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Author Topic: A reposted idea, rate my point of view  (Read 7491 times)

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Offline Suspension

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #30 on: Sep 26, 2016, 05:40 AM »

Sure thing, I also dislike Blinzer's modifications.

The purpose of my changes are:
- Force a change in the meta for WoE and PVP: Powering up some skills and nerfing a bit others so more builds are useful. Very small changes so they don't behave differently.
- Lease farming items and equipment, for a more casual audience.
- Focus on grinding for better leveling instead of leveling for better grinding.
- Not soloable bosses (better MVP scene) and small changes on the PVM side (different monsters/locations/new dungeons) so there's something to discover.
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.

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Offline Cyan Hijirikawa

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #31 on: Sep 26, 2016, 02:54 PM »
Sure thing, I also dislike Blinzer's modifications.

The purpose of my changes are:
- Force a change in the meta for WoE and PVP: Powering up some skills and nerfing a bit others so more builds are useful. Very small changes so they don't behave differently.
- Lease farming items and equipment, for a more casual audience.
- Focus on grinding for better leveling instead of leveling for better grinding.
- Not soloable bosses (better MVP scene) and small changes on the PVM side (different monsters/locations/new dungeons) so there's something to discover.

Well,what you have pointed above is what we are trying to achieve at MIDI. We are looking for ways to make farming/grinding/leveling more fun and easier for everyone.

Offline Suspension

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #32 on: Sep 26, 2016, 03:31 PM »
Well,what you have pointed above is what we are trying to achieve at MIDI. We are looking for ways to make farming/grinding/leveling more fun and easier for everyone.

Not even close. You want to mix anime content, but I don't see any skill balancing, but a bunch of events and additional classes (which goes against the first point: "very small changes"). I'm not against your project, but it's surely not related at all with what I want to modify about the game. Maybe same objetives, but entirely different aproach.

Please no more advertising.
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.

Offline Cyan Hijirikawa

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #33 on: Sep 26, 2016, 04:26 PM »
The reason why there's no skill balancing as of yet is because we are focusing on adding features that expand gameplay. Those skill balancing will come into play in PVP or WoE which isn't what the project is focusing right now, when the time comes, it will be worked on, but for now we would like to deliver a more fun leveling/grinding environment.

If it came out like I was advertising, I do apologize, it was not my intent.

Offline Atis

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #34 on: Sep 26, 2016, 09:13 PM »
Always couldn't understand why exp rates are higher than drop.

While I like many of TS ideas, I fail to see how buffing/nerfing few skills adds to builds variety. Bowling Bash 500x2 = all knights on server are BB, no variety. Without asura spam vit-builds will live until out of pots. Nothing will outdamage 15 pots per second.

All woe rogues will be strippers anyway, useless against chem protection. Dancers with weak dazzler will have little to do at woe.

Pretty much all builds will be same.

I think it would be easier to fiddle with WOE reduction numbers and make ALL UNDERUSED skills more viable. This would help to balance damage at woe, without screwing arena and PVE.

I'm not pulling this from my butt, thought about rebalancing skills for years. Here are some examples of what I see as refreshed pretrans mechanics
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remove woe damage reduction except for magic and asura

status cards stacks directly

2sec delay of effect for status cureing pots. 2sec delay of removing confusion effect with damage.

poison status = -50% def, -30%mdef, faster HP drain - 3% per second.

110 vit for poison and 105 for curse immunity.

Refinement adds matk and mdef.

ChemProtection - more accessible consumables, doesn't block breaking and strip, decrease chance and duration of strip to 1/3, breaking - to 1/2
twilight pharmacy for all pots, higher damage for bombs

mammonite 700-800%, 3% chance to break target's weapon and armor with weapon perfection on, hammerfall works without weapon with halved chance, works on LP

SB 10lv does dex/10*150%, pure STR/DEX will be glass cannon
GT - 150%+50%*lv, sp consumption = 0.5sp+lv*1.5sp, lv is selectable.

LoV does 2x and HD - 3x damage of their normal, fireball 300%matk same distance as bolts

BB - 2x300%, pierce 600% on players

ArrowShower - 300%

GC works on LP, 3 waves on all targets, shield boom has element of weapon 350%, holy cross 600%

Whistle atk+10%, siegfried/drum/nibel affects all in area, not only party, ugly dance 3x, humming matk+10%

backstab 1000%, not spammable, any direction, raid 5x5, strip 15% - lowest chance, 5% - with chemprotection

autocast - max level of bolts 30% chance

2sec delay of effect for status curing pots. 2sec delay of removing confusion effect with damage.
poison status - -50% def, -30%mdef, faster HP drain - 3% per second.

