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Author Topic: Crit builds in todays RO  (Read 5890 times)

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Offline horo

Crit builds in todays RO
« on: Apr 02, 2009, 11:07 am »
Eversince 5 enemy luck = -1 crit (iirc) and the consequent drastic increase in enemy luck, crit builds have all but vanished from the classes once viable for such (mostly Sin, Knight, Blacksmith, Hunter). With crit builds, you mostly forfeit using direct attack skills due to lack of dex, so there is no incentive to play them nowadays.

I'm trying to set up a server that makes more than the one cookie-cutter build per class useful to play, since I find the amount of crit equip and cards currently in-game a waste to be overlooked.

So I've been considering 10 enemy luck = -1 crit. I've yet to test if this makes Luck Hunters and Crit Sins too good suddenly.

I would like to hear your opinions about crit in RO nowadays, and what you would change about it, if anything.

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Offline A92FL0163

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #1 on: Apr 02, 2009, 11:59 am »
Good on Mobs/Emperiums, a little too messy to use agaisn't players since you need to keep hitting him on melee and skills nowadays deal more burst damage, which is perfect for PvP. I've never ever heard about that 5 enemies luck = -1 crit, maybe I haven't played enough on low rates :B

Offline Dean Stark

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #2 on: Apr 02, 2009, 12:23 pm »
I have to agree that ppl are more on burst damage. Nowadays RO is only about WoE(according to "pros", aka e-tards, who tell you that "if you don't WoE, quit/gtfo RO!"). So I guess the whole MvP/PvM scene has seen better days... Look around you, it's usually about WoE/PvP. If you also take time to understand what RO is now, you'd know that it's all about ego-boosting rather than this thing called "fun".

As for crit builds, you could go for making stats like *2 luck = 1 crit* or something. Though even if you did do something about adjusting crits, would it really appeal to ppl? Ever since crits have stopped being mentioned, no one plays w/ crits anymore.

Offline Sarin

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #3 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:06 pm »
RO is totally off balance...if you are starting your own server, it might be worth doing some extensive rebalancing. But that would require massive amount of brainstorming, experience and testing...
Oh, luck is not the reason. It's because when you get around 60 vit, ranked pots and full reductions, you can outpot any crit char. So nowadays people rely on burst oneshotting to make the kills.
I'll toss my basic idea about how RO should be altered. Make statuses less curable, put some delay on pots and play with skills a bit...for exmaple making EDP make only 250% dmg, decrease Asura and well, all oneshotting skills damage, and play a bit with hit vs. flee rate to make flee builds viable at WoE...or maybe just decrease flee penalties for WoE. And so on, a few more changes but that'll require testing.

Frankly, I've never heard of people putting more than just a few spare points to luk, unless making a "for fun" crit build. It seems more like highratish speciality.

Offline Dean Stark

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #4 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:17 pm »
for exmaple making EDP make only 250% dmg

Didn't he say that he was not gonna put trans classes on his server?

Offline Sarin

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #5 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:31 pm »
Not in a post here, if there is another about it, I haven't seen it.

Offline Dean Stark

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #6 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:34 pm »
Ehh... I knew I should've posted a link.

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/soap-opera//avoiding-advanced-classes-to-balance-a-server/0/

There we go.

...Strange. The link says "Soap Opera" even when the thread isn't even in it.
« Last Edit: Apr 02, 2009, 02:37 pm by Dean Stark »

Offline A92FL0163

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #7 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:37 pm »
No matter how much you try to keep things balanced, it can never be archieved, we already had a thread about that.
MouRO also had that problem, and it is still unsolved. It is way better use the Scissors Beat Paper that beat Stone kind of balance.

Back on track to crit, what would I change it... Make it bypass phen, make it bypass endure, if your weapon have a status inflicting card, it effect to apply is doubled when you crit, and uh, even if OMG LOL OP, every crit has a chance to inflict the same statuses as Joint Beat.

Well, this is what I would do if I owned a server.

Also, I guess you mean every 5 enemy luck, he get 1 PDodge, and 1Pdodge = -1 to get critically hit, well, that would mean that people would have to invest some stats in luck to avoid getting too critied. Maybe you could make PDodge like a Crit only reducement, for example, ever 5 luck, you receive 1% less damage on a crit.  Don't be afraid to test out other meanings to fix crit, you can add them on skills, as WoW do, or make them as I said above, it might look overpowered, but since you will have to fight agaisn't someone without burst, it WILL take time, which mean, enough time for them to do anything, from potting, to backslide/running.


Offline horo

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #8 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:51 pm »
Though even if you did do something about adjusting crits, would it really appeal to ppl? Ever since crits have stopped being mentioned, no one plays w/ crits anymore.
Didn't he say that he was not gonna put trans classes on his server?
There is such a great deal of good crit equip about that I hope for people to rediscover crit builds and the fun putting one together can be. Since I'm indeed not going to have advanced classes, it does away with a lot of builds centered on their skills, so that's one less problem.


RO is totally off balance...if you are starting your own server, it might be worth doing some extensive rebalancing. But that would require massive amount of brainstorming, experience and testing...
Oh, luck is not the reason. It's because when you get around 60 vit, ranked pots and full reductions, you can outpot any crit char. So nowadays people rely on burst oneshotting to make the kills.
I'll toss my basic idea about how RO should be altered. Make statuses less curable, put some delay on pots and play with skills a bit...for exmaple making EDP make only 250% dmg, decrease Asura and well, all oneshotting skills damage, and play a bit with hit vs. flee rate to make flee builds viable at WoE...or maybe just decrease flee penalties for WoE. And so on, a few more changes but that'll require testing.

