Soul Linkers.

Started by Neku Sakuraba, Jul 31, 2013, 07:25 PM

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Neku Sakuraba

So I've been to a couple of servers where this was suggested, one of them actually had it (I'll explain later), and from what I've seen everyone is against the idea. The suggestion was to let Soul Linkers use their Es-Type skills in BG / PvP (obviously excluding WoE to keep classes doing what they were meant to).

I've only seen this on mid rate servers (high rates and above would probably accept the idea since those servers are already OP and easy going).

My main question is... what do you guys think about allowing Es-Skills in BG / PvP? I really don't see how it's OP or why people are so hardcore against the idea, especially with the proper evidence given to increase Soul Linker's chances of having a battle option.

Top reasons I've seen people use:
- The damage is too strong.
- Esma can have it's element changed, making it extremely OP.
- Esma can be spammed VERY fast.
- Eswoo would be OP.
- Estun would stun everyone (depending on what people play. I play with no stun resist gears because I normally kill people before I stun).
- Changing RO Game mechanics.
- Linkers have Kaite / Kaupe which are very strong coupled with offensive magic.

While those are good reasons (depending on who gives them; some people just don't like magic classes and would prefer to lolzura strike everything), they can be easily countered.

I spoke out for Linkers on one server that kept b**** because no one would play a Linker in BG. Since I wanted to play a PvP Linker, I decided to vocalize my opinions at this opportunity. Sadly, the community was full of completely ignorant people who were set on not changing mechanics.

My reasons:
- If the damage could be considered "too strong", then perhaps some testing could be done to reduce the damage by a certain percentage against players.
- Although Esma can have it's element changed, some servers have elemental resist items and armor swapping is common. If it's a matter of damage, see first suggestion.
- Esma requires Estin / Estun (or any other Es-Type skill I believe) to be used before Esma can be used. Although the cooldown is a bit fast, you'd still deal more damage with a faster DPS with a High Wizard using Jupitel Thunder (although that element is forced).
- Eswoo would need fixed, obviously. I suggested making it 1-2/5 the duration like Boss Monsters. It'd still wear off and even a Champ / High Priest could slow you down more with Decrease Agility...
- Estun would need fixed. I suggested a 1-2 second stun with a set % chance of stunning (maybe 10-30%, which is completely fair because of how a BG Rod can stun at 5% for 5 seconds tops I believe). The original skill description says it stuns for 2 seconds anyway, so it's really not OP considering if a person is being hit with Esma they'll be able to pot and fight again.
- This I couldn't argue against. It's really up to the Admins, but the community really shouldn't have a say in it, especially if it's for BG / PvP purposes. As long as it doesn't interfere with WoE, who cares? (This is my personal opinion.)
- Although Linkers have Kaite / Kaupe, those skills have cool downs and cast times which can't be easily spammed. Unless Linkers hack the game (or have another Linker help them), they can't focus on spamming Kaite / Kaupe and continue attacking, which provides a decent balance between their skill usage.
- Linkers aren't Rebirth Classes and therefore can't wear Rebirth equipment which could be considered OP (Proxy Skin, Diabolus Boots / Robe, Valkyrie Armor, Orlean's Gloves, etc.) and need to stick to BG Equipment and Glove [1] and whatever headgears are available. They also lack stat bonuses that Rebirth Classes get.
- Removed reason. (Did some testing and realized my mistake)

** I didn't mention anything about Eske / Eska because those skills aren't really important (depending on the person). I find them to be trivial and therefore didn't include them in the Es-Skill list. That's a different story entirely.


One server I played on was a Mid Rate Pre-Renewal server (with Third Classes) and they had a Trans WoE. It wasn't a true WoE server and Trans WoE was definitely different. Not only that, the server had donations that gave +7 / +3 stats for upper / mid headgears, respectively. Although people didn't always play Linkers, I've dealt with a few on my HW and their damage was easily pot-able . This alone convinced me that with OP headgears and Zakudam Cards (+10% magic damage to Demihumans. Most magic classes ran Rod [4] with them), Linkers still didn't have a complete hold against people, but they definitely could pose a little bit of a threat like other people. And yet... people are still worried Linkers would be too strong on mid rate servers with LEGIT items? Please.

I'd like to see what everyone else thinks about this matter. Offer any comments, suggestions, arguments that you want.


Fruit Pie~

Too custom.

FAKE EDIT : Alright, lemme put at least some effort into this. Soul Linkers invalidate every other magic damage class in the game in a small scale PVP setting, not that they were valid to begin with. SLs already have the combination of moderate HP for a caster, impossibly good defensive spells and very decent support. Adding the highest single target DPS among mages (however much that's worth) along with a couple of very hard disables to that list would be quite insane.

