Scandal of RO Private Server: LimitRO

farkitlah · Dec 27, 2016, 11:05 PM

This server have an average 500+ players, and been running for 7 years since 2009. It is a Renewal server which have 2nd largest player populations behind NovaRO, I'm talking about Private server. Yesterday during Boxing Day (26th-Dec-2016) on server time around 12am to 2am++ there's an event that give out 1000CP for each account.

Christmas event start from 1st-December-2016 and it should end after 25th-Dec-2016. How this Christmas event work is everyday you login you can get an item if you talk to the Snowman NPC. Each account can only get it once a day, so if you have few accounts you can get it few times.

Unfortunately GM Lai wanted to give secret gift for player on Boxing day, and most of us assumed he accidently add an extra digit behind. It was supposed to be 100CP instead of 1000CP. After approximately 3 hours of running event, GM Lai realize it and remove the Snowman from the server. After removed, those who does online during that 3 hrs period will not get those free CP.
Some people wonder what's the big deal with 1000CP? CP stands for cash point, which you can use CP to buy donation items/aura/wings, refining material and etc.

The question is how much 1000cp cost: USD$108.45 (as of today convert from SEK Sweden currency) I knew someone who got 28000CP with 28 accounts. That's about $3024 worth of CP. There are of course people who have more than 28 accounts.
This will actually destroy the economy, which cause huge inflation. There's no rollback of server, no actions being taken by GM. He just let it go without any proper explanation or apologies.

The problem is GM Lai which is the admin/owner of the server did not come out and deal with the issues in forum or either facebook page. Instead a helper of the server doing it for him. Its like every Iphone 7 have issues with exploding phone, and Apple did not send their CEO/COO/CTO to deal with this issue, but instead sending Apple store manager to handle it. This speaks a lot about management of GM. And here's the print screen about how GM in here handle the situation: http://imgur.com/gallery/zaiN5

There's of course plenty of corruption involved with GM Lai himself. I knew someone who owned WWS enchant that's not legit, for example White wing brooch with EA enchant. He said that Lai will offer OP/illegal equips if you're paying for it. This lists do have few accusations involved with him as well. http://forum.ratemyserver.net/hall-of-shame/gm-hall-of-shame/

Maybe you wonder why some of us still playing this server, that's because we already waste so much time/effort/money on it and we do not want to stat all over again at other server.
I will just print screen some of the players opinions/comments from forum & Facebook about this incident below: http://imgur.com/gallery/7RtLL

In the future, those who interested in joining this server please take note. You will have hard time catching up with existing players since they have free CP. It's already hard before this issues happened. I feel sad for those who's hardworking in farming or those who earn their hard money to donate, in return they did not get anything from this event.

Some of you can say that I'm a loser/butthurt or whatever, but this is not supposed to happen and its not acceptable in any way. I'm not the one who hurt the most, I did not use any money on this server, but most of my friends did.

One of the main reason I post this issues is not only remind future players who wish to join this server, but also for other servers to take note. Don't make such mistake, even if you do, handle it fairly & equally. Face the problem and solve it accordingly. Last but not least, sorry for involving some of the players into this incident & sorry for bad English. Feel free to comment on this incident even if you're not playing in this server. All the best & have a nice day guys!

Edit 1 (18.02 GMT, 27-Dec-2016): I just realized GM Lai actually removed the Q&A regarding 1k CP incident thread. I got most of my printscreen from this thread, now its gone. Just pretend like nothing happen before and continue play it like normal. Luckily I still have some evident on the print screen.

Note: If I post in the wrong place, please direct me to the correct place. And I posted this incident on Reddit first, one user recommend that I post it here. Here's the link if you guys wanna read comment from members & my reply there
https://www.reddit.com/r/RagnarokOnline/comments/5ki38v/biggest_scandal_in_the_history_of_ro_private/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit 2 (29th-Dec-2016, 4:12AM GMT): http://imgur.com/a/0q0Yd
This was posted by one of the member: http://i.imgur.com/E9oxlKh.png
He/She did post it on LimitRO forum, but deleted once Lai found it out.

