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Ragnarok Online => Job Discussion => Novice & Extended => Topic started by: Honorbydeath on Nov 01, 2006, 06:09 pm

Title: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Honorbydeath on Nov 01, 2006, 06:09 pm
ok recently ive seen how bad they are compared too all class even sniper uscks and a hp on HIGH RATE so i recently added human mobs and **** so i made a human card for gs to give all its skills lvl 20 so that they could acutaly be good and i may add a lvl 25 ds for the sniper since evne a lvl 50 fa ********
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Aqua on Dec 21, 2006, 09:40 am
*Smacks.* "Bad dog. Just cause you suck with a class, doesn't mean that the class sucks. Further more, just by 'reading' what you 'typed', I can already tell you made a very stupid mistake."
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Bass on Dec 27, 2006, 05:17 am
I'm almost positive that a Gunslinger with duel Pistols and an Awakening Pot can get 190 Atkspd. A Gunslinger with a Metaling Garrison, or even a Whitesmith Garrison, can lock most enemies (monster or players) through sheer attack speed, as well as strip an opponent's weapon, or break their armor/weapon (depending on the card). And with a two slotted Garrison, that leaves you a second slot to put whatever you'd like in (two of the same cards to increase the chance?) That sounds pretty good to me.

Snipers. I just saw two Snipers today arguing over damage. They can Double Strafe each other for roughly 5000 damage. That's a considerable amount, and though its not Assassin Cross damage, it's spammable with range with easy element swapping. My level 80 Sniper deals 6850 damage on enemies with Falcon Assault, and thats without buffs or good equipment. Could you imagine what a Bazerald and some other good Int boosting cards would do? Mind you, this is all defense negating damage too. The only way to reduce FA damage is to be resistant to Neutral attacks (ala Ghostring, Raydric, Harpy, etc.), and those typically aren't in the hands of every player.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: llxwarbirdxll on Dec 27, 2006, 11:20 pm
Yeah Gunslingers suck...
The disarm skill is okay, but still... meh...
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: laecertus on Jan 03, 2007, 12:39 pm
HE S IN HR AND IN HR ALL OF THE RANGED SKILLS SUCK
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: ClothoX on Jan 13, 2007, 04:05 pm
personally...gunslingers are not that strong, and quite difficult to lvl on a low rate mind you.  Is hard to say if Sniper is stronger or gunslinger... ??? They are a tough class mainly cuz of their HP factor.  (If you ask me why hp is the most critical element in battle you should be shot)

but snipers got nerfed, a classicial typical example is

assasin < hunter

assasin cross > sniper

i have personally seen a sniper with 99 vit right out pawned a SD sinx by spamming the trap land mine and using falcon assults.  (although i thought that sinx was kinda noob)
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: llxwarbirdxll on Jan 15, 2007, 01:00 am
And another thing that I should point out...
Gunslingers can only go up to their first branch.
They dont have a second branch like the taekwon tree,
so their hp is pretty much useless...
It's just like super novices. =/
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: itswilliam on Jan 21, 2007, 08:55 pm
Gunslingers, along with the other extended classes, are meant to overachieve ONLY the first classes.
So gunslingers should be able to defeat an archer, and hold up it's own against a sniper/hunter decently.
Taekwon can probably takedown a swordsman + merchant and be able to fight fairly against a a knight/crusader/blacksmith.
Ninja can kill a thief or mage easily, and fight against an assassin/rogue or a wizard/sage.
Extended classes were never meant to be as good as the originals.
So keep that in mind.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Loki FortunaRO on Jan 21, 2007, 09:23 pm
My players never really had any complaints about Gunslingers, but then again we don't really care about skills and fighting and all that.

Anyway, it's probably all a matter of perspective.  Isn't gunslinger still in experimental stages, anyway?
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Caprion on Jan 22, 2007, 08:54 am
I don't really like Gunslingers as far as skills go...

But their concept and appearance are awesome!  Isn't that was really matters?  ;D
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Vorashnik on Jan 23, 2007, 10:07 am
I've seen gunslingers in action. Bass is pretty much spot on. I've seen a Gunslinger with a gatling deliver pwnage faster than agi/str/dex build blacksmith with full smith-buffs and berserk pot. And the gunslingers can do it at range whereas said smith needs to get right at melee before he can clobber mobs. It's just a matter of figuring out what works for your character.

If you own a private server with gunslingers and don't like their "cruddiness", a good fix is just give it 30-50 more job levels so it can stand more of a chance against trans.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: itswilliam on Jan 24, 2007, 07:06 pm
Shotgun Frenzy > Double Strafe/ANYOTHERLONGRANGESKILLOUTTHERE.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Minkyu on Feb 11, 2007, 12:28 am
*Hit Very Hard*You are a baddog! gunslingers dont suck or csuk as YOU ::) call them
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Kurogasa on Feb 12, 2007, 11:12 am
Gunslingers, along with the other extended classes, are meant to overachieve ONLY the first classes.
So gunslingers should be able to defeat an archer, and hold up it's own against a sniper/hunter decently.
Taekwon can probably takedown a swordsman + merchant and be able to fight fairly against a a knight/crusader/blacksmith.
Ninja can kill a thief or mage easily, and fight against an assassin/rogue or a wizard/sage.
Extended classes were never meant to be as good as the originals.
So keep that in mind.

This is only true for below average players. Consider every char i mention after this high lvl(85-99) with decent to great gear.

A star glad is one of the best emp breakers(id call it third after edp sinxs and zerk lordknights). It can do very good pvp damage points and ive taken out good players using advanced classes quite consistantly(and mind you i dont play on high rates or over 99 stat/lvl so this is legitamate type servers im talking). They do have trouble against certain classes but all classes do.

Taekwon ranker has enough hp to tank just about anything and can be very helpfull in woe by breaking the precast using that tanking ability(20k+ hp.. yes please), good aspd and the High jump skill(can get around the castles faster than anyone by jumping onto the snipeing points). For pvp they arent quite as good but with good gears they can beat some advanced classes.

Soul linker is not meant to pvp but they can raise their teams power so much that it doesnt matter. Great class to have around especially if its built for woe(mid int 100 vit mid-high dex no attack skill). And if you pair it with another soul linker the opposing guilds may as well not even precast.

Ninja.. magic is broken just in case you didnt know. Ice bolt is doing 100% matk per bolt instead of 70% like its supposed to. Its broken like this on officials to but it will be a while before its fixed. Their bolt skills have NO aftercast unlike mage ones. Fire formation is a great slowdown technique for woe as is Hidden water(use this in a precast.. only tk classes should get by if everyone concentrates. The 3rd tier wind skill goes OVER magnetic earth and has NO CAST TIME.. not to mention its a WIND skill.. This makes your precast MUCH MUCH stronger due to the wind skill breaking the sg freeze as well as killing/slowing down enemys if they manage to drop magnet earth. The third tier fire skill does great damage and is extremely nasty with a strings bard.