They also don't need Proxy or Tidal/Wool or whatever you full +10 MLG yolo swag trans kids use nowadays. A +4 BG set is basically the most powerful PVP set in the game, it's piss easy to acquire and can be used by everyone except, I think, Novices. Saying they can't use the "good gear" is like saying Creators aren't that great because they technically have limited ammunition.

On minor notes, Kaupe has no cooldown - if you have 150 DEX and you can dance/hack properly, you can spam it as fast as you want. Also, Eske or Eska (the quad damage one) would become the ultimate BG griefing tool. Not that it would be a bad thing - I'd totally play SL if it meant I could ruin the day for my own team of BG pubs.

RoseTea

You have a bit of an attitude problem.  The SLs you were talking to were b****"?  Really?  Because people didn't agree with you on your ideas, they're completely ignorant?  Are you typing that out so we gain sympathy points for you / think less of that server, or what?

I think your bullet point of reasonings demonstrate a critical lack of understanding about RO's math, how PVP/BG overall work, and how the math behind Soul Linkers can lead to absurd situations when they're applied to PvP.  In addition, your anecdotes don't hold much weight on their own (someone said nobody would play BG as a linker?  I've done that very thing!).

You are greatly underestimating the amount of considerations when balancing something like this, although I think you hint at some with your first three points.  Damage is not the only way to balance Esma.  You can balance it through delay, the fact you need to use a skill before you can use it, the fact it can freely change elements (with no delay!) and its extremely fast cast time and lack of delay in general.  Do you balance it similar to a bolter prof?  A JTing high wizard?  Why for any of those angles?  Does damage have to be reduced if cast time or cast delay are increased?  Are Estun and Estin fine as they are, even though Estin would be practically worthless in BG/WoE?  If those two are changed, what else is needed to be changed to keep them in line?  If HWs can already out-DPS SLs in JT, then what's to be changed at all, is that unsatisfactory for some reason?

There are many, many dials that can be turned here, and each one has an effect on PvP and, yes, WoE.  "As long as it doesn't interfere with WoE"?  What kind of nonsense are you typing here?  Of course it's going to interfere with WoE if it changes PvP in general.  Unless you want SLs to only be able to do this in certain areas and not others, in which case, why even bother with all of this in the first place except to satisfy the one-in-a-hundred people who want to play a specific gimmick in an arbitrarily restricted fashion?

You also, in what I believe demonstrates a lack of knowledge about Soul Linkers in general, dismiss Eske and Eska as trivial.  I'm not sure how you could find a +300% ATK with no practical downside to be trivial, but I think I'll let that speak for itself.

Linkers can, in fact get to 150 dex.  Here's a basic proof to show you have no idea what you're talking about:
http://calcx.wushuang.ws/?caRbdaYabababbLabababaaabaafafafafe5aaaaaaaaacGaad5aaeupFbgfbaafhaafwbMfwbMaaaaagaaaaaabkaaaaaaaaabaaacuaaaaHaRaa

Add a +10 DEX food and you have 150.  This is a rough version because I did this in about a minute and I don't know off-hand all the possible ways to increase DEX, but there you go.  Entirely through items you should be able to find on any server.  With instant-cast and no delay for Kaupe/Kaite, a Soul Linker can be theoretically immortal.  This is before we give them any offensive options!  By the way, isn't playing a minimal-offense, maximum self-defense and support character in PvP settings interesting and exciting in its own, unique way?  Why try and make them a magical nuker class like the game already has and ignore all the other gimmicks they provide?

I find it hilarious that you dismiss not only the best equipment a Soul Linker can wear (BG Equipment) as something they "need to stick to", but also ignore that BG equipment is perhaps the best overall PvP equpiment for ANY class.  The bonus to stat points are largely irrelevant: you want Dex and Vit and you can easily get both of those to 99 if you pleased.  For a PvPing bolter linker things might get a little more hazy, but you have more than enough stat points to get what you need, plus even a little for luxury.

You haven't really presented anything that explains a good, solid, mathematical reason or method for them to be introduced into PvP.  Largely just a rant because, I can guess, that the server you talked about the start of your post didn't agree with your little idea and you needed to vent.

Triper

The only problem that I see is that it's a bit too custom, as Fruit Pie~ said, and that some of their skills are aren't really balanced by default.

◙ Esma is a super spammable skill even with estin/estun before. The way the dmg works at pvm, if simply added to pvp, it wouldn't be far from 5k dmg per Esma. Add a lex, the ability of changing element vs the enemy and this could probably one-shot a ton of people and I think that's the main problem with this.
◙ Eswoo would only be bad because of the smaller sprite[would ruin the aiming by a ton in a mob of players], aside that is ok[we've already slow grace, can't be worse].
◙ Estun I doubt that would be a prob. People use -100% stun gear for ages, wouldn't make any difference.
◙ Eske/Eska would need to be either nerved or kept disabled vs players, it's just too OP. 90 mdef+being able to use skills would make lp battles be a joke. +300% atk would turn snipers into Robocops.

