RateMyServer Ragnarok Community

Hello, I posted this a while ago but I'm refining more this idea so I'll post it again. I'm not trying to make a server due to my lack of time, lacf of advertising skills and lack of patience with users (while I enjoy a big populated server, I really dislike management tasks). Someday I'll meet somebody who shares this view and can take care of everything while I develop it - at least I can dream.

The problem:
So the purpose of this server is giving back those feelings we got the very first time we came into the game. Some of current servers try that mimicking official settings but I think it's a bad approach: the game is too old and we already know it too well, nothing surpise us, every class has a defined build for PVM and MVP and mobs are just too well known.

My point of view:
What I want to try to do (if I got the luck of finding some trusty guy to work with) is changing the game a little bit, enough for it to feel fresh and new, while still retaining the essence of this game. Also, I want to update the focus of the game: focus on the fun aspects like boss hunting (as a group, so the difficulty should be raised), PVM, WoE, BG, etc and still retaining the grinding aspect which is essential for the game but, making it less boring and repetive without affecting the economy.

These changes would be very light, as I already said, I don't want to transform the game into something else. These changes only focus on: skill balancing, improvement on various job builds, mechanics changes to make the game less monotonous and fun vs grinding compensation.

My proposed solution:
- Focus: These changes are focused for casual and harcore players that don't demand affinity to the official view of the game. Thus, it's focused on people without too much time that still wants to play this game, but also considers the long run aspects of the game, so players don't get bored without anything more to do.

- Geography: As european, I would focus this server for american/european population. I find the east USA coast the perfect location for the western population.

- Rates: Low experience rates vs higher drop rates. One of the things I'll never understand is why server admins choose always to have high experience rates and low drop rates, it makes you easy to get a naked 99/70 character and then spend ages getting equipment. Boring as hell. I propose something like: 2x for experience, 5x as base drop, and 10x as card drop. Why? Because that way you'll get equipment for leveling up faster and going to more dangerous zones. The way it is now, you are leveling up quicker than the time you'll spend for PVM equipment. Making PVM equipment, useless if not for MVP.

- Seed of fortune: This is an item I have suggested to every ragnarok server admin I have ever known. It would be a magical item that would transform your fun time into grinding rewards. This is how it works: this item would be obtainable via fun-related aspects of the game like MVP, monsters killing (low chance), Batteground, etc. It would be a usable item that would make every mob you kill (when active) drop twice the drop. No, not doubling the rate for that mob, but multiply the drop items by 2. If a poring gives you jellopy at 10% and the card at 0.1%, it could give you TWO jellopies at 10% and TWO cards at 0.1%. Why this way, you ask? Because of usables and items farming, which is needed for woe, for example. This way if you spend 1 hour having fun and 1 hour grinding, you'll have the very same as if you had grinded 2 hours straight. The difference? one of those hours, you had fun.

- Donation policy: Absolutely no pay 2 win. Cosmetics maybe, but only if the server costs are greater than expected, nowadays it's quite cheap.

- Equipment: As for seed of fortune, it would make everybody able to obtain the desired equipment for PVM or WoE rather easily. However, in contrast refinement chances would be downgraded, so high end equipment would still be hard to get.

- Classes: For the sake of making it simple and because I consider 2-2 classes more fun than trans I would focus this to 2-2 classes only.

- Environment: The idea is offering the stock, classic like world we all know from episode 9, to further update it with newer but altered maps, like Odin Temple, Lighthalzen, Abyss Dungeon, etc but with changes suitables for 2-2 classes.

- Updates: Further updates with new content like the already mentioned for the environment, but also offer some new classes like Soul Link or Ninja - btw, I plan on making the Soul Linker also a PVP/WoE offensive attacker, but of course, changing mechanics so it's not overpowered for 2-2 classes.

- Skill balacing: This is were my mind is focused as it's what the player would be experiencing first hand. This changes are meant to favor build variety and classes balancing. Stop making a monk just asura everybody in woe, let's make PVM builds also suitable for WoE, and such. You can see a complete list of changes here: http://pastebin.com/raw/HQmxx4KZ (http://pastebin.com/raw/HQmxx4KZ)

- Woe changes: Magic deals 50%, ranged physical deals 60%, melee deals 65%. Special focus on making low-vit builds viable.

- Economy: Zeny should be stricty controlled. Zeny sinks like healer, partial job resets, name changes, etc should encourage spending money on NPC. Also, costumes and mounts would be available with a zeny fee.

- Globalization: Every city is usable with a warper, kafra and an adapted inn NPC. The Role playing style should be left intact.

Summary:
These changes are meant to be the opposite of current, classic servers focused on a "pure" episode 8.2 environment. I find those kind of server falling too much in the skills/classes balance part, makes some classes too overpowered and others are just plain useless, which makes the game boring. I focus on fun content, while still retaining the nostalgia feeling.

The population is key in this game and such, a playerbase of at least 100 people would be needed. The social aspect of the game is what makes it fun, so if this idea is so bad nobody thinks they'd join something like this, I'd surely drop it.

Please don't be harsh, I know it's too much text, so I doubt anybody would read it all.
Excuse my English.

Here's one, try to look it up. It has all the stuff you have listed above, but it's still under-development. I'm also part of their team, somewhat,but yeah, if you want you could always jump in. Just pm Neffletics.

Link~ Click me! (http://sorinro.com/)

The approach is similar, but I don't see anything regarding 2-1, 2-2 classes, and 2-3 is just too much customization.

Also, as an european, an asian server is a no-no.

Some thoughts:

- you can never get the old feeling back no matter what changes you make.

- Disregarding the asian community is foolish. They are what's still keeping RO alive today.

- Balance does not imply fun. If you take something away from a certain class, it takes away the fun for those who played it (Monk asura). Instead, bring the other classes up to a level where they can compete.

- From my observation, I've come to think that every single change we make should be regarded as a potential loss of players. At the same time, I think that "close-to-official" servers without drastic changes will always go into a downward spiral eventually. So it's good that you want to keep your changes light, but they have very little impact overall, especially when thinking about advertising.

Personally, I hate grinding. I think it's bad design. You imply that grinding and fun are mutually exclusive as well. But then why do you think it's still necessary?

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 17, 2016, 06:50 PM
- you can never get the old feeling back no matter what changes you make.

Although I don't like opinions stated as facts, you do have a point. I consider it could get back some of those feelings (learning how it works again, playing with different builds, etc).

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 17, 2016, 06:50 PM
- Disregarding the asian community is foolish. They are what's still keeping RO alive today.

Don't misrepresent my words. Asian countries are in the opposite side of the world for me, my focus is on Europe and American countries. Think about ping and cultural proximity.

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 17, 2016, 06:50 PM
- Balance does not imply fun. If you take something away from a certain class, it takes away the fun for those who played it (Monk asura). Instead, bring the other classes up to a level where they can compete.

Balance does implies fun in the general view, for obvious reasons. In the asura case, it's a sacrifice needed for the sake of other Monk builds to shine (even necessary for other melee classes to be useful).

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 17, 2016, 06:50 PM
- From my observation, I've come to think that every single change we make should be regarded as a potential loss of players. At the same time, I think that "close-to-official" servers without drastic changes will always go into a downward spiral eventually. So it's good that you want to keep your changes light, but they have very little impact overall, especially when thinking about advertising.

Yeah. These kind of changes has a target audience.

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 17, 2016, 06:50 PM
Personally, I hate grinding. I think it's bad design. You imply that grinding and fun are mutually exclusive as well. But then why do you think it's still necessary?

For various reasons:
- Grinding and Ragnarok online are linked. Removing it is not precissely a light change.
- Achievements and gratification by invested effort.
- It would be hard to remove the grinding aspect of the game with a solution that doesn't look like a poor high rate private server choice.
Grinding is not that bad if kept to a minimum. I consider it bad when grinding takes just too much time compared to other tasks.

I've felt the same way for years since ragnarok renewal was release. I don't think you're alone in that regard because we all played Ragnarok as kids, but then, the real world.

If anything, you're going to have a hard time putting together a team and properly coordinating the efforts between your developers, artists, and content creators. Of which, you need at least one core and web developer, and a server administrator for assembling and building your tool chains and infrastructure.

Getting a well-oiled machine and an engineering team is hard; you would have better luck working with an existing server and convincing them to implement your ideas instead. So just butter up the arrogant server owner and influence the staff to get your way. But you rarely see that kind of ambition and sneakness nowadays. (Hence the lack of drama.)

Yes, yes, make another Renewal, that seems to be a good idea!

I think there are too few servers anyways.

It sounds way more like a pre-renewal reboot with new equipments and items, enhanced monsters and skills, and standard quality of life systems than another renewal. He also included content pacing by recommending sane experience to item drop rate ratio. All of it can add up to a change in the meta game, i.e. new player builds and strategies or training locations, with pre renewal game mechanics.

I am not saying its a bad idea, just very difficult to execute. (And a lot of work. lots of it.)

Quote from: Bue on Sep 17, 2016, 11:12 PM
you need at least one core and web developer, and a server administrator for assembling and building your tool chains and infrastructure

No, I can do that. Artists and designers would be a nice enhancement if I plan on updating classes sprites, but it's nothing necessary per se.

Quote from: DarkDevine on Sep 18, 2016, 03:55 AM
Yes, yes, make another Renewal, that seems to be a good idea!

Yeah, changing skill formulas is so similar to revamping the entire game as Renewal did, right?

Quote from: Bue on Sep 18, 2016, 04:38 AM
It sounds way more like a pre-renewal reboot with new equipments and items, enhanced monsters and skills, and standard quality of life systems than another renewal. He also included content pacing by recommending sane experience to item drop rate ratio. All of it can add up to a change in the meta game, i.e. new player builds and strategies or training locations, with pre renewal game mechanics.

I am not saying its a bad idea, just very difficult to execute. (And a lot of work. lots of it.)

Hmm no, I never said anything about new equipments and items, or modifying monsters. Although I find bosses need a rework to make them not solo-able.

These changes are very light, and can be done rather quickly. I might as well add something later on for some diversity, but as it's now as starting point is a simple task.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 08:36 PM
Balance does implies fun in the general view, for obvious reasons. In the asura case, it's a sacrifice needed for the sake of other Monk builds to shine (even necessary for other melee classes to be useful).

Fun may imply balance, but it doesn't work the other way around. Pong may be perfectly balanced, but it get's boring because there isn't enough depth to it. I guess I meant to say that while balancing is important, preserving the depth that is already there should take priority.