Perhaps some of you wonder why I'm still here even though it's confirm that GM Lai won't do anything to fix the problem. Right now I'm here not demanding him to fix this issue anymore since he just ignored it from the beginning till now. I wanna show RO community, whether current or future players, show them why you should not join this server, or any bad/unfair/incompetent server. Even though my effort only able to convince one player to avoid this server, I will still feel worth the effort. At least that one person can enjoy RO experience playing in better server.

Edit 3 (29th-Dec-2016, 10:17AM GMT): This is what happened when someone post this thread to the forum.
http://imgur.com/a/7q0w2

From other player: http://i.imgur.com/XxReswz.png

Lai · Dec 28, 2016, 12:41 AM

Worst Christmas ever for me... sigh.

Waking up seeing msg about this, was like Nooooo

Oh well, all I can say is... I'm just a normal human being...

Thank you for this post and let everyone know about this, and about my negative sides, really appreciates it.

I'm not a perfect person, did many mistakes running LimitRO, most of those issues ofcourse not intended....

But, one thing is for sure, LimitRO will be here till the day I die, always 24/7 up running for those who still wants to have fun and of course a special server it own way

No comment or other issues pointed by the OP, very nice written and in details, thumbs up

IF anyone wanna ask more detailed questions, feel free to contact me on facebook.com/limitrolai - I'm open and happy to answer or just normal chats or just become friends, yea..

Worst Christmas event ~~

Thanks.

farkitlah · Dec 28, 2016, 03:11 AM

Lai, I'm not born to hate you. As I mentioned all this time, I did not lost much. I don't even have good equips/card myself. I just feel unfair the way you treat to those who loyal to your server. Some friends that I knew here just felt betray or sad by your decision keep the way it was after the incident. And those friends played here for years and do donate as well.

You can say that I bring back 5 to 6 years problem out. Let's be honest for once, everyone make mistake. Many years ago you make mistakes, and after all these years you never learn and make the same mistake again. That said a lot about it, you don't care at all. Learn from mistakes and change. Removing thread or message won't help either.

I agree that LimitRO will be here to stay, it will continue running. But you can't deny that plenty players did quit after this incident. If only you want to have more players for your server in the future, please change the way you handling issues. Listen to your players suggestions/opinions. Put your ego down won't hurt you.

No hard feeling, and please take my advice as consideration. Have a nice day!

Blinzer · Dec 28, 2016, 04:05 AM

This doesn't belong in Server Discussion. Anyways...

There is no relation between Lai's past and this situation in particular. These are basics, man. Stop devolving humanity.

I'm not going to argue the ingame stuff. OP has stated the repercussions of what went down clear enough for us all to understand this will not be healthy for the server and something should be done about it. There's no way to solve this problem cleanly without rolling back. You can change the currency of the cash point system so the old ones don't work, but that would only work on the people who are stashing their points that don't read this(meaning some will have already spent them on items, and even if you caught everyone off guard... you're not going to go manually track every single player's purchases to clean the rest of this mess up. it's just not going to happen). Items don't have dates of coming into existence as far as I know, so you can't use a "change the donation items from x date and on to apple" script either.

To call this a "scandal" is a joke, especially from your position. You claimed the guy put one extra zero by accident(allegedly) and didn't calculate people using a lot of accounts to get more. Stupid? Sure. Dumb idea? All you want. Messed up the game? Ok. But to use a mistake of a person to criticize their work is on the same level of racism(guilty by association) and makes you look like a clown. You would be much better off talking about what kind of bad things he's done intentionally if you really want to go down the path of being a parasite, but ultimately you should only lay down the facts of the server itself, and leave the person behind it out of it. You're not even talking like this person is human right now, and because of it you gave him a chance to play the victim card and say "I'M JUST HUMAN". That's your fault for not having common decency, and now you gave a person who needed to get yelled at a way to escape it and never solve the situation. You should have been less attacking of the person and more intent on expressing a way to solve the problem. Ad hominem is for monkeys, not humans.

Rolling back is not as simple as you think. It's not like Admins just magically have rollback feature, you have to put it in yourself to have it. Maybe he doesn't roll back because he can't(though, it's a server of 7 years so that would be disgraceful). If that was the case, I guess that makes the server have some lackluster fundamentals I guess? You didn't criticize him for that though, so you're just shooting the air and misleading people to look in the wrong direction.The only practical thing you can do is try to convince him to roll it back if he does have that power, or accept the fact that the server is going to have an influx of donation items now.

