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Ragnarok Online => Job Discussion => Merchant => Topic started by: Kolby on Jul 03, 2015, 10:51 PM

Title: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kolby on Jul 03, 2015, 10:51 PM
I remember back in 2005 and 2006 they were one of the most annoying classes in which that they have the able to CT and pwn almost instantaneously and I used to to have difficult time in dealing with them. However, at the present time it's being used less and Creos are mostly used now and spam AD a lot. My question to you has Whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp and to an extent pvm? People now hunt MVPs with Creos solo as AD is one of the most useful skill in hunting.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: ianr0k on Jul 04, 2015, 12:02 AM
I wouldn't say irrelevant from a PVP stand point, (for PVM, maybe), as of today, in most pre-renewal servers, not having outrageously high base and job levels, WS still hit hard as CT still does a lot of damage, if the right/good equipment permit, the only draw back of the skill for me is the one cell range it has since WS are whole lot softer than any other tanks out there, heck Stalkers tank better than them in my perspective.

Nothing to say about AD Creators only that it hurts whatever class/monster you are.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: iro_ori on Jul 04, 2015, 01:11 AM
Yes they are irrelevant because the game and meta has evolved.

People didn't use to even use potions in pvp. Hell, some didn't even use potions in WoE and a lot used fat whites.

Also, people had noob builds back then compared to now. Most have 100 vit, or stun immune gears. People know too much about RO now. Bad builds rare.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: monkeyblood on Jul 04, 2015, 02:06 PM
id say woe they are pretty much support but they rape pvp rooms. and as far as PvE it depends on how many luxury items you have. if you have IP,HF, and giganto you can do whatever the hell you want
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Irreverence on Jul 04, 2015, 05:27 PM
Well, from a mid/high rate perspective, WS is one of the most offensively primitive classes you can play.

stack str, fill cart, spam 1 skill. reckon people just got bored with it, and only use it to kill certain classes.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Blinzer on Jul 04, 2015, 08:35 PM
WS is the class with the highest DPS in ragnarok online

but it's DPS, not massive chunks of your HP all at once
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Mary Magdalene on Jul 04, 2015, 09:42 PM
Well on high rate, WS is really a good counter for paladins. They could just spam their cart termination without any worries in reflect and knockback and a very good damage (with thana card), also on other classes.

But also WS does have slightly weak def and HP.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Gene on Jul 05, 2015, 06:48 AM
I still use WS for some boss hunts like beelz with pally and HP support, or valk with HP support. However they drain too much of my zeny since I play on mid and lowrates, better go on SBK bragi or some other alternative.

My server also improved WS pvp by adding in a custom set with chunks of resistance and improvements on CT damage and attack speed, it was good at one point when I went to BG with it, then I realized I drained too much zeny trying to kill people lmao.

Seriously, that zeny requirement is a pain on low rates.

Oh almost forgot to add, they're still the kings of farming in geffenia unless you want to use AD bombs just to farm zeny.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Triper on Jul 05, 2015, 09:53 AM
Zenny may hurt a bit but it's doable, consider it as some sort of a zenny sink, the main problem is that to use CT you need Cart Boost and that is like the easiest thing to counter in game.

You may have the strongest WS possible in game but comes a <insert a counter-class always needed in a WoE roster> and you're in the same state as a alt+f4 player, you do nothing.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Yozakura on Jul 05, 2015, 10:21 AM
People have become too obsessed with "proper" lineups and playing what you want isn't really a thing anymore.
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Suspension on Jul 05, 2015, 02:31 PM
People have become too obsessed with "proper" lineups and playing what you want isn't really a thing anymore.

^ Sadly, this.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kaleidoscope on Nov 01, 2016, 07:26 PM
I know this is a bit old, but id like to throw my 2 cents in this.

WS is one of the more primitive style PVP characters, but for trans HR servers they are still beastly. I mostly use them for counter class, but even with out a proper counter i can still pwn just about anything in pvp with a well equiped WS.

Builing on a WS's mobility tactics is big IMO. The damage and pliability is there, especially if you give one throw tomahawk... /gg
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Inochi on Nov 01, 2016, 07:40 PM
Whitesmith still does great in PvP and PvM. I see lots of servers using whitesmiths as their primary zeny farming technique, but I do believe it is more than dead in War of Emperium and Battlegrounds.

