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Author Topic: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.  (Read 27253 times)

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Offline Ayu

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2009, 07:59 PM »
I honestly think, smith/knight will always overshadow assassin except for emp breaking really... you just can't compare to spammonite/bowling bash in the melee damage department (though i wouldn't use hurricane fury, losing the thara shield is too great of a loss for smith. Orcish axe would still be my choice even if damage is lower and there's no CT). If you do buff melee damage output to help out assassin, you probably end up buffing the smith/knight even more. Assassin's other option is really just grim, which isn't a source of damage but more like status inducer in our scenario.

Not sure about changing the stone fling and if it really helps or hinders things... My WoE experience is extremely limiting and can only comment on the usually spammed skills.


Hm what about changing guardians back to not demihuman? If standard WoE weapons/armors no longer works on them, I think that it'll give them a much needed boost so that they are less of a joke.

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Offline soki

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #121 on: May 20, 2009, 10:27 PM »
Quote
6. Misc skills damage - 60%:Stone Fling reduction removed"
You just had to make Rogues and Assassins OP again.
how would removing Stone Fling dmg reduction make Rogue and Assassins OP(if it means OverPower)
i highly doubt it give more than 100dmg other than it's stun effect it's damage output is quite
pathetic compare to other quest skills... (outside WOE SF already does a whooping 50 dmg to porings
unless gravity changed them again)

brief question is these the official (iRO) reduction? since 2003?
basically i'm asking if it's the original reduction during the classic RO before trans
Quote
Current reductions:

1. Damage to guardians - 100%:
2. Melee attack - 80%:
3. Ranged attack - 80%:
4. Weapon skills damage - 60%:
5. Magic skills damage - 60%:
6. Misc skills damage - 60%:
7. Flee Penalty - 20%:

if it is i personally think it's fine the way it is but if it's still need some work then

1. Yea reducing damage guardians take is not a bad idea making them a little hard
to kill and maybe giving Guardings 10%more dmg so players actually bother killing
them other than ignoring it and making investment on them actually worth it

2. Is either fine they way it is or 90-100% is nice as long as it doesn't get any lower but
if you're going to add % to range then it's a must to make 100% dmg to melee attck

3. I honestly think adding damage to Range Damage will make things a little imballance because
of the new Trans Equips that gives more dmg to range and cards as well and you have
add that fact Agi-99 Hunters can easily dodge Melee Attcks(not Skills but some they can) and
their main role is to Trap people in Woe and beside that also adds %dmg to DS back in
the old iRO it doesn't take more than 5-8 DS to kill a wizzy or agi characters. So it shouldn't
be touched at all Archer Class' role should remain as semi support (traps / songs) and semi
killer. Well maybe making adding an extra 10% won't hurt but 20% is too much
(Note: Hunter's were NEVER useless in the old school iRO most if not all are capable of
dropping most class other than Priest and Crusader b**** to kill no actually their not even
possible to kill w/ Archers)

4. Not Sure

5. With the new Trans Equips raising Magic Dmg will be a b**** to handle specially while entering
pre-cast even w/ a Sinx/Paly/and/LK some of them drop like crazy w/ only 60% i can't imagine how
bad it'll be w/ another % rise to magic dmg

6. 60% to 100%? DAMN isn't that 40% higher damage way too much? i think 20% damage is okay
a smart trapper will definetely abuse that %. unless you would put a limit on how many traps
a hunter can lay down... that's overpower... And also i believe it's best to lower(maybe 1/2) Homunculus' damage
during Woe if you're not going to disable them.

7. Agree

Note: Actually most of these will depend on your server's Rate if most equips are easy to
acquire then most of those reduction and adding damage need to be implemented but
if you're going to have less than 5x drop rate i think WOE's system is fine the way it is
it might even be better to just Nerf some items and if you are worried that it'll be harder to
lvl in a Trans Lvlving Map (ex. Abyss) then Nerfing the monsters equal to the amount you
Nerfed the Equips is a lot better then again that's a whole lot of Nerfing to do..

EDIT: Regarding the KNIGHT's HP you can always have the server have a MAX HP like other
pServer so you put a limit hp modifier or such for that problem.

And also making your WOE 2hrs long will be good if you have decent amount of population

EDIT: IF IT'S POSSIBLE TO CHANGE HOW THE WOE SYSTEM WORKS LATER ON IN THE
GAME/SERVER I HIGHLY SUGGEST DOING SO IF AND ONLY IF ITEMS/EQUIPS ARE HARD
TO OBTAIN I THINK ONCE EVERYONE OR HALF OF THE POPULATION START HAVING
ALL TRANS EQUIPS THEN THAT WOULD BE THE TIME TO IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES
SO EVERYTHING WILL DEPEND ON YOUR RATES


Edit: in your old topic i think you highgly encourage partying right? maybe it's possible to
buff up most soloable MVPs and change their Summons to something stronger?