Gunslinger. Gattling for locking, statusing and emp breaking is good but its a very fragile build. Shotgun can afford to get a good amount of vit, do very respectable ranged damage, has a huge radius atk for the times where its usefull(11x11) and can use grenade launcher to set seriously damageing traps which also status. BTW try full buster with a strings bard, blue pots and a proper weapon and build. ;D

These classes werent meant to be worse or better than originals, they are like any class in that they have shortcomings and advantages. They each can do things that no other class can do.
Quote
The only way to reduce FA damage is to be resistant to Neutral attacks (ala Ghostring, Raydric, Harpy, etc.), and those typically aren't in the hands of every player.

Thara and poo/berret/etc also lower FA damage. Not for sure if alligator cards and long mace do as well.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: ClothoX on Feb 12, 2007, 11:44 am
wow, *claps for all the effort*  ;)

but on my server, recently, i noticed Ninja to be strongly overpowering.  With no delays to their cast, they are almost owning every class.  It seems, their skills are much more rounded than the skills of a mage class.

TK in my mind is just a extremely fun class, you really kinda have to be a ranker to be any good.

Soul linkers in itself is a very good PvM class. Their soul link is extremely deadly, especially if you have 2 soul linker in your guild. Heck, with those links, even my holy light can pawn! And what about sonic blow? as if edp and sonic blow aren't strong enough already!

Gunslinger and Star gladiator seems to be the two class that does not stand out as much as Ninja or Soul linker.  But they are your average type of classes, not overpowered nor underpowered.  I think these new add-ons are quite nice to RO.

PS: anyone thinks male ninja is like orochimaru?  :P
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: shane3x on Feb 13, 2007, 11:08 pm
if you knew how to play a gunslinger you wouldnt say they suck. jesus just get a butcher or destoryer then use gatling fever and you can be attacking at the fastest possible speed (depending on gears & server aspd cap)

splash damage skill and a shotty can own large areas of monsters/people and spamming bullet shower with lots of dex and luk can own aswell.

Vet Person (GS) > non vet other class.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Starburst on Feb 14, 2007, 11:35 am
First, Snipers suck on HR because HRs have very few people with any actual skill. A friend of mine had a Sniper on XileRO that utterly owned everything, because they require skill, unlike your typical HR ringers(Asura Champs, EDP Assassins, Divest Stalkers, etc).

Itswilliam was right. YES there are certain ways the extended classes can be useful and strong, but they are not meant to have the potential of a trans class at all, and are arguably as strong as a second class. You can take a weak class and be strong with it if you know what you're doing, just like people who make perma second classes and own trans people, perma Thieves and kill off Assassins. It happens, but the average extended class is not as strong as the average second class, and isn't comparable to a trans.

The strength of the Gunslinger is its range of skills. They have large AoE skills, they have fast spamming single target skills, they have slow but powerful skills, they have a damaging skill for every situation. Sadly, their fast spamming skills aren't as good as DS, their aoes are crap compared to Wizard spells, Desperado is nothing compared to Grand Cross and Meteor Assault, and Full Buster ain't got nothing on Falcon Assault and Arrow Vulcan.

The Ninja has something of the same. They have stealth abilities above most classes, but a Stalker or Assassin(Cross) is much better. They have strong magic skills, but they're nothing compared to a High Wizard's. And etc.

The extended classes are here for an entertainment for people who have done it all. They have their place in WoE, but aren't meant to be as strong as a trans class. They CAN be as strong as a trans class, but it's rarely the case, and it's unfair to compare them to trans and call them weak.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: llxwarbirdxll on Feb 16, 2007, 11:46 pm
but on my server, recently, i noticed Ninja to be strongly overpowering.  With no delays to their cast, they are almost owning every class.  It seems, their skills are much more rounded than the skills of a mage class.
Same applies to the server that I play on. Several people complain about Ninjas
because of their strong, pounding magical attacks and their Cicada Skin Shedding/Illusionary Shadow skills.
And theres also the fact that Cicada Skin Shedding blocks against Asura Strike and other strong physical skills.
Fortunately, Ninjas have very few options when faced by Snipers.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Kurogasa on Feb 18, 2007, 02:23 pm
Well its mostly because Eathena is emulating the bug on kro/iro where freezeing spear is doing 100% matk instead of 70% like its supposed to. Add in the fact that lvl 1 fs casts very fast and hits 3 times.. 300%matk for low sp and very spamable. Cicada can be used against a ninja that relys on it too much.. Bushin is alot better althought cicada has its place as well. Flip tatami turns your square into penuma for 3 seconds(no ranged damage) but has a 3 second delay... basicly meaning it can slow down the pace of a ranged battle for you but youd have to hide as soon as its turns off and jump away(or possibly shadow slash if youre mele) otherwise it just prolongs the inevidable. A good ninja can beat a sniper at times though.. just gotta outsmart him.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: llxwarbirdxll on Feb 24, 2007, 04:45 pm
Well its mostly because Eathena is emulating the bug on kro/iro where freezeing spear is doing 100% matk instead of 70% like its supposed to. Add in the fact that lvl 1 fs casts very fast and hits 3 times.. 300%matk for low sp and very spamable. Cicada can be used against a ninja that relys on it too much.. Bushin is alot better althought cicada has its place as well. Flip tatami turns your square into penuma for 3 seconds(no ranged damage) but has a 3 second delay... basicly meaning it can slow down the pace of a ranged battle for you but youd have to hide as soon as its turns off and jump away(or possibly shadow slash if youre mele) otherwise it just prolongs the inevidable. A good ninja can beat a sniper at times though.. just gotta outsmart him.
It doesnt matter if Freezing Spear does 100% instead of 70%,
the fact is that it's way TOO spammable and it can be abused.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: ClothoX on Feb 24, 2007, 05:31 pm
I think I will make a ninja and try things out >_> can't know its weakness till you try it yourself. 
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Kurogasa on Feb 25, 2007, 03:44 am
90%(30x3) matk per cast doesnt matter? Then why do people use hydras at all.. thats only 80%. The thing is.. the way the skill is meant to work is: 70% matk per bolt normally and more when youre standing on the hidden water skill. Right now on kro its doing 100% matk reguardless of the land skill so basicly the land skill is also alot less usefull.

I think if everything was working properly its fine(on normal 99 lvl/stat servers). Sure its spamable but they have their weaknesses like any other class. Theyre just still in the "new class overpowered" complain period like what monk and whitesmith and a bunch of other classes have been through.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: shane3x on Feb 25, 2007, 10:56 pm
Wasnt this spose to be a talk on why gunslingers suck (Which they dont)

*Rings up gravity

Shane: Hello, Id like to know why you havent made gunslingers better yet

Gravity: Gunslingers? you got the right game?

Shane:t his is gravity? creators of ragnarok online?

Gravity:yes, but what the hell is a gunslinger?