By the way, you never accounted for the possibility that Lai could have made it broken on purpose to benefit someone else under the table. I also don't see why he wouldn't just give it under the table period, but the nature of slimy people is that they are not good at life. I'm not saying any of this is the case, but I'm saying you have to be aware of all the possibilities and come in with a hammer if you're going to swing at someone, and the way you swing make me think you ain't never used a hammer in your life.

In conclusion, these things happen. An honest mistake can be really bad, but it's still an honest mistake. Roll it back, there is no real problem here unless you can't. Then we'll talk about it.

For Lai only:

Spoiler

Everyone say it with me, "Awww, poor you!". You're pulling that classic beat around the bush s*** that makes my eyes bleed. It's amazing how you wrote over 200 words, yet your entire post is as hollow and cheap as a plastic cup. It's amazing how you even managed to do that. Regardless, consider yourself lucky that from what I read here about this situation, you didn't do much wrong. I'm going to clear up the problem before anybody else has a chance to unclear it, so before you start replying in this topic like you know what's good pay close attention to what I said.

[close]

Min · Dec 28, 2016, 04:37 AM

Quote from: Blinzer on Dec 28, 2016, 04:05 AM
In conclusion, these things happen. An honest mistake can be really bad, but it's still an honest mistake. Roll it back, there is no real problem here unless you can't. Then we'll talk about it.

Lai already stated he aint rolling back.

Blinzer · Dec 28, 2016, 05:41 AM

Quote from: Min on Dec 28, 2016, 04:37 AM
Lai already stated he aint rolling back.

So we have one guy raging at how he missed the reward, and the other one saying "omg guys pls i'm just human don't hate i make mistakes!" while he sits there watching all like o-o and actively makes the decision to purposely not fix the problem

And not a single person here even suspects that there's something that you're not being told? wat

farkitlah · Dec 28, 2016, 06:04 AM

@Blinzer

About the extra zero by accident was a speculation from players there. The reason why I sound like accusing instead of confirming is because from the very start till the end he did not make any statement of why there's 1000CP gift for each account. And I don't think Lai willing to giveout 1000CP, USD$108.45 worth of gift to every accounts. If he does, then why remove it after 3 hrs? Truthfully that will ruined not only ruin the economy of the game, but also his real money through donation.

As I mentioned before, human make mistakes. Right now I'm not criticize him because of mistake, but the way he handle after the mistake. Your point about "Expressing a way to solve the situation". Do you really think we did not give him suggestion on how to solve this problem? We did, and we have plenty of ideas how to solve it. First of course roll back, but rollback is not as easy as people think like what you mentioned. Maybe admin did not make backup and if rollback might be go way further than 1 month ago.

So we provides other suggestion, like making the NPC available for one day so that everyone can get it. Or maybe only let 6 months old account to have it or just disable Cash Point shop or maybe remove creation of new account and put the NPC available so that people can't create new account to get it and so on and on. Many of us did provides bunch of ideas how to solve it, but you would have guess what happened in the end. Lai just said no rollback and just let it be. That's it!

No reason, no explanation, no apologies, literally nothing other than some statement similar to above comment(you can check the printscreen from imgur). Exactly what you stated, played the victim card. And the worst part of it, he delete the thread that discussed about this 1000CP incident.

If you really thought this whole thread is about how I rage about missing those event. And if you thought everything I wrote was made up, then shall be it. This problem affect plenty of RO players in that server, more people quitting RO because not many willing to start fresh on other server. And you don't even know my main purpose of this thread.

This is what I wrote earlier in reddit thread.

Spoiler

"And the main reason why I post this thread is not about butthurt or complaining, as I said I did not lost as much compared most players there. I'm posting here because I wanna give a clear image for future players that are interested in joining this server.
Let them see the big & clear picture of this server, if not they might fall into the same fate as me or other players.

As for me, I do wish that RO community actually share their honest opinions/thoughts about server they played before and currently playing. This means a lot to this community. At least future players will feel comfortable trusting RO community in general."

[close]

Bue · Dec 28, 2016, 07:04 AM

This can be fixed. So lets be pragmatic here.