EDIT: Also there are pServer out there that disable certain items during WOE much like
how nonPOT pvp map works you can disable any equipments from Transcendant for those maps
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:54 PM by soki »

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #122 on: May 21, 2009, 03:36 AM »
I honestly think, smith/knight will always overshadow assassin except for emp breaking really... you just can't compare to spammonite/bowling bash in the melee damage department (though i wouldn't use hurricane fury, losing the thara shield is too great of a loss for smith. Orcish axe would still be my choice even if damage is lower and there's no CT). If you do buff melee damage output to help out assassin, you probably end up buffing the smith/knight even more. Assassin's other option is really just grim, which isn't a source of damage but more like status inducer in our scenario.

Not sure about changing the stone fling and if it really helps or hinders things... My WoE experience is extremely limiting and can only comment on the usually spammed skills.


Hm what about changing guardians back to not demihuman? If standard WoE weapons/armors no longer works on them, I think that it'll give them a much needed boost so that they are less of a joke.

Hurricane's Fury is a bit risky, but I wanted to see what damage output was possible with the new equips classes gain access to. Why do you think buffing melee (meaning non-skill) damage helps Knights, who have crappy attack/weapons (the 1000% from BB is what makes them hurt) or BS, who won't have meltdown? I think comparing Crit Builds, Assassin have slightly higher damage outputs than BS. I agree about the overshadowing, it's unfortunate. What I disagree with is Gravity's solution to the problem :P

The stone fling comment was a joke, as it's the weakest damage skill in the game at a set 50 damage, so it being affected by a damage change to other things won't make a difference.

The idea to change guardians (probably to formless) is a great idea and I'll take it. I don't think you've ever made a post in one of my threads that didn't contain a great idea I accepted no questions asked, thanks a lot  :)


@soki: I appreciate your long post!

1. I think those reductions have been in game eversince, but there's a lot of misinformation around about them. I do remember playing when WoE was first introduced on iRO servers.

2. Ranged attack is far easier to reduce than melee because of Alligator, Noxious and stuff, and actually, there isn't much new equip giving more damage to range except for Sniping Suit, which is really rare (droprate is 10x) and hard to get without rebirth classes. Also you mistake that this is ranged non-skill damage, DS falls under category 4 with melee skills unless I'm horribly mistaken about something.

3. There's certainly a lot of good new matk equip, but then there's a lot of new mdef equip also. I'm going to be cautious raising this certainly.

4. Trappers have become so absolutely utterly useless now that you cannot stack traps or push them with arrow shower anymore that I honestly don't mind. It's not like you can lay them under people anymore.

5. Regarding the rest of your post, my strategy is to touch as few items, equips and enemies as possible since I want players to be able to use common databases. I'll obviously have to change some MVP eventually, but certainly not by making them even stronger.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 03:39 AM by horo »

Offline Sarin

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #123 on: May 21, 2009, 11:37 AM »
I dunno if it is possible, but one way how to make guards more worth killing is altering their AI to prioritize cloaked/hiiden chars. As far as I remember, they were always mostly used for that.

Offline A92FL0163

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #124 on: May 21, 2009, 12:44 PM »
Quote
6. Misc skills damage - 60%:Stone Fling reduction removed"
You just had to make Rogues and Assassins OP again.
how would removing Stone Fling dmg reduction make Rogue and Assassins OP(if it means OverPower)
i highly doubt it give more than 100dmg other than it's stun effect it's damage output is quite
pathetic compare to other quest skills... (outside WOE SF already does a whooping 50 dmg to porings
unless gravity changed them again)


I was being sarcastic about the fact it is one of the skills don't really change (Fact it is used only for stun).

Offline soki

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #125 on: May 21, 2009, 02:28 PM »
@parameters lol it's hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic online hehe ok i hope you didn't get offended i was just asking question
i haven't used STone Fling in a while so i thought maybe gravity changed it

@horo
Quote
2. Also you mistake that this is ranged non-skill damage, DS falls under category 4 with melee skills unless I'm horribly mistaken about something.
yea i've mistaken it for Skill Dmg XD
Quote
4. Trappers have become so absolutely utterly useless now that you cannot stack traps or push them with arrow shower anymore that I honestly don't mind. It's not like you can lay them under people anymore.
hmm isn't the only reason Trappers became useless was because of the recent updates such as trans because of their ability to pretty much
walk pass them and since you're trying to make pretty much the classic iRO WOE wouldn't that bring back their usefullness?
Quote
5. Regarding the rest of your post, my strategy is to touch as few items, equips and enemies as possible since I want players to be able to use common databases. I'll obviously have to change some MVP eventually, but certainly not by making them even stronger.
if things gets too hard on trying to balance things out you can always restrict some cards and equips in WOE castle
just a thought it makes things a lot easier but in the same time it won't nerf/make other equips useless outside WOE
i've seen it done before and by restricting it there will be no reason to tweak those equips less scripting? maybe...?