If we are going to split hairs, I think the best that class can attend is a SE woe setting but using a blacksmith as the choice.

my 2 cents....  /o
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 06, 2016, 06:18 AM
Whitesmith are still one of the most feared and most stongest Killers on PVP and WOE.
Only thing that sucks is that Whitesmith needs to cast so many selfbuffs. That really really sucks.
Also most people dont know how to handle one.
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: ggwp on Nov 07, 2016, 07:55 PM
Whitesmith are still of the most feared and most stongest Killers on PVP and WOE.
Only thing that sucks is that Whitesmith needs to cast so many selfbuffs. That really really sucks.
Also most people dont know how to handle one.

TY for providing me new joke for my signature.

On PVP ? WS might shine , but they wont get "most strongest killer"
On WOE ? good luck surviving to get melee range of a stack.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 07, 2016, 10:37 PM
TY for providing me new joke for my signature.

On PVP ? WS might shine , but they wont get "most strongest killer"
On WOE ? good luck surviving to get melee range of a stack.
I mispelled there as you easily could find out. You're just trying to find something that you can use against me.
I wanted to say, that WS are ONE of the most strongest killers on PVP/WOE/BG. So they're not on the top but one of the best killer machines. They have a high rate of Damage per second. As a WS you can get 190 Aspd with less than 50 AGI. True story bro. And if you dont know how to handle a WS, dont play with them. And stop complain like a sissy girl.
You have high vit, you can wear CK against Champions and other problematic groups.
As a WS you own Paladins, Assasins, LKS(Well, who plays LK in woe lol) and also Creators. But creators are hard, once you're near them, its over for them because they cant outpot the high DPS.
Only champions tend to be problematic. But theres a way to dodge their Asura, but Im not telling you how. :))) On PVP scale, hes doing a really really good job. And there a few jobs that can beat him. On WOE, there are better classes for combat, but hes still strong.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: misterj on Nov 07, 2016, 11:32 PM
it's obvious you haven't woed in years on a competitive server. do yourself a favor and stop posting about it... please, it's really painful to read. people actually play support classes now so smith is where they belong, in the dumpster.
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: meaman654 on Nov 07, 2016, 11:40 PM
it's obvious you haven't woed in years on a competitive server. do yourself a favor and stop posting about it... please, it's really painful to read. people actually play support classes now so smith is where they belong, in the dumpster.

I couldn't agree more to this. Even Hitler had his fill of playing WS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-eBmlMqahU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-eBmlMqahU)

Although, PvM wise, they're still good IMO.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 08, 2016, 12:43 AM
it's obvious you haven't woed in years on a competitive server. do yourself a favor and stop posting about it... please, it's really painful to read. people actually play support classes now so smith is where they belong, in the dumpster.
Well, I didint do much the last 2 or 3 years. Thats true. But thats also because most servers died after some months. But I went thru some extensive PVP and Battleground on classic servers. And if you think that Whitesmiths are completly useless in terms of WOE as a offensive combatant, thats your belief. Im fine with that. I've seen other wise and the last days I tried some builds on Whitesmith. I think most people generally dont know how to play WS or just except too much. You can play definitively fine with a whitesmith. Having 190 ASPD without much AGI and a high DMG per second is actually a pretty solid way to go on a  competitive server. You also didint told anyone what EXACTLY makes WS so bad in your eyes? All you do is just to beef. Is it his many selfbuffs in PVP? That he can dispelled? That Cart Termination costs Zeny? If you criticize, then tell me at least what you criticize and lets have a factual debate. Lets put that childish behaviour away. Hell, I didint expect RO players acting like that. I thought people wo actually still play RO are older.

I couldn't agree more to this. Even Hitler had his fill of playing WS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-eBmlMqahU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-eBmlMqahU)

Although, PvM wise, they're still good IMO.
Well, the video isnt so funny when you actually speak german.
But Dispell is a pain in the donkey for anyone. It also effects Champions as much as WS. But of course a WS will be effected more.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: misterj on Nov 08, 2016, 03:53 AM
i would have laughed and just ignored you but you answered in a decent manner so sure ill explain.

in woe stun doesn't happen to anyone but randoms (ergo theyre irrelevant), so hammerfall is gone, and everyone has perma fcp so meltdown is gone. that leaves them with ram. it's a good skill against mvps and mobs i suppose.

that means a whitesmith can only ram people, but the dps is irrelevant against every class aside from dd hwiz, on anyone else you'll just be run away from and ignored. no one cares about the zeny costs, the fact that it's simply zeny makes it the cheapest class, especially compared to other classes where you need bombs, gems, bpots, etc. even the fact they're so shut down by dispell isn't even as relevant as their other flaws. it's a combination of all those failures that makes it so they don't fulfill any niche available in pre-re woe.

the only melee class who can succeed in an environment full of huge aoe dmg and long range buttsmashing of demo/dispel is champion.. and that's because they're a solid support class who can buff, pneuma, and move quickly through the map with snap. furthermore theyre self-sufficient, since they can immediately murder or escape anyone who comes by them.  even if they get dispelled they can *still* snap away quickly.