Assuming CP / donation items can be traded on the market, the worst case scenario is inflation of CP or a saturated donation item market, depending on whether CP is traded, spent, or both.

So lets work this out.

1. Temporarily disable all donation item shops and all mechanisms for trading CP.
2. Estimated the total amount of CP "loss" from the event, then estimated the inflation rate.
3. Increase the prices of all donations items and the dollar-to-CP conversion rate by the inflation rate.
4. Reimburse donators within X interval by the new dollar-to-CP conversion rate minus what is already paid out.
* Reimbursement should decrease as you reach the end of your interval, i.e. 90% within last 2 days, %80 within last 5 days, and so on.

I think this will limit the impact on the donation revenue, but more work still needs to be done because the lost of real value of CP and influx of donation items hitting the market.

1. Create a newer version of all donation equipment; extra bonus, slot, or status.
2. Replace the donation item shops with the newer version to incentive new donators.
3. Create a NPC to upgrade the previous donation equipment for a CP fee.
4. Create a NPC to upgrade the previous donation equipment by X for 1.
5. The upgraded donation equipment MUST BE account bounded.
6. Create a temporary and low-CP consumables market.

I think this will limit the player backlash due to their lost in real value of CP, which can be spent towards upgrades or consumables.

If neither CP nor donation items can be traded, then this would be simpler to fix, i.e. increase prices, dollar conversion, and reimburse recent donators. But if you do absolutely nothing, then just hope to your god(s) that the damage is minimal.

krakenhunter · Dec 28, 2016, 08:03 AM

We have discussion on forum about what the best possible act to fix this problem but Lai never come. WE DIDN'T BLAME THE MISTAKE, BUT WE BLAME THE RESPONSE.

No explanation, all the story I hear is not from Lai but from others and speculation.

Quote from: Blinzer on Dec 28, 2016, 04:05 AM
Rolling back is not as simple as you think. It's not like Admins just magically have rollback feature, you have to put it in yourself to have it. Maybe he doesn't roll back because he can't(though, it's a server of 7 years so that would be disgraceful). If that was the case, I guess that makes the server have some lackluster fundamentals I guess? You didn't criticize him for that though, so you're just shooting the air and misleading people to look in the wrong direction.The only practical thing you can do is try to convince him to roll it back if he does have that power, or accept the fact that the server is going to have an influx of donation items now.

In conclusion, these things happen. An honest mistake can be really bad, but it's still an honest mistake. Roll it back, there is no real problem here unless you can't. Then we'll talk about it.

Some said (not confirmed) the last database is 6 months ago so roll back is not possible.

Its already 2 days after the incident, nothing can be done other than roll back. Lai should close the server temporary when he found out but he just remove the snowman and continue it. You should be able to remove the 1k CP one by one eventough its a long work. If you can't roll back thats probably the best action.
Lai even doesn't acknowledge the problem. In his face he questioning what did they could do with 1k CP? The answer is refining all s*** to +7 since 1k CP means 250 HD Elunium/ori. Do you even understand Ragnarok? Do you even know the HD ores is in shop and what they could do?

Spoiler

Dafi De Onrechtdmatigdaad don't imagine stuff, the ores are not 100%, maybe they refine using those ores causes them to destroy even more items.
https://mobile.facebook.com/comment/replies/?ctoken=1644671529159839_1644859039141088&count=7&curr&pc=1&ft_ent_identifier=1644671529159839&gfid=AQAniiEOKMqnGkE_&refid=52&_ft_=top_level_post_id.1644671529159839%3Atl_objid.1644671529159839%3Athid.100008510224613&__tn__=R

[close]

What did lai do?
1. Saying the mistake is "secret gift". <-------not plead guilty but making lie instead. We should expect 1k CP per ID next year too if that is really a "gift".
2. Saying its not a problem. People can't do s*** with 1k CP?
3. Not doing anything. Not giving explanation, just a vague status on facebook saying that there are many people support him.<--------telling people just quit?
4. Today lai is removing the forum thread. <---------removing evidence
All that response is just selfish, not to fix the server but just fix your reputation. Is that a best response?

Quote from: Bue on Dec 28, 2016, 07:04 AM
This can be fixed. So lets be pragmatic here.