Shane: Its a class in ragnarok

Gravity: ummm, yeah sure, im sending a free pizza to your house, thanks for calling

Shane:how do you know where i live? WAIT, answer my question

Gravity: beep beep

Shane : your still on the line =_=
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Sylence on Jun 03, 2007, 06:48 am
Here is a proof that gunslingers don't suck
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa89/Sylence115/screenLaoROSHR002.jpg)

Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: FacelessRed on Oct 18, 2008, 10:06 pm
extended classes don't work outside of the regular RO stat / level system. most of there skill's don't factor in the extra stat's and level bonus' etc. there HP formula also doesnt take into account the extra levels to be of any use whatsoever beyond 99. i used to try and play some of the extended classes on a high rate.. once u get over 100 make a real class. cant say anything about snipers, never played one.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Anti-Static Foam Cleaner on Oct 19, 2008, 03:18 am
This thread now spans over two years.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Orange on Oct 20, 2008, 07:07 am
HE S IN HR AND IN HR ALL OF THE NON SINX/CHAMP CLASSES SUCK

QFT.

When gunslingers first came out, i made one and fell in love i liked them more then snipers, even today they are around as good as snipers imo(Thats damn great, considering they dont have to reborn)

EDIT: Sylence, that is proof you play on a super high rate server, i can get a screenie of a novice doing 1mil dmg with 199 aspd, does that make them godly? No.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 20, 2008, 07:30 am
if you knew how to play a gunslinger you wouldnt say they suck. jesus just get a butcher or destoryer then use gatling fever and you can be attacking at the fastest possible speed (depending on gears & server aspd cap)

splash damage skill and a shotty can own large areas of monsters/people and spamming bullet shower with lots of dex and luk can own aswell.

Vet Person (GS) > non vet other class.

Hmm. The truth is, they suck. Woot! In 99/70s with no customs at least.

Vet Person (any trans class) > Vet Person (GS)

The truth, plain and simple. I hope it doesn't hurt.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Littlechan on Oct 20, 2008, 08:21 am
but, how about this?

more vet person (GS)>vet person (any trans class)
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Hutchy on Oct 20, 2008, 08:52 am
People who know how to play their classes are going to be better than anyone who doesn't, I think. Sure, one class can be another's weakness (like... Pokemon?! :O) but if the person who's supposed to have the advantage is unfamiliar with or doesn't know how to play that class, he's going to lose the upper hand.

Classes don't suck just because people can't play them well, though. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. You just have to learn the ins and outs and all the little nuances by spending time on that character instead of expecting godliness to be handed to you.

But then again I come from a low rate, so feel free to disregard all of that.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Rudolph Zyaber on Oct 20, 2008, 08:57 am
the problem I find with the class is everything focuses around pistols and to a lesser extent rifles.  Shotguns are slow, have long aftercast delays on skills and despite their destructive power and splash damage AoE, are just not as good as the things pistols and rifles can do.

Pistols can strip weapon at range, do huge rapid shower damage, huge AoE Melee based damage with Desperado and also make effective use of high aspd with that skill that is similar to double attack.  They can also make effective use of the coin skills, especially fling.

Rifles have more power and range but less spammability.

The grenade skill is a joke no matter what server you're on.  SP cost is too high even with 99 int, 99 dex build. and the skill build to get there leaves you with little to anything else but shotgun skills.

I have seen GS's do huge damage on MVPs with fling on mid-high rates, but in a low-rate environment or one where you don't change the class majorly, i.e. buffing up their HP/SP values, changing skills etc, they really really stink compared to regular trans-classes.

IMO however, they are better than snipers if played right.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 20, 2008, 09:11 am
it's true that GS's are strong and i've seen them do great damage and all with the right gears, but trans classes w/ the right gears would almost always outdamage GS... sure Full Buster's strong, but how can it compare to snipers' FA? Raped Shower could be stronger than DS but it has more animation delay and is less spammable... there's no comparison to GS and snipers it's just that GS has multiple playing styles, but don't expect those to be enough to match a trans class
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 20, 2008, 10:16 am
There is no way GS can be of more value than trans classes in a 99/70, no customs environment.

A Sniper fully outclasses GS. Sharpshooting under poem already does much more DPS. Disarm is useless. If you don't have 24/7 FCP during WoE, gg. Your guild deserves to lose to another guild with a GS. The power of any GS offensive skill will always be outpotted easily by any decently geared trans class.

It has no utility, whereas a Sniper's Detect, Disarm Trap, Trapping and more are either highly coveted or essential in WoE environment.

AND. A more vet GS will NOT > any vet trans class. Because a GS has an effective limit. Once you hit that limit, no matter how skilled you are, you cannot win against any other decent player with a trans class.


Get that into your thick skulls. I'm sorry if I sounded rude, but all that advantage/disadvantage s*** just doesn't apply to GSes. It's subpar, really.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: CookieEater on Oct 21, 2008, 07:58 am
People, please stop the eternal bickering.
There's a simple fact and that is that Gunslingers do not suck. They have a couple of ways to deal serious damage (Desperado is easily around 25k (without reductions) and can go up to nearly 50k damage AoE (1-10 hits, 550% damage per hit... average of 2750% damage per cast), especially with support (Full Buster when used under Magic Strings makes you want to have that 'kill frenzy' sound from the GTA series).

There are a few issues with the class, yes. Firstly they have an absurd skill tree, secondly their HP mod is weird and thirdly they're far behind on gear (especially when it comes to elemental ammunition). These issues do not remove the fact that any player, who knows what he is doing, can kill Trans classes.

Now, you may not like the class. That's fine, I don't like Assasins and want them to vanish from the face of the Earth. You don't have to play a Gunslinger, and I don't have to play an Assasin.


EDIT: ...why isn't this in the Job Discussion section?

Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 21, 2008, 08:59 am
GS don't suck, it's just that they just don't match up to trans classes even when fully geared. especially trans that only need one button to spam. plus they can't equip wools/tidals. but i still like the class
 
both of my main chars are SinX and GS :P
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Hutchy on Oct 21, 2008, 09:06 am
No single class sucks. It depends on how well you play them (and that statement includes what gears you hunt for your char, your build, your strategies, everything). It is entirely dependent on YOU to make your char worth playing.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Rudolph Zyaber on Oct 21, 2008, 09:31 am
No single class sucks. It depends on how well you play them (and that statement includes what gears you hunt for your char, your build, your strategies, everything). It is entirely dependent on YOU to make your char worth playing.

completely bullcrap statement when considering the HP/SP modifiers on GS as well as their lack of a shield based item and the amount of range resistance based items in the game makes them competitivly null on most servers.

Horn card = 35%
2x Alligator card = 10%
Yellow Bandana = 10%
Long Mace = 10% if aco class
Noxious card = 10%range/10%neutral
65/75% total ranged resist, not including w/e custom crap you have on your servers giving more ranged resistance.  Any decent player would also be able to swap thara and horn using BM.

I'd have to say that GS just don't cut it unless seriously amped up to meet sniper standards.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Anti-Static Foam Cleaner on Oct 21, 2008, 09:33 am
Except Mastersmiths.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 21, 2008, 10:14 am
Gawd, you guys just don't want to acknowledge it, eh? GSes ARE subpar.

If a skilled player uses a novice, he can probably kill a noob with a trans class too. That does not mean that novices aren't subpar, is meant for PvP, is great at killing and surviving.

Desperado 50k damage, and Full Buster killing spree my foot. Really. Either your opponents have a negative IQ or they are really, really undergeared. Like wearing Tuxedo to WoE. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but still.