You could make it so that melee classes can either tank Asura or can outplay it, like giving them an SP drain effect on an item or one of their skills. There's also Absorb spirits, Hide, Dispell, Safety wall, Traps, Spell breaker/Hitstun which offer some ideas to play around with. I just don't see how removing one build in favor of another would create more build variety and how that necessarily equals more fun.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 08:36 PM
- Grinding and Ragnarok online are linked. Removing it is not precissely a light change.
- Achievements and gratification by invested effort.
- It would be hard to remove the grinding aspect of the game with a solution that doesn't look like a poor high rate private server choice.
Grinding is not that bad if kept to a minimum. I consider it bad when grinding takes just too much time compared to other tasks.

Good points. But I wouldn't exactly call 2x exp rates a minimum of grinding.. Unless you offered exp rewards from Battlegrounds, or significantly cranked up the Exp given by MvPs, or if you implement the higher level dungeons right away. Also, you can invest effort without making it feel like work. Hunting cards is so incredibly dull, especially when it's a mob that provides zero challenge to you. Same with farming zeny/supplies. The fact that they are mostly solo activities makes it even more dull. If I were you I would try to make sure that farming in a party is ALWAYS superior to farming alone, and that it is very easy to get into right from the start. Suddenly it won't feel like such a grind anymore, and you've strengthened social bonds which (hopefully) makes people less likely to leave.

I really like discussing these topics, great to see this.

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 18, 2016, 09:01 AM
Fun may imply balance, but it doesn't work the other way around. Pong may be perfectly balanced, but it get's boring because there isn't enough depth to it. I guess I meant to say that while balancing is important, preserving the depth that is already there should take priority.

You could make it so that melee classes can either tank Asura or can outplay it, like giving them an SP drain effect on an item or one of their skills. There's also Absorb spirits, Hide, Dispell, Safety wall, Traps, Spell breaker/Hitstun which offer some ideas to play around with. I just don't see how removing one build in favor of another would create more build variety and how that necessarily equals more fun.

Balance implies fun in this case because it creates diversity, different kind of scenarios and uncertainty about the opposite player's build and skills is fun, imo. The pong example is bad in this case because it has zero diversity, while this change in particular estimulates the pressence of other melee/damage dealer jobs in the woe scene.

I'm tired of current classic servers because they're just too predictable: I see a Monk, he's gonna try asura me. I see a Sage, he's gonna dispell me. I see a Hunter, just laying traps. I see no Rogue, no Assassin, no Alchemist, they're useless. There's no depth.

Even so, this change doesn't remove the Asura build. In fact there's no Asura build, it's just a skill. The so called Asura build is what was called spirit build (fast cast times for TSS, OI and of course Asura). Every Monk will be able to use Asura, just not that often. Here's my arguments for this change:
- It's an ultimate skill by design. Gravity just f*** up and let it be as spammable as you can as long as you have SP items.
- It's overpowered. In the WoE scene is the only physical skill that matters. Every other physical skill is shadowed by it.
So if you have a 20 ppl guild, you would do more with 5 Asura Monks than with 3 assassins, 2 Rogues, 2 Blacksmith, 3 Alchemist and 2 Combo Monks. Who would like to go the Combo, the crit or the Spirit way when you can have Snap and throw Asura every ten seconds? Which guildmaster would like to have an assassin that deals 800 damage per sonic blow instead of an asura monk who can 1 hit KO almost every class in the same span time? This change really improves diversity overall.

Absorb spirits, Hide, Dispell, Safety wall, Traps, Spell breaker/Hitstun, etc also applies to others offensive skills as well, and again, it also applies to Asura in this case, just not that often.

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 18, 2016, 09:01 AM
Good points. But I wouldn't exactly call 2x exp rates a minimum of grinding.. Unless you offered exp rewards from Battlegrounds, or significantly cranked up the Exp given by MvPs, or if you implement the higher level dungeons right away. Also, you can invest effort without making it feel like work. Hunting cards is so incredibly dull, especially when it's a mob that provides zero challenge to you. Same with farming zeny/supplies. The fact that they are mostly solo activities makes it even more dull. If I were you I would try to make sure that farming in a party is ALWAYS superior to farming alone, and that it is very easy to get into right from the start. Suddenly it won't feel like such a grind anymore, and you've strengthened social bonds which (hopefully) makes people less likely to leave.

In this case, by grinding I mean getting items/cards, but you talk about experience rates. For me, leveling up and seeing my character evolving and becoming more porwerful is fun.

Oh glob this became really long, hope you like pointless discussions as much as I do.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 18, 2016, 10:14 AM
Balance implies fun in this case because it creates diversity, different kind of scenarios and uncertainty about the opposite player's build and skills is fun, imo. The pong example is bad in this case because it has zero diversity, while this change in particular estimulates the pressence of other melee/damage dealer jobs in the woe scene.

I'm tired of current classic servers because they're just too predictable: I see a Monk, he's gonna try asura me. I see a Sage, he's gonna dispell me. I see a Hunter, just laying traps. I see no Rogue, no Assassin, no Alchemist, they're useless. There's no depth.

Imo, depth comes from an opportunity for counterplay. Maybe it's possible to create build diversity in such a way that you need to actively try to figure out an opponent's build and react accordingly. But that doesn't really happen in vanilla RO, so it would require drastic rather than light changes. That's why I'd prefer to give every class unlimited skill points, for a start - more opportunities to adapt instead of using only a single skill which your build dictates.

If you're talking about woe, then I guess you're thinking about roster diversity. To be honest, WoE is a lost cause for me because there is always so little room for adapting in the middle of a fight. Your changes might allow more classes into WoE, but imo it comes at too great a cost. Nobody likes to get nerfed.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 18, 2016, 10:14 AM
Even so, this change doesn't remove the Asura build. In fact there's no Asura build, it's just a skill. The so called Asura build is what was called spirit build (fast cast times for TSS, OI and of course Asura). Every Monk will be able to use Asura, just not that often. Here's my arguments for this change:
- It's an ultimate skill by design. Gravity just f*** up and let it be as spammable as you can as long as you have SP items.
- It's overpowered. In the WoE scene is the only physical skill that matters. Every other physical skill is shadowed by it.
So if you have a 20 ppl guild, you would do more with 5 Asura Monks than with 3 assassins, 2 Rogues, 2 Blacksmith, 3 Alchemist and 2 Combo Monks. Who would like to go the Combo, the crit or the Spirit way when you can have Snap and throw Asura every ten seconds? Which guildmaster would like to have an assassin that deals 800 damage per sonic blow instead of an asura monk who can 1 hit KO almost every class in the same span time? This change really improves diversity overall.

Absorb spirits, Hide, Dispell, Safety wall, Traps, Spell breaker/Hitstun, etc also applies to others offensive skills as well, and again, it also applies to Asura in this case, just not that often.

Yea, I was around long enough to recognize the term spirit monk. =D
Asura was an ultimate skill in the past because you didn't want to spend tons of resources unless your guild was botting or something. And it was probably hard to level, like most WoE builds. But now, it pretty much is just an asura build, and some things need to change to keep things interesting.

I think I understand your intention at this point, and I've told you why I feel that nerfs are undesirable. So I'm just going to throw some ideas around. Note that I haven't actually played in a nontrans setting, although I would like to. My perspective mainly comes from a few thousand trans BG matches and watching pretrans woe videos from different servers. Also I've been BG'ing as a monk recently cuz I was too lazy to level. But eh.. here you go:

I agree that asura overshadows every other melee class. Not sure about knights, I guess it depends on the server settings. If the goal is to create more diverse interactions during combat, but without directly nerfing anyone, my first idea would be to significantly reduce heal from potions. As much as is necessary for a crit/grimtooth assassin or a double strafing hunter to get some kills. Heal, sanctuary and potion pitcher immediately become viable. The first problem would be that bowling bash would overpower other forms of DPS. I would try to balance the damage output of each class by carefully selecting the available weapons and items. BG weapons, stat foods, new equipment, etc.. This wouldn't exactly be a pure classic server. Ofcourse you could simply change the skill formulas, but I'd rather try to avoid that. I think it's better to have a custom item that increase damage on Acid Terror than to mess with the skill settings everyone is familiar with. But either way works.

Actually, I've just read the rest of your skill changes and I quite like them, apart from Asura. With lowered potion recovery and better DPS, there is already a good reason to have DDs other than monks in your guild roster: They can deal damage continuously, rack up kills more quickly and apply pressure in a way that an Asura monk cannot. Monks are easily disabled and take a while to recharge. This conflicts with the lowered cast time on call spirit, so I'd probably remove this buff but let Finger offensive only consume one sphere. Monks are also the only melee class that has to deal with cast times, which is another unique weakness that could be more pronounced. If you increase overall Aspd of melee hitters, a Monk will never be able to cast an Asura on them without getting interrupted. Unless they were caught off guard or the monk has devotion, which again creates some interesting counterplay. Okay, that's assuming a less organized and smaller scale BG setting. Overall it takes less changes to make every class viable in BG than to make them viable on a WoE guild roster. But for pretrans, I think it's doable.

I like the Dazzler change, it gives Blacksmiths a place to be. I also like the crusader buffs, venom splasher, grimtooth, backstab, matk on refinements.. hmm not sure about critical hits on skills. It's kind of an assassin thing, in the past it put them in the role of taking down tanks without consuming expensive SP pots. I feel like you could build on that. Although I like that it gives every physical hitter a bit of build diversity with only a small change. Maybe you could further increase critical damage on Katar Mastery.

About the traps.. What's the benefit of moving them? To create tighter clusters?

Okay now I'm really getting carried away but here's another idea: Remove green potions and other similar recovery items, or instead of being an instant recovery, make them work 3 seconds after you use them. Small change, but Poison and Silence status instantly become viable.


And finally..

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 18, 2016, 10:14 AM
In this case, by grinding I mean getting items/cards, but you talk about experience rates. For me, leveling up and seeing my character evolving and becoming more porwerful is fun.

At lv 95 or so, you've basically hit a plateau when it comes to character strength. After that it becomes a grind. Some players obviously enjoy that, but has there ever been a pretrans server which didn't die because players got bored at the end? I really think you need some interesting endgame content and not rely so much on prolonging the early stages. Endgame equipment in RO is pretty underwhelming and uninteresting as well outside of pvp. Not just in pretrans but also in trans episodes. So there is no way to boost your character in an impactful way once you've got to a high level. I feel that this is the main drawback of "close-to-official" or "classic" servers. Players with that preference tend to get bored quickly, unless they are somehow lured into a trap of custom content and get addicted to it.