Lai already decide to do nothing and try to bury the problem. He won't listening to you as he won't listening to his player. He just removing a thread discussing that anyway.
Please stop playing victim lai, you are god in limitro and you choose to abandon your people. You are incompetent but refuse to listen people word. I don't even think that you try to fix this.

Bue · Dec 28, 2016, 08:21 AM

You can always organize a protest by rallying with other players.

It really comes down to a question of whether you need him or he needs you.

If you can't rally other players, then its just you.

If you can rally other players and protest fails, then quit.

You can't improve the service simply by bashing your admin on alternate forums. You can't excuse him for not testing the NPC beforehand, but there is a lot of work involved in maintaining a server on short staff.

Lai · Dec 28, 2016, 10:24 AM

After my last reply, I went to out together with my fiancee, my little cousin and my little brother to the wedding planner ~~

My marriage is on 2017.1.9 ~~
Then drove together to another city to visit my ill grandparents :( They are 80+ now, both are in the hospital :( Worst time ever....

And now...
Just came home and surprised that SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many words to read ~~
English isnt my first language, and my head spinzz right now ~~

Anyhow, let's be more realistic, and I will try to answer some questions made by curious and nice community members outside LimitRO.

1. Back up isn't possible, because last backup was 6 days ago when the incident happened...doing a back up will make people ACTUALLY lose stuff. This incident if you look in a different way, it didnt make anyone lose anything, but just many MISSED this "bug", and some gained a lot benefit for free, would say many won the lottery of the year.

2. The reply I made was not thinking that much as some described, I'm just me, and I reply what I think, without any complications :P
Man, I think some of the replies authors can write books xDDD

3. Everyone is different, and I do not talk for everyone, but wish that you guys could also talk for yourselves ~~ And in this case, I choosed this quote:
Sometimes, doing nothing is also doing something :)
and also this quote:
Let the time cure the issue.

4. I do appreciate all the suggestions made, but tbh, they are SOOOO complicated xD

5. Also, I'm up for further discussions or friend making etc, simply add me up on facebook.com/limitrolai ~~
Any requests, normal chats etc etc are welcome :)

PS. My emoji over this incident is:

Potatoes · Dec 28, 2016, 10:38 AM

I don't get it. This is an easy problem to solve Lai, even after 2 days. There are logs for all cash point transactions and you can track who abused it (it just takes a single SQL query...). Then you check who still has enough CP to take those away from their accounts directly. As for the rest, you track down which items they've bought (yes, those can be easily tracked down as well). Do you not know what is logged and what isn't? =l If that's the case, then it's just sad.

... Don't use excuses like a marriage or whatever else you can come up with. I know you're trying to lessen the impact of your mess by attempting to make people pity you, but that's just disgusting. You are responsible for what happened here and this is your server. Get your priorities straight.

(Also... no automatic backups, after 7 years...? Ouch lol. These should be done every 4~6 hours btw, not every week.)

krakenhunter · Dec 28, 2016, 11:34 AM

Quote from: Lai on Dec 28, 2016, 10:24 AM
1. Back up isn't possible, because last backup was 6 days ago when the incident happened...doing a back up will make people ACTUALLY lose stuff. This incident if you look in a different way, it didnt make anyone lose anything, but just many MISSED this "bug", and some gained a lot benefit for free, would say many won the lottery of the year.

In my opinionONE WEEK ROLL BACK IS NOTHING THAN 1K CP PER ID
(I also think 100 CP per ID even will have a big impact on the market)

If you ask the player you can see that the market is progressing to crumble. I can see a vendor selling 6 pcs +7 AHB. In a few days those all will became +9. There are 3 people selling AHB in chat this afternoon, probably the item value has down to 2/3 before the incident and it will further go down. Its not only that item, all item will drop.
People who donate also feel betrayed

Do you understand economy? If the value of item go down it means you lose money, the money loss is so much. People with >10k CP will have ability to destroy the market a full year.
So is this bug or gift? You never say it was bug in forum or facebook.

Quote from: Lai on Dec 28, 2016, 10:24 AM
3. Everyone is different, and I do not talk for everyone, but wish that you guys could also talk for yourselves ~~ And in this case, I choosed this quote:
Sometimes, doing nothing is also doing something
and also this quote:
Let the time cure the issue.