a lone smith can get bombed to death, get stuck in hitlock in spells, get dispelled and webbed.. or not kill whoever they come across.

none of this is theory crafting. there's a reason no guild has run a whitesmith in almost a decade. the only exceptions would be on servers that arent made for serious woe, who require things like materials having insane costs/weights, in which case theyre useful as couriers and that's it. even still they're outclassed by champions in those environments. i suppose the advantage is theyre a lot simpler to play than champion... that's about all they have going for them.

edit2: oh yeah it's funny you've mentioned how ro is mainly older players, but if you've been on any forums, you know how epic trole xddd D memer they can be.. it's kinda sad how childish the community tends to be :C
Title: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: meaman654 on Nov 08, 2016, 04:42 AM
TY for providing me new joke for my signature.

On PVP ? WS might shine , but they wont get "most strongest killer"
On WOE ? good luck surviving to get melee range of a stack.

I've only read OP's post but when I first came and the later remarks but when I read this, it made my day. Savage as f*ck.

OFF Topic question: Doesn't CT cap out on 186 ASPD? I only use WS on Beelzebub and HW wiz MVP. And I tested it out also in some server  at 190 ASPD, the dmg delivered (with the same items) are the same as 186 ASPD. Did some client changed this like the SP capping on champion?
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 08, 2016, 12:12 PM
i would have laughed and just ignored you but you answered in a decent manner so sure ill explain.

in woe stun doesn't happen to anyone but randoms (ergo theyre irrelevant), so hammerfall is gone, and everyone has perma fcp so meltdown is gone. that leaves them with ram. it's a good skill against mvps and mobs i suppose.

that means a whitesmith can only ram people, but the dps is irrelevant against every class aside from dd hwiz, on anyone else you'll just be run away from and ignored. no one cares about the zeny costs, the fact that it's simply zeny makes it the cheapest class, especially compared to other classes where you need bombs, gems, bpots, etc. even the fact they're so shut down by dispell isn't even as relevant as their other flaws. it's a combination of all those failures that makes it so they don't fulfill any niche available in pre-re woe.

the only melee class who can succeed in an environment full of huge aoe dmg and long range buttsmashing of demo/dispel is champion.. and that's because they're a solid support class who can buff, pneuma, and move quickly through the map with snap. furthermore theyre self-sufficient, since they can immediately murder or escape anyone who comes by them.  even if they get dispelled they can *still* snap away quickly.

a lone smith can get bombed to death, get stuck in hitlock in spells, get dispelled and webbed.. or not kill whoever they come across.

none of this is theory crafting. there's a reason no guild has run a whitesmith in almost a decade. the only exceptions would be on servers that arent made for serious woe, who require things like materials having insane costs/weights, in which case theyre useful as couriers and that's it. even still they're outclassed by champions in those environments. i suppose the advantage is theyre a lot simpler to play than champion... that's about all they have going for them.

edit2: oh yeah it's funny you've mentioned how ro is mainly older players, but if you've been on any forums, you know how epic trole xddd D memer they can be.. it's kinda sad how childish the community tends to be :C
Well, I agree with you on the fact that champions are better killers on WOE/PVP than Whitesmiths and I never told that WS were the strongest of all classes but your message was that WS are nothing but a pure support class in WOE and they're not made for offensive gameplay. I mean, thats not true for sure. Is this some kind of joke or do people just want to make fun of certain classes in general?
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Zereges on Nov 08, 2016, 03:20 PM
Holy cow, what the hell are you talking about?
WS is usefull in PVE (high def mobs), but useless in PVP. You can kill random guys and that's it.

I wanted to say, that WS are ONE of the most strongest killers on PVP/WOE/BG. So they're not on the top but one of the best killer machines. They have a high rate of Damage per second. As a WS you can get 190 Aspd with less than 50 AGI.
In PVP, maybe. In BG/WoE, it's trash. I've played many different servers for long period of time and BGs are owned by creators, WoEs by wizards.

You have high vit, you can wear CK against Champions and other problematic groups.
High vit, but no reductions. You would have ~15k HP, but champions do 20+. Also, with high vit, the damage received from creator gets higher.

As a WS you own Paladins, Assasins, LKS(Well, who plays LK in woe lol) and also Creators. But creators are hard, once you're near them, its over for them because they cant outpot the high DPS.
Only champions tend to be problematic. But theres a way to dodge their Asura, but Im not telling you how. :)))

You definitely do not own Paladins, LKs nor assassins. All of those have stun proof and 18k (sins) - 25k (chickens) HP, GL with that.
You might be able to kill creator, if you can get near them, but they have ston proof and can run, so GL with catching them.
You definitely can't kill champion (for obvious reasons). You might be able to glitch/bug-abuse asura, but that won't help you.