I might try a server like this. But you'd have to give me an alternative to grinding mobs all the time =p

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
Someday I'll meet somebody who shares this view and can take care of everything while I develop it - at least I can dream.

Oh shit. Blinzer might just be the guy you have been dreaming for, waiting for, and hoping for all this time.

Quote from: Blinzer on Sep 18, 2016, 11:06 PM
Bunch of kiddo crap

Was this sarcasm? Please put /sarcasm tags in there, people could actually think you mean it.
Maybe rather work on implementing all Weapon sprites, it will only take a few days, won't it?!

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 18, 2016, 06:33 AM
Yeah, changing skill formulas is so similar to revamping the entire game as Renewal did, right?

Go think for a second why people disliked renewal. Because they have to search for new farming spots? No.
It's because it's simply not what they used to have.


You want to change the wrong things. Sure, you get 20 interested players that test all your s*** for 2 weeks and then they leave, because they actually wanted to play RO, not some weird donkey bastard kid of RO.
People built up knowledge on RO over a decade, fought thousands of PvP and GvG fights with the same skills over and over again.
Why do you think people want new content or different skills. RO has one of the most excessive content amounts of any MMORPG out there (Take out WoW, it's simply not comparable), heck, most people don't even know about it. Why would they, their warper brings them to every stage of every dungeon and every field, no need to walk anywhere.

You don't even realize most people don't even know what content RO already has. Through private servers, only a few people ever finished things like the New World quests, the only reason people ever visited Manuk and Splendide is because the monsters give good EXP, not because they wanted to explore the content it has to offer (Given that much of the content is going into Third Class direction)

Warpers, Skill- and Stat-Resetters, Platinum Skill NPCs, hey, go and kill more priests with Buffers, go and kill more Alchemists and Blacksmiths with awesome Shopping Malls, go and restrict Merchants by placing special vend zones in towns and prevent any kind of last-minute supply of dead merchants in dungeons.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
Stop making a monk just asura everybody in woe

Did you once, in your whole life, play something different than Super High Rates?
It's pretty easy to counter monks, in a multitude of ways. Heck, a f*** Thief can counter Asura Strike by Hiding. But of course, Max-Level 255, Max-Stats 200, Insta-Cast at 130, go get bashed by One Hit Asura Strike (and go try it on a Pala with Reflect build!).

Why do you think the SP reg is disabled for 5 minutes and all SP are drained by Asura Strike? I can tell you: So that you have to implement Yggdrasil Berries in your stores and move drop rates up greatly, as farming is annoying, right? Having a s*** of Grape Juice available for almost free also helps, really!

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 18, 2016, 10:14 AM
I'm tired of current classic servers because they're just too predictable: I see a Monk, he's gonna try asura me. I see a Sage, he's gonna dispell me. I see a Hunter, just laying traps. I see no Rogue, no Assassin, no Alchemist, they're useless. There's no depth.

I've seen pretty well working Combo Monk builds, Monks can also be used pretty well as tanks and lurers. Sage has LP and Volcano/Deluge/Gale, Hunter Arrow Shoer, DS, Detect, Backstab or Strip Rogue, Soul Link SB Assassin, FCP Alchemists are a must have in GvG.

Dude, do you even play RO?
Go and ask Asura-Monk on low-rates how long they have to farm in a week to stock up on enough SP items to last for a whole WoE.



RO is dead. What killed it?
It's easy to say Gravity killed it.
Then again Gravity made this game in a special way and the way it worked was the reason why people stuck to it for so long, millions of people playing it world-wide. Today they sit there and say "I miss RO. But what is a good server? Where can you play without losing your s*** after 2 weeks or getting ganged by players with GM-granted items? Who can we trust?".

Why did Low-Rates without any extras have up to 5.000 players and your mid- and high rates struggled at a maximum of like 600. Ever thought about it?


I suggest you go and play official servers for a bit and then open your mouth regarding what RO lacks and how to improve RO. It feels like you never played it at all or simply roamed from Mid-Rate to High-Rate thinking you're _playing_ RO.




Now, I don't want to look like I got all the answers, but I'll tell you what RO lacks.
RO is old, the technology is poor. You walk a straight line and it resets back 4 fields. You change directions and it walks in the other direction. You spawn in the game and have no idea where to go. You attack your first poring, die and don't learn that you have to put stat-points and equip your equipment without actually reading the NPC texts (Who the f*** reads that). A Blacksmith can forge anything, but not Katars or Bows. You use Double Strafe, but it keeps auto-hitting, you have to walk a cell or e.g. use First Aid to reset the ASPD-Delay to actually trigger your skill. You start a quest, it told you to go to some NPC in the third window, talking to it again he's telling you "What's up?".

Another problem I already mentioned above: Who to trust?
Most people are simply in it for money. How to find out if a server is worth it?
Download rA/Herc, go to Script Section, download the first page completely, throw them in the NPC folder, spit on it, set up the donation page (Everything else is WIP of course) and then go to RMS and post that you're making a huge, awesome beta in the shoutbox and your server is different from any. other. server out there.


There's even a simple solution to that: Love.

Sounds weird, but you simply have to invest love into the game.
Play it like it's supposed to be and improve it at points that make people smile on their faces, not have a greedy grin.

Start embracing RO. Go through the NPC sprites and realize what level of detail Gravity invested into them. Check out the new content and watch how Gravity still didn't lose the love for this game (Only the right path, as they'd really want to be like Blizzard lol).

The content is there and even the balance is there. Start working on the smaller things. Make every NPC have a proper, colored name. Improve NPC messages to actually state useful stuff. Replace Training Grounds with a proper tutorial that teaches you how to equip and use stuff. Give the player useful guides and hints. Use the new Renewal client features like navigation, quest icons and links (ITEMLINK, URL, NAVI, ever heard of it?). Fix bugs. Not only those that you implemented, but also those that have always been there. Shine more light on already existing features, give it quest icons and let people be navigated through the vast content of RO.


People: It's the small things. The details.

Stop wanting to make RO not RO anymore.

Funny responses. Keep going guys, RMS still has excellent entertainment value thanks to you.  /heh

One guy thinks he is a god for developing his own game based on copying years of work from both open source and closed source. But it's not very popular. The other guy thinks official stuff only is the way to go, when clearly it hasn't been working out ever since Renewal came along.

Then this third guy comes along and wants to change things up but is a little more realistic about it. And somehow it makes them furious. I have yet to understand how a human mind can work like that.

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 19, 2016, 08:33 AM
The other guy thinks official stuff only is the way to go, when clearly it hasn't been working out ever since Renewal came along.

Tell me where I said Renewal is the way to go.

Quoting myself

Quote
Check out the new content and watch how Gravity still didn't lose the love for this game (Only the right path, as they'd really want to be like Blizzard lol)

Take a look around and realize something: The only servers actually having players are those that kept it simple and original.


I am basing off on Pre-Renewal, that is the starting point in any case, I didn't think I have to point that out.

More than that, Renewal-content generally is actually pretty amazing. Look at all the sprites, maps, dungeons and items that Pre-Renewal will never get to see.
But it's probably better going Pre-Renewal and installing 5.000 cust0mz instead of using existing content, right?


Look, I don't know for how long you're here and in eA/rA/Herc communities in general, but people like him come and go, on a daily base. Everyone has the formular for the _perfect_ server out there, everyone knows what RO needs. This goes on for years now, we had Pokemon RO, we had Dragonball RO, we had ROs that mixed classes up, we had ROs that completely changed mechanics, we had ROs that made a completely different game out of it (Remember stuff like Seventh Sanctum? I do).
They all have something in common: They never had a real good amount of players.

None of them.
Why? Because it was simply not was it used to be. That's why Renewal failed. It wasn't RO anymore

People logged in, people tried to follow their habits, everything was different, they were lost, they left.


Let me get into detail with his post so that you understand (maybe).

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
the game is too old and we already know it too well, nothing surpise us, every class has a defined build for PVM and MVP and mobs are just too well known.

Yeah, right, because Renewal changed all spawn locations and build options and it was good, right?

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Focus: These changes are focused for casual and harcore players that don't demand affinity to the official view of the game. Thus, it's focused on people without too much time that still wants to play this game, but also considers the long run aspects of the game, so players don't get bored without anything more to do.

You know the biggest problem for any game is finding a good balance between casual players and grinding players.
For one, the casual players want to be able to reach what the hardcore players reach, without them getting frustrated.
For the other, the hardcore players want to be rewarded for hardcore playing, that's the reason why they do it.

You either have a focus on the first or on the second. With anything else you're either forcing casual into hardcore or hardcore into casual.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Geography: As european, I would focus this server for american/european population. I find the east USA coast the perfect location for the western population.

Yup, very great idea as most Ragnarok Online players right now come from phillipines, taiwan, malaysia and singapore.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
Boring as hell [...] and 10x as card drop

"Boring as hell". Now that's a reason! Guess what, grinding is always boring. It's supposed to be boring, that's what makes it grinding.

10x card drop? That's high-rate for many older players.
You can basically take Fly Wings out of the game at that exact same moment, as everyone will have a Creamy Card anyways.

Also notice (I don't know if you thought about it) that this will hurt the economy. Card prices will be much lower and the "zeny sinks" you've mentioned below switch from cards and equipment over to random stuff that costs zeny everywhere.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Seed of fortune [...]

Just another kind of "Auto-Event".

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Donation policy: Absolutely no pay 2 win. Cosmetics maybe, but only if the server costs are greater than expected, nowadays it's quite cheap.

Yeah, yeah. We all do that already. We all learned from RIOT games.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Equipment: As for seed of fortune, it would make everybody able to obtain the desired equipment for PVM or WoE rather easily. However, in contrast refinement chances would be downgraded, so high end equipment would still be hard to get.

That's simply a required consequence through increased drop rates. You're basically shifting the problem from grinding-frustration to upgrade-frustration.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Classes: For the sake of making it simple and because I consider 2-2 classes more fun than trans I would focus this to 2-2 classes only.

