RMS Home | Guide Writing | Test Server | New Servers | Latest Reviews

Author Topic: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more  (Read 31247 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fluidin

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #60 on: Oct 22, 2008, 09:37 pm »
Or, for example...gatling GS, with breeze card in his gatling? Bleeding for everyone...bullseye skill can be used to try coma on very tough opponents, etc...anything is possible, you just have to find the way.

Ah. Now this I would accept as part of a GS's advantage. Not damage. Really. After all the reduction gears, it REALLY is negligible. But again, the server(s) I play on are old servers, so almost everyone has overupgraded eq sets and at least standard reduction gear.

However, yes, even though a GS can do those, is it really worth trading one for a standard geared Sniper, let's say? Who can do more? Who has higher survivability and utility? Furthermore, a GS is really limited if he can only do status effects. Because I can't see a GS having enough stat points to have enough VIT (90) to resist stun from 24/7 Screamers under Poem, and still have enough DEX and AGI for killing power. And, lol. I forgot about this extremely important point. They die to what? 1 AD?

BTW. Who has a guild with full time slim potion pitching creators? If your guild has those, I can't see anyone not agreeing with my "only killers are sinx/champ/creo" statement.
XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.

Advertisement

Offline Artariko

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #61 on: Oct 27, 2008, 09:40 am »
it depends on how u use it really dude =P
The rich wage war, but its the poor who die.


Offline BentoBox

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #62 on: Dec 27, 2008, 10:52 pm »
Sigh.

You don't need agi on a PvP/WoE oriented gunslinger. You're not going to take anyone down by ctrl+clicking. Bleeding is a s*** status ailment. Flee is useless, yadayada. Therefore, you'd only need to invest your stat points in 4 stats, dex>vit>str>int. You can get 130 dex while sporting 97vit (which nets you about 10k hp) and 3x base str for weight capacity.

There are only 3 skills worth using in WoE/PvP and these are: Desperado, Full Buster and Bullet Shower. Dealing 550% per hit(for a maximum of 5500%), 1300% and 1000% respectively. FB deals better damage than Falcon Assault agaisnt geared opponents and in PvM due to the fact that it can be endowed. So in the burst damage department, the GS takes the cake. Desperado has the potential to deal as much burst damage as an EDP SB, and while they are not given weapons comparable to slotted infils (though they do have something nifty to take advantage of, which I will talk about later) with bragi (which you should have in WoE), your general DPS is much greater (than a WS' even!). The only obvious downside is that you will not be wearing a thara while using the skill, and it forces you into melee position, but if inside a mob or a recalled party, you will be able to get a few kills before people spread out and are able to target you amidst the mass. When using FB and BS though, the lack of thara is as much of an hindrance as it is to Snipers while they're DSing. Fact is, you shouldn't be using DS/FB/BS in close range, in which case you can switch to your shield, so the lack of thara is a moot point if you're any decent of a player.

Now about the little trick I made allusion to earlier... We know that you need a pistol type weapon to initiate desperado, but you may switch to any other type of weapon right after using the skill and the latter will take said weapon into account. A bit like a Clown who would cast AV on something and rapidly switch to an ice pick, thus making his AV's dmg depend on his STR. One way GSes can take advantage of that is by switching off to the strongest weapon available to them, and that is the inferno (grenade launcher). The latter also has elemental spheres that it can use, which greatly helps with Desperado's dmg in PvM.

With an Abysmal knight carded Inferno, and blind spheres (shadow element), you'd deal an average of 11517dmg per hit on Angeling, which has 55k hp. That basically means that you can one shot angeling on average. With a similar setup, you can take Eddga down in 4 seconds, GTB in 8s, Arc Angeling in 9s, Ghostring in 6s, Kasa in 2s, Necromancer in 5s, Ktullanux in a little less than 3mins (with Desp dealing 34k on average), Moonie in 3s....  Valkyrie Randgris in 96s. All of these values being average times, and that's without even considering bragi which basically halves everything. While the class does require extra support to function (sw spam+bragi), it is nonetheless a serious contender in damage dealing potential, and is thus one of the best mob clearers in the game.