WS in competitive PVP will run around, trying to catch something and die when someone notices him as free frag. True story bro.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Zereges on Nov 08, 2016, 03:20 PM
accidental double post, please delete.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 08, 2016, 04:57 PM
Holy cow, what the hell are you talking about?
WS is usefull in PVE (high def mobs), but useless in PVP. You can kill random guys and that's it.
In PVP, maybe. In BG/WoE, it's trash. I've played many different servers for long period of time and BGs are owned by creators, WoEs by wizards.
High vit, but no reductions. You would have ~15k HP, but champions do 20+. Also, with high vit, the damage received from creator gets higher.

You definitely do not own Paladins, LKs nor assassins. All of those have stun proof and 18k (sins) - 25k (chickens) HP, GL with that.
You might be able to kill creator, if you can get near them, but they have ston proof and can run, so GL with catching them.
You definitely can't kill champion (for obvious reasons). You might be able to glitch/bug-abuse asura, but that won't help you.


WS in competitive PVP will run around, trying to catch something and die when someone notices him as free frag. True story bro.
You can kill Paladins (Ice Pick) for sure and Assasins also. Paladins are also getting damage back from their own sacrifice. And if you use Valk Mantle, he cant heal him self fast enough.
And why no reductions? Why dou you mean by that? I mean a WS with a onehanded weapon and shield not a pure DMG variant with twohanded weapon.
I know that a WS cant suvive a Asura without MVP cards. But you can "dodge" it. However 1vs1, Champions take the lead. I know that. But we're drifting from the original statement.  But the point is, that some people said, that WS are only a support class in WOE/PVP which obviously is not true.
BTW: Which server are you referring to? 99/70 style servers, classic?
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 08, 2016, 05:33 PM
the class is not irrelevant, all good whitesmith players quit the game. khaled and kaleb made the class look like it was stronger than champion.

don't pay attention to what a bunch of people have to say about the class who don't know who those two are , and don't count on me to give you tips on how to become like them. we all follow the same rule: earn your own strength.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Zereges on Nov 09, 2016, 08:16 AM
You can kill Paladins (Ice Pick) for sure and Assasins also. Paladins are also getting damage back from their own sacrifice. And if you use Valk Mantle, he cant heal him self fast enough.
Ok, I meant serious paladin, who is devotion paladin. You can't catch him, he has chicken (peco). He would be only laughing at you. Even if he let you catch him, you would do easily pottable damage.
Assassin has cloak and even if you could catch him, he has much more health than you think.

And why no reductions? Why dou you mean by that? I mean a WS with a onehanded weapon and shield not a pure DMG variant with twohanded weapon.
But the point is, that some people said, that WS are only a support class in WOE/PVP which obviously is not true.
In order to do high damage, you have to sacrifice reductions - weapon (damage weapon vs. combat), garment (Giant Whisper vs Ray/Nox), Headgear (Atk Bapho vs Def Bapho), Boots (Shackles vs health)

BTW: Which server are you referring to? 99/70 style servers, classic?
Obviously 99/70 pre-renewal, 190aspd, 150 instant cast, 0.2s delay, basic stuff server, with godlike items and MVP cards disabled.

But the point is, that some people said, that WS are only a support class in WOE/PVP which obviously is not true.
WS is not class meant to do anything on WoE/BG at all. Not a damage, not a support, not an option.

I might be able to find a WoE video of our guild playing melee characters with boosted WS (With soul link, he was immune to dispell).
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: ggwp on Nov 09, 2016, 09:20 AM
I mispelled there as you easily could find out. You're just trying to find something that you can use against me.
I wanted to say, that WS are ONE of the most strongest killers on PVP/WOE/BG. So they're not on the top but one of the best killer machines. They have a high rate of Damage per second. As a WS you can get 190 Aspd with less than 50 AGI. True story bro. And if you dont know how to handle a WS, dont play with them. And stop complain like a sissy girl.
You have high vit, you can wear CK against Champions and other problematic groups.
As a WS you own Paladins, Assasins, LKS(Well, who plays LK in woe lol) and also Creators. But creators are hard, once you're near them, its over for them because they cant outpot the high DPS.
Only champions tend to be problematic. But theres a way to dodge their Asura, but Im not telling you how. :))) On PVP scale, hes doing a really really good job. And there a few jobs that can beat him. On WOE, there are better classes for combat, but hes still strong.