110 vit for poison and 105 for curse immunity.

guild skills - separate cooldowns 10min, useful buffs.
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Offline Suspension

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #35 on: Sep 27, 2016, 02:23 AM »
While I like many of TS ideas, I fail to see how buffing/nerfing few skills adds to builds variety. Bowling Bash 500x2 = all knights on server are BB, no variety. Without asura spam vit-builds will live until out of pots. Nothing will outdamage 15 pots per second.

All woe rogues will be strippers anyway, useless against chem protection. Dancers with weak dazzler will have little to do at woe.
Well, here are some arguments for these changes:
For woe all melee skills are buffed for 5% more, for the risk of getting closer to the enemy. Also, I would set the pot spam limit to human limits (6,67 per second).
BowlingBash: I have seen many many knights at woe with spear builds even with this kind of Bowling Bash, but maybe you're right and it needs a bit of nerf.
Every damage dealer will be needed after asura is nerfed, so Rogues included, also the change in backstab allows it to be spammed (which is quite powerful).
Vit builds will have occult impaction and ice pick as enemies, as well as the modified skills from alchemist.
Dazzler change doesn't make Dancer useless, just prevents a Dancer stunning everyone on screen with no risk. The skill would have the same effect in a 7x7 area and outside it the chance would be lower. In addition, there are more uses for Dancers, like Slow Grace and ensemble skills.
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.

Offline Atis

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #36 on: Sep 27, 2016, 04:52 AM »
5% changes nothing. 15 pots per second is rather normal for human, woe damage is built around fast potting. With 6 per second passing wizards will be nearly impossible. Only fat tanks will get to melee line so most people will play tanks in attack, wizards in def. Or int/dex rogues with plagiarized SG10/MS10. Why invent wheel when balance was already created then borked with woe reduction? Without asura melee will need to focus fire every tank.

You can easily imagine how your new skills work by counting extra damage as extra people. 5 new sins will damage like 6 old - not big difference, few % more for mammonite - no big difference, etc. Only one overbuffed class is alchemist and you could easily get same result by removing woe reduction. With new bombs alchemist will be too strong on arena.

Dazzler with 7x7  effective area is pretty much melee distance, needs tanking, so every dazzler dancer is vit/str - again, ruined build variety. Slow grace was already used to fullest, using it more wont do any good, ensemble skills are useless except loki, they work only for party ad you can move with them. Any victory hungry guildmaster will ditch nibelung duo and ask them to play wizards.

Asura works only with combo - all monk go combo - ruined build variety.

What is your solution for chem protection travesty? Got chem protection - strippers suck, no chem protection - strippers dominate, no middle ground.

Why would you have icepick on server? It makes any other empbreking weapon obsolete: why use katars, or dual daggers, or 2hand quicken with sword when you can keep shield and use icepick?
*****************

You still trying to fix skills one by one, that lefts most of them as bad as they were. Monks will still asura, just via combo instead of direct cast. FO will stay garbage, OI will be used only during asura downtime. Problem is not asura itself it just other skills couldnt do the job. Without woe reduction and minor buffs to UNPOPULAR  skills they would do.

Offline Suspension

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #37 on: Sep 27, 2016, 05:55 AM »
15 per second is abnormally high. Try a key press counter and check it for yourself.

The current balance (the current meta) has no variety, that's why I want to re-invent the wheel with these changes.

It's not about the difference in numbers, but the difference in classes proportion. New guild rosters would be made. Removing woe damage caps is a no-no, a character receives damage and status changes from various points, without these damage caps it would be hard to play. An emperium room would be impossible to enter, you would insta-drop in the cell.

Dazzler and melee distance, that's intended. You can still use dazzler far away, but if you want a higher chance you'll need to take a bit of a risk - otherwise this skill is just overpowered. Even with your supposed focus on vit and str it would be even more variety, as Slow Grace needs different stats.

No, Asura doesn't work only with combo. What I meant is that the asura-combo would still require the full combo (instead of directly ranging thrust -> asura).

Icepick: Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers and is part of the game. Emperium mob was modified in IRO for a lower defense, there are multiple solutions for that.

