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Author Topic: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.  (Read 27255 times)

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Offline Sarin

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #30 on: Apr 05, 2009, 05:10 PM »
That is interesting question...WoE SE would have to be greatly modified. They are made for big guilds of trans classes, and server will have neither.

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Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #31 on: Apr 05, 2009, 05:35 PM »
Wools+tidals. I wouldn't include these at all. This is meant for trans classes, to counter the massive DPS increase they get.
Valk Shield. Possible to get even without trans, but much harder. I'd reduce def to 0 so people will have to choose between elemental and physical protection.
Stone Buck. I actually haven't seen this combo much in action lately. People more prefer F.Beret as top headgear. And such server is gonna be alot about reductions cause of pot delay.
Meteor. Good luck getting enough to match +7 full plate. Possible, but I doubt there will be enough for quarter of server pop, making +7 full plate more used for swordsman classes.
Staff of piercing. Well well...this is yet again counter to people getting high mdef stuff and making special mdef sets. Is is possible to get stuff like Frigg's circlet? Then allow people to use it.
Lich wand: whew. That is indeed overpowered for nontrans chars.

I'll go through some advanced stuff myself when I have time and post my opinions. Your server concept seems...interesting, and might be worth checking out.
I don't want to throw items out unless necessary, but tidals+wool definitely can't remain as is, because as you say, defense capabilities would overpower offensive capabilities even with pot delay. That valk shield suggestions sounds good, I'll consider it. Stone Buckler is mostly for PvM/tanking, as it adds 5% reduction vs large and an easy 11 def on Knights with the set, but that might be necessary considering the later dungeons that need to be tanked. +7 Full Plate is still harder to get than +7 Meteor Plate if I'm not mistaken, as noone really drops slotted FP at an appreciable rate. I think I'll take 1 or 2 def from it, as the resists are amazing in WoE. Friggs will be available probably, I haven't considered it an issue. Do you think it's too good a headgear/set? Thank you for taking your time to help! Here is a list of all advanced equip (sans headgears).

Emsembles should be modified, specially the strong ones, of course, making them solo means a bigger SP needed (Like of both, 10 SP per sec?), and a nerf, like, Loki Emsemble should instead of removing the cast of spells, give a slow cast effect along with higher sp cost, only, so people can still survive the precast.

Oh, also, a question that might make me want to join your server, will the WoE SE Castles be open?!
Do you think Loki's Veil is the only spell that requires a nerf? I personally worry a bit about Drums of the Battlefield, too. I'll take those changes into consideration. WoE SE will be available as soon as the playerbase has grown sufficiently, possibly with modifications, as Sarin mentioned.

Offline Sarin

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #32 on: Apr 05, 2009, 05:48 PM »
Well, there has to be modifications. You know, guardians for WoE SE are made to be able to defend places against small guilds on their own. And that is with trans classes. Without them...guild that takes castle would be able to defend it against rest of server with ease.

Full plate, well that depends if your server will have warp to Geffenia, as Sign quest is one of longest out there. Makes me think about slotter, it might be an issue.
And I wouldn't underestimate people when it comes to MvPing, it still will be, while tough and needing big party, possible to kill Satan Morroc, Ifrit or Beelzebub...

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #33 on: Apr 05, 2009, 06:16 PM »
Well, there has to be modifications. You know, guardians for WoE SE are made to be able to defend places against small guilds on their own. And that is with trans classes. Without them...guild that takes castle would be able to defend it against rest of server with ease.

Full plate, well that depends if your server will have warp to Geffenia, as Sign quest is one of longest out there. Makes me think about slotter, it might be an issue.
And I wouldn't underestimate people when it comes to MvPing, it still will be, while tough and needing big party, possible to kill Satan Morroc, Ifrit or Beelzebub...
Good to know, I obviously wouldn't implement anything, much less something as big as WoE SE, without lots of testing (we have 2 servers, one for testing only). I've actually just been thinking about dungeon warps, and I feel that they, together with job changer/platinum skill NPC, don't belong on a low rate server (probably settling on 2/2/10). Having done the Sign quest twice, it certainly is really long, but more bearable when done with other people.
The slotter is an issue insofar as I plan to implement all those headgears in the database but not in-game currently, and many of them are as good as MVP headgears, sometimes even slotted ones, so making them just as difficult to obtain isn't an easy task. Altogether there are over 100 headgears that need to be balanced against the existing ones, which is giving me quite a headache.
What do you think of Satan Morroc, Ifrit and Beelzebub's drops in context of this server? They've obviously a few ridiculous items each.

Offline Sarin

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #34 on: Apr 05, 2009, 07:21 PM »
About warps, you might implement custom way. For example, each warp has to be activated, so you have to go there by foot at least first time. Of course, I assume warps would be to enterances only, especially in case of quest ones...but Geffenia is a little bit issue as if I recall correctly some parts can be done only at certain times...and for some people it might be a problem. Jobchanger and Platinum NPC's are a midratish feature IMO, so if you don't include it's ok. Resetter should be there but costly, I don't like when update screws my build.
Hm...2x exp rates? Damn. That would be a problem for me, as I won't have time for that.
These super-MvP drops...well, I wouldn't underestimate people and just remove them to be on a safe side.