You need Full Adrenaline to have good aspd with CK/IP. Dispel would render you useless since you cant recast FAR. If you get dispelled ,  your DPS drop to 1/2.

All other class just outpot your damage , kite you endlessly or straight killing you. You might die 10 times to get 1 frag out of random noobs.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pv
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 09, 2016, 11:51 PM
You need Full Adrenaline to have good aspd with CK/IP. Dispel would render you useless since you cant recast FAR. If you get dispelled ,  your DPS drop to 1/2.

All other class just outpot your damage , kite you endlessly or straight killing you. You might die 10 times to get 1 frag out of random noobs.

The basics, man. Whitesmith can reach 189 aspd with a 69 AGI build, which makes it have the strongest DPS in the entire game. The problem is how vulnerable it is in the approach because debuffs mess it up really bad, but that's why you don't send the WS in until you have coverage of the classes that debuff him. You do have to play around the class to bring out its potential in WoE, but if they have one and you don't you're going to lose.

"Outpot your damage" You crack me up, kid. Whitesmith is the only class in the entire game that you can't outpot the damage of in WoE. How many years have you played this game again?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 10, 2016, 02:36 AM
The basics, man. Whitesmith can reach 189 aspd with a 69 AGI build, which makes it have the strongest DPS in the entire game. The problem is how vulnerable it is in the approach because debuffs mess it up really bad, but that's why you don't send the WS in until you have coverage of the classes that debuff him. You do have to play around the class to bring out its potential in WoE, but if they have one and you don't you're going to lose.

"Outpot your damage" You crack me up, kid. Whitesmith is the only class in the entire game that you can't outpot the damage of in WoE. How many years have you played this game again?
No, not true. You dont need to have 69 to reach 189 ASPD: I've tested it a few days ago. I only had to make 51-53 AGI in order to reach 190 ASPD. I even could've had 99 VIT if I wanted to make it that way. I had 17.500 - 18.000 base HP with Unfrozen. With the newer equips given you can make some sick builds. When is the last time you actually made some tests or are just mentioning old builds here?
Title: .
Post by: ggwp on Nov 10, 2016, 03:37 AM
The basics, man. Whitesmith can reach 189 aspd with a 69 AGI build, which makes it have the strongest DPS in the entire game. The problem is how vulnerable it is in the approach because debuffs mess it up really bad, but that's why you don't send the WS in until you have coverage of the classes that debuff him. You do have to play around the class to bring out its potential in WoE, but if they have one and you don't you're going to lose.

"Outpot your damage" You crack me up, kid. Whitesmith is the only class in the entire game that you can't outpot the damage of in WoE. How many years have you played this game again?

Either you drop STR to 100 from usual 120 total and reduce your DPS by 10% and cutting 20% damage per swing. Or you reduce Vit and get stunned every time. Strongest DPS without god's in the entire game is aspd 190 Creator with Bragi.

You're assuming the target are standing still waiting their doom. Who dumb enough to face tank a meele range skill spammer ? Let them busy chasing you so their spam rate drop. Moreover this class is heavily relying on Ice Pick which get negated easily by Grimtooth / Spike.
Title: Re: .
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 10, 2016, 04:46 AM
Either you drop STR to 100 from usual 120 total and reduce your DPS by 10% and cutting 20% damage per swing. Or you reduce Vit and get stunned every time. Strongest DPS without god's in the entire game is aspd 190 Creator with Bragi.

Neither. A 20% stun immunity on headgear(stalactic golem in vanilla? can't remember) is enough to make you immune with 80 vit, you don't need even need orc hero card(OH always goes to sniper first). Valk Armor does the same thing. It's also interesting that you mention Ice Pick, because out of the 3 weapons a WS needs to have, Ice Pick is the least important.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 10, 2016, 05:03 AM
Ok, I meant serious paladin, who is devotion paladin. You can't catch him, he has chicken (peco). He would be only laughing at you. Even if he let you catch him, you would do easily pottable damage.
Assassin has cloak and even if you could catch him, he has much more health than you think.
In order to do high damage, you have to sacrifice reductions - weapon (damage weapon vs. combat), garment (Giant Whisper vs Ray/Nox), Headgear (Atk Bapho vs Def Bapho), Boots (Shackles vs health)
Obviously 99/70 pre-renewal, 190aspd, 150 instant cast, 0.2s delay, basic stuff server, with godlike items and MVP cards disabled.
WS is not class meant to do anything on WoE/BG at all. Not a damage, not a support, not an option.