Let me make this clear. With 2-2 classes you mean 2-classes, as 2-1 is e.g. the Knight and 2-2 is e.g. the Crusader. Sounds like you know a lot about it.
It's proven that Third Classes are broken and EP9 is Rebirth, so nothing new here.
Look at Sarah Server, they go Classic all the way. Maybe you'd be better off playing there for a bit.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Environment: The idea is offering the stock, classic like world we all know from episode 9, to further update it with newer but altered maps, like Odin Temple, Lighthalzen, Abyss Dungeon, etc but with changes suitables for 2-2 classes.

Like, nerfing? Since nothing else would improve this experience for 2-classes.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Updates: Further updates with new content like the already mentioned for the environment, but also offer some new classes like Soul Link or Ninja - btw, I plan on making the Soul Linker also a PVP/WoE offensive attacker, but of course, changing mechanics so it's not overpowered for 2-2 classes.

The twist with the Soul Linker is that it usually can't skill Soul Links for all classes. Soul Linkers can, however, make a great difference in PvP/PvM as supportive characters while in PvM they even do useful damage (but has to drop on amount of Soul Links available)

Remove the Skill-Resetter and you have a reason for everyone to make multiple Soul Linkers.

What is next, make Blessing deal damage so the Priest doesn't lack on battle mechanics?

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
http://pastebin.com/raw/HQmxx4KZ (http://pastebin.com/raw/HQmxx4KZ)

What I see here is:
- Remove Trap is made useless
- Critical Firebolt on a Stone Cursed target and you got your Asura Strike back
- Priest-armies with Warp Portals to any MvP. The twist is, that you take time to get to the maps, that's why everyone got a chance. Have one person with a priest-army available and he will dominate the MvP spawns
- Combo Monk is becoming a no-brainer. Why would you remove the combo-requirements?
- 120s Asura Strike CD? Good job on disabling a complete Monk build. It's not that a Monk can simply _choose_ if he uses Combos or Asura Strike now, it's either Combo or Asura, they are two completely different builds (e.g. Combo Monk has AGI, Asura Strike Monks don't)
- Musical Strike will be the new DS. Notice that you can use it with Instruments only. You won't have Trans, so there's no arrow vulcan. The only viable reason to even switch to the instrument is to play songs. Playing songs, using Musical Strike would simply be an SP waste, in either way.
- Way to make Alchemists overpowered
- Yeah right, f*** Sin and Rogue. Flee is basically the only thing that keeps them alive, it what defines the Thief classes.
- Soul Link + SB changes = Sin can Asura Strike, too now
- You're reverting Backstab to its roots (Which is a good thing, but nothing new, it was like that in Classic)

The rest reads like "I have to do some changes, so what can I change" rather than "What exactly are the problems of these skills".

You're doing nothing more than shifting problems over to other problems. You fix one problem and create 4 others.
Welcome to the world of balancing.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Woe changes: Magic deals 50%, ranged physical deals 60%, melee deals 65%. Special focus on making low-vit builds viable.

People will still go VIT, as it also increases Potion effectiveness, just saying.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Economy: Zeny should be stricty controlled. Zeny sinks like healer, partial job resets, name changes, etc should encourage spending money on NPC. Also, costumes and mounts would be available with a zeny fee.

Zeny sinks are always a good idea, but this is nothing new.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
- Globalization: Every city is usable with a warper, kafra and an adapted inn NPC. The Role playing style should be left intact.

There is no role-playing in "Everyone is sitting AFK in Maintown because they can warp to any place anyways".

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 17, 2016, 10:05 AM
Please don't be harsh, I know it's too much text, so I doubt anybody would read it all.
Excuse my English.

Sorry for being harsh, I am not able to express this all in a friendlier way as I lack emoji-usage. I've read it all.
But this is what I think.

Woah, so much hate. Well:

QuoteYeah, right, because Renewal changed all spawn locations and build options and it was good, right?

Except Renewal is so different it's no longer the game we are used to. My changes are very light.

QuoteFor one, the casual players want to be able to reach what the hardcore players reach, without them getting frustrated.
For the other, the hardcore players want to be rewarded for hardcore playing, that's the reason why they do it.

That's why some changes make it easier to get equipment, while another change makes it harder to have high end equipment. As it's now, casual players can't rival harcore players at the most basic level - for example, a simple thara frog card does a huge difference, and with low rate drops it's still hard to get for a casual player.

A casual player would never be able to have the same performance as a hardcore, but the gap can be smaller.

QuoteYup, very great idea as most Ragnarok Online players right now come from phillipines, taiwan, malaysia and singapore.

Yes, it's a great idea because I'm not asian and I want to play this as well. There are not many classic servers for euro/american players, so I want to play one with these changes.

Quote10x card drop? That's high-rate for many older players.
You can basically take Fly Wings out of the game at that exact same moment, as everyone will have a Creamy Card anyways.

I don't find everyone having low level cards a bad thing. Soon or later they'll have it, why make players spend hours and hours killing boring low level mobs for something that they'll eventually get?

Thara frog example: It doesn't matter if you have 30 thara frog cards or 1, you can only equip one, and having more doesn't make you better in the game.

QuoteJust another kind of "Auto-Event".

Except it's not an event. It's designed to increase grinding proficiency while playing the game instead of directly increasing rates.

QuoteYeah, yeah. We all do that already. We all learned from RIOT games.

Condescending non-sense.

QuoteThat's simply a required consequence through increased drop rates. You're basically shifting the problem from grinding-frustration to upgrade-frustration.

Except it's not the same level of frustration. The frustration you have killing 5000 mobs of the same low level monster for not getting a thara frog card is not the same frustration as breaking 10 +6 shields for not even a point of defense.

QuoteLook at Sarah Server, they go Classic all the way. Maybe you'd be better off playing there for a bit.

Take a look yourself and check the bottom of the first post.

QuoteLike, nerfing? Since nothing else would improve this experience for 2-classes.

Well yes?

Quote
The twist with the Soul Linker is that it usually can't skill Soul Links for all classes. Soul Linkers can, however, make a great difference in PvP/PvM as supportive characters while in PvM they even do useful damage (but has to drop on amount of Soul Links available)

Remove the Skill-Resetter and you have a reason for everyone to make multiple Soul Linkers.

What is next, make Blessing deal damage so the Priest doesn't lack on battle mechanics?

This is such non sense I can't even reply to it. Hint: Blessing doesn't damage monsters, Linkers do. Enabling it on PVP is a nice addition for magic characters entusiasts.

QuoteWhat I see here is:
- Remove Trap is made useless

False. There are too many situations when you can't move traps. So Remove trap is still needed.

Quote
- Critical Firebolt on a Stone Cursed target and you got your Asura Strike back

Critical means it ignores defense, in this case, magic defense. I never had more than 20 mdef in my pre-trans characters and Firebolt never did much. Don't bluff.

Quote
- Priest-armies with Warp Portals to any MvP. The twist is, that you take time to get to the maps, that's why everyone got a chance. Have one person with a priest-army available and he will dominate the MvP spawns

As already in the document: non-mini/BOSS field map.

Quote
- Combo Monk is becoming a no-brainer. Why would you remove the combo-requirements?

No-brainer? The other way around. Now is like "LET'S SPAM KEYS UNTIL THE COMBO GOES OUT". With changes it's like: "Should I try to kill it with combo skills as soon as possible or wait until the triple combo activates to maximize damage".

Quote
- 120s Asura Strike CD? Good job on disabling a complete Monk build. It's not that a Monk can simply _choose_ if he uses Combos or Asura Strike now, it's either Combo or Asura, they are two completely different builds (e.g. Combo Monk has AGI, Asura Strike Monks don't)

As I already said, Asura is not a build. And you seem to have not much knowledge of the game, there's something called combo-asura. Pretty neat, check about it.

Quote
- Musical Strike will be the new DS. Notice that you can use it with Instruments only. You won't have Trans, so there's no arrow vulcan. The only viable reason to even switch to the instrument is to play songs. Playing songs, using Musical Strike would simply be an SP waste, in either way.

Except it has casting time.

Quote
- Way to make Alchemists overpowered

More like way to make Alchemist do damage according to the requirements of their skills.

Quote
- Yeah right, f*** Sin and Rogue. Flee is basically the only thing that keeps them alive, it what defines the Thief classes.

Yeah, 10 flee is such a difference they can't stay alive. Not like those agi classes without any skill that adds flee.

Quote
- Soul Link + SB changes = Sin can Asura Strike, too now

Do some math before calling everything the new asura strike. Also, if soul link is implemented, its skills would need some modifications too.

Quote
- You're reverting Backstab to its roots (Which is a good thing, but nothing new, it was like that in Classic)

Yep, thanks I guess.

Quote
The rest reads like "I have to do some changes, so what can I change" rather than "What exactly are the problems of these skills".

You're doing nothing more than shifting problems over to other problems. You fix one problem and create 4 others.
Welcome to the world of balancing.

Except those problems are just your bad math skills.

QuotePeople will still go VIT, as it also increases Potion effectiveness, just saying.

Nothing against it, the main problem with the vit-less builds is stun.

Quote
There is no role-playing in "Everyone is sitting AFK in Maintown because they can warp to any place anyways".

You missed the point of that comment. It's not about enabling any kind of NPC in all cities, but the required NPC to have a suitable sprite and location according to the city, to make it look better integrated instead of a bunch of npcs with all you need in the middle of the city.

--------------------------------------

Quote from: Bue on Sep 19, 2016, 01:06 AM
Oh shit. Blinzer might just be the guy you have been dreaming for, waiting for, and hoping for all this time.

I checked his forum and, well, there are just too many arbietrary changes I don't really get. Also, so many mechanics are being modified it's just another Renewal. So I guess I don't share his point of view.

-----------------------------

@Snowblind

QuoteImo, depth comes from an opportunity for counterplay. Maybe it's possible to create build diversity in such a way that you need to actively try to figure out an opponent's build and react accordingly. But that doesn't really happen in vanilla RO, so it would require drastic rather than light changes. That's why I'd prefer to give every class unlimited skill points, for a start - more opportunities to adapt instead of using only a single skill which your build dictates.

If you're talking about woe, then I guess you're thinking about roster diversity. To be honest, WoE is a lost cause for me because there is always so little room for adapting in the middle of a fight. Your changes might allow more classes into WoE, but imo it comes at too great a cost. Nobody likes to get nerfed.

I think these light changes, at least, makes it way better than in Vanilla RO. Heavy changes would just make it a different game.

I agree nobody likes to get nerfed, in fact I always had in mind what would happen with snap-asura builds, which are the most difficult ones to level up, but still I really think it's needed for the sake of variety. Also, they could always go combo-asura and still have Snap.

