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Author Topic: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?  (Read 5395 times)

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Offline kanemi

Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« on: Jun 09, 2017, 09:59 PM »
I'm basically paying this guy to do everything related to coding. I know I will have to understand a tiny bit of the stuff he does already, just wondering to what extent I should go learning this stuff. I'm not too keen on learning to code, though. I want to be able to take control of all aspects of the server without going into learning any syntax at all, if that's possible.

Also, if it is possible, what should I learn, and how? The guy tried explaining it to me, but really superficially.
« Last Edit: Jun 09, 2017, 11:14 PM by kanemi »

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Offline yC

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 09, 2017, 11:49 PM »
I want to be able to take control of all aspects of the server without going into learning any syntax at all

I'd say no, some people may disagree but that is how I see it.  Ask yourself first, are you able to run the server alone.  Sure, pressing a few button to get the server online / offline is easy enough.  That is until someone finds a bug or abuse a bug then you will need to know how approach the problem.

Why do you want to pay someone to code you a server?  If you don't know anything about it and don't want to learn, might as well not do it.

Offline kanemi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 10, 2017, 12:08 AM »
It seems like too large a task to learn coding that I have no other use for than this server, but I do have a lot of ideas as far as game mechanics goes. I think I can improve on the experience of other pservers (which, I know, is a bold claim, but assume it's true for the sake of discussion xD). And can I not just pay my guy to give me the code for the bug fix, tell me where to put it, and get another dude to confirm that the code is not gonna mess things up? That, or just trust this coder that has been good to me so far that things will not blow up in my face?

And if not, how much will I have to learn and what exactly am I learning?
« Last Edit: Jun 10, 2017, 12:15 AM by kanemi »

Offline Yuzo

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #3 on: Jun 10, 2017, 12:18 PM »
bad idea. it's this guy who runs ur server not u.

Offline SukiChii

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #4 on: Jun 12, 2017, 05:41 PM »
You're better off getting hired at a server rather than running it.
"well at least higher ups should at least reward players with minor stuff for reporting bugs if i have to go to forums"
-RO player

Offline Bue

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #5 on: Jun 12, 2017, 08:51 PM »
How much are you paying your developer? where is he from? how old is he?

Offline kanemi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #6 on: Jun 12, 2017, 10:52 PM »
You're better off getting hired at a server rather than running it.

I doubt I could find a good one who will take all of my suggestions. Anyway this is how it works everywhere else. I guess an RO server is quite different but typically if you want good games you don't go around asking coders to design them, they just do the coding. 'Course, I am not of that caliber myself, but I do have a bit of insight that perhaps most others would have missed.

How much are you paying your developer? where is he from? how old is he?

Not a whole lot. I've probably paid a couple hundred by now, estimating it'll cost me a few hundred more. The money isn't the biggest of issues though, I've wasted this much money on worse ideas before.

My guy is Happy from the Hercules forums. He's from the Philippines. Not sure about his age, but he is a grown adult judging by his pics. 

Offline Bue

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 13, 2017, 01:41 AM »
What exactly do you know how to do and what are you contracting out?

I don't want to make too many assumptions, but generally speaking, I agree with yC.

Oh yeah, but if you have a budget on the level of a Saudi Prince, then PM me.

Offline Yuzo

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #8 on: Jun 13, 2017, 05:42 AM »
do you know how to read scripts or src? what happens when he starts putting backdoors in?

Offline kanemi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #9 on: Jun 13, 2017, 05:47 PM »
What exactly do you know how to do and what are you contracting out?

Nothing much. If there's a script for it with instructions (e.g. bots) I know how to do that. The guy is teaching me how basically to use github, codeanywhere, bitbucket, stuff like that. I guess that's the button pressing that yC mentioned. I'm contracting out source edits and simple modifications like adding NPCs and making sure they work right. He's doing all the customizations basically.

Quote
Oh yeah, but if you have a budget on the level of a Saudi Prince, then PM me.

Haha. Not really. I'm just willing to go into the negative for a couple months if that's what it takes. Willing to fail and so on. But I'm not a huge gambler either so that's about it.

do you know how to read scripts or src? what happens when he starts putting backdoors in?

No, I don't. No way I'm gonna be able to read src. And I just pay him to keep things functional. I guess trusting someone is easy, but really his reputation and business are on the line.

But from what your telling me there really is no way to prevent a hostile takeover except by doing everything myself. Or maybe there is someone you can recommend to help me out, but the guy's been good to me so far. Willing to work whenever I need it.