I might be able to find a WoE video of our guild playing melee characters with boosted WS (With soul link, he was immune to dispell).
Please duede. PLEASE. Who would really take giant whisper card and sacrifice Raydric card if you can get additional ATK by Box of Resentment or Aloevera? WHO?
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Zereges on Nov 10, 2016, 03:01 PM
Neither. A 20% stun immunity on headgear(stalactic golem in vanilla? can't remember) is enough to make you immune with 80 vit, you don't need even need orc hero card(OH always goes to sniper first). Valk Armor does the same thing. It's also interesting that you mention Ice Pick, because out of the 3 weapons a WS needs to have, Ice Pick is the least important.
Vitality and stun immunty from gear does not stack additively. You need to have either 100% from gear, or 97 vit (eathena)

Please duede. PLEASE. Who would really take giant whisper card and sacrifice Raydric card if you can get additional ATK by Box of Resentment or Aloevera? WHO?
Well, someone who can afford it, can switch or whatever.
BTW, Please duede. PLEASE. Who would really, apart from profesor and sinx wear raydric in WoE/BGs full of LR damage?

I've just used calc and full buffed whitesmith, with full damage equip would do ~10k dps to noob, prior to dispell and about 4k after dispell. With reduction equip, you would do even less. And this still assumes, that the noob would be standing still.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 10, 2016, 06:49 PM
Vitality and stun immunty from gear does not stack additively. You need to have either 100% from gear, or 97 vit (eathena)
Well, someone who can afford it, can switch or whatever.
BTW, Please duede. PLEASE. Who would really, apart from profesor and sinx wear raydric in WoE/BGs full of LR damage?

I've just used calc and full buffed whitesmith, with full damage equip would do ~10k dps to noob, prior to dispell and about 4k after dispell. With reduction equip, you would do even less. And this still assumes, that the noob would be standing still.
What weapon did you use or calculated with?
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Zereges on Nov 10, 2016, 08:24 PM
+7 Giganto Axe[Hydra]
+5 Ice Pick[Hydra] (90vit, 35def)

resulting damage was pretty much same.
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 11, 2016, 03:21 AM
+7 Giganto Axe[Hydra]
+5 Ice Pick[Hydra] (90vit, 35def)

resulting damage was pretty much same.
But Hydra card doenst increase the damage of ct. Percent items and cards like Racial and Size cards (ignoring the ATK gained from Size cards), The Sign, Zealotus Mask and the Turtle General card do not affect this skill.
Only ATK increase its damage like Zipper bear card.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Zereges on Nov 11, 2016, 03:41 AM
But Hydra card doenst increase the damage of ct. Percent items and cards like Racial and Size cards (ignoring the ATK gained from Size cards), The Sign, Zealotus Mask and the Turtle General card do not affect this skill.
Only ATK increase its damage like Zipper bear card.
Oh, I forgotten. But The damage would be ~same.
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 11, 2016, 05:09 AM
Oh, I forgotten. But The damage would be ~same.
Well, if you dont even know or forgot that racial cards dont boost the damage of CT, maybe the rest of your equip was wrong too. I guess that.
Now, if I was mean, I could use this against you or make fun of it, but Im not going to.^^
Btw. my tip is: Use parts of BG equip, many many people underestimate it.
Also, zipper bear would increase the damage for sure.
Also, I dont know what people expect CT's damage to be. You dont need to make 6k or 5k hit with each CT. Making 4k hit is also okay, people just wont understand that his DPS and and his rate of damage need just to be high enough that enemies cant heal them fast enough.
CT is not for one hitting everyone, I get the feeling that everyone expcts them to be one hitters.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 11, 2016, 02:46 PM
Vitality and stun immunty from gear does not stack additively. You need to have either 100% from gear, or 97 vit (eathena)

Yeah, but a stun that lasts 0.05 seconds is no stun at all.

BTW, giant axe on WS isn't that good. Only good as a quick grab to have some decent damage output within 2 days of joining a server.
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: ggwp on Nov 12, 2016, 12:53 AM
Yeah, but a stun that lasts 0.05 seconds is no stun at all.

BTW, giant axe on WS isn't that good. Only good as a quick grab to have some decent damage output within 2 days of joining a server.

Stun duration is 5s , with your 80 Vit + stalactic it will last around 1s.

How many years have you played this game again?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Have white
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 12, 2016, 01:35 AM
Stun duration is 5s , with your 80 Vit + stalactic it will last around 1s.

How many years have you played this game again?

I am sniper only, so I never concerned myself with these problems since the Orc Hero card always went to me. I don't remember nor care about the math behind stuns, but I will attempt to reverse engineer the random bits of memory I have of my friend talking to me about it for your sake.