Back to WoE, thats a spammable 2750%(avg) AoE skill with a 1 second delay reducable by bragi. What is there not to love? I don't really understand why people are akin to compare them to Snipers when they don't even fill in the same roles. Snipers trap, deal status ailments with FAS and AS and support dmg with DS and FA. GSes beat Snipers in the support damage department, but they don't have traps nor are they any good at dealing statuses. In all honesty, I don't see how traps are that great, though it really depends on the castle, and type of WoE (FE vs SE). In SE, traps are nigh useless because of the wide areas, and in FE, once the traps have been walked over, there is nothing you can do other than wait till your guild cleared everybody around your emp room so that you can set your traps again; in other words, in a field battle, traps are pretty useless too. GS does shine a lot more in field battles with Desperado and better overall dmging potential.

And no GS is going to die to 1 AB if he's even remotely geared for WoE. AB does not deal 10k.

And then there's disarm, which, while not having that great of a success rate, is the only ranged divesting move in the game.

Some people should either 1.play the damn class or 2.inform themselves before spewing BS.
« Last Edit: Dec 27, 2008, 10:56 pm by BentoBox »

Offline fluidin

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #63 on: Dec 27, 2008, 11:46 pm »
Wanna bet AB can deal 10k, or at least close to it? Get a max INT Creator and see for yourself. With a GS's lousy HP modifier and inability to wear Valk Armor for stun resistance, either he gets low VIT, dies while stun-locked due to pure Dazzler Gypsies, or die to 1-2 AB with high VIT.

Again, FCP is mandatory in WoE. And do not underestimate the ability of pros to single you out even if you're stacked in a mob.

I still can't understand how you think GS'es can deal decent burst damage. Never seen one which could. Have you even taken into account the DEF, and reduction gears that WoE characters should have? BTW, you're spewing rubbish when you say that it has the potential to outdamage an EDP SB. Not all SinX'es have rubbish gears. Wait. WOW. You just said Desperado, didn't you? Good job comparing an AoE to a single-target skill.

Are we even discussing WoE on the same setting? Is this about 50-player-or-more guilds pitting themselves against each other, with proper job composition, resource spamming, individuals with more than 50 DEF on average? Where Creators do not scrimp on ABs and spam them whenever they can, and use their Vanils only when about to bomb enemies? Where SinXs EDP every minute, Champions spam Royal Jellies and use Berries, and there are pure Slim Pitching Creators spamming Slim Pitch on the guild during every encounter with the enemy? Where Profs spam Web, Dispel and Land Prot, Paladins spam Devotion, Clowns and Gypsies refresh songs every other moment?
XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.

Offline BentoBox

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #64 on: Dec 28, 2008, 12:39 am »
Wanna bet AB can deal 10k, or at least close to it? Get a max INT Creator and see for yourself. With a GS's lousy HP modifier and inability to wear Valk Armor for stun resistance, either he gets low VIT, dies while stun-locked due to pure Dazzler Gypsies, or die to 1-2 AB with high VIT.

I've had my fair share of AB tanking and with nearly 100vit (I used to play a stalker), a cranial, a feather beret, raydric/nox and 2 alligator rosaries, AB dealt about 7k tops. How about you go try it out on RMS' test server. Get a 130/140int creo and test AB's dmg on a fully geared character and then apply the woe reductions and see what kind of damage that nets you. If your CP clowns/gypsies drop to unlexed/unbragi'd ABs, then I'm sorry but they're just bad. And why bring up stun-lock when I clearly stated that my GS would be stun immune?

Again, FCP is mandatory in WoE. And do not underestimate the ability of pros to single you out even if you're stacked in a mob.

