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Offline Baldy

What do you think about this?
« on: Oct 31, 2017, 03:59 AM »
Hi Guys!

I'm throwing in a hard but common topic.
I've made a player report, reason AHK/macro/dll injection(ragx) , proven with ragnarok record file.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu8fa6wB80A&feature=youtu.be

I've got two answers from two gm's.
Answer 1,

I myself can press a single key at least two times per finger snap as per the video, and quite easily.
My mentiot to this: he is making over 4 backslide around that statue in 2,7 seconds. that requires 32x usage of bingbing and 16x usage of backslide.
                              Aka 48x key stroke in 2,7 seconds [2 doridori 1 back slide exactly, cant mis-push keys!]. Do you really can do it? is this possible?

Answer 2,
We have to be 100% sure someone's using a macro to apply a punishment, there simply isn't enough evidence here to move forward, sorry.
 Not sure what DLL injection has to do with anything here. I'll be locking this report as well because I'm sure you will not be satisfied with this answer no matter what we'll tell you afterwards.


My mention: If this is not enough provement, then what is? Since you can not monitor the reported players computer, this is the most you can do regarding AHK/ragx.
Pointing out of #Answer2, is it legal to use ahk/ragx/autop potions then, since they cant monitor your computer searching after ahk/ragx activity?

What you guys think about this?

Cheers, Baldy.
« Last Edit: Oct 31, 2017, 04:05 AM by Baldy »

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Offline XicoR4

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #1 on: Oct 31, 2017, 11:33 AM »
Even starcraft pro players (arguably the fastest) can "only" average 300~500 APM (and it's mostly spam).
That's 5 to 8 clicks per second. To do that backsliding at the speed he does, he'd have to be twice as fast (~16 clicks per second). Not to mention the accuracy.

Macros if done properly are impossible to tell from real players. Some can be that fast (190 aspd is 5 attacks/skills per second) but it's hard to consistently and accurately do it.
It's sort of a gray area. Even if you did stop program macros, there's keyboards and mouses that come with their own (even controllers with things like auto-fire).

Is it legal? Depends on the server. From personal experience though, pretty much everyone uses them. WoE as it is today would be impossible without macros/RCX/auto-pot (some argue WoE is funnier/better that way but numbers say otherwise though).

I think using these sort of programs drastically reduces the skill ceiling. You only need to press 1 or 2 buttons and you do everything at 100% efficiency while also surviving for the longest time possible. It also makes some classes/builds simply not viable in this environment.
It does, however, even the play field (IF everyone uses them), for obvious reasons.

Offline Potatoes

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #2 on: Oct 31, 2017, 02:20 PM »
Why would someone use a macro to spin around a flag in Izlude, I don't see the point tbh. I imagine the guy will argue his case with:

"You were banned for using a macro to spin around a flag in Izlude."
"No wtf, I didn't do anything wrong."
"We have video proof of you doing that, links your video."
"That doesn't prove anything, I did that legit."
"You're right, we can't prove you did something wrong. Like yo, that video is our only proof and statistically, a normal person can't click so fast."
"... well that's retarded. Can I get unbanned?!?!?!?!? That's so unfair."

Anyway, the guy probably just used quickspells (/q2) by spamming the mouse wheel and then spamming a macro with alt-m to rotate (with /bangbang). I can reach close to that speed myself and I'm not trying really hard, and I'm not cheating or using macros. So yeah, it's hard to prove he did something illegal here. It is suspicious, sure, but imagine if you got banned for that when you did nothing wrong, that's even worse.

Edit: Lol yeah, if you bind two alt-m with /bangbang + spam mouse wheel, that's getting somewhat easy to achieve.

Offline Baldy

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #3 on: Nov 01, 2017, 07:44 AM »
@potato
Yes, with wheel its possible to reach this, but kinda impossible to aim it always perfectly.
You didnt get the point of it.
Its not about back sliding in izlude
It's about the fact, to spamming key chains in a row in miliseconds with 100% accurate.