And can you guys stop with the "No class sucks, it's up to you to play it well"? It doesn't make you look any more intelligent, clever, whatever. GS is subpar, it's the truth, in a purely -trans classes outclasses it in all areas- sense. Someone might kill trans classes with a GS, but does that mean it isn't subpar? NO! It just means that the player is skilled. A 110% effort from the player, while being fully disadvantaged using a subpar class.

Zyaber is right. Completely bullcrap indeed. And even if you guys have epic gear, you do understand that heaping those gear on a trans class is much, much more wise and effective?
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Hutchy on Oct 21, 2008, 10:20 am
No single class sucks. It depends on how well you play them (and that statement includes what gears you hunt for your char, your build, your strategies, everything). It is entirely dependent on YOU to make your char worth playing.

completely bullcrap statement when considering the HP/SP modifiers on GS as well as their lack of a shield based item and the amount of range resistance based items in the game makes them competitivly null on most servers.

Horn card = 35%
2x Alligator card = 10%
Yellow Bandana = 10%
Long Mace = 10% if aco class
Noxious card = 10%range/10%neutral
65/75% total ranged resist, not including w/e custom crap you have on your servers giving more ranged resistance.  Any decent player would also be able to swap thara and horn using BM.

I'd have to say that GS just don't cut it unless seriously amped up to meet sniper standards.

(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1570/x62k3hpxuhcdvng5en4sfnkzm7.jpg)

Cry more please.

Yes I understand that there are other classes that are BETTER. But that doesn't mean OMG GUNSLINGERS SUCK FACE AND SHOULD NEVER BE PLAYED OMGZ. If you want a challenge, then try to make yours good, is what I'm saying.

But I forgot, apparently I'm a dumb b**** who knows nothing about this game, so I'll just step out of this thread. :>
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 21, 2008, 11:25 am
please... no flaming... to get things right:

GS can never beat trans class - CHECK
GS can never have great gears like trans - CHECK
GS can never have the capabitiltes of a Sniper - CHECK
GS rarely, if possible, WoE - CHECK
GS, based on your opinions, "haha worst class evar! LOLOLOL" - CHECK

but why should RO only be limited to elitists? hmm? do you wana see a server only w/ leet woe-type classes and autotrading merchies? if you do, then GOD i don't wana be on that server! GS are not leet clases and they could possibly be the worst for all i care. buy why do ppl play them? cause they want a new approach on things. having fun is just as important in ro. having a server that's 30% sinx's, 30% snipers, 30% champs/creators, 9.9% whatever and 0.1%-0% GS is what you guys wana see? RO was meant to be fun and enjoyed not some strict "for WOE/PVP only" game sheesh!

sorry bout my rant. but it's just that nowadays RO's just left w/ ppl who think that they are too leet that they will never appreaciate the other features of the game and only stick to the common (yawn)leet gears/classes...

i play GS for fun, not cause "WOOOO!!! I WANA PWN SOME PRO SINX/CHAMP/SNIPER/trans whatever!"
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 21, 2008, 09:00 pm
FINALLY!! That's the point I've been trying to make across. Good thing there are still people with some sense in here.

Yes! GSes are NOT meant for WoE/PvP, unlike what some people have said in the previous pages. GSes, you are meant to have fun with! In fact, I like the idea of a GS too, it's cool to be shooting things with your arsenal of firearms.

BTW, you guys will notice that I never said GSes suck as a whole class, only in PvP/WoE, and should never be played in the game. I only keep stressing that GSes are subpar to trans classes.

Anyway, even in an elitist server filled with WoE classes only, you won't find such a heavy imbalance of jobs... There'll still be more or less an almost equal ratio across all 13 trans classes. That is, if they really are elitists and not some "I R T3h skilledz sinxx".

EDIT: If only you guys had admitted from the start that GS is some sort of gimmick class and not meant for serious PvP/WoE this argument would never have happened. However there were people trying to defend a GS's killing power and survivability against other players. For god's sake, man, even if it's your favorite class you still have to face the truth.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: laoganma on Oct 21, 2008, 09:26 pm
never, never say a specific job sucks because some elitists with 10 years RO experience will always try to proof how good it is and how suck you are.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 21, 2008, 09:33 pm
never, never say a specific job sucks because some elitists with 10 years RO experience will always try to proof how good it is and how suck you are.

I lol'd?
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Rudolph Zyaber on Oct 22, 2008, 12:36 am
@hutchy   By all means post more childish pictures and put more words in my mouth.  It makes your argument (or lack of one) that much more convincing.  I never flamed you so try and show some common courtesy here.  Gs's on my last server MVP and to some extent PVP quite well but only with heavy customization.  They still get stopped hard by the gears I mentioned.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 22, 2008, 12:37 am
Gawd, you guys just don't want to acknowledge it, eh? GSes ARE subpar.

If a skilled player uses a novice, he can probably kill a noob with a trans class too. That does not mean that novices aren't subpar, is meant for PvP, is great at killing and surviving.

Desperado 50k damage, and Full Buster killing spree my foot. Really. Either your opponents have a negative IQ or they are really, really undergeared. Like wearing Tuxedo to WoE. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but still.

And can you guys stop with the "No class sucks, it's up to you to play it well"? It doesn't make you look any more intelligent, clever, whatever. GS is subpar, it's the truth, in a purely -trans classes outclasses it in all areas- sense. Someone might kill trans classes with a GS, but does that mean it isn't subpar? NO! It just means that the player is skilled. A 110% effort from the player, while being fully disadvantaged using a subpar class.

Zyaber is right. Completely bullcrap indeed. And even if you guys have epic gear, you do understand that heaping those gear on a trans class is much, much more wise and effective?

dude, i'm sorry to say this but my post was actually against to what you say... to me, you're one of those elitist ppl who would rather avoid classes like GS and only prefer servers w/ only trans chars w/ trans only gears...

what i'm trying to say was that i don't want to see servers where ppl think RO is ONLY based on PVP/WOE. as far as i go, that's how you look at things...

and then you say, you'll "try" a GS. why not actually play it seriously? unless of course, you can't stand losing in PVP or dying in maps/dungeons and would rather go for, oh say, your PRO TRANS PWN MACHINE!

anyways i enjoy RO as a whole and not solely for WOE/PVP purposes even when using them so-called "crap" classes
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Anti-Static Foam Cleaner on Oct 22, 2008, 01:19 am
I am pretty sure extended classes are balanced to be somewhere between 2nd jobs and trans.

Why, on Valkyrie there's quite a few ninjas and taekwons for that very reason, and some of them are literally wiping the floor with undergeared 2nds in WoE.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 22, 2008, 02:11 am
Yes, I prefer WoE/PvP chars only. No, I don't think RO is based on WoE/PvP only.

Look. This is where you're wrong. Why do people want to play a game? Because they wanna have fun. Am I right? Now, fun means different things to different people. Some think WoE is fun, some PvP, some PvE, some think playing a subpar class is fun. If I think that an elitist server is my idea of fun, is that a sin? I won't deny that GS is fun to some players, all I'm trying to say is that it is subpar to trans classes.