FCP is mandatory of course, but you and I know very well that it is wishful thinking to think that every single member of a guild will rush you FCP'd. Fact is, nobody would EVER get fullstripped if that was the case, but it still happens. I think you know why. And nowhere did I say that it was impossible for people to single you out, but it does take time. Why do you think stalkers often land recalls on their opponent's bragi lines? Most of the time, people aren't able to single said stalker amongst the mass in time.

I still can't understand how you think GS'es can deal decent burst damage. Never seen one which could. Have you even taken into account the DEF, and reduction gears that WoE characters should have? BTW, you're spewing rubbish when you say that it has the potential to outdamage an EDP SB. Not all SinX'es have rubbish gears. Wait. WOW. You just said Desperado, didn't you? Good job comparing an AoE to a single-target skill.

Yeah, and I've yet to see anyone actually bother playing the GS class seriously so the fact that you haven't seen it is irrelevant. And where did you see me say it could outdamage an EDP SB? Here is what I said:

Desperado has the potential to deal as much burst damage as an EDP SB, and while they are not given weapons comparable to slotted infils (though they do have something nifty to take advantage of, which I will talk about later) with bragi (which you should have in WoE), your general DPS is much greater (than a WS' even!).

DPS = damage per second. EDP SB is a burst skill, that is why it can often one-shot people. But is it no DPS skill, like Cart termination is. The latter deals heavy damage over time while the former deals a big load in a very short time. Desperado is comparable to CT in this sense. It won't one shot anyone, but just like bowling bash spammed in strings, the skill shines as a heavy damage dealer over time. And I thought the comparison was obvious when highlighting Desperado's % ratio being of 5500% which is somewhat close to EDP SB's (around 6400% if my calculations are correct. That's EDP SB+link+boned infiltrator). I then conceeded that while Gunslingers didn't have weapons such as sins' infil to boost their dmg to sky-high values, they could still switch to the inferno to make their damage dealing quite respectable. I then threw some numbers displaying the amount of time it would take for a GS to down some mvps/minis, just to reinforce the fact that they have above par dps.

Are we even discussing WoE on the same setting? Is this about 50-player-or-more guilds pitting themselves against each other, with proper job composition, resource spamming, individuals with more than 50 DEF on average? Where Creators do not scrimp on ABs and spam them whenever they can, and use their Vanils only when about to bomb enemies? Where SinXs EDP every minute, Champions spam Royal Jellies and use Berries, and there are pure Slim Pitching Creators spamming Slim Pitch on the guild during every encounter with the enemy? Where Profs spam Web, Dispel and Land Prot, Paladins spam Devotion, Clowns and Gypsies refresh songs every other moment?

Yes. Why you wasted your time writing all of that is beyond me =p. Your whole argument basically revolved around the usefulness of a Gunslinger compared to a Sniper's. It was my intention to make it clear that both classes while both being ranged, shined in very different situations. Are you going to tell people not to make ninjas because high wizards are much better, even though you know fully well they don't even work the same way? Because that's exactly what you've been doing here.
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2008, 12:52 am by BentoBox »

Offline fluidin

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #65 on: Dec 28, 2008, 06:20 am »
You're not going to be using a Cranial all of the time. It is definite there will be times where you are caught w/o a Cranial. Like while you're FB-ing and someone ADs you. Even if it does 7k, note that I said 1-2 ABs.

Why stun immune? I prefer not to include MVP cards, thank you very much. If so, you might as well be saying that a GS will be effective, ONLY if one has an Orc Hero card. And if you're on official, you'll find your guild leader screaming at you to pass it to classes which will benefit from it much, much more, such as Champs/ Creators/ SinXs/ Professors.

BTW, no, it isn't wishful thinking, my guild does indeed FCP everyone as a b4-battle prep. However, it is rare, and not right to expect it of everyone, I'll admit that.

[email protected] the potential. Nah, that wouldn't be really what I call potential. I prefer to take countless variables into account before stating whether something has 'potential'.