@XicoR4
I totally agree with you.
75% of players are playing with macro/autopot/rcx and its not bothering me.
The server No*aRO has the rule, every kind of automatization leads to permanent ban. Just like AHK.
Its obviously impossible to reproduce the seen things on video with hands, (with /q2 and wheel you can do it with ~90% accurate rate, but it has no point,), its obviously not /q2.
The fact is, it is AHK [or even ahk cant be so fast and precise] so probably dll inject or ragx.
Fact 2. -> You cant prove it 100%. To do that, you have to monitor the players computer.
Fact 3. -> Since it can not be proven, and excuses like "macro mouse, macro keyboard" are existing, isnt it easier to legalize them?
Its suchs a thing, if you get caught with AHK you get instantly permanent banned, but you can not be caughted. So pointless.
The thing, what pissed me off, is the head gm's first reaction. "I can easly do it myself as well" <-- This is slapping on your face, like-> I' know its AHK but i wont do s***.
« Last Edit: Nov 01, 2017, 07:49 AM by Baldy »

Offline Innomite

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #4 on: Nov 01, 2017, 01:19 PM »
Man, doing that is like the easiest thing in PvP for thief classes. You don't even need AHK/DLL injection/dumb assumptions to reach a back slide /bangbing spam with that speed.

Back Slide relies on ASPD; the higher it is, the faster you'll get to cast the skill over and over again, and using the "alt+m" shortcut list is nothing new, that's how people do it. Just because you're new to the strategy it doesn't mean that they're using some sort of third party program.

Also, as a player in Noba I'm pretty sure you've found before that Chasers need high ASPD in order to land an FSK + Masq with ease and almost no delay. Why are you ignoring these things to make such accusations?  /hmm

Like, have you ever thought it was just high ASPD + shortcut commands?
For the love of Ragnarok Online!

Offline Baldy

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #5 on: Nov 01, 2017, 02:56 PM »
I wont argue with you, because i cannot make you change your opinion.
I'm not new, im a veteran as well, i know its aspd based, i know the hotkeys, i know alt + m, i can spam it as well, but that speed is macro.
If you manage to make smash 32x binginbg and 16x back slide in less than 2.7 seconds, pls record it for me.
I doubt you can push even one button 16 times in a second. and to do that you need two buttons. and not just smashing, aiming it.
FSK and igno has nothing to do with my question and the video, i dont know why are you throwing it up? i could just throw up snap, since its aspd based as well, but has nothing to do with my question.

Offline speedburner

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #6 on: Nov 01, 2017, 03:23 PM »
but has nothing to do with my question.

But your question was

What you guys think about this?

Innomite thought you might've been missing the fact that high ASPD will let you Backslide faster and multi-buttoning /bingbang can let you rotate sharply almost instantly, and Chasers will always have high ASPD due to their standard builds.

Though I think we both know you weren't looking for opinions and thoughts, but rather validation to justify your continued disparaging reviews on the server.

Potato already said how this is attainable without any third-party macros or tools:
Anyway, the guy probably just used quickspells (/q2) by spamming the mouse wheel and then spamming a macro with alt-m to rotate (with /bangbang). I can reach close to that speed myself and I'm not trying really hard, and I'm not cheating or using macros. So yeah, it's hard to prove he did something illegal here. It is suspicious, sure, but imagine if you got banned for that when you did nothing wrong, that's even worse.

Edit: Lol yeah, if you bind two alt-m with /bangbang + spam mouse wheel, that's getting somewhat easy to achieve.

Which you even later admit is 90% reproducible:

(with /q2 and wheel you can do it with ~90% accurate rate

Is it so hard to believe that with a bit more practice you can match this 100%? You're already 90% of the way there for crying out loud. Yet somehow it still must be cheating and admin neglect.

The thing, what pissed me off, is the head gm's first reaction. "I can easly do it myself as well" <-- This is slapping on your face, like-> I' know its AHK but i wont do s***.

I'm pretty sure he's saying he can easily do it himself, as in, he can easily legitimately do it himself without any outside tools. Don't see how this is a slap in your face so much as it is disagreeing this video, that is at the very least 90% reproducible, is somehow definitive proof of foul play.

Why should anyone have to prove to you that they can play well after a clear path to doing it legitimately has already been presented? Why don't you try it yourself and practice it some instead of instantly thinking such a feat is impossible? Just mash 2-3 buttons on your keyboard in one second and see how many presses you managed and I'm honestly going to say it'll be more than 32 times.