Bowling Bash: I played in a pre-trans server with ep. 9 mechanics, and I didn't find Knight extremelly powerful, think they are still based on cast time and aspd.

Traps: The purpose is to use traps offensively, like in PVP. Some traps would be modified, like Blast Mine, to do great damage to individuals. I think it would be quite cool to see a Hunter playing with them against other players in WoE/GvG

Pots and such: It would be nice, at least with cast time like someone suggested me once. Poison needs a bit more love.

Level 95: What can I say, that's intended! Otherwise there would be no reason to implement newer and harder dungeons.


-------------------------------

Anyway all these changes are just thing I got in mind, of course some will be wrong or unabalanced, would need some testing first :)

Quote from: DarkDevine on Sep 19, 2016, 09:37 AM
Tell me where I said Renewal is the way to go.

I'm talking about Pre-re. Ever since Renewal, players who choose pre-re get bored easily because it's old.

Quote from: DarkDevine on Sep 19, 2016, 09:37 AM
Take a look around and realize something: The only servers actually having players are those that kept it simple and original.

And they all fall into a downward spiral due to boredom and den dey die. Except Talon, which has lots of customs and lots of players. How come?

Quote from: DarkDevine on Sep 19, 2016, 09:37 AM
Look, I don't know for how long you're here and in eA/rA/Herc communities in general, but people like him come and go, on a daily base. Everyone has the formular for the _perfect_ server out there, everyone knows what RO needs.

And obviously you do too. Why so hostile?

Well, now we're getting a discussion up in here. Thanks for the detailed answer.

Don't see this as hate, I may sound grumpy in my views, but I am doing this s*** for over 10 years now and you might guess, I've already heard it all and seen it all and I'm simply mostly tired of it.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Except Renewal is so different it's no longer the game we are used to. My changes are very light.

That's what you think. But it seems you're not able to grasp the actual consequences in the long run.

Let me get something right first: It's respectable that someone sits down and has ideas, writes them down and tries to change stuff. Kudos to you for that.

The reason why I am "hating" on you here is because I neither think it's the holy grail nor I think it would do any good to the RO community. Right now your concept is simply just another server.

If it wouldn't be for this, heck, I'd go and make my own server, with blackjack and hookers. Not that I lack the competence, I am probably one of the most competent scripters and source editors around here.

The only reason why I don't do it: I don't want to make just another server. Because I don't think I got the absolute safe plan to rescue RO right now. I'm working on it, but I'm not quite there yet.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
That's why some changes make it easier to get equipment, while another change makes it harder to have high end equipment. As it's now, casual players can't rival harcore players at the most basic level - for example, a simple thara frog card does a huge difference, and with low rate drops it's still hard to get for a casual player.

A casual player would never be able to have the same performance as a hardcore, but the gap can be smaller.

So, let me correct my point then. You're shifting frustration from casual players to non-casuals. The first group has it easier than before while the latter has it harder than before. Now answer me this: Where is this reducing the gap between casuals and non-casuals? It's simply shifting it to a later point in the game.

I feel this is a change for the sake of change, not because it would actually result in something good.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Yes, it's a great idea because I'm not asian and I want to play this as well.

This wasn't about what kind of players you'd prefer on your server, this was about reality. Sure, having your main language to english is the way to go, but what other kind of focus would you want to have? Most servers enforce english already.

As for servers like Sarah Server, they have proxies for most regions in this world that actually work really well. You don't feel that it's a phillipine hoster.

What I want to tell you is: Don't state the obvious. Especially not if it sounds racist. Asian players have the same worth as american or european ones.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
I don't find everyone having low level cards a bad thing. Soon or later they'll have it, why make players spend hours and hours killing boring low level mobs for something that they'll eventually get?

Thara frog example: It doesn't matter if you have 30 thara frog cards or 1, you can only equip one, and having more doesn't make you better in the game.

RO knows no "low-level cards". There are cards of high-level monsters that suck balls and cards of low-level monsters that you wear at higher levels just as well.

The thing with your 30 thara frog cards is simply that a Thara Frog card won't be worth s***. On a real low-rate, you can be happy if you dropped a card a second time as you can sell it for high prices and make a fortune. This has a really positive impact on economy, as it's rewarding for players to find a card at all and you have a zeny sink for players that have too much money.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Except it's not an event. It's designed to increase grinding proficiency while playing the game instead of directly increasing rates.

You don't call it auto-event, but in essence, it is one.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Condescending non-sense.

Again: Don't state the obvious. It's simply nothing special.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Except it's not the same level of frustration. The frustration you have killing 5000 mobs of the same low level monster for not getting a thara frog card is not the same frustration as breaking 10 +6 shields for not even a point of defense.

Because...these items...come from nowhere? You still have to farm these items. You farm them faster, but they also break faster. Moving the problem, not solving it.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Take a look yourself and check the bottom of the first post.

I did, what was I supposed to see?

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Well yes?

Write: "Dumbing it down".

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
This is such non sense I can't even reply to it. Hint: Blessing doesn't damage monsters, Linkers do. Enabling it on PVP is a nice addition for magic characters entusiasts.

First off, Blessing can indeed be used in PvM, it lowers STR, DEX and INT of undead monsters. Did you ever step back and asked yourself why Gravity disabled it in WoE/PvP? Yeah right, probably because they weren't able to lower its damage.

No, it was to move the focus of the Soul Linker to soul linking. There is no need for another mage class, Soul Linkers are already pretty viable and people love them. In your case you will have Soul Linkers that are simply not loved, as they run around and Esma the s*** ouf of stuff instead of doing what they are supposed to do.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
False. There are too many situations when you can't move traps. So Remove trap is still needed.

What's more important is: Remove Trap is already there.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Critical means it ignores defense, in this case, magic defense. I never had more than 20 mdef in my pre-trans characters and Firebolt never did much. Don't bluff.

Stone-Curse/Firebolt or Frost Diver/Lightning Bolt kills a lot of classes almost instantly on a halfway good mage. VIT only increases the amount of health to take down in this case.
Also note, the only characters that have much MDEF are Priests, Mages, maybe Ninjas, some SLs and quite a few Palas maybe.

Tell me another thing: Why?
What exactly is the advantage of this, what exactly would that change, why is it needed and what makes you so sure that you thought of every little side-effect it has?

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
As already in the document: non-mini/BOSS field map.

Mis-read that. My fault. I thought you're going to enable it on Boss-Maps.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
No-brainer? The other way around. Now is like "LET'S SPAM KEYS UNTIL THE COMBO GOES OUT". Now it's like: "Should I try to kill it with combo skills as soon as possible or wait until the combo to maximize damage".

Which combo monk spams keys until the combos come out? What sense would be there in that?
Exactly that is the important thing on a combo monk, having the ability to time your skills correctly to actually get your full combo out which makes the difference in playing it.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
As I already said, Asura is not a build. And you seem to have not much knowledge of the game, there's something called combo-asura. Pretty neat, check about it.

Yup, just started playing.
Do you even get what you're saying?

A Combo-Asura Monk is nothing half, nothing full. It's a Monk that can utilize Asura Strike for higher damage and levels faster through flee. It can't be used on WoE in any case, as it doesn't have enough Asura damage to take anything down that hase the most basic reduction cards in and it won't be able to put anything into VIT as it needs to keep AGI, INT, STR and DEX on a decent level.

What the f*** are you basing your Combo-Asura-Monk on? It's something you play for fun and it's absolutely PvM based.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Except it has casting time.

Sure, that makes any of my points invalid.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
More like way to make Alchemist do damage according to the requirements of their skills.

Like...the alchemist doesn't have Potion Pitcher and CP.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Yeah, 10 flee is such a difference they can't stay alive. Not like those agi classes without any skill that adds flee.

Then why remove it?

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Do some math before calling everything the new asura strike. Also, if soul link is implemented, its skills would need some modifications too.

Ahh, good, since these "Soul Link Modifications" weren't in your big list of Skill Changes. Did you come up with that just now? Way to prove my arguments right.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Except those problems are just your bad math skills.

Ah yes, that's probably the reason.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Nothing against it, the main problem with the vit-less builds is stun.

Again: Then why focus on low-vit. Everyone will require VIT, no guild will let you take part in WoE without VIT as you're basically just cannon fodder, in any case.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
You missed the point of that comment. It's not about enabling any kind of NPC in all cities, but the required NPC to have a suitable sprite and location according to the city, to make it look better integrated instead of a bunch of npcs with all you need in the middle of the city.

Alright, I missed the point in this case.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 10:14 AM
Anyway all these changes are just thing I got in mind, of course some will be wrong or unabalanced, would need some testing first :)

I tell you, get away from wanting to change RO, rather focus on improving it. The small things, the details.

You're dedicating all that work into your plans, but honestly, you can't really calculate the total outcome of most of these changes. Especially stuff like that magic damage crit etc. are probably more toxic than they do any good. Magic already does really efficient damage in this game, there is simply no need for a change like this.

Don't change things for the sake of change.

Quote from: snowblind on Sep 19, 2016, 10:51 AM
I'm talking about Pre-re. Ever since Renewal, players who choose pre-re get bored easily because it's old.
And they all fall into a downward spiral due to boredom and den dey die. Except Talon, which has lots of customs and lots of players. How come?
And obviously you do too. Why so hostile?

Well, as far as I am concerned the best visited server that currently exists is Sarah Server, which runs at EP5.
What's your point?

What I was saying is, most people playing Pre-RE don't even know all the content it has to offer. They don't need to do Biolabs or Amatsu Dungeon quests, as they have warpers to go there. There is a s*** of content in RO that simply has to be put in the correct light for people to be able to grasp and enjoy it.

But what everyone else is doing is simply throwing more stuff onto that big pile of unseen content.

A fresh meta is what the game needs. The game needs to change while still being relatively familiar. 2-2 onwards skills are flat out badly designed and revamping the stat system or equips isn't as good of an option. 2-2 resulted on more emphasis on more party setups. Does anyone want unnecessary emphasis on teamplay? It's not a matter of 'Oh, I devo you, now you won't die'. You get 'it's faster with bragi' and then soon after comes 'bragi makes this better, we don't like anything else'. I mean a group of people already require teamplay to get anything achieved.