Quote
Yes. Why you wasted your time writing all of that is beyond me =p. Your whole argument basically revolved around the usefulness of a Gunslinger compared to a Sniper's. It was my intention to make it clear that both classes while both being ranged, shined in very different situations. Are you going to tell people not to make ninjas because high wizards are much better, even though you know fully well they don't even work the same way? Because that's exactly what you've been doing here.

If you read through my previous posts, you'll see that I concede that GS'es play a different role as compared to other trans classes. I have debunked arguments involving both and pointed out that they serve very different purposes. However, you can actually weigh what the classes offer. In a Sniper VS GS situation, I would rather pick the Sniper because of what one has to offer, even if they are different. Purely because the GS does not shine well in what it does. If I wanted ranged DPS, I will not pick the GS, period. In fact, I will only pick AB Creators, SBK SinXs and Sharpshooting Snipers. If I wanted Desperado-type DPS, I rather pick MA SinXs, because of what else it has to offer.

It is, in short, too limited, and nowhere near the best at what it does. In WoE.
XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.

Offline CookieEater

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #66 on: Dec 28, 2008, 12:23 pm »
I'm pretty sure we finished and concluded this argument. Please let it rot in pieces.
B>Positive Karma, /w offers pl0x

Offline BentoBox

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #67 on: Dec 28, 2008, 03:10 pm »
No YOU.

You're not going to be using a Cranial all of the time. It is definite there will be times where you are caught w/o a Cranial. Like while you're FB-ing and someone ADs you. Even if it does 7k, note that I said 1-2 ABs.

God, do you even know how to switch? You can switch directly to your cranial during FB's animation, just like SinXes generally switch to theirs during SB's animation. You should effectively never have your cranial off of you if you're using FB off-strings. And a lot of classes dies to 2 ABs, (if they don't pot) so I don't get your point. You're not going to tell a CP clown now to 100vit because one class can potentially two shot you.

Quote
Why stun immune? I prefer not to include MVP cards, thank you very much. If so, you might as well be saying that a GS will be effective, ONLY if one has an Orc Hero card. And if you're on official, you'll find your guild leader screaming at you to pass it to classes which will benefit from it much, much more, such as Champs/ Creators/ SinXs/ Professors.

Because 97vit grants you status immunity? And I clearly said:

You can get 130 dex while sporting 97vit (which nets you about 10k hp) and 3x base str for weight capacity.

No need for orc hero card. There is simply no where else a GS would need to spend his points. Agi is useless. Read plz.

Quote
BTW, no, it isn't wishful thinking, my guild does indeed FCP everyone as a b4-battle prep. However, it is rare, and not right to expect it of everyone, I'll admit that.

Of course it does.

Quote
[email protected] the potential. Nah, that wouldn't be really what I call potential. I prefer to take countless variables into account before stating whether something has 'potential'.

What is it that is so hard to grasp about damaging potential? And what about WoE being a team effort renders you totally incapacitated when trying to think of situations where GSes could shine? Hell, if your guild FCPs every single member of your guild, what keeps your pallies from devoting that extra GS? If you send your tanks first to break a precast and they are successful, what prevents a GS from speed potting his way to the bragi line and taking down a few wiz with Desp? What countless variables is it that you take into account? Because it seems to me like you all you're doing is feed off 1v1 scenarios to prove a point (GS vs Creator in this instance). If High Wizards, Soul Linkers and TKMs are able to survive as long as they know what they're doing (as in not ramboing), why would it be so hard to conceive that a GS might actually know how to do his job and stand in the back providing support dps and rushing in when an opportunity arises?

Quote
If you read through my previous posts, you'll see that I concede that GS'es play a different role as compared to other trans classes. I have debunked arguments involving both and pointed out that they serve very different purposes. However, you can actually weigh what the classes offer. In a Sniper VS GS situation, I would rather pick the Sniper because of what one has to offer, even if they are different. Purely because the GS does not shine well in what it does. If I wanted ranged DPS, I will not pick the GS, period. In fact, I will only pick AB Creators, SBK SinXs and Sharpshooting Snipers. If I wanted Desperado-type DPS, I rather pick MA SinXs, because of what else it has to offer.