Offline Baldy

Re: Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #7 on: Nov 02, 2017, 04:27 AM »
I'm honestly going to say it'll be more than 32 times.
Sorry, thats not enough for me. I need a provement, words, are just words.

Offline ytivel

Re: Re: Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #8 on: Nov 03, 2017, 01:59 AM »
Sorry, thats not enough for me. I need a provement, words, are just words.
Isn't your only proof of him using ahk just a video and your words?
It already doesn't prove much because GM's have already said they could do it themselves.

I'm not really sure how autistic you can get.
The backslide thing can be reproduced by anyone, if you actually know how to rebind the macro keys and your hotkey bar.
I'm not sure where you get the numbers where the guy has to press bingbing/bangbang 32 times and backslide 16 times.
Saying he did it perfectly when he clearly messed up doing it too.
There's also the comment you included about doridori and backslide. Can you actually see what you've typed?
For example changing /bangbang to 1 and backslide to 2. You ONLY have to press 2 buttons to reproduce it with high ASPD.
But hey why listen to me right? Because it seems you're dead set on believing that he uses AHK because you don't know how to reproduce it; therefore, thinking it must be impossible. Despite all replies on the thread saying that it's reproduce-able and you getting a reply from a GM that they could do it themselves easily. You've already agreed with a guy in an earlier reply that it's possible to reach with but you kinda just ignored it and said that it wasn't the point.

All this just makes me think you're
Asking for opinions and not actually listening to others saying that it's not AHK.
« Last Edit: Nov 03, 2017, 07:24 AM by yC »

Offline Baldy

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #9 on: Nov 03, 2017, 02:45 AM »
Isn't your only proof of him using ahk just a video and your words?
It already doesn't prove much because GM's have  already said they could do it themselves.

Quote
Sorry, thats not enough for me. I need a provement, words, are just words.

Did you really read, or i dont know.
As i've said, words are just words.

Quote
I'm not really sure how autistic you can get.
The backslide thing can be reproduced by anyone, if you actually know how to rebind the macro keys and your hotkey bar.
I'm not sure where you get the numbers where the guy has to press bingbing/bangbang 32 times and backslide 16 times.
For example changing /bangbang to 1 and backslide to 2. You ONLY have to press 2 buttons to reproduce it with high ASPD.

As ive said, i need a video, not words. Since as you said, the GM's SAID they could do it themselves.
As second, if you are not educated enough, to count, whats happening in the video, or got no idea how to count from one to 48, while checking the time, dont call me retarded. Nor authistic. Did i hurt you, or anyone? I dont get it why you take it personal.
As i've told already, its not about binding them to hotkeys, its about the speed, where you spam 2x A and 1x B button in summe of 48 times in less than 2.7sec.
Quote
I'm not new, im a veteran as well, i know its aspd based, i know the hotkeys, i know alt + m, i can spam it as well, but that speed is macro.
Quote
I doubt you can push even one button 16 times in a second. and to do that you need two buttons. and not just smashing, aiming it.
Your post had no sense at all, all what you said, have been said before. And i had my answer, you told nothing new, except the authistic and retard part.

I've made a 67Point Review for NovaRO and this topic, and suddenly so many new RMS forum accounts, and calling me retarded. It's not weird at all.
Anyways, im not gonna answer further, because i got what i wanted. Opinions. And i feels like the continue would be only TT, not from my side.~
Have a nice Day!

Offline Zereges

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #10 on: Nov 03, 2017, 05:53 AM »
Answer 1,
I myself can press a single key at least two times per finger snap as per the video, and quite easily.
My mentiot to this: he is making over 4 backslide around that statue in 2,7 seconds. that requires 32x usage of bingbing and 16x usage of backslide.
                              Aka 48x key stroke in 2,7 seconds [2 doridori 1 back slide exactly, cant mis-push keys!]. Do you really can do it? is this possible?
I've downloaded the video, analyzed it frame by frame and I don't know how you got to 4 times around the pole in 2.7s.
Code: [Select]
3.733s (#112), right side, beginning of first turn
4.733s (#142), right side, beginning of second turn
6.067s (#182), botton side (he missed the pole), beginning of third turn
7.6s (#228), right side, beginning of fourth turn
8.6s (#258), right side, beginning of fifth turn
9.6s (#288), he's not there, because he missed (or ran away)
So he does pretty much one turn per second, which is 8x /bangbang and 8x backslide, and he is nowhere near perfect accuracy.


