what the hell happened

[Kensei]

now which is more OP, EDP+Link SB or glasscannon lolsura?

[Leamee]

I'd say EDP sb because asura = cast time, stupid prereqs like calling spirits and non elemental so sucks against some opponents but EDP sb can be elemental if I'm not mistaken and linked it's really OP and can do way more damage per sb than a measly asura.

[fluidin]

what no. if both r built and geared right, n against built and geared right opponents asura > sb.

sb = aftercast delay of 2 secs non-pvp. asura can be casted from zen-fury-zen-asura in that same period of time or less.

sb is so 2009

also, both aren't OP

[Kensei]

aw ye those are still the most popular OHKO-ing skills. but SB also need preparation, link and EDP then cloak. unprepared SB will just expose you and get asura'd on the butt.

but in WoE, asura is used much more than SB ;(

[XicoR4]

what no. if both r built and geared right, n against built and geared right opponents asura > sb.

Without counting GR cards (which should be rare), a properly geared Asura should get higher damage than any sb. Besides that, it's easier to buff up Asura's damage.

sb = aftercast delay of 2 secs non-pvp. asura can be casted from zen-fury-zen-asura in that same period of time or less.

sb is so 2009

also, both aren't OP

Depends on your definition of OP, In my book they are overpowered (not so much sonic blow, more edp), in the sense that they have much higher damage modifiers compared to other skills from other classes. This makes you effectively have only 3/4 classes as the damage dealers in any WoE comp (Which is bad game design imo): Wizards for constant area damage, Biochems for constant single target DPS and Champs (and Sinx in WoE:FE) for high burst damage.

It comes as a lesser of evils though, without edp sb and/or asura, it's pretty hard to kill anyone with decent reduces + pots.

[fluidin]

Without counting GR cards (which should be rare), a properly geared Asura should get higher damage than any sb. Besides that, it's easier to buff up Asura's damage.

yes thats wat i waz sayin, unless of cos mvp cards come into play. also nah both are easy to lolbuff

Depends on your definition of OP, In my book they are overpowered (not so much sonic blow, more edp), in the sense that they have much higher damage modifiers compared to other skills from other classes. This makes you effectively have only 3/4 classes as the damage dealers in any WoE comp (Which is bad game design imo):

no its not bad game design. i dun like games whr every1 can be a dd, a tank, a buffer, a debuffer, or a combination of those. (read: wow) whats the fcking point of having different classes then? dd classes are meant to excel in dd, and thats what those classes u mentioned do. renewal is actually going in the direction of wat u said, which is what makes it bad. woe is good because u take completely different classes playing different roles and make them work together. ro takes this further and makes some classes OP in pvm and rubbish in woe (read: ws, tkm) which i dun rly agree with too but yeah u see my point

[XicoR4]

Asura relies on both sp and atk power so there's more ways to buff up Asura

edit relics;
Oh god sorry xico I just messed your post up xD I wanted to quote but modified herp derp.

edit xico:
ahahah, no problem, I just said I agreed with fluidin on that there should be different roles for different classes, just that the bad game design choice was rendering a few classes effectively useless (or not wanted) in WoE, with over 50% of most server's population being split between 4 different classes.

[fluidin]

well yes most servers have majority of players wanting to play those 4 classes, but what matters is woe composition itself. of cos every1 wants to play dd lol.

if u look at top guilds u find that the ratio is rather balanced.

out of a 48/48, u get maybe 4 dd creos, 3 dd hwiz, 3 champs (including alt guild), and 0-1 sinx. numbers are pretty even when u compare them to full support classes like profs and paladins. what makes the number more skewed is that wizards and creos also make indispensible support classes (spp creos and fs wizs)

the only classes that are really useless either way would only be: gunslinger and ninja (arguable for low-tier pvp and pvm). sinx, LK, etcetc get their niche no matter whether it's pvp, pvm, mvp, or official server woe whr god items also come into play. for gimmick classes like SN and perma 1st jobs or w/e, =.="

[Ahn]

didnt think people would actually respond to this. whatever. getting on the balanced classes thing alot of it really has to do with what server you play, i see some servers where gunslingers nearly rival sinx/edp and others where battle proffs are the next best thing. but no matter what on ANY server sinx and champ are still the most played class, sure you can gear to defend against their skills but what if they're in a party? i wouldn't want to wear a deviling and ghostring against a good holy light priest, who would also be lexing their asura. fact is if your forced to make a build solely to defend against a class, that (at least to me) is overpowered.

and then there's the items, even on legitimate servers there is not a lot of choice for variety anymore. some items are just too good.

you may agree you may disagree this is just my observation after being back for a month or so. and honestly im starting to wish i never came back. fortunately i found a server that LOOKS promising...we'll see how it goes.

[XicoR4]

didnt think people would actually respond to this. whatever.