Offline mtil

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #10 on: Jun 13, 2017, 11:58 PM »
Do you have linux server admin experience/knowledge? Will you be fully paying for/funding your project?

If you can't admin the server but you are funding it, I'd recommend partnering with someone you trust who has the server administration / coding skills and give them control (but it's hard to find someone trustworthy).

If you CAN administer your server well then you might be able to get someone else to do the coding but retain full control. There are some good practices to help with this, ex: use vagrant or something like that so that you can test out all the changes either locally or deploy to a test cluster (also make sure you review the changes). It lets to validate in a separate environment than where your actual server is running.

And finally, if you are not paying the server bills then I wouldn't really consider you an owner. Just a guy with some ideas that wants to make a particular kind of server.

Offline kanemi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #11 on: Jun 14, 2017, 07:34 PM »
Yes, I am paying the server bills, and will take control of everything before it goes live, however I am still paying him to code for me and even sharing my profits to an extent with him. We talked about a test server already and he agreed to do that for me.

Offline Zinnia

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #12 on: Jun 17, 2017, 02:25 AM »
In real life organisations, a product owner isn't necessarily somebody who codes.

If you trust that person and that person recognizes you as somebody who has knowledge in areas he doesn't, then you own it. (Including monetization plan / accounting)

Most RO servers since forever have been administrated by developers, but that's wrong. Developers aren't trained to think "business" or "priority". They aren't project managers. Everyone their expertise.

Offline Inochi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #13 on: Jun 17, 2017, 05:28 AM »
are you from the Philippines by any chance?

Offline kanemi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #14 on: Jun 17, 2017, 07:38 AM »
are you from the Philippines by any chance?

I'm from Canada.

Offline Kris

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #15 on: Jun 17, 2017, 08:00 PM »
I want to be able to take control of all aspects of the server without going into learning any syntax at all, if that's possible.

That's like robbing a bank which has no money in it  /??
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Offline Blinzer

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #16 on: Jun 17, 2017, 09:08 PM »
That's like robbing a bank which has no money in it  /??

i'd say that's closer to wanting to travel to other galaxies without the appropriate space ship

Offline kanemi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #17 on: Jun 18, 2017, 02:13 AM »
That's like robbing a bank which has no money in it  /??

Not like I haven't tried that either.  /swt

But I meant "take control" more as in "give dictation".

Offline Kris

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #18 on: Jun 18, 2017, 06:04 PM »
Not like I haven't tried that either.  /swt

But I meant "take control" more as in "give dictation".

How could you take control for something you know nothing about
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Offline kanemi

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #19 on: Jun 18, 2017, 06:33 PM »
By having a ledger. Easy. I know this sounds like rocket science to you but it's really not. Like what Zinnia said. I like that and think we should leave it there.

Offline misterj

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #20 on: Jun 18, 2017, 10:14 PM »
if youre rich and your server is fun to play on, thats ok with me!

Offline Kris

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #21 on: Jun 19, 2017, 12:42 AM »
By having a ledger. Easy. I know this sounds like rocket science to you but it's really not. Like what Zinnia said. I like that and think we should leave it there.

To put things into perspective, Donald Trump became the president of America without knowing the first thing about politics. Likewise, you can definitely start your own server without knowing the first thing about coding or anything RO related. This does not change the reality that both, America & your server will be destroyed. Cheers!
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Offline Potatoes

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #22 on: Jun 19, 2017, 02:02 AM »
I'll have to agree with yC as well, there are too many issues with what you plan on doing. You may have good intentions, but that's not good enough.

Also let's not kid ourselves here, and sorry if you find this harsh, but your developper is fully aware you're incompetent (and that is how he sees it no matter how nice he may seem). You're not in control of anything here. Scripting is the easy part and it's pretty much a requirement to know how to script as a server admin.

How about the rest? The source is one thing, but more importantly, do you know how to manage your VPS/dedicated server? What if your server crashes?

Or I don't know, what about your SQL capabilities:
- What if your website's SQL account privileges aren't set properly and someone deletes your whole DB through SQL injection? How are you going to handle that?
- What if an ex-admin uses his database and decides to log into known accounts to mess up players? Will you be able to do anything to resolve that?
- A more common case, what if someone asks you to return his item because he sold it to an NPC?

Or on the script side:
- What if someone reports a buggy NPC?
- What if an NPC is exploitable and requires immediate fixing?
- What if... a planned event you wanted to run on your own has an issue? "Sorry guys, I can't... find the problem, we'll try that again in a few hours when I talk to my guy!"