I think GSes are cool, but I'm not going to try them, because it is a fact they do not function well at all at top tier WoE. If I play a GS, I'm not having fun. And I play a game to have fun! Now do you get it? I do NOT think RO is based only on those 2 aspects! It's just that I play RO solely for those 2 aspects.

And in this thread, I'm only trying to say that: "Look. I know you're having fun with that subpar class, but please don't try to make it sound more than what it really is". That's all.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 22, 2008, 06:49 am
well that's good to hear... cause a lotta ppl are tem so-called elitists, glad you agree that GS's DO NOT SUCK and that you agree that RO ain't only about WOE/PVP... it's ppl like these (not you ok?) who think that GS's should never exist in a server...
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: CookieEater on Oct 22, 2008, 10:07 am
Desperado 50k damage, and Full Buster killing spree my foot. Really. Either your opponents have a negative IQ or they are really, really undergeared. Like wearing Tuxedo to WoE. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but still.
You missed two little words in my post. They said 'without reduction'. Since WoE isn't everything and some people actually do PvM at level 99/70, not to mention that not every class has access to all reduction gear, I always refer to unmodified damage. I personally never do WoE because my CPU does not live through it without seizures of epic proportions.

And I too will agree that Gunslingers are below the standard of Trans Classes. As I addressed in my previous posts, they're left behind on many points. For PvP/WoE there are obviously better options if you want to get a high win chance. For PvM they provide good damage and fun nonetheless.
I only said that they're not pure crap, as some people desperatly try to proclaim. Not saying that you are, you actually seem to be quite reasonable despite the tone of your writing.

Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 22, 2008, 10:30 am
Not saying that you are, you actually seem to be quite reasonable despite the tone of your writing.



off-topic

was that for me? cause well i'm just tired of the majority of ppl trying to monopolize RO for themselves making them think they're gods and all. saying that classes that aren't the most wanted in pvp/woe do suck and that they look down on others far too much. always aypping that they're the best blah blah blah even though they use guides and such. it's just this inconsiderate and the feeling of being an elitist atmosphere that's making me like this... sorry if it bothers you and sorry if it wasn't meant for me either
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Sarin on Oct 22, 2008, 10:59 am
Just for all those saying OMG GS SUX. It's not the class but the player that matters. Any class is playable if the player is good enough.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Rudolph Zyaber on Oct 22, 2008, 11:24 am
Just for all those saying OMG GS SUX. It's not the class but the player that matters. Any class is playable if the player is good enough.

and what we're saying is that if two players of equal skill play a GS vs Name any other class, more than half the other classes will kill the GS.

Like I said earlier, I like the GS class, it has some useful skills,  Fling being one of them, especially during MVPing, also Disarm is debilitating, taking some classes out of the fight altogether from a safe range if they don't have FCP on.  They also have some half decent DPS. 

What I'm trying to argue is that skills, stats and concept-wise, the class is just fundamentally flawed.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 22, 2008, 11:33 am

What I'm trying to argue is that skills, stats and concept-wise, the class is just fundamentally flawed.

my BIGGEST prob is... what's w/ the +7 luck bonus? pretty useless...
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Sarin on Oct 22, 2008, 11:47 am
Just for all those saying OMG GS SUX. It's not the class but the player that matters. Any class is playable if the player is good enough.

and what we're saying is that if two players of equal skill play a GS vs Name any other class, more than half the other classes will kill the GS.

Like I said earlier, I like the GS class, it has some useful skills,  Fling being one of them, especially during MVPing, also Disarm is debilitating, taking some classes out of the fight altogether from a safe range if they don't have FCP on.  They also have some half decent DPS. 

What I'm trying to argue is that skills, stats and concept-wise, the class is just fundamentally flawed.

So...since full support priest will eventually lose to almost anyone, are you saying that it is flawed because of that? Not every class is straightforward 1on1 killer. GS is more like fire support, relying on his teammates to keep enemies off him. He has high ranged damage, and better direct disabling capabilites at range than sniper. Again, I say it's about how you use the class.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 22, 2008, 12:01 pm
@dean: that post was meant for me, lol.

@cookie: i was having a bad day, hence the tone. Sorry if i offended anyone.

@sarin: you do realise that those 2 points are worth nothing in woe? Gs damage in woe is at best negligible. And disarm is useless. Fcp owns all such skills. 
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Sarin on Oct 22, 2008, 12:19 pm
you haven't seen a damage good GS can done, did you? Bullet shower, desperado and shotgun frenzy are VERY powerful when used properly. Or, for example...gatling GS, with breeze card in his gatling? Bleeding for everyone...bullseye skill can be used to try coma on very tough opponents, etc...anything is possible, you just have to find the way.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Hutchy on Oct 22, 2008, 12:31 pm
To summarize~

Gunslingers, as a class, can't really surpass fully-geared trans classes. However, they're fun to play.


Yup.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: CookieEater on Oct 22, 2008, 12:50 pm
@cookie: i was having a bad day, hence the tone. Sorry if i offended anyone.
You are forgiven. Have a cookie.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Dean Stark on Oct 22, 2008, 01:03 pm
well my bad then  :P

find it funny that someone was talking to me since i'm kinda new here hehe
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Oct 22, 2008, 09:37 pm
Or, for example...gatling GS, with breeze card in his gatling? Bleeding for everyone...bullseye skill can be used to try coma on very tough opponents, etc...anything is possible, you just have to find the way.

Ah. Now this I would accept as part of a GS's advantage. Not damage. Really. After all the reduction gears, it REALLY is negligible. But again, the server(s) I play on are old servers, so almost everyone has overupgraded eq sets and at least standard reduction gear.

However, yes, even though a GS can do those, is it really worth trading one for a standard geared Sniper, let's say? Who can do more? Who has higher survivability and utility? Furthermore, a GS is really limited if he can only do status effects. Because I can't see a GS having enough stat points to have enough VIT (90) to resist stun from 24/7 Screamers under Poem, and still have enough DEX and AGI for killing power. And, lol. I forgot about this extremely important point. They die to what? 1 AD?

BTW. Who has a guild with full time slim potion pitching creators? If your guild has those, I can't see anyone not agreeing with my "only killers are sinx/champ/creo" statement.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Artariko on Oct 27, 2008, 09:40 am
it depends on how u use it really dude =P
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: BentoBox on Dec 27, 2008, 10:52 pm
Sigh.

You don't need agi on a PvP/WoE oriented gunslinger. You're not going to take anyone down by ctrl+clicking. Bleeding is a s*** status ailment. Flee is useless, yadayada. Therefore, you'd only need to invest your stat points in 4 stats, dex>vit>str>int. You can get 130 dex while sporting 97vit (which nets you about 10k hp) and 3x base str for weight capacity.