Well, if you didn't expect people to reply/discuss what's the point of making the thread in the first place? (I'm not complaining, discussing things is good)

getting on the balanced classes thing alot of it really has to do with what server you play, i see some servers where gunslingers nearly rival sinx/edp and others where battle proffs are the next best thing. but no matter what on ANY server sinx and champ are still the most played class, sure you can gear to defend against their skills but what if they're in a party? i wouldn't want to wear a deviling and ghostring against a good holy light priest, who would also be lexing their asura. fact is if your forced to make a build solely to defend against a class, that (at least to me) is overpowered.

and then there's the items, even on legitimate servers there is not a lot of choice for variety anymore. some items are just too good.

The main problem is like you said, it depends on whether the server owners actually want to balance their server according to their population count or not (and besides balance being a really subjective topic, we all know 99% will stick with default eA). Besides that, the game only balances itself out (sorta) when the server population hits a certain threshold (which only an handfull of servers can hit lately), like fluidin said in his last post.

Agreed on not having enough variety in gear builds lately (a trend that started with the introduction of nameless, when everyone got tidal shoes + wool scarf). As far as regular pvp is concerned, there's not much point on getting anything other than battlegrounds gear or variant shoes + proxy mant, DEF is made worthless because the physical skills used in WoE bypass it, MDEF specific gear is useless when you can get proxy/valk shield (for example) to reduce elemental damage, and so on...
Of course there's always someone that can make a different build work out, but almost everyone defaults the same key equips.

you may agree you may disagree this is just my observation after being back for a month or so. and honestly im starting to wish i never came back. fortunately i found a server that LOOKS promising...we'll see how it goes.

I've been there a lot of times before, so I'll wish you good luck with that server ^^

[mahawirasd]

RO has a different kind of balance than most if not all games. Regarding skills, Gravity balances out Overpowered ones by making something else even more overpowered.
Besides that, if there's ever a time when RO has been broken is with the introduction of Trans skills (most people agree that the game was better before).

About the DS comment, Stalkers with DS aren't anywhere near as bad as snipers regarding that, so it's not a problem with the specific skill, it's more about the class that uses it. Besides, there's more effective spammable skills when it comes to a sp/damage ratio like Pierce, Grimtooth, Mammomite and Heat for instance.

I agree with your notion of "balance" in RO. Taken straight out of doddler's book i see ;
you are quite right in the sense that it being accessible to a class that can achieve insanely high dex with a bow weapon is what makes it OP.

nevertheless i stand by my convictions because it's a first class skill which can do insane damage (percentage wise) without serious drawbacks (compare it to mammo's zeny cost if you will). And it's range still holds for best reach, and really you need to hide for grim first, so that's already 10 SP down the drain. Heat, as i said before, is SEVERELY LIMITED. Pierce is so size reliant that although you'd probably use it against anubis, DPS wise DS is still better against most medium and small monsters.

add to the fact that mammo, pierce, and GT requires STR, AGI, AND DEX to be useful, and you understand why DS-ers can just get DEX, AGI and INT for more spammability.
hell even with 1 agi it was so easy to level an archer-bard solely on DS with a straight 7x dex then INT build.

again, add to the fact that you can minimize it's SP cost and you get a class with a skill you can use to hunt MOST ANYWHERE for MOST ANY MOB with relative ease because of the HUGE RANGE. Sure hunter/snipers have low carry weight, but they're still not as disadvantaged as rogues imho...


@golden: lol, snipers are ubiquitous and versatile because they have DS, FA (for high def mobs), as well as SS (for groups of monsters). DS remains the fastest, cheapest, most damaging single target skill with the most range.

@Leamee: EDP SB costs way way way more than DS. Again, 12 SP for 380% damage is so cheap and you can further reduce it's SP cost with the sniper acc combo. Furthermore, DS is so spammable compared to SB. And EDP, already being so expensive on its own, also only lasts 60s...


@the ongoing discussion:
i don't WOE nearly enough, but any serious WOE-ers probably know that there are so many ways to circumvent asura and EDP SB by really working together. And them being burst damage is only amplified by the abandonment of the 99 base stat limit, therefore such slanted population job choices are only apparent in higher rates. Play in a decent low/mid rate and you'll see how hunters with DS are THE most populated class because they are the most effective and versatile farming class for most mobs. Sure there will still be champs and sinXes in WOE because loads of RO players seem to be 13 yr olds who like to TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLIOHKOEDYOUTROLOLOLOLOLOL, but again any decent WOE guild knows that asura champs and SBK sinXs are the least of their problems if the occupying forces have a decent precast complete with traps and slow grace + all the status spams like tarot/curse/silence/stun/what ever...


-w-

[XicoR4]

Ahahah, Doddler's rant was something that kinda stuck in my mind a while back, I completely agree with what he said, and most of it still holds true today (or even amplified).

You have a point about sniper's DS, I was focusing on a "max" situation, a properly geared LK/Sinx/WS/TKM will outdamage the sniper for less sp usage (especially when you throw megs into the mix).
I guess in general terms though, DS is just too versatile, being able to change to any element at will, relying on just 2 stats (and dex affects it greatly as mentioned) to be effective and it's ability to kite mobs around (more of a problem with eAthena's double stun lock though). That versatility is the main reason everyone on servers nowadays makes a Sniper as his first char to hunt stuff.

[fluidin]

i herd beast strafing wif megs is beast yo