Chem/Strips: That's not how that works. You can't be sure you'll have an alchemist 100% focused on protecting everybody's gears. If an alchemist is able to do so, then his guild deserves that inmunity to strip.

The problem is Asura does the job way easier than other skills, not the other way around. FO and OI are useful as non-trans jobs have less HP/Gears. FO can even one shot KO some classes under some circunstances.

I guess you consider skills useless unless they can 1 hit KO or do massive amounts of damage to the target independently of defense or vitality, but that's not how I conceive this game.
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.

Offline Atis

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #38 on: Sep 27, 2016, 06:58 AM »
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I guess you consider skills useless unless they can 1 hit KO or do massive amounts of damage to the target independently of defense or vitality, but that's not how I conceive this game.

I guess you are fast to dismiss any argument you cant answer. I already wrote clearly - I count skills that do the job, like killing woe-character without having 10+ people focusing 1 guy. As a woe rogue I easily mastela-tanked 3 BS, 1 knight and wizard, all well equipped and high level, focusing me. As a knight I tanked like 10 people with NPC pots only. No autopotting was used. So their damaging skills didnt do the job. Its that simple.

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15 per second is abnormally high. Try a key press counter and check it for yourself.
Gimme link to whatever counter you consider reliable.

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The current balance (the current meta) has no variety, that's why I want to re-invent the wheel with these changes.

It wont have variety either, just people spamming their main skill untill enemy is out of pots, instead of asura.

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It's not about the difference in numbers, but the difference in classes proportion. New guild rosters would be made. Removing woe damage caps is a no-no, a character receives damage and status changes from various points, without these damage caps it would be hard to play. An emperium room would be impossible to enter, you would insta-drop in the cell.
Easiest part to debunk. Trans classes had much higher damage output yet same potting speed. Before WOE2 was implemented, trans classes were outpotting woe1 precasts until every guild got too much AD creos and EDP GT sinxes. Therefore, typical 2-2 wizards precast has hard time outdamaging normal potting.

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Dazzler and melee distance, that's intended. You can still use dazzler far away, but if you want a higher chance you'll need to take a bit of a risk - otherwise this skill is just overpowered. Even with your supposed focus on vit and str it would be even more variety, as Slow Grace needs different stats.
Dancers already got too few skills to use, you gonna force them into 1 skill builds. Most would just go vit str and use skightky weaker SlowGrace. No variety.

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No, Asura doesn't work only with combo. What I meant is that the asura-combo would still require the full combo (instead of directly ranging thrust -> asura).

It wasnt clear from your pastebin but what i said holds anyway.

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Icepick: Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers and is part of the game. Emperium mob was modified in IRO for a lower defense, there are multiple solutions for that.

You didnt say you gonna use non-classic emp. Emp was modified with trans/3rd jobs in mind. How every empbreaker using same weapon is interesting. Part of game is not argument, you are talking about modifiying things that are part of game.

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Chem/Strips: That's not how that works. You can't be sure you'll have an alchemist 100% focused on protecting everybody's gears. If an alchemist is able to do so, then his guild deserves that inmunity to strip.
So basically who grinds more chem protects wins. Grind over skill - great idea. Oh and BTW, all high tier woe guild were fully chem protected so all rogues changed jobs. But it seems ok for you when whole class become useless. No, slightly buffed backstab wont help, try calculating its' DPS and compare with knight spamming Bash with his eyes closed.


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FO can even one shot KO some classes under some circunstances.

Use pvp calculator, srsly. WOE reduction, 40% demihuman reduction, 30 def = 2800 damage from FO with 120str 90dex monk. 1vit hunter with matyr shoes has over 5k HP. OHKO with FO worked before woe reduction or against naked low-level noobs. Normal woe hunter will tank FO even with LexAeterna.

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The problem is Asura does the job way easier than other skills, not the other way around.
No, its only melee skill that does job. Non-ranked potion heals 100vit woe character for roughly 1100hp, even with retarded 6.67 pots per second (I can probably do that much with my foot). With OI-dance fixed you'll need 8 monks to outdamage that potting with OI. 5 monks with bragi. Great replacement for asura.

*****************************

How much people you think would even touch server with 6.67 pots per second restriction? How much of them would be woe players?


Offline Suspension

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #39 on: Sep 27, 2016, 08:23 AM »
Everybody will use their main skill - Okay, at least their main skill will not be predefined by class.

I don't have any link for an online key press counter.