There are only 3 skills worth using in WoE/PvP and these are: Desperado, Full Buster and Bullet Shower. Dealing 550% per hit(for a maximum of 5500%), 1300% and 1000% respectively. FB deals better damage than Falcon Assault agaisnt geared opponents and in PvM due to the fact that it can be endowed. So in the burst damage department, the GS takes the cake. Desperado has the potential to deal as much burst damage as an EDP SB, and while they are not given weapons comparable to slotted infils (though they do have something nifty to take advantage of, which I will talk about later) with bragi (which you should have in WoE), your general DPS is much greater (than a WS' even!). The only obvious downside is that you will not be wearing a thara while using the skill, and it forces you into melee position, but if inside a mob or a recalled party, you will be able to get a few kills before people spread out and are able to target you amidst the mass. When using FB and BS though, the lack of thara is as much of an hindrance as it is to Snipers while they're DSing. Fact is, you shouldn't be using DS/FB/BS in close range, in which case you can switch to your shield, so the lack of thara is a moot point if you're any decent of a player.

Now about the little trick I made allusion to earlier... We know that you need a pistol type weapon to initiate desperado, but you may switch to any other type of weapon right after using the skill and the latter will take said weapon into account. A bit like a Clown who would cast AV on something and rapidly switch to an ice pick, thus making his AV's dmg depend on his STR. One way GSes can take advantage of that is by switching off to the strongest weapon available to them, and that is the inferno (grenade launcher). The latter also has elemental spheres that it can use, which greatly helps with Desperado's dmg in PvM.

With an Abysmal knight carded Inferno, and blind spheres (shadow element), you'd deal an average of 11517dmg per hit on Angeling, which has 55k hp. That basically means that you can one shot angeling on average. With a similar setup, you can take Eddga down in 4 seconds, GTB in 8s, Arc Angeling in 9s, Ghostring in 6s, Kasa in 2s, Necromancer in 5s, Ktullanux in a little less than 3mins (with Desp dealing 34k on average), Moonie in 3s....  Valkyrie Randgris in 96s. All of these values being average times, and that's without even considering bragi which basically halves everything. While the class does require extra support to function (sw spam+bragi), it is nonetheless a serious contender in damage dealing potential, and is thus one of the best mob clearers in the game.

Back to WoE, thats a spammable 2750%(avg) AoE skill with a 1 second delay reducable by bragi. What is there not to love? I don't really understand why people are akin to compare them to Snipers when they don't even fill in the same roles. Snipers trap, deal status ailments with FAS and AS and support dmg with DS and FA. GSes beat Snipers in the support damage department, but they don't have traps nor are they any good at dealing statuses. In all honesty, I don't see how traps are that great, though it really depends on the castle, and type of WoE (FE vs SE). In SE, traps are nigh useless because of the wide areas, and in FE, once the traps have been walked over, there is nothing you can do other than wait till your guild cleared everybody around your emp room so that you can set your traps again; in other words, in a field battle, traps are pretty useless too. GS does shine a lot more in field battles with Desperado and better overall dmging potential.

And no GS is going to die to 1 AB if he's even remotely geared for WoE. AB does not deal 10k.

And then there's disarm, which, while not having that great of a success rate, is the only ranged divesting move in the game.

Some people should either 1.play the damn class or 2.inform themselves before spewing BS.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Dec 27, 2008, 11:46 pm
Wanna bet AB can deal 10k, or at least close to it? Get a max INT Creator and see for yourself. With a GS's lousy HP modifier and inability to wear Valk Armor for stun resistance, either he gets low VIT, dies while stun-locked due to pure Dazzler Gypsies, or die to 1-2 AB with high VIT.

Again, FCP is mandatory in WoE. And do not underestimate the ability of pros to single you out even if you're stacked in a mob.

I still can't understand how you think GS'es can deal decent burst damage. Never seen one which could. Have you even taken into account the DEF, and reduction gears that WoE characters should have? BTW, you're spewing rubbish when you say that it has the potential to outdamage an EDP SB. Not all SinX'es have rubbish gears. Wait. WOW. You just said Desperado, didn't you? Good job comparing an AoE to a single-target skill.

Are we even discussing WoE on the same setting? Is this about 50-player-or-more guilds pitting themselves against each other, with proper job composition, resource spamming, individuals with more than 50 DEF on average? Where Creators do not scrimp on ABs and spam them whenever they can, and use their Vanils only when about to bomb enemies? Where SinXs EDP every minute, Champions spam Royal Jellies and use Berries, and there are pure Slim Pitching Creators spamming Slim Pitch on the guild during every encounter with the enemy? Where Profs spam Web, Dispel and Land Prot, Paladins spam Devotion, Clowns and Gypsies refresh songs every other moment?
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: BentoBox on Dec 28, 2008, 12:39 am
Wanna bet AB can deal 10k, or at least close to it? Get a max INT Creator and see for yourself. With a GS's lousy HP modifier and inability to wear Valk Armor for stun resistance, either he gets low VIT, dies while stun-locked due to pure Dazzler Gypsies, or die to 1-2 AB with high VIT.

I've had my fair share of AB tanking and with nearly 100vit (I used to play a stalker), a cranial, a feather beret, raydric/nox and 2 alligator rosaries, AB dealt about 7k tops. How about you go try it out on RMS' test server. Get a 130/140int creo and test AB's dmg on a fully geared character and then apply the woe reductions and see what kind of damage that nets you. If your CP clowns/gypsies drop to unlexed/unbragi'd ABs, then I'm sorry but they're just bad. And why bring up stun-lock when I clearly stated that my GS would be stun immune?

Again, FCP is mandatory in WoE. And do not underestimate the ability of pros to single you out even if you're stacked in a mob.

FCP is mandatory of course, but you and I know very well that it is wishful thinking to think that every single member of a guild will rush you FCP'd. Fact is, nobody would EVER get fullstripped if that was the case, but it still happens. I think you know why. And nowhere did I say that it was impossible for people to single you out, but it does take time. Why do you think stalkers often land recalls on their opponent's bragi lines? Most of the time, people aren't able to single said stalker amongst the mass in time.

I still can't understand how you think GS'es can deal decent burst damage. Never seen one which could. Have you even taken into account the DEF, and reduction gears that WoE characters should have? BTW, you're spewing rubbish when you say that it has the potential to outdamage an EDP SB. Not all SinX'es have rubbish gears. Wait. WOW. You just said Desperado, didn't you? Good job comparing an AoE to a single-target skill.

Yeah, and I've yet to see anyone actually bother playing the GS class seriously so the fact that you haven't seen it is irrelevant. And where did you see me say it could outdamage an EDP SB? Here is what I said:

Desperado has the potential to deal as much burst damage as an EDP SB, and while they are not given weapons comparable to slotted infils (though they do have something nifty to take advantage of, which I will talk about later) with bragi (which you should have in WoE), your general DPS is much greater (than a WS' even!).

DPS = damage per second. EDP SB is a burst skill, that is why it can often one-shot people. But is it no DPS skill, like Cart termination is. The latter deals heavy damage over time while the former deals a big load in a very short time. Desperado is comparable to CT in this sense. It won't one shot anyone, but just like bowling bash spammed in strings, the skill shines as a heavy damage dealer over time. And I thought the comparison was obvious when highlighting Desperado's % ratio being of 5500% which is somewhat close to EDP SB's (around 6400% if my calculations are correct. That's EDP SB+link+boned infiltrator). I then conceeded that while Gunslingers didn't have weapons such as sins' infil to boost their dmg to sky-high values, they could still switch to the inferno to make their damage dealing quite respectable. I then threw some numbers displaying the amount of time it would take for a GS to down some mvps/minis, just to reinforce the fact that they have above par dps.