I think it was either 80 or 86 vit, but let's go with 80 vit(I can't even remember if bonus vit counts towards immunity, but job levels provide +6, +3 vit food, +1 from valk armor) = 90 vit + valk armor and stalactic golem providing a 70% resistance.  If bonus vit applies that leaves a low a chance of being stunned for 0.15 seconds, which is not enough to stop a CT hit lock from happening. Even if bonus vit doesn't apply, I'm sure that by tweaking and manipulating other things you can reach the conclusion and find out how he did it yourself. Vanberk Card and Cursed Hand were also crucial elements to his build to allow you to have enough stat points, so make of that what you will.

One last thing. If you want to prove your worth so badly that you would throw away your humanity and subject yourself to petty commenting, sheathe your sword and challenge me instead. We share the same fate, and I won't allow you to take what I use and dishonor the name of human beings like that.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Zereges on Nov 12, 2016, 05:19 AM
Well, if you dont even know or forgot that racial cards dont boost the damage of CT, maybe the rest of your equip was wrong too. I guess that.
Now, if I was mean, I could use this against you or make fun of it, but Im not going to.^^
Btw. my tip is: Use parts of BG equip, many many people underestimate it.
Also, zipper bear would increase the damage for sure.

Sadly, was not. I copied mine PVE WS build (pure damage) and just changed the weapon. For some reason though I placed hydra instead of zipper there.
You could do whatever you want. For example, you could post some math supporting your "WS has highest dps".
I assumed BG is not available, because it is easier than to discuss if KVM is also acceptable.


Also, I dont know what people expect CT's damage to be. You dont need to make 6k or 5k hit with each CT. Making 4k hit is also okay, people just wont understand that his DPS and and his rate of damage need just to be high enough that enemies cant heal them fast enough.
CT is not for one hitting everyone, I get the feeling that everyone expcts them to be one hitters.
You are doing 2-3k hits more likely. The only reason why the dps is high (in calc) is full adrenaline rush which gives insane aspd boost. Once you are dispelled, it's over.

BTW, you said
Quote
Well, who plays LK in woe lol
How surprised would you be if I told you, that LK has higher DPS than WS, is more durable, is faster and also has AOE damage. Sadly, with same issues (dispel) as WS.
Title: Re:
Post by: ggwp on Nov 12, 2016, 09:14 AM
I am sniper only, so I never concerned myself with these problems since the Orc Hero card always went to me. I don't remember nor care about the math behind stuns, but I will attempt to reverse engineer the random bits of memory I have of my friend talking to me about it for your sake.

I think it was either 80 or 86 vit, but let's go with 80 vit(I can't even remember if bonus vit counts towards immunity, but job levels provide +6, +3 vit food, +1 from valk armor) = 90 vit + valk armor and stalactic golem providing a 70% resistance.  If bonus vit applies that leaves a low a chance of being stunned for 0.15 seconds, which is not enough to stop a CT hit lock from happening. Even if bonus vit doesn't apply, I'm sure that by tweaking and manipulating other things you can reach the conclusion and find out how he did it yourself. Vanberk Card and Cursed Hand were also crucial elements to his build to allow you to have enough stat points, so make of that what you will.

One last thing. If you want to prove your worth so badly that you would throw away your humanity and subject yourself to petty commenting, sheathe your sword and challenge me instead. We share the same fate, and I won't allow you to take what I use and dishonor the name of human beings like that.

Stun reduce gears reduce STUN RATE , duration still same so 0,5s.

Since you say to use cursed hand, your WS build at most you only can use 1 MoH / Bison combo. You need 20% aspd gear and around 10 more agi to reach 189 with axe. To get that either you have Doppleganger + bison set / moh (highly unprobable) or you use +10 HF with MoH. Good luck rushing people without any demi human reducts because vanberk + stalactic means you dont use demi reducts headgear.
Title: Re: Re:
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 12, 2016, 01:56 PM
Stun reduce gears reduce STUN RATE , duration still same so 0,5s.

Since you say to use cursed hand, your WS build at most you only can use 1 MoH / Bison combo. You need 20% aspd gear and around 10 more agi to reach 189 with axe. To get that either you have Doppleganger + bison set / moh (highly unprobable) or you use +10 HF with MoH. Good luck rushing people without any demi human reducts because vanberk + stalactic means you dont use demi reducts headgear.

Yes, you are exactly right. +10 HF with Incant is your damaging weapon and the strongest weapon for Whitesmith, allowing you to reach 189 ASPD. You simply swap combat knife and valkyrja shield out for it when you are planning on attacking(as well as any appropriate reduction headgears).

It seems we are reaching close to the point of figuring out what it is he did, but I'm not sure where to go from here. A 30% stun rate(15% since scream is 50% by default) seems solid, but I'm sure the stun lasted much less than 0.5s. What other possibilities could there be?