Woe1 precasts being outputted - That's why I'm boosting skills for pvp/pvm and woe. Cherrypicking woe caps is just a bad aproach.

Dancers, I don't agree, I'm actually forcing more skills and not rely only on dazzler.

Chems, grinding would be easier, so obviously "more chem items" is not the problem. Without full chemical protection is harder to protect every part of the equipment. It's hard to maintain chemical protection for an entire guild 100% of the time even when people has died and returned to the map.

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You didnt say you gonna use non-classic emp. Emp was modified with trans/3rd jobs in mind. How every empbreaker using same weapon is interesting. Part of game is not argument, you are talking about modifiying things that are part of game.
You are just mixing things that end in non sense. It's part of the game, so I'm going to use it. Not hard to understand.

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Use pvp calculator, srsly. WOE reduction, 40% demihuman reduction, 30 def = 2800 damage from FO with 120str 90dex monk. 1vit hunter with matyr shoes has over 5k HP. OHKO with FO worked before woe reduction or against naked low-level noobs. Normal woe hunter will tank FO even with LexAeterna.

Hit the hunter with no shield equipped and with element advantage.

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No, its only melee skill that does job. Non-ranked potion heals 100vit woe character for roughly 1100hp, even with retarded 6.67 pots per second (I can probably do that much with my foot). With OI-dance fixed you'll need 8 monks to outdamage that potting with OI. 5 monks with bragi. Great replacement for asura.

It's woe, not pvp. Don't expect to kill a vit class alone, that's the point of vit.

If I wanted to just buff skills/damage to compete with trans skills, then I would end up with another Renewal. I'm aiming to boost character performance, not only by quantity.

In your latest messages you have been more unrespectful and impolite, and your arguments have degraded to words such as "retarded", fake numbers and the precious logic of "that wont work because I don't like it". I invite you to leave this thread if my changes cause you such anger.
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.

Offline lllaaazzz

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #40 on: Sep 27, 2016, 06:12 PM »
someone just needs to make all the useless skills viable(even if its just for pvm...), add a couple custom jobs(youtube) the IMO looks pretty simple if your familiar with the scripts, and just keep the episode before all that mora enchanting s***... throw in some cash sinks and you got yourself a quality server

Offline Atis

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #41 on: Sep 28, 2016, 06:40 AM »
Skill will be predefined even more, dancers will specialize around less skills for example, instead of dazzler and slow grace, we'll have dazzler or slowgrace.

If you dont have press counter, how did you get 6.67 number?

All i could find was https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/2419343/
Got 111 per 10 second but it's shaky spacebar and I'm rusty. After few woes I should do more with my glorious F3 key. And ofc I'm not fastest gamer in RO crowd, there are always people who can do much more.

Chem protection is not hard, everybody and his dog is in discord now, just as for chems. It was not a problem for decent guild before, only consumables were. So it was kinda streamlined = grind enough and enemy strippers are screwed. Do not grind enough and enemy strippers screw you. Only 2 outcomes, no variety. With what I suggested strippers always have work to do but with chems their effectiveness is very limited.

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It's part of the game, so I'm going to use it. Not hard to understand.

Trans and 3rd jobs are also part of the game. Old skills are part of the game. It's not an valid reason. You change things for variety yet keep icepick that kills variety. How does this make sense?

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Hit the hunter with no shield equipped and with element advantage.

What element advantage? He won't wear Druid with no shield and barely even remove shield when you are close enough to FO him. If FO can kill only shieldless 1vit hunter without thara it's not worth using, anybody can kill 1vit hunter. 70vit hunter will survive aspersio FO on ED without thara. Only way to justify using FO is make it effective against more targets. No point to have skill that requires 5 spheres, long time to cast and realistically kill only naked lowlevels.

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It's woe, not pvp. Don't expect to kill a vit class alone, that's the point of vit.
On woe all classes except wizard are vit. And wizards are protected by support classes.

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If I wanted to just buff skills/damage to compete with trans skills, then I would end up with another Renewal. I'm aiming to boost character performance, not only by quantity.

But you are not boosting any performance. You are just removing asura and dazzler spam, all other changes are too small to affect meta. So you get 2 crowds exchanging punches until one is out of pots or 30 knights with icepicks an chemprotects  from attackers guild get emp broken.

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In your latest messages you have been more unrespectful and impolite, and your arguments have degraded to words such as "retarded",

If you want respect then dont go personal, putting words in my mouth, calling my numbers fake, and trying to lower my logic to "that wont work because I don't like it" when you literally use arguments like "Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers".