Restricting equipments/cards on WOE castle will definetely bring back the old classic iRO WOE
before the Lighthalzen Update but everything is up to you man

Edit: well that's just my opinion is kinna hard to imagine having the new equips for any non-trans class for WOE and
how it'll effect it hopefully they won't be dropping like flies

Edit: hmm just thought about it if you're trying to bring back the Classic WOE then item restriction is your best if not only option
but if you're just trying to have a server w/ balance class and balance WOE w/out bringing back the old school
feel to it then changing some of the WOE system is your best option.. so it depends on what you really want it the end
either way i'll probably try it out when it gets decent amount of players i do miss playing 2nd jobs
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 03:31 PM by soki »

Offline Ayu

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #126 on: May 22, 2009, 10:55 PM »
I don't think the point of horo's future server is to bring back anything classic. Rather, it is to enjoy the new content without the trans/extended classes. If it's a server that's going back to the classics, i don't think horo would've spent the extra effort to re-balance all the new items instead of just taking them out.

As for the emperium change, somehow i'm a bit hesistant on that. If the emp's hp went higher, but there is also an increase in how easy it is to kill other players, it helps the defense team quite a bit. We don't know if the other changes will make it too easy or too hard to kill players yet. If it's too easy to kill players, then together with emp hp increase, it'll be a great advantage for the defending team to the point that you need a zerg rush to break the emp. I personally say, just keep the emp as it is for now.

I'm also against restricting certain equips in WoE... why hunt for it at all if you can only use it half the time? >>; The equips ought to be balanced enough for using in both pvm and pvp.

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #127 on: May 23, 2009, 02:05 AM »
I don't think the point of horo's future server is to bring back anything classic. Rather, it is to enjoy the new content without the trans/extended classes. If it's a server that's going back to the classics, i don't think horo would've spent the extra effort to re-balance all the new items instead of just taking them out.

As for the emperium change, somehow i'm a bit hesistant on that. If the emp's hp went higher, but there is also an increase in how easy it is to kill other players, it helps the defense team quite a bit. We don't know if the other changes will make it too easy or too hard to kill players yet. If it's too easy to kill players, then together with emp hp increase, it'll be a great advantage for the defending team to the point that you need a zerg rush to break the emp. I personally say, just keep the emp as it is for now.

I'm also against restricting certain equips in WoE... why hunt for it at all if you can only use it half the time? >>; The equips ought to be balanced enough for using in both pvm and pvp.

You speak for me so well that I'd just be repeating your words if I responded to soki.

Regarding the the emperium, on rebirth servers it's like this: The emp can be broken very fast by the empbreaker (Sinx), but he can also be killed equally fast by the defense since rebirth classes have very high damage output, including a few 1-2 shot skills. Once 2-3 Sinx reach the emp, it'll pretty much game over (on official servers it's called a bytchtake: rushing the emp without cleaning out the defending guild).

As for my WoE setup, breaking should still be possible in about under a minute (I've yet to test this thoroughly) but I want to emulate the breaking times as if original melee-damage reductions were in place because I'm changing them for pvp damage only. Eathena working in such a way that the emperium is affected by the change in damage reduction isn't actually what I wanted. I don't intend to make the strong skills stronger in WoE, I'm simply adjusting them to keep damage (in percentage of health) received as it would be without the rebirth equips that give a greater boost to defense than offense across the board. I hope I'm making sense!

I agree with restricting items specifically in WoE. I was just reading your godlike discussion thread yesterday about what to do with these items, it's good exercise for an aspiring GM also  ;)

Offline soki

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #128 on: May 23, 2009, 03:28 PM »
I don't think the point of horo's future server is to bring back anything classic. Rather, it is to enjoy the new content without the trans/extended classes. If it's a server that's going back to the classics, i don't think horo would've spent the extra effort to re-balance all the new items instead of just taking them out.

I'm also against restricting certain equips in WoE... why hunt for it at all if you can only use it half the time? >>; The equips ought to be balanced enough for using in both pvm and pvp.