On 'GGro' there were many people who enjoyed playing Knight because it actually had an impact. If you feel your character has an impact, the game becomes much more enjoyable. Suddenly a bunch of people had more fun than they'd had in RO in a long time. Practically nobody wants to play Blacksmith to repair or Alch to cp. Blacksmith is relegated to support? That person peaces out after 2 WoEs. People want to hit others and laugh at others. Stalker was a popular class, which ultimately ended up being thrown aside because of s*** server owners.

Quote from: DarkDevine on Sep 19, 2016, 11:10 AM
Well, as far as I am concerned the best visited server that currently exists is Sarah Server, which runs at EP5.
What's your point?

A quick search tells me they just launched this year, and apparently they have a history of opening and closing servers. So there is no reason to think it's going to be any different this time. My point is that servers without customs are short-lived. I really don't think it comes down to management in all cases. It's the gameplay that people care about.

Quote from: DarkDevine on Sep 19, 2016, 11:10 AM
What I was saying is, most people playing Pre-RE don't even know all the content it has to offer. They don't need to do Biolabs or Amatsu Dungeon quests, as they have warpers to go there. There is a s*** of content in RO that simply has to be put in the correct light for people to be able to grasp and enjoy it.

But what everyone else is doing is simply throwing more stuff onto that big pile of unseen content.

What's so special about Biolabs and Amatsu quests? I'm sure most people have done them at some point. And you said it yourself: most players don't even read quest texts. I agree that existing content should get more love. But I don't think it's enough. There are so many dungeons that never get visited, but in the end they all have very similar mobs which makes them uninteresting in the long term.

Quote from: Chojiro on Sep 19, 2016, 11:38 AM
A fresh meta is what the game needs. The game needs to change while still being relatively familiar.

Agreed. But it seems impossible to properly advertise this and gain interest.

Now I find you are just excusing yourself with bad arguments, let's see:

- There would be a process of testing, this is just a draft. Things can change, things can get fixed if it's bad. Gravity did it already multiple times, nobody is perfect.

QuoteSo, let me correct my point then. You're shifting frustration from casual players to non-casuals. The first group has it easier than before while the latter has it harder than before. Now answer me this: Where is this reducing the gap between casuals and non-casuals? It's simply shifting it to a later point in the game.

No. Refinement will be harder, but getting equipment will be easier, in the end it's just the same level of frustration.

It reduces the gap because the benefit of advantage of refining is not in the same level as equipment vs naked.

QuoteThis wasn't about what kind of players you'd prefer on your server, this was about reality. Sure, having your main language to english is the way to go, but what other kind of focus would you want to have? Most servers enforce english already.

As for servers like Sarah Server, they have proxies for most regions in this world that actually work really well. You don't feel that it's a phillipine hoster.

What I want to tell you is: Don't state the obvious. Especially not if it sounds racist. Asian players have the same worth as american or european ones.

You are the one that wanna make it sound racist. Proxies are not godlike solutions and it's my preference to catter to a western community, just respect it?

QuoteRO knows no "low-level cards". There are cards of high-level monsters that suck balls and cards of low-level monsters that you wear at higher levels just as well.

The thing with your 30 thara frog cards is simply that a Thara Frog card won't be worth s***. On a real low-rate, you can be happy if you dropped a card a second time as you can sell it for high prices and make a fortune. This has a really positive impact on economy, as it's rewarding for players to find a card at all and you have a zeny sink for players that have too much money.

With low level card I mean a card dropped by a low level monster. Expensive cards it not what I would call good economy, it increases the gap between old players and newcomers. A zeny sink for players with too much money is useless, it just moves the money from one player to another player.

A good economy is one where goods are abundant and accesible by the majority.

QuoteYou don't call it auto-event, but in essence, it is one.

Then awakening potion is an auto-event too.

QuoteAgain: Don't state the obvious. It's simply nothing special.

I never said it was something special, you just need something to bash, I guess.

QuoteBecause...these items...come from nowhere? You still have to farm these items. You farm them faster, but they also break faster. Moving the problem, not solving it.

Ehm... that's the aim? I wanna make it easier to get equipment but not high refinement.

QuoteI did, what was I supposed to see?

I'll quote it for you, I guess:

These changes are meant to be the opposite of current, classic servers focused on a "pure" episode 8.2 environment.

Sarah has 8.2 mechanics. If you can't guess, I hate those mechanics.

QuoteWrite: "Dumbing it down".

Write: Monsters from recent episodes need to make less damage and be fewer in numbers because their stats and their spawn were designed for transceded characters capability.

Quoteas they run around and Esma the s*** ouf of stuff instead of doing what they are supposed to do.

That's exactly the problem of the current meta, characters have no variety because people think "they should do what they are supposed to do".

I wanna make players do whatever they want with their characters, and perform well with it. Thanks for the clear example.

QuoteWhat's more important is: Remove Trap is already there.

You just badly assumed the reason for moving traps. Maybe you didn't played much Hunter, but the focus of this change is to make Hunters more diverse offensively, to being able to attack with traps in woe, not to be easier to remove them. In fact I think I would make it so only the owner of the trap can move it - in the process, spring trap would have a bigger impact.

Quote
Tell me another thing: Why?
What exactly is the advantage of this, what exactly would that change, why is it needed and what makes you so sure that you thought of every little side-effect it has?

Because I thought it would be fun to have something unexpected. Or, maybe some new builds would be developed, like crit-mage. I just wanna see weird s***.

QuoteWhich combo monk spams keys until the combos come out? What sense would be there in that?
Exactly that is the important thing on a combo monk, having the ability to time your skills correctly to actually get your full combo out which makes the difference in playing it.

Until recently there was a bug in emulators where the delay of the triple attack was so short it was impossible to make quadruple work unless spamming it.

I don't see any ability on pushing two keys after the triple attack effect appears. My change gives more variety, don't agree with me if you don't like it, and also fixes a problem: sometimes the triple attack never happens.

QuoteAsura [...]

What the f*** are you basing your Combo-Asura-Monk on? It's something you play for fun and it's absolutely PvM based.

That's exactly the purpose of these changes: Making what is supposed to be only for PVM (like combo monks) good for other areas.

Also, combo-asura has no cast, so dex doesn't need to be as high as for a Spirit Monk. Sure, the damage might not be as high as a Asura caster, but then you have dealt damage with combos too.

QuoteSure, that makes any of my points invalid.

In fact it does.

QuoteLike...the alchemist doesn't have Potion Pitcher and CP.

I didn't new Potion Pitcher and CP do damage.

QuoteThen why remove it?

Because, why is it upgraded for second jobs? Also, pvp.

QuoteAhh, good, since these "Soul Link Modifications" weren't in your big list of Skill Changes. Did you come up with that just now? Way to prove my arguments right.

Wow, so butthurt. Well:
Further updates with new content like the already mentioned for the environment, but also offer some new classes like Soul Link or Ninja - btw, I plan on making the Soul Linker also a PVP/WoE offensive attacker, but of course, changing mechanics so it's not overpowered for 2-2 classes.
It's not on the list, as no skill of Soul Linker is, because that would be reviewed later if I ever decide to include Soul Linker in the game.

QuoteAh yes, that's probably the reason.

When you just exaggerate results, yes.

Quote
Again: Then why focus on low-vit. Everyone will require VIT, no guild will let you take part in WoE without VIT as you're basically just cannon fodder, in any case.

Everyone will require vit, just not as much as currently because overpowered stun skills are being nerfed.

QuoteI tell you, get away from wanting to change RO, rather focus on improving it. The small things, the details.

You're dedicating all that work into your plans, but honestly, you can't really calculate the total outcome of most of these changes. Especially stuff like that magic damage crit etc. are probably more toxic than they do any good. Magic already does really efficient damage in this game, there is simply no need for a change like this.

Don't change things for the sake of change.

Again, condescending non-sense. I change things for the sake of making the game more enjoyable.

You may not hatin', but you surelly try too hard to missrepresent statements to talk highly and trying to humilliate with ignorance. Just drop it, you are not omniscient either.

--------------------------------------

And Chojiro gets the point of it all. Noone could have said it better.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 19, 2016, 12:23 PM
I just wanna see weird s***.

Sounds like a solid plan.

It doesn't matter as we simply have different views on it, there won't be a point where you'd agree with me or vice versa.

Do your thing and have a look at the outcome.

Quote from: DarkDevine on Sep 19, 2016, 05:00 PM
Do your thing and have a look at the outcome.

If I ever have the chance.

Always the same debate

What makes people play a Ragnarok server is the Essence of RO. What you have to change isn't the game itself, it's the player retention mechanics that make players stay on your server.
Changing the essence of RO: i.e the skills, the items, the monsters, is just gonna leave you with a 20 people server.

Quote from: Zinnia on Sep 24, 2016, 01:29 PM
Always the same debate

What makes people play a Ragnarok server is the Essence of RO. What you have to change isn't the game itself, it's the player retention mechanics that make players stay on your server.
Changing the essence of RO: i.e the skills, the items, the monsters, is just gonna leave you with a 20 people server.

Player retention mechanics. Awesome. And how do you plan to achieve that? Also, your statement is proven wrong by servers like talonro, as well as some long-loved highrates (blackoutRO?)

Quote from: Zinnia on Sep 24, 2016, 01:29 PM
Always the same debate

What makes people play a Ragnarok server is the Essence of RO. What you have to change isn't the game itself, it's the player retention mechanics that make players stay on your server.
Changing the essence of RO: i.e the skills, the items, the monsters, is just gonna leave you with a 20 people server.

There's no point in opening a ro server with the same settings as everyone else, this is not for the sake of successfulness.

The game itself needs some changes to make it feel fresh and unknown again, without obvious abominations like Renewal.

You can shift the meta and offer build diversity, XP map diversity, a challenging environment, without changing all of the skills mechanics and items, like blinzer did.

RO has a s*** load of content to use, just dig into this, filter out what's not to take, tweak a little what needs to be tweaked, thats enough.

I definitely agree this game needs customs, I'm not against them, I'm just saying the community doesn't want/like arbitrary customs. Its a paradox. They get bored of servers looking all the same but they're reticent of trying out something new. It's our job to fairly adjust the game to their needs and explain them why it's good.

I'll be posting a video about my server soon, it is us playing the server pre-launch (note this is just at around 20-30% done), you guys be the judge.