You brought random list of changes that dont hold any test in calc, test server or reality check and are throwing mud at anyone who points at that. You refuse to answer with properly calculated arguments and instead respond on level "it will work because MAGIC" instead.

All in all, you are alone with your idea and neither can defend it in proper argument nor attract enough sympathy to take your word on it. Have fun with your dream server that can't exist even in forum hivemind.

Offline Suspension

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #42 on: Sep 28, 2016, 11:00 AM »
Sadly, "because I say so" is not a proper argument either, which is the argument you have used against my word (with an additional amount of rudeness). Next time, backup your arguments with examples or numbers instead of just denying sentences if you are going to show your anger.

I only reply with "mud" to impolite people like you, which don't know how to backup their arguments except with insults. Sadly for you, I have already received PMs from people interested in these ideas and willing to help.

I suggest you apply for world fastest key presser in the world guiness records, that's even more magic. Have fun!
« Last Edit: Sep 28, 2016, 11:24 AM by Suspension »
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.

Offline Atis

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #43 on: Sep 28, 2016, 09:47 PM »
Aaaaand no quotes of me actually saying something along the line of  "because I say so", no answer to numbers I brought, selective blindness to any argument you cant's answer (pretty much any argument at all).

Sadly for me, you gonna make great server with all 1,5 people who sent you PM. No doubt this server will have long and prosperous life with huge population, hailing your superb rebalancing. And if you won't you'll come here and honestly admit your failure, no doubt about that.

Offline Suspension

Re: A reposted idea, rate my point of view
« Reply #44 on: Sep 29, 2016, 02:41 AM »
It's tiring replying to you when you just deny sentences as an argument, there's no point in arguing with somebody that doesn't backup his arguments and only knows insulting when something doesn't look fine for him. I was actually considering increasing woe caps, but your rudeness is disgusting.

But, if you insist, this will be the last time I prove your arguments are invalid:

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Trans and 3rd jobs are also part of the game. Old skills are part of the game. It's not an valid reason. You change things for variety yet keep icepick that kills variety. How does this make sense?

Because you say so. Except I already said in the first post that I'll use a classic environment, 99/50 because it's easier to perform changes. Another case of "I just want to offend you no matter what"

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What element advantage? He won't wear Druid with no shield and barely even remove shield when you are close enough to FO him. If FO can kill only shieldless 1vit hunter without thara it's not worth using, anybody can kill 1vit hunter. 70vit hunter will survive aspersio FO on ED without thara. Only way to justify using FO is make it effective against more targets. No point to have skill that requires 5 spheres, long time to cast and realistically kill only naked lowlevels.

Because you say so. Obviously, there will never be a case when, in the middle of a GVG you end up getting hit without shield, when your main weapon is a bow. Never .

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On woe all classes except wizard are vit. And wizards are protected by support classes.
The main reason people has high vit is stun. I'm nerfing the main skill that induces stun. More people will be able to focus on damage rather than anti-stun builds.

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But you are not boosting any performance. You are just removing asura and dazzler spamall other changes are too small to affect meta. So you get 2 crowds exchanging punches until one is out of pots or 30 knights with icepicks an chemprotects  from attackers guild get emp broken.

Removing limitations like Backstab, combos, Grand cross over LP and venom splasher (and even more that I have in mind but I'm not sure if it's a bit OP) is not improving performance without boosting formulas. Because you say so.

Ice pick will have to be switched and used accordingly to the target, because there will be more  people with mid(or even low) vit due to the already mentioned changes, and the attack weapon is low, with no slots (by default) and also applies to PVM and future dungeon updates. That's why it will bring more variety, but of course, it will not work that way because you say so.

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If you want respect then dont go personal, putting words in my mouth, calling my numbers fake, and trying to lower my logic to "that wont work because I don't like it" when you literally use arguments like "Because I find it an interesting weapon for people using daggers".

You start insulting, calling things "retarded", being obviously impolite and it's my fault going personal. Great logic, Mr. easy 15 pots per second.

Don't expect me replying again if you keep acting like an immature kid. And please, don't hit reply if you only want to mindlessly argue to show your Internet dominance.
« Last Edit: Sep 29, 2016, 02:46 AM by Suspension »
If you think casting quag is a good idea you or your guild heavily failed to create a viable guild rost.