I don't know the extent of your knowledge, but if you're asking if it's feasible to pay someone to code your whole server, I assume you don't know too much about managing a server to begin with. You don't need to know everything of course, but you need to be willing to learn how to script and how to modify your sources.

Offline Bue

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #23 on: Jun 19, 2017, 02:03 AM »
To put things into perspective, Donald Trump became the president of America without knowing the first thing about politics. Likewise, you can definitely start your own server without knowing the first thing about coding or anything RO related. This does not change the reality that both, America & your server will be destroyed. Cheers!

Go back to the first page and read what Zinnia said.
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2017, 02:42 AM by Bue »

Offline Kris

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #24 on: Jun 19, 2017, 02:34 AM »
Go back to the first page and read what Zinnia said.

You need to go back and re-read what Zinnia said about trust. Zinnia has colossal experience in this particular field, thanks to Hall Of Shame inductee, class of 2015 - Cookie
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Offline Bue

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #25 on: Jun 19, 2017, 02:51 AM »
You need to go back and re-read what Zinnia said about trust. Zinnia has colossal experience in this particular field, thanks to Hall Of Shame inductee, class of 2015 - Cookie

He did not mention anything about trust, perhaps you read inbetween the lines.

Maybe you just cannot wrap your head around the idea of starting a server in analog to starting a business?

Offline Kris

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #26 on: Jun 19, 2017, 03:03 AM »
He did not mention anything about trust, perhaps you read inbetween the lines.




If you trust that person and that person recognizes you as somebody who has knowledge in areas he doesn't, then you own it. (Including monetization plan / accounting)
2k17 Return

Offline Bue

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #27 on: Jun 19, 2017, 03:45 AM »



If you trust that person and that person recognizes you as somebody who has knowledge in areas he doesn't, then you own it. (Including monetization plan / accounting)

I stand corrected.

Though, this does not change the question. It is feasible for to Kanemi talk to someone (a consultant) to work out the specification of the server, contract a developer to implement the specification for deliverables (repositories), and perform the system administration duties to setup and manage the server himself.

The argument thus far is that black boxing the implementation is a risky idea since you have to contract that work out again such as sending a core dump the original contracted developer, but this does not exactly mean the enterprise would fail nor is it impossible to retain control since development and administration are two different jobs. FYI, mtil already mention this. And with Zinnia post, you can see how the work can be further delegated if you're the owner.

Maybe I am missing something from your perspective that I am not seeing?
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2017, 03:58 AM by Bue »

Offline rakuzas

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #28 on: Jun 19, 2017, 03:59 AM »
I'm basically paying this guy to do everything related to coding. I know I will have to understand a tiny bit of the stuff he does already, just wondering to what extent I should go learning this stuff. I'm not too keen on learning to code, though. I want to be able to take control of all aspects of the server without going into learning any syntax at all, if that's possible.

Also, if it is possible, what should I learn, and how? The guy tried explaining it to me, but really superficially.

I'm not too good to.. But here is some of my advise btw..

Code: [Select]
[b]I'm basically paying this guy to do everything related to coding.[/b]Do you really TRUST this guy? Did he your friend? Because too many scammer here.. Ask money 1st then disappear without trace.

Code: [Select]
I know I will have to understand a tiny bit of the stuff he does already, just wondering to what extent I should go learning this stuff. I'm not too keen on learning to code, though.I think you better learn something and not depends on him too much.. At least if he sick or unavailable, you can do the job.

Code: [Select]
I want to be able to take control of all aspects of the server without going into learning any syntax at all, if that's possible. It is possible.. But if that guy maybe your partner.. (You give funding and he do all the job)

Code: [Select]
Also, if it is possible, what should I learn, and how? The guy tried explaining it to me, but really superficially.You may learn from the forum which your emulator is.. rAthena or Herc or etc.. You may start with learn how to reading scripts.. Its easy if the scripts are not God Like level or Pro (which always use array etc)..

As other said, maybe you're better joining other server rather than opening your own server if you dont have knowledge about opening the server unless you're rich enough to hired permanent scripter to do the job..

And good luck..  /no1

PS : Some of the "dead" server owner think they can rich by opening the server.. And usually the server runs less than 3 months and then closed due no donation and no money to paid the server rent..

Offline Kris

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #29 on: Jun 19, 2017, 04:10 AM »

Though, this does not change the question. It is feasible for to Kanemi talk to someone (a consultant) to work out the specification of the server, contract a developer to implement the specification for deliverables (repositories), and perform the system administration duties to setup and manage the server himself.