Saying this, I think that SLs are already OP Supporters. They've moderate HP with the ability to give good buffs and are able to dodge death. Adding the fact that SLs don't really need much gear to be half decent, they're really good so I don't think that this is something really needed.

And yes, I played one, at BG, a couple of times too. I found it funny that when I started playing it, everybody was "Meh, a soul linker, what a crap" and later everybody were hating and wanted one at their team.

Neku Sakuraba

#4
Hm. Well, where do I begin.

Quote from: RoseTea on Jul 31, 2013, 09:04 PM
You have a bit of an attitude problem.  The SLs you were talking to were b****"?  Really?  Because people didn't agree with you on your ideas, they're completely ignorant?  Are you typing that out so we gain sympathy points for you / think less of that server, or what?

I suppose my attitude isn't the best, but that comes from being around different types of people.
- What I meant was that the people of that server were complaining, not the Linkers. In fact, the only people who would bother playing Linker agreed with me (aside from other adventurous members of the community). I didn't even mention the server either so... there's nothing to mention. The server doesn't need any more bad publicity as it is, but this is just from my experience on this particular server.
- People are entitled to their own way of thinking, but the only reason I say that the community didn't agree and that they were ignorant is because that most of them were. A high percentage of the Asian community are players and they mostly played Champs. In fact, 55%+ of the BG / PvP community were Champ players, the other players were either Creators or Professors because people would rather use Asura instead of playing another class to provide balance and diversity. This isn't new for RO servers but it's very depressing.
- I suppose I do want sympathy in some way, but I'd like to be validated as well because I'm definitely not the only person who feels this way.

I think your bullet point of reasonings demonstrate a critical lack of understanding about RO's math, how PVP/BG overall work, and how the math behind Soul Linkers can lead to absurd situations when they're applied to PvP.  In addition, your anecdotes don't hold much weight on their own (someone said nobody would play BG as a linker?  I've done that very thing!).

I was never good with RO mathematics... I still don't really care for them either. I'd rather play the game and learn the history. I suppose my anecdotes don't help, but those are the situations I've been in.
- It wasn't just "someone", it was the entire community. They were upset because no one would play Linker on that server. Even though you may have done it, other people haven't on that server and they didn't want to yet they complained because no one would. Champs > All.

You are greatly underestimating the amount of considerations when balancing something like this, although I think you hint at some with your first three points.  Damage is not the only way to balance Esma.  You can balance it through delay, the fact you need to use a skill before you can use it, the fact it can freely change elements (with no delay!) and its extremely fast cast time and lack of delay in general.  Do you balance it similar to a bolter prof?  A JTing high wizard?  Why for any of those angles?  Does damage have to be reduced if cast time or cast delay are increased?  Are Estun and Estin fine as they are, even though Estin would be practically worthless in BG/WoE?  If those two are changed, what else is needed to be changed to keep them in line?  If HWs can already out-DPS SLs in JT, then what's to be changed at all, is that unsatisfactory for some reason?

I know a lot of testing would need to be done in order to make sure that Linkers would be balanced. I emphasized that when I made the suggestion on "the" server. I suggested the damage factor because that was what people were worried about above all else. I do agree that the other angles you pointed out would be great ways to look at the situation, although most people wouldn't concern themselves with that. People (from my experiences) care about damage done more than anything else.

- Actually I wanna edit this. I completely forgot something. Don't forget that BG follows the WoE conditions: 40% damage reduction. Figure that into the damage as well, and it provides another angle. PvP is a different story, but that's always been non-restricted so...

There are many, many dials that can be turned here, and each one has an effect on PvP and, yes, WoE.  "As long as it doesn't interfere with WoE"?  What kind of nonsense are you typing here?  Of course it's going to interfere with WoE if it changes PvP in general.  Unless you want SLs to only be able to do this in certain areas and not others, in which case, why even bother with all of this in the first place except to satisfy the one-in-a-hundred people who want to play a specific gimmick in an arbitrarily restricted fashion?

I mention WoE because I want that to be taken out of the equation. This is mostly just for fun, but a different kind of fun.I'm not sure how I'd explain it. It's mostly up to preference I suppose.
I wouldn't mind the use of Es-Skills in BG or PvP. It'd make things interesting. WoE however I would not condone any changes (no one else would either, even the supporters).
Why bother going through the trouble? It was mostly a suggestion for the community to get different classes to be played. As I said, the community was complaining that there were no Linkers in BG, so I offered this suggestion. I don't expect everyone and their grandmother to play Soul Linkers, but it would definitely appeal to a large amount of people (specifically magic users / Linker lovers who would like a little versatility aside from just pure support. That doesn't mean that they can't support, but this gives a different option).