Are we even discussing WoE on the same setting? Is this about 50-player-or-more guilds pitting themselves against each other, with proper job composition, resource spamming, individuals with more than 50 DEF on average? Where Creators do not scrimp on ABs and spam them whenever they can, and use their Vanils only when about to bomb enemies? Where SinXs EDP every minute, Champions spam Royal Jellies and use Berries, and there are pure Slim Pitching Creators spamming Slim Pitch on the guild during every encounter with the enemy? Where Profs spam Web, Dispel and Land Prot, Paladins spam Devotion, Clowns and Gypsies refresh songs every other moment?

Yes. Why you wasted your time writing all of that is beyond me =p. Your whole argument basically revolved around the usefulness of a Gunslinger compared to a Sniper's. It was my intention to make it clear that both classes while both being ranged, shined in very different situations. Are you going to tell people not to make ninjas because high wizards are much better, even though you know fully well they don't even work the same way? Because that's exactly what you've been doing here.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Dec 28, 2008, 06:20 am
You're not going to be using a Cranial all of the time. It is definite there will be times where you are caught w/o a Cranial. Like while you're FB-ing and someone ADs you. Even if it does 7k, note that I said 1-2 ABs.

Why stun immune? I prefer not to include MVP cards, thank you very much. If so, you might as well be saying that a GS will be effective, ONLY if one has an Orc Hero card. And if you're on official, you'll find your guild leader screaming at you to pass it to classes which will benefit from it much, much more, such as Champs/ Creators/ SinXs/ Professors.

BTW, no, it isn't wishful thinking, my guild does indeed FCP everyone as a b4-battle prep. However, it is rare, and not right to expect it of everyone, I'll admit that.

[email protected] the potential. Nah, that wouldn't be really what I call potential. I prefer to take countless variables into account before stating whether something has 'potential'.

Quote
Yes. Why you wasted your time writing all of that is beyond me =p. Your whole argument basically revolved around the usefulness of a Gunslinger compared to a Sniper's. It was my intention to make it clear that both classes while both being ranged, shined in very different situations. Are you going to tell people not to make ninjas because high wizards are much better, even though you know fully well they don't even work the same way? Because that's exactly what you've been doing here.

If you read through my previous posts, you'll see that I concede that GS'es play a different role as compared to other trans classes. I have debunked arguments involving both and pointed out that they serve very different purposes. However, you can actually weigh what the classes offer. In a Sniper VS GS situation, I would rather pick the Sniper because of what one has to offer, even if they are different. Purely because the GS does not shine well in what it does. If I wanted ranged DPS, I will not pick the GS, period. In fact, I will only pick AB Creators, SBK SinXs and Sharpshooting Snipers. If I wanted Desperado-type DPS, I rather pick MA SinXs, because of what else it has to offer.

It is, in short, too limited, and nowhere near the best at what it does. In WoE.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: CookieEater on Dec 28, 2008, 12:23 pm
I'm pretty sure we finished and concluded this argument. Please let it rot in pieces.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: BentoBox on Dec 28, 2008, 03:10 pm
No YOU.

You're not going to be using a Cranial all of the time. It is definite there will be times where you are caught w/o a Cranial. Like while you're FB-ing and someone ADs you. Even if it does 7k, note that I said 1-2 ABs.

God, do you even know how to switch? You can switch directly to your cranial during FB's animation, just like SinXes generally switch to theirs during SB's animation. You should effectively never have your cranial off of you if you're using FB off-strings. And a lot of classes dies to 2 ABs, (if they don't pot) so I don't get your point. You're not going to tell a CP clown now to 100vit because one class can potentially two shot you.

Quote
Why stun immune? I prefer not to include MVP cards, thank you very much. If so, you might as well be saying that a GS will be effective, ONLY if one has an Orc Hero card. And if you're on official, you'll find your guild leader screaming at you to pass it to classes which will benefit from it much, much more, such as Champs/ Creators/ SinXs/ Professors.

Because 97vit grants you status immunity? And I clearly said:

You can get 130 dex while sporting 97vit (which nets you about 10k hp) and 3x base str for weight capacity.

No need for orc hero card. There is simply no where else a GS would need to spend his points. Agi is useless. Read plz.

Quote
BTW, no, it isn't wishful thinking, my guild does indeed FCP everyone as a b4-battle prep. However, it is rare, and not right to expect it of everyone, I'll admit that.

Of course it does.

Quote
[email protected] the potential. Nah, that wouldn't be really what I call potential. I prefer to take countless variables into account before stating whether something has 'potential'.

What is it that is so hard to grasp about damaging potential? And what about WoE being a team effort renders you totally incapacitated when trying to think of situations where GSes could shine? Hell, if your guild FCPs every single member of your guild, what keeps your pallies from devoting that extra GS? If you send your tanks first to break a precast and they are successful, what prevents a GS from speed potting his way to the bragi line and taking down a few wiz with Desp? What countless variables is it that you take into account? Because it seems to me like you all you're doing is feed off 1v1 scenarios to prove a point (GS vs Creator in this instance). If High Wizards, Soul Linkers and TKMs are able to survive as long as they know what they're doing (as in not ramboing), why would it be so hard to conceive that a GS might actually know how to do his job and stand in the back providing support dps and rushing in when an opportunity arises?

Quote
If you read through my previous posts, you'll see that I concede that GS'es play a different role as compared to other trans classes. I have debunked arguments involving both and pointed out that they serve very different purposes. However, you can actually weigh what the classes offer. In a Sniper VS GS situation, I would rather pick the Sniper because of what one has to offer, even if they are different. Purely because the GS does not shine well in what it does. If I wanted ranged DPS, I will not pick the GS, period. In fact, I will only pick AB Creators, SBK SinXs and Sharpshooting Snipers. If I wanted Desperado-type DPS, I rather pick MA SinXs, because of what else it has to offer.

It is, in short, too limited, and nowhere near the best at what it does. In WoE.

MA's dps is s***, silly :P. And nowhere was it brought up that a GS could effectively replace trans classes. And that is quite obvious when taking into consideration the fact that one of these takes 3x less effort to make. But guess what, they still have their uses and that's all I'm saying. Ninjas suck donkey ds in WoE too, but that water evasion skill remains very potent in a precast. Star Glads are 2nd rate emp breakers, bad killers and do no sport more than 10k hp themselves, but well played TKMs still do fine and do manage to steal emps from time to time.

And about the whole picking ''X'' over ''Y'' ordeal, I personally don't know of many guilds who have the luxury of having a 100% attendance at every woe. I don't know of any that would actually recruit pure SBK sinxes for WoE either, but you did bring it up anyways so it seems anything is possible ;D.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Dec 28, 2008, 09:47 pm
So you're not going to endow FB then? Good luck trying to even put a dent on anyone, lol. Of course I know how to switch, but when you're up against people that you're afraid of endowing after switching due to that small delay...yeah.