It is, in short, too limited, and nowhere near the best at what it does. In WoE.

MA's dps is s***, silly :P. And nowhere was it brought up that a GS could effectively replace trans classes. And that is quite obvious when taking into consideration the fact that one of these takes 3x less effort to make. But guess what, they still have their uses and that's all I'm saying. Ninjas suck donkey ds in WoE too, but that water evasion skill remains very potent in a precast. Star Glads are 2nd rate emp breakers, bad killers and do no sport more than 10k hp themselves, but well played TKMs still do fine and do manage to steal emps from time to time.

And about the whole picking ''X'' over ''Y'' ordeal, I personally don't know of many guilds who have the luxury of having a 100% attendance at every woe. I don't know of any that would actually recruit pure SBK sinxes for WoE either, but you did bring it up anyways so it seems anything is possible ;D.
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2008, 03:16 pm by BentoBox »

Offline fluidin

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #68 on: Dec 28, 2008, 09:47 pm »
So you're not going to endow FB then? Good luck trying to even put a dent on anyone, lol. Of course I know how to switch, but when you're up against people that you're afraid of endowing after switching due to that small delay...yeah.

Hmm. Oh well. It's pretty hard to survive with 97 Vit as any other trans class (except for LK/Palas), much less a GS.

MA can be pretty good under Strings, with its effect, and with an Ice Pick/Imma Sword. About the rest, lol. Kinda depends on your server's rates :/
XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.

Offline Chimichanga

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #69 on: Dec 29, 2008, 01:18 am »
Snipers are an underrated class. They can rape sinx with a ds+flee build in a lowrate. In highrates, i've seen snipers with tg cards that could pwn sinxs cuz the magnum break (probably custom since it's supposed to apply to just swordies) knocks them away and they can deal mean damage against sinx with a couple dses and their hp rate isn't bad. They're needed for woe. They are also extremely versatile in builds.

Gunslingers......great god. Their hp rate is just horrible. It's literally a gimmick class imo. They can't compete that well with the other classes since they're only limited to one pvp build- handguns. Even in their vit build, they're quite shoddy. Many gunslingers equips suggest agi builds but it just doesn't work and giving gunslingers a metaling/whitesmith card is inferior compared to giving a sniper/sinx those cards.

Offline Omi

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #70 on: Dec 29, 2008, 09:59 am »
Quote
magnum break (probably custom since it's supposed to apply to just swordies)

Effect of a Marine Sphere card, which gives level 3 magnum break to any character.

Quote
It's literally a gimmick class imo.

Gunslingers being one of the best non-transcendant PvPers and PvMers next to asssassins, they really are a gimmicky class.  Gunslingers aren't meant to be godly in PvP, theres simply too much against them reduction wise, skill wise etc.  Although they are very, very useful against non-transcendant classes, they still fall short against the capabilities of trancendants, which doesn't mean they can't kill them, it's just more difficult.

Full Buster and Desperado are skills which have the potential to tear through a characters HP.  In WoE if you place a gunslinger in the precast using desperado, I know many classes who would be likely to drop 1st cell.  Although they may have problems killing trancendant classes on their own, they can still do a good part in assisting to kill them.

Offline Littlechan

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #71 on: Dec 29, 2008, 10:17 am »
a bit off topic:

about TG card. it's not only for swordman even though the desc says that

I use that card on high priest/sinx/creator, and they auto cast magnum break too

that's not custom :3

script:

{ bonus2 bAddRace,RC_NonBoss,20; bonus2 bAddRace,RC_Boss,20; bonus2 bAddRace2,5,20; bonus3 bAutoSpell,"SM_MAGNUM",10,30; },{},{}

I don't really understand about script, but I think I don't see anything that sets the magnum break auto cast only for swordman class XD


*Thank You very much for Azurene*

The world is getting more and more broken everyday...