What me and my team did:

• Left skills alone for the most part
• Left items alone for the most part
• Added a custom quest system, amplifying partying
• Added Nightmare Dungeons, amplifying partying again - This is not the same as Nightmare Dungeons in RO
• Added some fun mechanics for MVP - BGM change upon boss encounter,defeat,death etc

More information here: Click me~ (https://www.midgard-community.com/forums/topic/910-midi-city-project-ro-music-and-anime-into-one/)

I also updated the main topic, so the updates will be at the bottom part of the first post for everyone's convenience. Most of the people here will be like "meh from the look of the desc it looks bad", well, I'd like to invite you to try it out. Just throwing this here since people are still saying this and that, might as well showcase what me and my team have done so far.

Quote from: Zinnia on Sep 24, 2016, 06:29 PM

Sure thing, I also dislike Blinzer's modifications.

The purpose of my changes are:
- Force a change in the meta for WoE and PVP: Powering up some skills and nerfing a bit others so more builds are useful. Very small changes so they don't behave differently.
- Lease farming items and equipment, for a more casual audience.
- Focus on grinding for better leveling instead of leveling for better grinding.
- Not soloable bosses (better MVP scene) and small changes on the PVM side (different monsters/locations/new dungeons) so there's something to discover.

Quote from: Suspension on Sep 26, 2016, 05:40 AM
Sure thing, I also dislike Blinzer's modifications.

The purpose of my changes are:
- Force a change in the meta for WoE and PVP: Powering up some skills and nerfing a bit others so more builds are useful. Very small changes so they don't behave differently.
- Lease farming items and equipment, for a more casual audience.
- Focus on grinding for better leveling instead of leveling for better grinding.
- Not soloable bosses (better MVP scene) and small changes on the PVM side (different monsters/locations/new dungeons) so there's something to discover.

Well,what you have pointed above is what we are trying to achieve at MIDI. We are looking for ways to make farming/grinding/leveling more fun and easier for everyone.

Quote from: Cyan Hijirikawa on Sep 26, 2016, 02:54 PM
Well,what you have pointed above is what we are trying to achieve at MIDI. We are looking for ways to make farming/grinding/leveling more fun and easier for everyone.

Not even close. You want to mix anime content, but I don't see any skill balancing, but a bunch of events and additional classes (which goes against the first point: "very small changes"). I'm not against your project, but it's surely not related at all with what I want to modify about the game. Maybe same objetives, but entirely different aproach.

Please no more advertising.

The reason why there's no skill balancing as of yet is because we are focusing on adding features that expand gameplay. Those skill balancing will come into play in PVP or WoE which isn't what the project is focusing right now, when the time comes, it will be worked on, but for now we would like to deliver a more fun leveling/grinding environment.

If it came out like I was advertising, I do apologize, it was not my intent.

Always couldn't understand why exp rates are higher than drop.

While I like many of TS ideas, I fail to see how buffing/nerfing few skills adds to builds variety. Bowling Bash 500x2 = all knights on server are BB, no variety. Without asura spam vit-builds will live until out of pots. Nothing will outdamage 15 pots per second.

All woe rogues will be strippers anyway, useless against chem protection. Dancers with weak dazzler will have little to do at woe.

Pretty much all builds will be same.

I think it would be easier to fiddle with WOE reduction numbers and make ALL UNDERUSED skills more viable. This would help to balance damage at woe, without screwing arena and PVE.

I'm not pulling this from my butt, thought about rebalancing skills for years. Here are some examples of what I see as refreshed pretrans mechanics
******************************************

remove woe damage reduction except for magic and asura

status cards stacks directly

2sec delay of effect for status cureing pots. 2sec delay of removing confusion effect with damage.

poison status = -50% def, -30%mdef, faster HP drain - 3% per second.

110 vit for poison and 105 for curse immunity.

Refinement adds matk and mdef.

ChemProtection - more accessible consumables, doesn't block breaking and strip, decrease chance and duration of strip to 1/3, breaking - to 1/2
twilight pharmacy for all pots, higher damage for bombs

mammonite 700-800%, 3% chance to break target's weapon and armor with weapon perfection on, hammerfall works without weapon with halved chance, works on LP

SB 10lv does dex/10*150%, pure STR/DEX will be glass cannon
GT - 150%+50%*lv, sp consumption = 0.5sp+lv*1.5sp, lv is selectable.

LoV does 2x and HD - 3x damage of their normal, fireball 300%matk same distance as bolts

BB - 2x300%, pierce 600% on players

ArrowShower - 300%

GC works on LP, 3 waves on all targets, shield boom has element of weapon 350%, holy cross 600%

Whistle atk+10%, siegfried/drum/nibel affects all in area, not only party, ugly dance 3x, humming matk+10%

backstab 1000%, not spammable, any direction, raid 5x5, strip 15% - lowest chance, 5% - with chemprotection

autocast - max level of bolts 30% chance

2sec delay of effect for status curing pots. 2sec delay of removing confusion effect with damage.
poison status - -50% def, -30%mdef, faster HP drain - 3% per second.

110 vit for poison and 105 for curse immunity.

guild skills - separate cooldowns 10min, useful buffs.
*****************************************************

Quote from: Atis on Sep 26, 2016, 09:13 PM
While I like many of TS ideas, I fail to see how buffing/nerfing few skills adds to builds variety. Bowling Bash 500x2 = all knights on server are BB, no variety. Without asura spam vit-builds will live until out of pots. Nothing will outdamage 15 pots per second.

All woe rogues will be strippers anyway, useless against chem protection. Dancers with weak dazzler will have little to do at woe.

Well, here are some arguments for these changes:
For woe all melee skills are buffed for 5% more, for the risk of getting closer to the enemy. Also, I would set the pot spam limit to human limits (6,67 per second).
BowlingBash: I have seen many many knights at woe with spear builds even with this kind of Bowling Bash, but maybe you're right and it needs a bit of nerf.
Every damage dealer will be needed after asura is nerfed, so Rogues included, also the change in backstab allows it to be spammed (which is quite powerful).
Vit builds will have occult impaction and ice pick as enemies, as well as the modified skills from alchemist.
Dazzler change doesn't make Dancer useless, just prevents a Dancer stunning everyone on screen with no risk. The skill would have the same effect in a 7x7 area and outside it the chance would be lower. In addition, there are more uses for Dancers, like Slow Grace and ensemble skills.

5% changes nothing. 15 pots per second is rather normal for human, woe damage is built around fast potting. With 6 per second passing wizards will be nearly impossible. Only fat tanks will get to melee line so most people will play tanks in attack, wizards in def. Or int/dex rogues with plagiarized SG10/MS10. Why invent wheel when balance was already created then borked with woe reduction? Without asura melee will need to focus fire every tank.

You can easily imagine how your new skills work by counting extra damage as extra people. 5 new sins will damage like 6 old - not big difference, few % more for mammonite - no big difference, etc. Only one overbuffed class is alchemist and you could easily get same result by removing woe reduction. With new bombs alchemist will be too strong on arena.

Dazzler with 7x7  effective area is pretty much melee distance, needs tanking, so every dazzler dancer is vit/str - again, ruined build variety. Slow grace was already used to fullest, using it more wont do any good, ensemble skills are useless except loki, they work only for party ad you can move with them. Any victory hungry guildmaster will ditch nibelung duo and ask them to play wizards.

Asura works only with combo - all monk go combo - ruined build variety.

What is your solution for chem protection travesty? Got chem protection - strippers suck, no chem protection - strippers dominate, no middle ground.

Why would you have icepick on server? It makes any other empbreking weapon obsolete: why use katars, or dual daggers, or 2hand quicken with sword when you can keep shield and use icepick?
*****************

You still trying to fix skills one by one, that lefts most of them as bad as they were. Monks will still asura, just via combo instead of direct cast. FO will stay garbage, OI will be used only during asura downtime. Problem is not asura itself it just other skills couldnt do the job. Without woe reduction and minor buffs to UNPOPULAR  skills they would do.

15 per second is abnormally high. Try a key press counter and check it for yourself.

The current balance (the current meta) has no variety, that's why I want to re-invent the wheel with these changes.

It's not about the difference in numbers, but the difference in classes proportion. New guild rosters would be made. Removing woe damage caps is a no-no, a character receives damage and status changes from various points, without these damage caps it would be hard to play. An emperium room would be impossible to enter, you would insta-drop in the cell.

Dazzler and melee distance, that's intended. You can still use dazzler far away, but if you want a higher chance you'll need to take a bit of a risk - otherwise this skill is just overpowered. Even with your supposed focus on vit and str it would be even more variety, as Slow Grace needs different stats.

No, Asura doesn't work only with combo. What I meant is that the asura-combo would still require the full combo (instead of directly ranging thrust -> asura).

Icepick: Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers and is part of the game. Emperium mob was modified in IRO for a lower defense, there are multiple solutions for that.

Chem/Strips: That's not how that works. You can't be sure you'll have an alchemist 100% focused on protecting everybody's gears. If an alchemist is able to do so, then his guild deserves that inmunity to strip.

The problem is Asura does the job way easier than other skills, not the other way around. FO and OI are useful as non-trans jobs have less HP/Gears. FO can even one shot KO some classes under some circunstances.

I guess you consider skills useless unless they can 1 hit KO or do massive amounts of damage to the target independently of defense or vitality, but that's not how I conceive this game.

QuoteI guess you consider skills useless unless they can 1 hit KO or do massive amounts of damage to the target independently of defense or vitality, but that's not how I conceive this game.

I guess you are fast to dismiss any argument you cant answer. I already wrote clearly - I count skills that do the job, like killing woe-character without having 10+ people focusing 1 guy. As a woe rogue I easily mastela-tanked 3 BS, 1 knight and wizard, all well equipped and high level, focusing me. As a knight I tanked like 10 people with NPC pots only. No autopotting was used. So their damaging skills didnt do the job. Its that simple.

Quote15 per second is abnormally high. Try a key press counter and check it for yourself.

Gimme link to whatever counter you consider reliable.

QuoteThe current balance (the current meta) has no variety, that's why I want to re-invent the wheel with these changes.

It wont have variety either, just people spamming their main skill untill enemy is out of pots, instead of asura.

QuoteIt's not about the difference in numbers, but the difference in classes proportion. New guild rosters would be made. Removing woe damage caps is a no-no, a character receives damage and status changes from various points, without these damage caps it would be hard to play. An emperium room would be impossible to enter, you would insta-drop in the cell.

Easiest part to debunk. Trans classes had much higher damage output yet same potting speed. Before WOE2 was implemented, trans classes were outpotting woe1 precasts until every guild got too much AD creos and EDP GT sinxes. Therefore, typical 2-2 wizards precast has hard time outdamaging normal potting.