Hmm. Oh well. It's pretty hard to survive with 97 Vit as any other trans class (except for LK/Palas), much less a GS.

MA can be pretty good under Strings, with its effect, and with an Ice Pick/Imma Sword. About the rest, lol. Kinda depends on your server's rates :/
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Chimichanga on Dec 29, 2008, 01:18 am
Snipers are an underrated class. They can rape sinx with a ds+flee build in a lowrate. In highrates, i've seen snipers with tg cards that could pwn sinxs cuz the magnum break (probably custom since it's supposed to apply to just swordies) knocks them away and they can deal mean damage against sinx with a couple dses and their hp rate isn't bad. They're needed for woe. They are also extremely versatile in builds.

Gunslingers......great god. Their hp rate is just horrible. It's literally a gimmick class imo. They can't compete that well with the other classes since they're only limited to one pvp build- handguns. Even in their vit build, they're quite shoddy. Many gunslingers equips suggest agi builds but it just doesn't work and giving gunslingers a metaling/whitesmith card is inferior compared to giving a sniper/sinx those cards.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Omi on Dec 29, 2008, 09:59 am
Quote
magnum break (probably custom since it's supposed to apply to just swordies)

Effect of a Marine Sphere card, which gives level 3 magnum break to any character.

Quote
It's literally a gimmick class imo.

Gunslingers being one of the best non-transcendant PvPers and PvMers next to asssassins, they really are a gimmicky class.  Gunslingers aren't meant to be godly in PvP, theres simply too much against them reduction wise, skill wise etc.  Although they are very, very useful against non-transcendant classes, they still fall short against the capabilities of trancendants, which doesn't mean they can't kill them, it's just more difficult.

Full Buster and Desperado are skills which have the potential to tear through a characters HP.  In WoE if you place a gunslinger in the precast using desperado, I know many classes who would be likely to drop 1st cell.  Although they may have problems killing trancendant classes on their own, they can still do a good part in assisting to kill them.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: Littlechan on Dec 29, 2008, 10:17 am
a bit off topic:

about TG card. it's not only for swordman even though the desc says that

I use that card on high priest/sinx/creator, and they auto cast magnum break too

that's not custom :3

script:

{ bonus2 bAddRace,RC_NonBoss,20; bonus2 bAddRace,RC_Boss,20; bonus2 bAddRace2,5,20; bonus3 bAutoSpell,"SM_MAGNUM",10,30; },{},{}

I don't really understand about script, but I think I don't see anything that sets the magnum break auto cast only for swordman class XD
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: BentoBox on Dec 29, 2008, 02:54 pm
So you're not going to endow FB then? Good luck trying to even put a dent on anyone, lol. Of course I know how to switch, but when you're up against people that you're afraid of endowing after switching due to that small delay...yeah.

Hmm. Oh well. It's pretty hard to survive with 97 Vit as any other trans class (except for LK/Palas), much less a GS.

MA can be pretty good under Strings, with its effect, and with an Ice Pick/Imma Sword. About the rest, lol. Kinda depends on your server's rates :/

...You can use silver bullets... The only class you're not going to damage is the Sader class but you shouldn't be going after them anyways. As a plus, you get to deal even more damage against those pesty sinxes wearing ED on your emp. No need for endows. And with the aforementioned trick (inferno switching), you can basically FB with an inferno and the elemental sphere of your choice... You really need to read up about the class lol. I never had trouble surviving with 97 as a clown & stalker. AD is seriously overrated. You need to learn to pot more efficiently (as in no npc whites). Or actually get a char with that much vit so you can actually talk from first hand experience ._.''.

Lastly, you don't MA in strings to kill anyone, you MA to inflict status ailments. You're not going to kill anyone decent with it on neither low rates nor high rates.

I play low rates (<10x).

Snipers are an underrated class. They can rape sinx with a ds+flee build in a lowrate. In highrates, i've seen snipers with tg cards that could pwn sinxs cuz the magnum break (probably custom since it's supposed to apply to just swordies) knocks them away and they can deal mean damage against sinx with a couple dses and their hp rate isn't bad. They're needed for woe. They are also extremely versatile in builds.

Gunslingers......great god. Their hp rate is just horrible. It's literally a gimmick class imo. They can't compete that well with the other classes since they're only limited to one pvp build- handguns. Even in their vit build, they're quite shoddy. Many gunslingers equips suggest agi builds but it just doesn't work and giving gunslingers a metaling/whitesmith card is inferior compared to giving a sniper/sinx those cards.

No they can't rape SinXes in low rates considering all a SinX needs is one EDP SB with a triple ancient (if flee is really an issue, which it generally isn't because of their link), to down said Sniper. As soon as they backslide and cloak off-screen, you're set at a massive disadvantage. I don't know about high rates though, never ventured there :'(.

Also, not every class is meant to solo PvP. You don't see High Wizards doing exceptionally well alone. Same goes for whitesmiths. And what about Gypsies, Clowns, Stalkers...? They're all second rate PvPers when put up agaisnt champs and sinxes. Give any of these classes a HP to tag along with and they'll do miracles.

Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Dec 29, 2008, 09:15 pm
s***. Forgot about the ammo part. Still, remember Providence buff?. :X Lol, never did try to read them up in detail, since I've seen good players (that I know) use them to no effect.

Erm, I do play 97 VIT Clowns and Gypsies for WoE. I get raped by AD under 24/7 strings. Not one AD, but a few. Our enemy uses Skype to actually focus fire our members ._. Watch this and perhaps you'll understand.

http://vimeo.com/1393298 (http://vimeo.com/1393298) At about 4.20 - 4.25, you'll see what I mean about focus fire. Pneuma saved his butt.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: BentoBox on Dec 30, 2008, 12:06 am
I don't know of any non-swordie class that can actually tank stringed ADs easily, much less under focus fire. What I do know though, is that past 80vit, the gain in hp and pot efficiency outshines the gain in AD damage. And personally, I'd much rather have one class that troubles me much over getting stun-locked by string'd gypsies, in which case -anything- will kill you due to your unability to pot. As a clown/gypsy, unless you're going to rambo your way into the fray to slow grace or something, you aren't as likely to drop to ADs if you stand in the back, play your songs and spam fj/dazzler.

Funny vid lol, in the servers I've played all the action goes on in the emp room and pre-emp xD; in First Edition that is.
Title: Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
Post by: fluidin on Dec 30, 2008, 03:54 am
I know, I'm not arguing for the sake of having less VIT, hahas.

Just that a Gunslinger would drop much faster in these conditions. BTW, seen how pro those champions are? Lol. My Gypsy dies to them easily after our Profs are down, even if I stick inside the pack. With no one to web them, gg. And people still whine about pure Asura champs being noobs, gah.

In that vid, the server kinda has an unspoken rule not to touch the emp over much, since it's much more fun duking it out in the castle and seeing which guild is stronger, rather than have a mess of WoE with breaker SinXs speedpotting in and out of emp room, Ecalling everywhere, etc.

Probably because some of them have played RWC before; the setting is pretty much the same :X (Guilds duking it out with WoE rules)