Frankly, I've never heard of people putting more than just a few spare points to luk, unless making a "for fun" crit build. It seems more like highratish speciality.
I guess I won't find out if the amount of brainstorming, experience and testing I'm putting into this will pay off until the very end. Right now I hope to gather players opinions on RMS on matters I'm unsure about as to ensure it's to the overall liking of a potential playerbase at least. I'm splitting these up into separate threads as to not make discussion too bloated.
I haven't yet considered changing status effects, and luckily one-shot skills aren't too common among 2nd classes. We've already a pot delay in place to prevent easy outtanking, and it works great so far.


No matter how much you try to keep things balanced, it can never be archieved, we already had a thread about that.
MouRO also had that problem, and it is still unsolved. It is way better use the Scissors Beat Paper that beat Stone kind of balance.

Back on track to crit, what would I change it... Make it bypass phen, make it bypass endure, if your weapon have a status inflicting card, it effect to apply is doubled when you crit, and uh, even if OMG LOL OP, every crit has a chance to inflict the same statuses as Joint Beat.

Well, this is what I would do if I owned a server.

Also, I guess you mean every 5 enemy luck, he get 1 PDodge, and 1Pdodge = -1 to get critically hit, well, that would mean that people would have to invest some stats in luck to avoid getting too critied. Maybe you could make PDodge like a Crit only reducement, for example, ever 5 luck, you receive 1% less damage on a crit.  Don't be afraid to test out other meanings to fix crit, you can add them on skills, as WoW do, or make them as I said above, it might look overpowered, but since you will have to fight agaisn't someone without burst, it WILL take time, which mean, enough time for them to do anything, from potting, to backslide/running.

I've no illusions of pleasing everybody anymore regarding game balance, but I will try my best and hopefully it'll please enough people to sustain a server. Those changes I would initially consider overpowered, as luck hunters themselves could probably outdamage a lot of classes with the existing pot delay already. The idea is primarily to make crit builds more viable in PvM, as enemy luck in PvP is very rarely a factor, but I consider the amount of luck Gravity gave to almost any enemy far too great.

I thought that, for example, Jokers 175 luck meant -35 to your crit stat, as enemies don't have perfect dodge. I don't want to force builds not focused on crit to stat luck, as it seems that would really screw up most defensive builds.

Offline A92FL0163

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #9 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:56 pm »
I've no illusions of pleasing everybody anymore regarding game balance, but I will try my best and hopefully it'll please enough people to sustain a server. Those changes I would initially consider overpowered, as luck hunters themselves could probably outdamage a lot of classes with the existing pot delay already. The idea is primarily to make crit builds more viable in PvM, as enemy luck in PvP is very rarely a factor, but I consider the amount of luck Gravity gave to almost any enemy far too great.

I thought that, for example, Jokers 175 luck meant -35 to your crit stat, as enemies don't have perfect dodge. I don't want to force builds not focused on crit to stat luck, as it seems that would really screw up most defensive builds.
Oh, I was thinking it was more PvP Wise ^_^;
Well, I don't think it is underpower at PvM, seriously, some mobs have a lot of Def and pass through it without a problem is already good, along with the fact that it also ignore dodges (Mobs such as Anopheles).

Offline Sarin

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #10 on: Apr 02, 2009, 02:58 pm »
oh, I can toss in a lots of ideas. The question is, will they work? If you want to make a totally new balance in RO, you'll need some sort of test server.

Offline LemonCrosswalk

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #11 on: Apr 02, 2009, 03:17 pm »
It would be interesting to see, but from my experience of seeing people trying to balance RO, they make a new hole that leads something new to be even more overpowered than before.

Offline horo

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #12 on: Apr 02, 2009, 03:28 pm »
Well, I don't think it is underpower at PvM, seriously, some mobs have a lot of Def and pass through it without a problem is already good, along with the fact that it also ignore dodges (Mobs such as Anopheles).
Most high def mobs unfortunately have high vit too, and enough luck on top of that :( . I've been making crit characters on the rms test server in an attempt to outdamage other builds, or even to create a worthwhile one, but haven't yet succeeded.

It would be interesting to see, but from my experience of seeing people trying to balance RO, they make a new hole that leads something new to be even more overpowered than before.
I'm quite scared of this happening, especially since players really don't like nerfs being introduced when they have already created a character based on the initial changes. Going to test this stuff to death definitely. Once the server is up, I don't want to have to make significant readjustments.

Offline CookieEater

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #13 on: Apr 02, 2009, 03:31 pm »
I've never ever heard about that 5 enemies luck = -1 crit, maybe I haven't played enough on low rates :B
It's commonly referred to as the 'Crit Shield' (or 'Anti Cri(s)t' if you're feeling like being funny :P). It never used to be an issue when Crit builds were viable due to a lack of monsters with high Luk and is not now because Crit builds are mostly terrible even without monsters having high Luk as you have to invest a lot in Crit/Luk which goes at the cost of ASPD/Atk and monsters are way stronger than they used to be.
B>Positive Karma, /w offers pl0x

Offline blackgh05t

Re: Crit builds in todays RO
« Reply #14 on: Apr 03, 2009, 12:00 am »
I have to agree that ppl are more on burst damage. Nowadays RO is only about WoE(according to "pros", aka e-tards, who tell you that "if you don't WoE, quit/gtfo RO!"). So I guess the whole MvP/PvM scene has seen better days... Look around you, it's usually about WoE/PvP. If you also take time to understand what RO is now, you'd know that it's all about ego-boosting rather than this thing called "fun".

More people are use burst / spike damage because its effecient and gets the job done in less time.

Most will have to MvP / PvM  to gear for WoE.  If people could bypass MvPs and a lot of PvM and still WoE at a decent level, I think some would.
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