QuoteDazzler and melee distance, that's intended. You can still use dazzler far away, but if you want a higher chance you'll need to take a bit of a risk - otherwise this skill is just overpowered. Even with your supposed focus on vit and str it would be even more variety, as Slow Grace needs different stats.

Dancers already got too few skills to use, you gonna force them into 1 skill builds. Most would just go vit str and use skightky weaker SlowGrace. No variety.

QuoteNo, Asura doesn't work only with combo. What I meant is that the asura-combo would still require the full combo (instead of directly ranging thrust -> asura).

It wasnt clear from your pastebin but what i said holds anyway.

QuoteIcepick: Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers and is part of the game. Emperium mob was modified in IRO for a lower defense, there are multiple solutions for that.

You didnt say you gonna use non-classic emp. Emp was modified with trans/3rd jobs in mind. How every empbreaker using same weapon is interesting. Part of game is not argument, you are talking about modifiying things that are part of game.

QuoteChem/Strips: That's not how that works. You can't be sure you'll have an alchemist 100% focused on protecting everybody's gears. If an alchemist is able to do so, then his guild deserves that inmunity to strip.

So basically who grinds more chem protects wins. Grind over skill - great idea. Oh and BTW, all high tier woe guild were fully chem protected so all rogues changed jobs. But it seems ok for you when whole class become useless. No, slightly buffed backstab wont help, try calculating its' DPS and compare with knight spamming Bash with his eyes closed.

QuoteFO can even one shot KO some classes under some circunstances.

Use pvp calculator, srsly. WOE reduction, 40% demihuman reduction, 30 def = 2800 damage from FO with 120str 90dex monk. 1vit hunter with matyr shoes has over 5k HP. OHKO with FO worked before woe reduction or against naked low-level noobs. Normal woe hunter will tank FO even with LexAeterna.

QuoteThe problem is Asura does the job way easier than other skills, not the other way around.

No, its only melee skill that does job. Non-ranked potion heals 100vit woe character for roughly 1100hp, even with retarded 6.67 pots per second (I can probably do that much with my foot). With OI-dance fixed you'll need 8 monks to outdamage that potting with OI. 5 monks with bragi. Great replacement for asura.

*****************************

How much people you think would even touch server with 6.67 pots per second restriction? How much of them would be woe players?

Everybody will use their main skill - Okay, at least their main skill will not be predefined by class.

I don't have any link for an online key press counter.

Woe1 precasts being outputted - That's why I'm boosting skills for pvp/pvm and woe. Cherrypicking woe caps is just a bad aproach.

Dancers, I don't agree, I'm actually forcing more skills and not rely only on dazzler.

Chems, grinding would be easier, so obviously "more chem items" is not the problem. Without full chemical protection is harder to protect every part of the equipment. It's hard to maintain chemical protection for an entire guild 100% of the time even when people has died and returned to the map.

QuoteYou didnt say you gonna use non-classic emp. Emp was modified with trans/3rd jobs in mind. How every empbreaker using same weapon is interesting. Part of game is not argument, you are talking about modifiying things that are part of game.

You are just mixing things that end in non sense. It's part of the game, so I'm going to use it. Not hard to understand.

QuoteUse pvp calculator, srsly. WOE reduction, 40% demihuman reduction, 30 def = 2800 damage from FO with 120str 90dex monk. 1vit hunter with matyr shoes has over 5k HP. OHKO with FO worked before woe reduction or against naked low-level noobs. Normal woe hunter will tank FO even with LexAeterna.

Hit the hunter with no shield equipped and with element advantage.

QuoteNo, its only melee skill that does job. Non-ranked potion heals 100vit woe character for roughly 1100hp, even with retarded 6.67 pots per second (I can probably do that much with my foot). With OI-dance fixed you'll need 8 monks to outdamage that potting with OI. 5 monks with bragi. Great replacement for asura.

It's woe, not pvp. Don't expect to kill a vit class alone, that's the point of vit.

If I wanted to just buff skills/damage to compete with trans skills, then I would end up with another Renewal. I'm aiming to boost character performance, not only by quantity.

In your latest messages you have been more unrespectful and impolite, and your arguments have degraded to words such as "retarded", fake numbers and the precious logic of "that wont work because I don't like it". I invite you to leave this thread if my changes cause you such anger.

someone just needs to make all the useless skills viable(even if its just for pvm...), add a couple custom jobs(youtube) the IMO looks pretty simple if your familiar with the scripts, and just keep the episode before all that mora enchanting s***... throw in some cash sinks and you got yourself a quality server

Skill will be predefined even more, dancers will specialize around less skills for example, instead of dazzler and slow grace, we'll have dazzler or slowgrace.

If you dont have press counter, how did you get 6.67 number?

All i could find was https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/2419343/
Got 111 per 10 second but it's shaky spacebar and I'm rusty. After few woes I should do more with my glorious F3 key. And ofc I'm not fastest gamer in RO crowd, there are always people who can do much more.

Chem protection is not hard, everybody and his dog is in discord now, just as for chems. It was not a problem for decent guild before, only consumables were. So it was kinda streamlined = grind enough and enemy strippers are screwed. Do not grind enough and enemy strippers screw you. Only 2 outcomes, no variety. With what I suggested strippers always have work to do but with chems their effectiveness is very limited.

QuoteIt's part of the game, so I'm going to use it. Not hard to understand.

Trans and 3rd jobs are also part of the game. Old skills are part of the game. It's not an valid reason. You change things for variety yet keep icepick that kills variety. How does this make sense?

QuoteHit the hunter with no shield equipped and with element advantage.

What element advantage? He won't wear Druid with no shield and barely even remove shield when you are close enough to FO him. If FO can kill only shieldless 1vit hunter without thara it's not worth using, anybody can kill 1vit hunter. 70vit hunter will survive aspersio FO on ED without thara. Only way to justify using FO is make it effective against more targets. No point to have skill that requires 5 spheres, long time to cast and realistically kill only naked lowlevels.

QuoteIt's woe, not pvp. Don't expect to kill a vit class alone, that's the point of vit.

On woe all classes except wizard are vit. And wizards are protected by support classes.

QuoteIf I wanted to just buff skills/damage to compete with trans skills, then I would end up with another Renewal. I'm aiming to boost character performance, not only by quantity.

But you are not boosting any performance. You are just removing asura and dazzler spam, all other changes are too small to affect meta. So you get 2 crowds exchanging punches until one is out of pots or 30 knights with icepicks an chemprotects  from attackers guild get emp broken.

QuoteIn your latest messages you have been more unrespectful and impolite, and your arguments have degraded to words such as "retarded",

If you want respect then dont go personal, putting words in my mouth, calling my numbers fake, and trying to lower my logic to "that wont work because I don't like it" when you literally use arguments like "Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers".

You brought random list of changes that dont hold any test in calc, test server or reality check and are throwing mud at anyone who points at that. You refuse to answer with properly calculated arguments and instead respond on level "it will work because MAGIC" instead.

All in all, you are alone with your idea and neither can defend it in proper argument nor attract enough sympathy to take your word on it. Have fun with your dream server that can't exist even in forum hivemind.

Sadly, "because I say so" is not a proper argument either, which is the argument you have used against my word (with an additional amount of rudeness). Next time, backup your arguments with examples or numbers instead of just denying sentences if you are going to show your anger.

I only reply with "mud" to impolite people like you, which don't know how to backup their arguments except with insults. Sadly for you, I have already received PMs from people interested in these ideas and willing to help.

I suggest you apply for world fastest key presser in the world guiness records, that's even more magic. Have fun!

Aaaaand no quotes of me actually saying something along the line of  "because I say so", no answer to numbers I brought, selective blindness to any argument you cant's answer (pretty much any argument at all).

Sadly for me, you gonna make great server with all 1,5 people who sent you PM. No doubt this server will have long and prosperous life with huge population, hailing your superb rebalancing. And if you won't you'll come here and honestly admit your failure, no doubt about that.

It's tiring replying to you when you just deny sentences as an argument, there's no point in arguing with somebody that doesn't backup his arguments and only knows insulting when something doesn't look fine for him. I was actually considering increasing woe caps, but your rudeness is disgusting.

But, if you insist, this will be the last time I prove your arguments are invalid:

QuoteTrans and 3rd jobs are also part of the game. Old skills are part of the game. It's not an valid reason. You change things for variety yet keep icepick that kills variety. How does this make sense?

Because you say so. Except I already said in the first post that I'll use a classic environment, 99/50 because it's easier to perform changes. Another case of "I just want to offend you no matter what"

QuoteWhat element advantage? He won't wear Druid with no shield and barely even remove shield when you are close enough to FO him. If FO can kill only shieldless 1vit hunter without thara it's not worth using, anybody can kill 1vit hunter. 70vit hunter will survive aspersio FO on ED without thara. Only way to justify using FO is make it effective against more targets. No point to have skill that requires 5 spheres, long time to cast and realistically kill only naked lowlevels.

Because you say so. Obviously, there will never be a case when, in the middle of a GVG you end up getting hit without shield, when your main weapon is a bow. Never .

QuoteOn woe all classes except wizard are vit. And wizards are protected by support classes.

The main reason people has high vit is stun. I'm nerfing the main skill that induces stun. More people will be able to focus on damage rather than anti-stun builds.

QuoteBut you are not boosting any performance. You are just removing asura and dazzler spamall other changes are too small to affect meta. So you get 2 crowds exchanging punches until one is out of pots or 30 knights with icepicks an chemprotects  from attackers guild get emp broken.

Removing limitations like Backstab, combos, Grand cross over LP and venom splasher (and even more that I have in mind but I'm not sure if it's a bit OP) is not improving performance without boosting formulas. Because you say so.

Ice pick will have to be switched and used accordingly to the target, because there will be more  people with mid(or even low) vit due to the already mentioned changes, and the attack weapon is low, with no slots (by default) and also applies to PVM and future dungeon updates. That's why it will bring more variety, but of course, it will not work that way because you say so.

QuoteIf you want respect then dont go personal, putting words in my mouth, calling my numbers fake, and trying to lower my logic to "that wont work because I don't like it" when you literally use arguments like "Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers".

You start insulting, calling things "retarded", being obviously impolite and it's my fault going personal. Great logic, Mr. easy 15 pots per second.

Don't expect me replying again if you keep acting like an immature kid. And please, don't hit reply if you only want to mindlessly argue to show your Internet dominance.