and how contradictory it would seem to turn around and play somewhere else. However, the Catch-22 for this is that there are always players who are set in their ways believing that a legitimately playing GM is inevitably going to abuse their powers for their own selfish needs. It's an honor system, and players don't even have a bargaining chip to use against that other than leaving the server and telling all of their friends and RMS that the server is corrupt. If you have the charisma to gain the complete trust of all your players, then it's possible to offset this, but maintaining trust for 500+ different people while fighting many of them in an event as emotional and ego-feeding as WoE is a very challenging endeavor.

But sometimes, it's not even as serious as this concern about such blatant corruption. There are still many who believe that if you want to work on a server, you should sacrifice all other in-game attachments for the greater good. Playing on the server in a guild is going to create a conflict of interests for you, where you will frequently have to choose between favoring your friends or (rightfully) staying objective and thinking about what's best for the server as a whole. The hardest problem GMs face with this decision is when those two options *appear* to be the same - your friends may be able to convince you more easily than that guy who killed you in PvP with the same skill over and over, laughing about it the whole time. You don't believe you're making a biased choice, but in the eyes of the rest of the server, you might actually be doing something that caters only to a special interest group.

I'll be honest - before I began working as a staff member, I held pretty strictly to the belief that if you want to work on a server, you shouldn't be playing seriously on it. It's just too easy to be accused of bias, and perhaps rightfully so, because it is easy to slip into a biased frame of mind. Since then though, I've realized that actually carrying out this belief as a staff member makes RO feel more like work than recreation. I don't have any personal stake in the balance decisions being made, and I don't particularly care which guild takes that castle today. Although it is a much more objective position to be in, in turn it makes it difficult to draw enjoyment from, especially if you are constantly barraged with demands from your players based on expectations from your past performance. Still, it's not something that I feel detached enough to quit, since I do want this project to succeed. It's just that this position is destroying the tangible interest that I originally found in RO, which was mainly centered around leading a guild that excelled in WoE due to player dedication, strategic planning, and high guild morale and loyalty.

In any case, I'm not sure where I stand on these issues yet, which is why I've posed the question here XD. It's not that I'm sick of my own server, since I'd love to play on it and finally experience the balanced gameplay I've been lobbying for on other servers for years. However, because of my beliefs, I don't feel confident that playing on the same server at a competitive level is justifiably safe. The best alternative I can think of is to try a different server to rekindle my interest in RO while feeling unfettered by the confines of my GM label (along with its potential for accusations of bias and skewed popularity). In the process, I might even learn a few things that I never noticed before on my own server ("oh wow, I never thought of buffing Gunslingers to be playable as more than just a novelty class"). I wasn't planning to advertise for either server though - that's not really appropriate on either end and it begins to break away from the whole point of this exercise: to play on another server and treat it like a completely different game.

And even if ethics are purely subjective, there are certain issues that the common unconscious is likely to agree upon. Better to get a feel for what other people think first before actually doing it and realizing later that it was actually a terrible idea XD. It might not even matter what my intentions are though; if the general impression is that even the GMs won't play on their own server, then that could be equally problematic compared to being accused of corruption for playing on their own server.
« Last Edit: Apr 20, 2008, 03:29 pm by Reyl »

Dudemeister

  • Guest
Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #10 on: Apr 20, 2008, 04:17 pm »
Holy CRAP.....Tl;dr.

Offline Anti-Static Foam Cleaner

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #11 on: Apr 21, 2008, 01:17 am »
However, the Catch-22 for this is that there are always players who are set in their ways believing that a legitimately playing GM is inevitably going to abuse their powers for their own selfish needs.

You can't satisfy everyone no matter what you do, and RO servers are no exception. Like I said in another thread, if a GM wanted to screw around he has a hundred ways of doing it without even getting in game. There must be some degree of trust between players and the GMs or the whole thing can't work, just like you trust the dentist he'll do his job and not take the drill and stab you in the eye.

And again, there is no problem if the players don't know which characters are GM's.

Offline Tira

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #12 on: Apr 21, 2008, 04:57 pm »
Why shouldn't players know which characters are GMs?

I take a somewhat different standpoint on this, since I DO play on my own server reasonably actively. But all this cloak-and-dagger "anonymous" legit GM s*** just leads to speculation and finger pointing, and is a complete waste of time, space and effort. If GMs attempt to mask who their "legit" characters are, then it implies they do have something to hide - this is surely application of basic common sense (although evidently not in many cases). Why not be up front about it in the first place?

There's a big difference between a GM "screwing around" and just failing to maintain an objective perspective on server-related issues due to their own vested interests.
essenceRO | bytira.net
Quote
(04:39) J: theres a group of people that think you do webcam shows for reviews donations etc
they are then going to spread that rumor, and they also claim to have photographic evidence, as well as serveral player tesimonies as to you doing this
one of their goals is to have you, well i don't really know what they want to have happen to you but i can't imagen its all that nice
(04:39) Tamsin: HAHAHAHAHA
(04:40) Tamsin: OH GOD BRILLIANT
(04:40) Tamsin: Hang on I gotta paste this in my server IRC

Quote
Cam says:
I have to do something to gain anime success so that people can hate me too.

Offline Anti-Static Foam Cleaner

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #13 on: Apr 22, 2008, 03:17 am »
Why shouldn't players know which characters are GMs?

Because then players will treat the GM's character as a GM, not as a player and he will have to answer to one hundred stupid questions per minute.

Offline Pandora

Re: Playing other servers
« Reply #14 on: Apr 22, 2008, 08:44 am »
Both side have pros and cons.

If you're anonymous people wont treat you differently, you get to see their real colors, and you don't get bothered by a gazilion pms, but people will keep wondering who the gm's legit is, and sometimes even "accuse" the wrong person. You get some peace and quiet if you're anonymous, it doesn't mean you have anything to hide, but I understand how it can be perceived that way.

On the other hand, being upfront and honest about it is usually appreciated by players, although people are quick to speculate. Like if you beat them in pvp they'll think you're @itemed instead of admitting that you beat them fair and square, if your guild woes that brings a whole new level of problems. Also, people will have no respect for your playing time, PMing you all the time and expecting you to stop whatever you're doing to come attend their needs. Of course GMing involves certain sacrifice, but sometimes you just need a break or can't leave what you're doing. People will treat you differently, some will be total "suck ups" trying to befriend you because you're in a "power position", others will systematically hate you for being the "authority".

I respect both sides, personally I play my own server and players know who I am, but sometimes I wish I was still anonymous. At least, either way, by playing your own server you stay close to the players, you can see what improvement are needed on your server, you can feel the beat of the server.
« Last Edit: Apr 22, 2008, 08:46 am by Pandora »
heRO is a great friendly, sociable yet WoE active, unique and fun server of 5/5/3 rates with 400+ players, give it a try!



Click here to find out more about heRO!