The argument thus far is that black boxing the implementation is a risky idea since you have to contract that work out again such as sending a core dump the original contracted developer, but this does not exactly mean the enterprise would fail nor is it impossible to retain control since development and administration are two different jobs. FYI, mtil already mention this. And with Zinnia post, you can see how the work can be further delegated if you're the owner.

Maybe I am missing something from your perspective that I am not seeing?

After reading this post I've come to the conclusion that it's not you who is missing anything. It's me who's missing something. So whatever it is that you're smoking, pass that s*** here.
2k17 Return

Offline Bue

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #30 on: Jun 19, 2017, 06:19 PM »
After reading this post I've come to the conclusion that it's not you who is missing anything. It's me who's missing something. So whatever it is that you're smoking, pass that s*** here.

You are thinking Yuzo.  /heh

Offline MetallicMonkey

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #31 on: Jun 19, 2017, 09:08 PM »
Quote
I'm basically paying this guy to do everything related to coding.

Cool. You're the CEO :D!

Quote
I know I will have to understand a tiny bit of the stuff he does already, just wondering to what extent I should go learning this stuff.

I mean, if he's your slave, you don't need to understand what your slave is doing as long as he gets the work done and is loyal. /heh

Quote
I'm not too keen on learning to code, though.

Of course not, don't do your own slaves work. /heh

Quote
I want to be able to take control of all aspects of the server without going into learning any syntax at all, if that's possible.

Make sure you trust him. The only thing that may not be ideal is that bugs and changes will have to be made by him. Another layer of communication means it'll take a little longer depending on the task.

Quote
Also, if it is possible, what should I learn, and how?

Ask him. Generally speaking, if you want to want to control all the aspects of the server, maybe it'll be good to at least know how to script. That way, you can control story lines in quests, shop prices, etc. Leave all the coding to him. Disclaimer: I haven't released any servers myself (yet), but I have done some scripting in RO and I'm a developer.

Edit: When I say "Ask him", I mean you should realize which parts of the project you are most likely to change and ask him where it is in the code. For example, if there's a skill that you'd like to change, certain things like damage multipliers are easy to change because they're just one parameter. If you pick out these parameters, you may feel more comfortable with the server and probably save some money.

Quote
The guy tried explaining it to me, but really superficially.

Good! Try to understand it superficially. That's what some project managers do anyway.

NOTE: I am kidding about your developer being your slave. He's more like your queen in a chess match. /heh
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2017, 09:21 PM by MetallicMonkey »

Offline Yuzo

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #32 on: Jun 20, 2017, 10:08 AM »
You are thinking Yuzo.  /heh
well it is a past time of mine to light up then come read RMS forums

Offline Terpsichore

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #33 on: Jun 21, 2017, 01:50 AM »
Even if you have plenty of cash to toss around, things won't go smoothly if you don't have a basic understanding of how everything works.

Let's say you get this wild idea and rush to hire somebody to implement it. Can you communicate it properly? Is it plausible? Do you know the technical limitations? How long will it take and is it worth the money and time? Can you test it all by yourself once it's done, find flaws and forward them back to the developer? Can you merge the changes and additions or will you trust this developer with your source code and other files? Can you do small cosmetical changes and corrections yourself, so you don't have to spend even more time and money on something you could do alone in a couple of minutes if you had some very basic knowledge?

Even if you get past this phase, there's more to consider. Are you actually involved with the server's life yourself, do you observe how things progress, how mechanics work, what's broken, what players complain about, etc? Assuming you do, the developer for hire most likely won't know much about your server so it's up to you to figure out the necessary balancing for all the changes and additions. If you aren't closely involved with such things, then you need someone who is.

If you want to have full control over everything, those are some of the things you need to understand, because if you don't, you'll only end up stressing your staff plus developer, wasting money and everything will be all over the place, without much getting done.

Unless you decide to commit enough of your time and dedication to this ordeal, you're better off hiring somebody capable to work as the "real admin", while you do community management and other stuff at the back.

Offline Zinnia

Re: Paying someone to code my server, feasible?
« Reply #34 on: Jun 28, 2017, 12:00 PM »
Basically you need to know what you're doing as a project manager. That requires a wide area of skills, from:

- knowing who to recruit and know how to empower them
- understand part of the job of everyone and know how to allocate resources
- listen to your customers (players) and your dev(s) to find the best way to implement what your customers are asking for
- take decisions
- take responsibility for all the mistakes your team might do
- be passionate and dedicated yourself

Your dev team/person might still challenge you every now and then but that's fine.

A good way to earn the respect from your coworker(s) is to do everything they are not capable of doing or they don't like to do. Adapt your management system to your challenges.