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #35 on: Apr 06, 2009, 05:15 AM »
About warps, you might implement custom way. For example, each warp has to be activated, so you have to go there by foot at least first time. Of course, I assume warps would be to enterances only, especially in case of quest ones...but Geffenia is a little bit issue as if I recall correctly some parts can be done only at certain times...and for some people it might be a problem. Jobchanger and Platinum NPC's are a midratish feature IMO, so if you don't include it's ok. Resetter should be there but costly, I don't like when update screws my build.
Hm...2x exp rates? Damn. That would be a problem for me, as I won't have time for that.
These super-MvP drops...well, I wouldn't underestimate people and just remove them to be on a safe side.
I've seen that way on a server lately, although it was for town warps... I don't like it so much for dungeon warps, because even if it's only to entrances, it encourages MVP checklist play... I don't mind placing a Kafra in front of certain dungeons though (GH) so people can at least save there and don't have to walk back all the way upon dying.
The Sign quest was like that, but ultimately you just need one or two people from your guild to do it, since it opens the portal for anyone, so it's fine I hope.
Updates that screw builds are so very rare in RO, and there hasn't really been one in years.. starting off with the server including Moskovia, I don't see much on the horizon. I personally hate resetters because it allows you to reset easily leveled characters (TU priest, BattleBS etc.) to builds only decent at 90+ (ME priest, Pure Forger etc.), so noone would have to do any of the work, joy and pain of their build.
I've previously played on a server without advanced classes with 3/3/3, and hitting 99 took about 3 weeks, so with these new maps and equips, it should be that fast with 2/2/10 easily... I've even thought about 1/1/ exp rates instead, but that might genuinely scare players away.

Offline Guest

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #36 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:12 AM »
why do i get the feeling that the a lot of people don't like the trans classes is because of the assassin cross?.....

Offline A92FL0163

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #37 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:35 AM »
why do i get the feeling that the a lot of people don't like the trans classes is because of the assassin cross?.....

Way too fast, slowpoke. The major reason is that gravity can't seem to check assassin cross damaging power, since he have infil, edp, edp, sl, sb, accel, zherl mask and much more they use to deal instant death. While other classes that can't go invis behind, will need to get equips to survive and can't focus into one hitting everything around, and get nothing but some weird mob killing weapons and skills.

In other words, trans are trash. More rates please, around 10/10 QQ, or make a test server with double the normal rates that is totally testing so people don't keep on it. Most game have those, they add on the test server, check people opinion, then release on normal server.

Also, will it have ALL new things? Eg: Okolnir Quest, End Tower and Battlefield?
« Last Edit: Apr 06, 2009, 09:40 AM by Parameters »

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #38 on: Apr 06, 2009, 12:55 PM »
In other words, trans are trash. More rates please, around 10/10 QQ, or make a test server with double the normal rates that is totally testing so people don't keep on it. Most game have those, they add on the test server, check people opinion, then release on normal server.

Also, will it have ALL new things? Eg: Okolnir Quest, End Tower and Battlefield?
Are you asking for a test server with higher rates to complement the one I'm planning so people can test out builds in this environment? Endless Tower we will get eventually, but I'm not sure about Battlefield, and iirc Okolnir is related to those new godlikes, when I'm not even sure if we should have the original godlikes to start with.

I'd rather not discuss why advanced classes are supposedly bad, as there are many threads regarding the subject, and I'd hate to have this one derailed. Let's just assume this a foregone conclusion for now.

Offline A92FL0163

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #39 on: Apr 06, 2009, 01:03 PM »
In other words, trans are trash. More rates please, around 10/10 QQ, or make a test server with double the normal rates that is totally testing so people don't keep on it. Most game have those, they add on the test server, check people opinion, then release on normal server.

Also, will it have ALL new things? Eg: Okolnir Quest, End Tower and Battlefield?
Are you asking for a test server with higher rates to complement the one I'm planning so people can test out builds in this environment? Endless Tower we will get eventually, but I'm not sure about Battlefield, and iirc Okolnir is related to those new godlikes, when I'm not even sure if we should have the original godlikes to start with.

I'd rather not discuss why advanced classes are supposedly bad, as there are many threads regarding the subject, and I'd hate to have this one derailed. Let's just assume this a foregone conclusion for now.

The whole system would be a server with almost the same characteristics, raised rate, a weaker computer and being highly unstable because you would be testing things around and making updates on it, testing and when the update is fully balanced and bugless, update the original. Hmmm, you could still keep the quest but add other rewards?

Sorry about the small derail.