Ahh ok that's why i said "if" at the end

Edit: hmm just thought about it if you're trying to bring back the Classic WOE then item restriction is your best if not only option
but if you're just trying to have a server w/ balance class and balance WOE w/out bringing back the old school
feel to it then changing some of the WOE system is your best option.. so it depends on what you really want it the end
either way i'll probably try it out when it gets decent amount of players i do miss playing 2nd jobs

there was 2 options there hmm regarding the emp actually a regular DD sin w/ IcePick can kill the emp(HP-68430) in less than 25 second
w/ Magni's (str+2), thiefcloth (agi +1), 2x Ring(mantis),= str - 99+16 agi 79+11 w/out buff so if it's raise
to 80k then that will still be less than a minute it's abit harder but able to pull off but w/out the IcePick lol it'll take a long time

EDIT: ohh horo btw since Sinx in Lighthalzen drops DeadlyPoison are you going to keep those drops in game? w/out the skill EDP it's
only main purpose is to add extra ASPD just like Awakes and Berserk(and poison them in the same time) tho it'll probably kill the sin
once they drink it (double click it) LOL
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 03:53 PM by soki »

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #129 on: May 23, 2009, 03:45 PM »
Pretty sure with those stats and gears you won't last 25 seconds in the emp room, let alone at the emp ;)
I'll have to do proper testing over the next week and see where I'll end up.

Deadly Poisn Bottle isn't the only problem with Biolabs 3, as the only way that MVP will die to 2nd classes is by ledging, and the level doesn't really offer much to them otherwise. Definitely going to place a quest NPC somewhere in there though  :-[

« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 03:16 AM by horo »

Offline soki

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #130 on: May 23, 2009, 03:54 PM »
ohh no i mean the EREMES once that drops DeadlyPotions not the MVP lol it's a b**** to kill those
i mean the regular Sinx in BioLab they drops DeadlyPotion will you keep them? as an ASPD booster
since Assassin doesn't have EnchantDeadly then those pretty much play as a aspd potion

LOL yea they wont survive lol SG hurts for any Agi characters but yea unless you manage
to have your guild take out the PreCast then perhaps you'll survive w/ spaming slim whites but
when ever we play in a guild we usually keep the breakers at the end of the line up so they have
better chance of surviving
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 04:02 PM by soki »

Offline LiteX

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #131 on: May 23, 2009, 10:58 PM »
ohh no i mean the EREMES once that drops DeadlyPotions not the MVP lol it's a b**** to kill those
i mean the regular Sinx in BioLab they drops DeadlyPotion will you keep them? as an ASPD booster
since Assassin doesn't have EnchantDeadly then those pretty much play as a aspd potion

LOL yea they wont survive lol SG hurts for any Agi characters but yea unless you manage
to have your guild take out the PreCast then perhaps you'll survive w/ spaming slim whites but
when ever we play in a guild we usually keep the breakers at the end of the line up so they have
better chance of surviving

I'm pretty sure other mobs like kikimora drops EDP bottles, and I guess the emp could also get a small HP boost to provide less bytchtaking
ライテ‐エクス

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #132 on: May 25, 2009, 04:55 AM »
Welp, just found out WoE reductions stack after all, so I cannot boost any of these separately. Changing ranged damage reduction affects all ranged skills including magic also, so in order to boost non-skill damage only I would have to lessen the reductions on melee and range, and heighten the reductions on skill and magic damage  :-\

Offline Skotlex

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #133 on: May 25, 2009, 04:44 PM »
Welp, just found out WoE reductions stack after all, so I cannot boost any of these separately. Changing ranged damage reduction affects all ranged skills including magic also, so in order to boost non-skill damage only I would have to lessen the reductions on melee and range, and heighten the reductions on skill and magic damage  :-\

That shouldn't be true... current eA trunk has this:
Quote
//battle_calc_gvg_damage():
      if (flag & BF_SKILL) { //Skills get a different reduction than non-skills. [Skotlex]
         if (flag&BF_WEAPON)
            damage = damage * battle_config.gvg_weapon_damage_rate/100;
         if (flag&BF_MAGIC)
            damage = damage * battle_config.gvg_magic_damage_rate/100;
         if (flag&BF_MISC)
            damage = damage * battle_config.gvg_misc_damage_rate/100;
      } else { //Normal attacks get reductions based on range.
         if (flag & BF_SHORT)
            damage = damage * battle_config.gvg_short_damage_rate/100;
         if (flag & BF_LONG)
            damage = damage * battle_config.gvg_long_damage_rate/100;
      }
I don't know what you are doing, but it should behave as you expected earlier.

(RMS reviews)

Offline horo

Re: Avoiding advanced classes to balance a server.
« Reply #134 on: May 25, 2009, 04:51 PM »
Oh I see, I posted a thread on the eathena forums and got a contrary response. The test server is down again, so I cannot test right now, however accurate those results would be. I sincerely hope you're correct.