If you manage to make smash 32x binginbg and 16x back slide in less than 2.7 seconds, pls record it for me.
I've never seen this kind of fun, never used /bangbang as a hotkey, have mouse with stupid mousewheel and refused to train it, but still made a video.
It's nowhere near that fast. I did 6 turns in 10.5s, which is almost 75% slower and with even lower accuracy, but still that would be proof to me, that your video shows something possible without any sort of help from software.
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Offline Innomite

Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #11 on: Nov 04, 2017, 01:25 PM »
Hey Baldy, why did you take down your video?  /heh
For the love of Ragnarok Online!

Offline Baldy

Re: Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #12 on: Nov 04, 2017, 02:01 PM »
Hey Baldy, why did you take down your video?  /heh
Because im almost convinced.
https://youtu.be/ykW1U89TWOU
https://youtu.be/70n41doY_2o
« Last Edit: Nov 04, 2017, 06:50 PM by Baldy »

Offline Blinzer

Re: Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #13 on: Nov 06, 2017, 03:43 PM »
Even starcraft pro players (arguably the fastest) can "only" average 300~500 APM (and it's mostly spam).
That's 5 to 8 clicks per second. To do that backsliding at the speed he does, he'd have to be twice as fast (~16 clicks per second). Not to mention the accuracy.

Macros if done properly are impossible to tell from real players. Some can be that fast (190 aspd is 5 attacks/skills per second) but it's hard to consistently and accurately do it.
It's sort of a gray area. Even if you did stop program macros, there's keyboards and mouses that come with their own (even controllers with things like auto-fire).

Is it legal? Depends on the server. From personal experience though, pretty much everyone uses them. WoE as it is today would be impossible without macros/RCX/auto-pot (some argue WoE is funnier/better that way but numbers say otherwise though).

I think using these sort of programs drastically reduces the skill ceiling. You only need to press 1 or 2 buttons and you do everything at 100% efficiency while also surviving for the longest time possible. It also makes some classes/builds simply not viable in this environment.
It does, however, even the play field (IF everyone uses them), for obvious reasons.

the ignorance is strong in this one. even your average ffr player has WAY more apm than what you just described as arguably the fastest. please do your research in the future instead of being basic and setting the bar so low for the rest of us.

Offline XicoR4

Re: Re: Re: What do you think about this?
« Reply #14 on: Nov 06, 2017, 06:57 PM »
the ignorance is strong in this one. even your average ffr player has WAY more apm than what you just described as arguably the fastest. please do your research in the future instead of being basic and setting the bar so low for the rest of us.

Sigh, I compared it to starcraft because both it and ragnarok are similar. You use one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard (and it has similar key presses, for most people). Should have mentioned it, my bad, sorry.
But sure, if you place both hands on the keyboard and just click-spam with any amount of dexterity you'll reach much higher APM. It also depends what the game counts as an "action" (in starcraft setting camera hotkeys doesn't count for instance, there's also a mismatch between game and real speed and there's latency).
I also never said it was impossible to be faster, hence the arguably. There's also hardly any games that track APM and display it so you can know.
Point is APM doesn't even matter that much, it's more about accuracy and being able to maintain that speed. Btw, we have seen starcraft pros hit the 4 digit APM mark several times.

Because you mention ffr (I'm assuming finger finger or flash flash revolution or whatever it was called?), most songs in the hardest difficulty have between 10~16 notes per second (or used to). Easily achievable with 8 fingers on a keyboard.
Related: If my memory serves me right, during AGDQ 2016, Staiain in Step Mania just hovered around around 14~20 notes per second, peaking at 27ish. (skimmed the video) He's among the fastest. He had to take breaks between (under 3 minutes) songs. It's all muscle memory (he doesn't have to adapt). Not to mention the switches on his keyboard respond to the lightest tap. Also, no latency.

I also assumed Baldy was right in counting the backslide timings, I just watched the video once. It seemed suspicious, but it's by all means possible.