You also, in what I believe demonstrates a lack of knowledge about Soul Linkers in general, dismiss Eske and Eska as trivial.  I'm not sure how you could find a +300% ATK with no practical downside to be trivial, but I think I'll let that speak for itself.

I dismiss Eske and Eska because of how strong they are and how they could negatively affect the Linker's team. As you said, +300% with no practical downside... that would be trivial because no one on a Linker's team would like him/her to go around buffing the other team. That would kill BG, and people wouldn't like anyone to use those skills, therefore making them trivial in use even though they're definitely significant. (I never wanted those to be added because of the imbalance issues.)

Linkers can, in fact get to 150 dex.  Here's a basic proof to show you have no idea what you're talking about:

Add a +10 DEX food and you have 150.  This is a rough version because I did this in about a minute and I don't know off-hand all the possible ways to increase DEX, but there you go.  Entirely through items you should be able to find on any server.  With instant-cast and no delay for Kaupe/Kaite, a Soul Linker can be theoretically immortal.  This is before we give them any offensive options!  By the way, isn't playing a minimal-offense, maximum self-defense and support character in PvP settings interesting and exciting in its own, unique way?  Why try and make them a magical nuker class like the game already has and ignore all the other gimmicks they provide?

I will state that I was entirely wrong here. I'm not sure what I was thinking, especially since I've played Linkers with 150 Dex. I guess I wasn't paying attention or thinking about something else. I was wrong and it was a mistake.

Kaite and Kaupe (depending on Dex) have a delay, but not necessarily with aftercast. With about 145-6 Dex, the casting time is still a little bit long which, if you're under fire by people it would definitely take a little bit to recast (mostly Kaite because Kaupe cast time was always small).

Why play a class that only buffs in PvP? It really defeats the purpose... The only reason is mostly for trying something new. Of course it's a completely different way to play the game, but isn't that fun as well? I've tried Bolter Linker but that was highly unsuccessful, even with damage dealer gears.

I find it hilarious that you dismiss not only the best equipment a Soul Linker can wear (BG Equipment) as something they "need to stick to", but also ignore that BG equipment is perhaps the best overall PvP equpiment for ANY class.  The bonus to stat points are largely irrelevant: you want Dex and Vit and you can easily get both of those to 99 if you pleased.  For a PvPing bolter linker things might get a little more hazy, but you have more than enough stat points to get what you need, plus even a little for luxury.

The best equipment for a PvP Soul Linker is obviously the BG Set. For PvM matters, it's not the best (except for killing magic-versatile monsters with Kaite). BG equipment was the best armor for PvP situations but since Satan Morroc has been around you'll always see people trying to get Diabolus equipment and Proxy Skins. Since Linkers can't use those they are defaulted to the BG Set (which is not a hindrance in any way) but compared to what Trans Classes are allowed it makes the BG Set look a little... eh. Flimsy. I would use the same gear set on most of my characters (aside from the ones that needed BG sets like Clown, Gypsy, Linker, etc.): Proxy, Diabolus Boots, Diabolus Robe, Orlean's Gloves and the like. Those gears make a lot of classes a lot stronger because of their effects. (I also see many Creators in BG / PvP with their Homunculi. I don't know what servers use to default for Homunculi races but the one's I've played on consider Vanilmirth to be Formless which would completely ruin anything in a BG Set. This is negated sort of by Kaite because of reflected Bolts but offensively they'd take your HP down, especially with Acid Demonstration being aimed at you as well, forcing you to Kaite / Kaupe to avoid damage and re-pot.)

Even for a Bolter Linker they still lack stat points besides getting 99 Int / Dex. I'm able to focus 9 levels into one stat which I guess is dependent on what you care for: Vit or Agi. I've done this build before with Agi after listening to someone to ignore Vit.

You haven't really presented anything that explains a good, solid, mathematical reason or method for them to be introduced into PvP.  Largely just a rant because, I can guess, that the server you talked about the start of your post didn't agree with your little idea and you needed to vent.


I guess my reasons aren't mathematical but it's not like they're complete crap. I understand that extensive testing is require for this along with several test runs to balance things out completely.

I guess it's somewhat of a rant and vent excuse, although I did want other people's opinions on the matter of introducing it or how they felt about the subject. Even though the server I mentioned denied the idea, it can hardly be considered "little" for how much preparation would need to be invested in it. I had a suitable amount of backers for my suggestion on that server, but it was ultimately rejected because of "changing game mechanics" which they were religious about and that people felt it was "too scary" to try. In fact, they gave less reasons for changing it (aside from the ones I already mentioned and a few you mentioned). You've been the only person to actually give me decent feedback on this subject, which I thank you for.


RaimSuriom

How to fix Linkers:

-Let us use Ka skills on other players without the link. Having two Linkers in a party is already hard enough to get.
-Change the link to do something like allowing them to use the Taekwon kicks again