If there something you can do, "Let the time cure the issue" became "I don't care". Why your grandparents in hospital? why don't you let them sick in home and let the time cure the issue? Because sometimes time is the one who killing you. Problem tend to be harder to fix if you leave it longer.
Covering mistake with lie is counted as doing something actually, it just not helping. Please change it into "Let the lie cure the issue."

Quote from: Lai on Dec 28, 2016, 10:24 AM
4. I do appreciate all the suggestions made, but tbh, they are SOOOO complicated xD

You are not even replying the forum in your own and now you removing it. Who want to believe that you read and considering it now? You have yuuki, freya and the helper. If you can't make decision you can ask them. Helper is a player and they know muchhhhhh more about the game than you.

Quote from: Potatoes on Dec 28, 2016, 10:38 AM
... Don't use excuses like a marriage or whatever else you can come up with. I know you're trying to lessen the impact of your mess by attempting to make people pity you, but that's just disgusting. You are responsible for what happened here and this is your server. Get your priorities straight.

I agree. If you can't think you can delegate someone to fix it for you. Abandoning is different than delegating. At least there will be some effort to fix, not just let the time.

farkitlah · Dec 28, 2016, 12:06 PM

@bue
Just for your info, the CP cannot be transfer to other account/player. But you can actually use CP to exchange for other items such as HD elunium (4cp each) and etc. I read all of your suggestions on how to fix it. First of all, its too complicated for Lai I think. And even it is possible, he won't put effort doing it. This is how much he care for the server & players there. This is not accusation, you can actually read what Lai wrote here.

@krakenhunter
Thank you krakenhunter. Finally someone from LimitRO and back me up. I feel like one man army before. 100% agree with everything you said, especially this, "WE DIDN'T BLAME THE MISTAKE, BUT WE BLAME THE RESPONSE." I hope there's more people from there can support us.

@Lai
Point 1: Roll back 6 days ago is better than what we have now. Unbalance, unfair treatment to loyal players who did not have the privilege of getting the so called free CP. Ya, you're right about we didn't lose anything. But a lot of them gaining something they should't have in the first place.

Point 3: "Sometimes, doing nothing is also doing something" - this quote make you sound more ignorant. And the quote "Sometimes", its obviously not suitable for this time. You have the power to do something about it, and you choose to ignore it. "Let the time cure the issue" - time won't cure it unless you do something about it. Yes, maybe people will forgive, but they won't forget.

Point 5: How do we have further discussions when you can't face your loyal players on forum and choose to delete that thread. You need a helper from the server to handle this incident through FB/forum. With great power, come great responsibility. You're the one who in-charge of this server, you should be the one who face this mess, and don't forget, its you who make this mess. Not other GM, not helper and definitely not the player. My only request is do something about this issues. Find a way to solve it, not ignoring it. Come on, this is your only way to fix your reputation.

@Potatoes
I don't know why he still making excuses until now. Play the victim card. Till the moment where he drag his family into this issue too.

jacobo_bobo · Dec 28, 2016, 12:06 PM

@Lai

Maybe you should spend less time botting votes/tricking people and spend more time properly planning your Christmas Event.

You seemed so full of it when you admitted to bot votes and now you come here acting like a victim "I'm only human" --- I call it Karma.
http://forum.ratemyserver.net/server-discussion/beware-of-servers-using-vote-bots!/

On topic:
It would be a shame if a server this old doesn't have an auto backup feature. I guess that's why he can't/won't roll back his server. You should do the RO community a favor and stop tricking them into joining your server, only to have them waste their time due to your lack of professionalism.

I don't understand why any admin would give away cash points as Christmas Event if he knows his server is plagued by dual clients. You had to find a way to limit it to one per person and I don't mean using IP address.

P.S - No solution is too difficult if you at least try. We live in 2016 (almost 2017). Learn to use the internet to answer your questions. Learn new things. If you can't, you can use the same internet to hire a freelancer that can help you. By the sounds of it you were too lazy to double check your Christmas Event and now you are too lazy to do anything about it. I'm surprised your server is still alive with such an unprepared administrator. I guess you've been lucky.

I'm not going to bother giving you any suggestions on how to fix your server. More than likely you will be too lazy to read them or find them too "Complicated" to try.