Offline Ayu

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #40 on: Apr 06, 2009, 01:59 PM »
I don't see why this type of server cant have battlefield with your own choice of prizes instead of battlefield rewards right now. It's a great addition to PvP.

Rather than trying to plan out everything on paper, you may want to consider just going on with it and take out all of the "questionable" items first. Afterward, slowly release them one by one instead of releasing them all at once. That way if a nerf is found to be too much/little, or if a removal is found to be a dying necessity/uncalled for, it's in control and only affects a few items at a time. The damage/affect on the economy is minimized then. Right now it seems like you're trying to decide on everything at once.

Offline A92FL0163

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #41 on: Apr 06, 2009, 02:21 PM »
I don't see why this type of server cant have battlefield with your own choice of prizes instead of battlefield rewards right now. It's a great addition to PvP.

Rather than trying to plan out everything on paper, you may want to consider just going on with it and take out all of the "questionable" items first. Afterward, slowly release them one by one instead of releasing them all at once. That way if a nerf is found to be too much/little, or if a removal is found to be a dying necessity/uncalled for, it's in control and only affects a few items at a time. The damage/affect on the economy is minimized then. Right now it seems like you're trying to decide on everything at once.

This, also, releasing a episode per time might make your server a lot more interesting and generally adding a little content each two week keep the players interested  and busy, so they don't leave after a week.

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #42 on: Apr 06, 2009, 06:05 PM »
The whole system would be a server with almost the same characteristics, raised rate, a weaker computer and being highly unstable because you would be testing things around and making updates on it, testing and when the update is fully balanced and bugless, update the original. Hmmm, you could still keep the quest but add other rewards?

Sorry about the small derail.
Not sure about opening the test server to the public, although that would certainly be an option if players expressed such an interest. Once everything is set up, stable and running, looking at editing such quests to suit the server is definitely an option.

I don't see why this type of server cant have battlefield with your own choice of prizes instead of battlefield rewards right now. It's a great addition to PvP.

Rather than trying to plan out everything on paper, you may want to consider just going on with it and take out all of the "questionable" items first. Afterward, slowly release them one by one instead of releasing them all at once. That way if a nerf is found to be too much/little, or if a removal is found to be a dying necessity/uncalled for, it's in control and only affects a few items at a time. The damage/affect on the economy is minimized then. Right now it seems like you're trying to decide on everything at once.
Going to admit now that I've not yet played battlegrounds, just seen a few videos and heard of the concept and equips, but it certainly looks like something we could have eventually. The addition of episodes like that is a remarkably good idea, but newer episodes not only come with a lot of newbie equip/enemies that I don't want to forcibly keep from players starting out, but with equipment that might significantly change how one would build their character, and I don't want to have to provide stat resets to everyone later on.
Making all the decisions right now is giving me quite a headache indeed, but I hope players will discuss them on the forums, and should they be unsatisfied with certain edits I made, they may be changed.

There'll be a lot of custom content/events that'll hopefully keep players interested for longe than a week anyway :(
« Last Edit: Apr 06, 2009, 07:03 PM by horo »

Offline A92FL0163

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #43 on: Apr 06, 2009, 07:22 PM »
The whole system would be a server with almost the same characteristics, raised rate, a weaker computer and being highly unstable because you would be testing things around and making updates on it, testing and when the update is fully balanced and bugless, update the original. Hmmm, you could still keep the quest but add other rewards?

Sorry about the small derail.
Not sure about opening the test server to the public, although that would certainly be an option if players expressed such an interest. Once everything is set up, stable and running, looking at editing such quests to suit the server is definitely an option.

I take my suggestion back,I've seen some official server games having this system and it just make people spam threads such as "OMGF IF DIS UPDATE HAPPEN I QUIT" and other petitions to remove the update and things like that.

Offline Ayu

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #44 on: Apr 06, 2009, 08:38 PM »
The addition of episodes like that is a remarkably good idea, but newer episodes not only come with a lot of newbie equip/enemies that I don't want to forcibly keep from players starting out, but with equipment that might significantly change how one would build their character, and I don't want to have to provide stat resets to everyone later on.
Making all the decisions right now is giving me quite a headache indeed, but I hope players will discuss them on the forums, and should they be unsatisfied with certain edits I made, they may be changed.

There'll be a lot of custom content/events that'll hopefully keep players interested for longer than a week anyway :(

I don't think most of the equipment really change how you build a character that significantly as most items don't have that severe +stat type of bonus except valk set so I don't think stat reset is much of a problem. Also, from a GM perspective instead of balance/player perspective, the act of gathering information and is on the initiative to discuss with the players first showers you in a greater light and earns authority/trust from your player base for what type of an admin you are.

Gravity releases new gears and they never provided reset even if that means they may have "oh no now I got 1 str too many!" Just live with it like any other regular server doing an update. No need the spoon feeding on that, imho.

Personally I still think that releasing items bit by bit (or episodes by episodes) make it easiest to balance, and ensure that the server got plenty of "new content" to look forward to.