(click to show/hide)

Offline BentoBox

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #72 on: Dec 29, 2008, 02:54 pm »
So you're not going to endow FB then? Good luck trying to even put a dent on anyone, lol. Of course I know how to switch, but when you're up against people that you're afraid of endowing after switching due to that small delay...yeah.

Hmm. Oh well. It's pretty hard to survive with 97 Vit as any other trans class (except for LK/Palas), much less a GS.

MA can be pretty good under Strings, with its effect, and with an Ice Pick/Imma Sword. About the rest, lol. Kinda depends on your server's rates :/

...You can use silver bullets... The only class you're not going to damage is the Sader class but you shouldn't be going after them anyways. As a plus, you get to deal even more damage against those pesty sinxes wearing ED on your emp. No need for endows. And with the aforementioned trick (inferno switching), you can basically FB with an inferno and the elemental sphere of your choice... You really need to read up about the class lol. I never had trouble surviving with 97 as a clown & stalker. AD is seriously overrated. You need to learn to pot more efficiently (as in no npc whites). Or actually get a char with that much vit so you can actually talk from first hand experience ._.''.

Lastly, you don't MA in strings to kill anyone, you MA to inflict status ailments. You're not going to kill anyone decent with it on neither low rates nor high rates.

I play low rates (<10x).

Snipers are an underrated class. They can rape sinx with a ds+flee build in a lowrate. In highrates, i've seen snipers with tg cards that could pwn sinxs cuz the magnum break (probably custom since it's supposed to apply to just swordies) knocks them away and they can deal mean damage against sinx with a couple dses and their hp rate isn't bad. They're needed for woe. They are also extremely versatile in builds.

Gunslingers......great god. Their hp rate is just horrible. It's literally a gimmick class imo. They can't compete that well with the other classes since they're only limited to one pvp build- handguns. Even in their vit build, they're quite shoddy. Many gunslingers equips suggest agi builds but it just doesn't work and giving gunslingers a metaling/whitesmith card is inferior compared to giving a sniper/sinx those cards.

No they can't rape SinXes in low rates considering all a SinX needs is one EDP SB with a triple ancient (if flee is really an issue, which it generally isn't because of their link), to down said Sniper. As soon as they backslide and cloak off-screen, you're set at a massive disadvantage. I don't know about high rates though, never ventured there :'(.

Also, not every class is meant to solo PvP. You don't see High Wizards doing exceptionally well alone. Same goes for whitesmiths. And what about Gypsies, Clowns, Stalkers...? They're all second rate PvPers when put up agaisnt champs and sinxes. Give any of these classes a HP to tag along with and they'll do miracles.


Offline fluidin

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #73 on: Dec 29, 2008, 09:15 pm »
s***. Forgot about the ammo part. Still, remember Providence buff?. :X Lol, never did try to read them up in detail, since I've seen good players (that I know) use them to no effect.

Erm, I do play 97 VIT Clowns and Gypsies for WoE. I get raped by AD under 24/7 strings. Not one AD, but a few. Our enemy uses Skype to actually focus fire our members ._. Watch this and perhaps you'll understand.

At about 4.20 - 4.25, you'll see what I mean about focus fire. Pneuma saved his butt.
XileRo is the only HR I know that has a reasonable PvP system. I did watch the RWC like you said, all I see is people spamming the room like every other gang fight there is in RO.

Offline BentoBox

Re: GUNSLINGER SUCKS read more
« Reply #74 on: Dec 30, 2008, 12:06 am »
I don't know of any non-swordie class that can actually tank stringed ADs easily, much less under focus fire. What I do know though, is that past 80vit, the gain in hp and pot efficiency outshines the gain in AD damage. And personally, I'd much rather have one class that troubles me much over getting stun-locked by string'd gypsies, in which case -anything- will kill you due to your unability to pot. As a clown/gypsy, unless you're going to rambo your way into the fray to slow grace or something, you aren't as likely to drop to ADs if you stand in the back, play your songs and spam fj/dazzler.

Funny vid lol, in the servers I've played all the action goes on in the emp room and pre-emp xD; in First Edition that is.