Also, what is MoH? Bare with me, you have to understand that I've been working on my own project for so long that I am dual wielding this knowledge for this topic.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: ggwp on Nov 12, 2016, 05:38 PM
You listed too much high end stuff and MvP card like its easy to get. Are you talking about high rate server ? Realistically speaking , if you got IS slotting it into Infiltrator for SinX would give more profit than this gimmick glass cannon WS.

Yes , you can swap. But you will have huge headache when you get fiber locked (it bypass GTB immunity). Either you use cranial switch and get dispelled or you tank those DPS without reduce.

Without dispel on the enemy side, BB LK would be better cleaner than that gimmick glass cannon WS due to AoE damage (and since you talk on high rate , if that LK have 2 beelz card , ggwpnore). Hence the topic , have WS become irrelevant over the years in PvP / WoE.

Either he use better vit dish or his luk are severely buffed.
- Chance = BaseChance - BaseChance * tarVit / 100 + srcBaseLevel - tarBaseLevel - tarLuk
- Duration = BaseDuration - BaseDuration * tarVit / 100 - 10 * tarLuk
- Default duration: 5000ms (Stun)

MOH = Medal of Honor (Merchant) / Merchant class BG Acc.
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 12, 2016, 09:03 PM
You listed too much high end stuff and MvP card like its easy to get. Are you talking about high rate server ? Realistically speaking , if you got IS slotting it into Infiltrator for SinX would give more profit than this gimmick glass cannon WS.

Yes , you can swap. But you will have huge headache when you get fiber locked (it bypass GTB immunity). Either you use cranial switch and get dispelled or you tank those DPS without reduce.

Without dispel on the enemy side, BB LK would be better cleaner than that gimmick glass cannon WS due to AoE damage (and since you talk on high rate , if that LK have 2 beelz card , ggwpnore). Hence the topic , have WS become irrelevant over the years in PvP / WoE.

Either he use better vit dish or his luk are severely buffed.
- Chance = BaseChance - BaseChance * tarVit / 100 + srcBaseLevel - tarBaseLevel - tarLuk
- Duration = BaseDuration - BaseDuration * tarVit / 100 - 10 * tarLuk
- Default duration: 5000ms (Stun)

MOH = Medal of Honor (Merchant) / Merchant class BG Acc.


You do raise excellent points about a SinX dishing out more damage than a Whitesmith by using kiel cards to stack sonic blows, and I've never seen a lord knight use beelzebub cards but that sounds devastating with a 60+ dex build. In theory it would seem the odds are stacked against the Whitesmith, so I will agree that it is the weakest(or maybe Stalker is, but I swear people used that class for a reason in WoE); however, I cannot agree to it being useless. The DPS output is over the threshold required to eliminate any target it gets in range for. I will not turn a blank eye to this potential, even if other classes are well above it. My main beef here was simply was the misconception that it did not have this damage potential when in fact it does.

I always evaluate what I'm saying based off the potential limit of the game. Just like it's pointless to assume people won't do something, it's pointless to assume people won't have something. Your strategy has to be prepared for the worst(and best) scenario.

Oh right, the BG rewards that give 5% atk. Speaking of small attack boosts, I remember kaleb was so crazy that he would go as far as swapping in porcellio at the perfect moment just to get 25 more ATK for his hits. That guy was seriously nuts and watching him play was a spectacle.
Title: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: ggwp on Nov 13, 2016, 10:56 AM
Linked Stalker is dispel-proof so they are best DPS class to kill OLP Proff
Title: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Kyo-Kusanagi-aka-GuessWho on Nov 13, 2016, 11:06 AM
Linked Stalker is dispel-proof so they are best DPS class to kill OLP Proff
Is this a joke bro? Stalker? What skill do you intend do you use? Backstab, BB?
Sonic Blow or Assasin can kill Profs better.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: Blinzer on Nov 13, 2016, 02:27 PM
Silencing other people is an inhumane action no matter the cause. Is that how little faith you have in other people?

Linked Stalker is dispel-proof so they are best DPS class to kill OLP Proff

Ah, so that's what it was. Yes, I've passed by that in the code before but I never gave it a priority in my memory since Soul Linkers no longer serve that function in my project.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Have whitesmith become irrelevant over the years in pvp/woe and pvm?
Post by: ggwp on Nov 13, 2016, 04:38 PM
Is this a joke bro? Stalker? What skill do you intend do you use? Backstab, BB?
Sonic Blow or Assasin can kill Profs better.

Caster build Stalker. Bonus point for North/First Wind being AoE magic that can be used under LP.